Bachelor of aviation (flying) degree [Archive]

jieunni

29th May 2011, 05:46

I can only speak for UNSW but if you attend one of their information sessions, they do seem to emphasise that their graduates wind up in the CX cadet program, RAAF and Qantas Link.

I have three friends who are doing the course and they are enjoying it. I would personally still stay away from the aviation degree though, which I know has been discussed quite a lot. Don't get me wrong though, I would say that in the future, having a degree will be important.

Also, I think limiting your scope to just cadet programs isn't the best of ideas. You also have to take into account your long term goals and thinking about which degree will get you into a cadet program probably isn't the best way to go. I'll use myself as an example. I got accepted into ADFA as a RAAF Pilot last year for 2011, but with the degrees they offered, it didn't align with my long term goals. Sure, you may want to stay in aviation for the rest of your life, but considering the state in which Qantas is, it's probably best to have some kind of degree non-aviation related.

This is just my opinion though. Go with whatever you want to pursue.

Mr. Hat

29th May 2011, 06:12

Get a trade, don't waste your time on an aviation degree. You can still be an airline pilot without one.

mostlytossas

29th May 2011, 06:49

Agree with Mr Hat. Get a trade or some other skilled job first and do a pilots course as a side hobby at first. Then if it all turns to sh#* you still have something worth while to make a living at.
Why anyone would need a "degree" for what is essentially a blue collar job is beyond me.

hamiltonw

29th May 2011, 07:32

Thanks everyone for the advice
Will
:ok:

PPRuNeUser0163

29th May 2011, 07:38

Gonna have to disagree with the above 2 posters.

Whilst its true you dont actually need a degree, it can help and in the next few years (with Aust taking on from Americas lead where the vast majority of airline pilots have degrees and were scouted from colleges). Plus a 3 year course versus 1.5-2 years which is realistically what it takes to go from 0 to FATPL MECIR CPL or CPL/FIR is not a huge difference when your that young.

It also provides a good backup- people say theres nothing in an aviation degree- I disagree, if you do a commerce degree and you hate it there will be nothing worse. Also, key management roles plus senior pilot roles such as Check and Training, Chief Pilot, etc are filled in a large part by those with degrees as it just adds to your experience. In terms of a backup as I said, it shows you have the motivation to get through a course which is challenging and maintain a good balance between flying and the academic side of things. With the amount of management and business related courses in a Bachelor of Aviation degree nowadays you are well equipped to go into a business type field, or even gain say a commerce degree in a much shorter period of time if the unthinkable happens and you lose your medical.

Just my 0.02c , take it as you will! :)

Captain Sand Dune

29th May 2011, 08:27

I can only speak for UNSW but if you attend one of their information sessions, they do seem to emphasise that their graduates wind up in the CX cadet program, RAAF and Qantas Link.
Dunno about CX and QL, but the RAAF do not give a flying fcuk about any of these degrees. Don't waste your time and money if that's the way you want to go.

neville_nobody

29th May 2011, 08:48

they do seem to emphasise that their graduates wind up in the CX cadet program, RAAF and Qantas Link.

Of course they are going to say that!! They aren't about to advertise that their students are living in a donger in Elcho Island flying a 210 after spending $150 000 at their university now are they!!:hmm:

I went to one of these things nearly 20 years ago now, back then they were telling everyone that your first job after completing a UNSW degree was in a regional airline.....which was bollocks as you needed about 5000 hours to even apply!! Be careful they aren't claiming foreign nationals who study in Australia and get a walkup start at their national carrier in those numbers too.

So be wary what a university tells you. If one allumni gets into an airline they claim it, despite the rest battling it out in GA or quitting.

Right now I would be questioning aviation as a career at all. The Labor/Green government looks hell bent on bringing in a Carbon Tax which I think will be the beginning of the end of Aviation.

Do another degree and if things look better in a few years then get into flying.

4Greens

29th May 2011, 09:01

As far as I am aware UNSW is the only Uni that runs its own flying school. This means that the flying and academic studies are better coordinated and the Uni can ensure that the flying school standards are maintained at a high level.

peterc005

29th May 2011, 09:10

ignore what the cynics are saying.

A degree sets you apart as a professional and is pretty much a pre-requisite for a long term career at the airlines.

Also, don't underestimate the benefits of networking at places like Swinburne which can be the catalyst for entry into the airlines.

I'm a long-term private pilot who flies out of Moorabbin. I have seen many young pilots work their way up the GA ladder into the the airlines.

I have also seen many Swinburne graduates going into the airlines quite young. A young Swinburne graduate helped with the instructing for my NVFR rating. One day he was missing from YMMB. After a short stint instructing he landed a job with Virgin flying B777's internationally as an FO.

He always impressed me as being competent and professional, a very good instructor in spite of his young age. Some of this would have been natural ability, some training from Swinburne/GFS.

If I was 20 years younger I'd do an aviation degree. Great entrance to a great career.

Mr. Hat

29th May 2011, 09:15

(with Aust taking on from Americas lead where the vast majority of airline pilots have degrees and were scouted from colleges)

Oh that old chessnut! Gotta say I heard that one at the uni open day 15 years ago. Feel like getting my Guns N Roses T shirt on for the occasion! Guess what it was just total spin!

I could have spent the 3 years and several thousand dollars getting myself a plan B. I got done like a dinner. Young and Naive I was. What you will find as time passes by is that these opportunities get smaller and smaller with future Mrs hamiltonw and the rug rat talk and a 650k mortgage even if you wanted to go and get a back you won't be able to. Don't be like me: painted into a corner, at the mercy of the next big HR managers idea (deep ****). Oh well too late fingers crossed.

How many times was I asked about the degree for flying roles in 15 years? Not once. Sorry guys I'm not bagging education I'm saying do it on line whilst in GA or in an airline. Don't waste crucial time in your late teens and early twenties getting a "nice to have". Set your foundation at the start: get a trade my friend.

Arm out the window

29th May 2011, 10:05

A degree sets you apart as a professional and is pretty much a pre-requisite for a long term career at the airlines.

A prerequisite? This is total rubbish.

Wally Mk2

29th May 2011, 10:16

Gotta agree with a couple of posters in here, an aviation degree means zip at the end of the day.But having said that those that do the hiring are now these days guys/gals who have degrees themselves & still think that a degree is needed to fly a plane which most know is a myth, tick the box as has been said is all that's it's worth:-)

A trade or a skill outside of aviation as a back up is a GOOD idea. No one should these days put all their eggs into the aviation basket as it's full of egg sized holes these days.
It was once a life long great career where 'IF' you got into the airlines you had a job for life & where carried out in a pine box at retirement, now more like a straight jacket would be yr preferred exit medium !:E

Wmk2

john_tullamarine

29th May 2011, 10:16

A very important consideration is one's gameplan if it all falls in a heap due medical, not getting that break into whatever flying avenue one's heart is set on, etc....

Be very investigative regarding what your degree might open for you.

I have colleagues who lecture in one aviation degree program and those who do that program will get a good grounding in many areas relevant to airline operations etc.

However, if one ends up out of flying, consider very seriously where one might go in such an event.

Vocational degrees, providing one has acquired some experience in the field while flying, may offer a better lifeline than an aviation degree. Specifically, I would suggest investigating law, commerce, economics, engineering (might be a bit difficult to get any useful part time work), medicine etc.

On the other hand, a trade is probably a whole lot more flexible and may be easier to get part time work to get some runs on the board. Trades may offer some flexibility for part time work in retirement if the superannuation didn't work out all that well.

A degree sets you apart as a professional and is pretty much a pre-requisite for a long term career at the airlines.

I think the other folk, above, have scotched such self-serving tripe as arrant nonsense. I can reflect on having read aero engineering - good fun, had a ball at uni with more than a few headaches, and it's provided me with a very interesting career and good money - but, in terms of absolute difficulty to get a bit of paper at the end of the study, the SCPL/ATPL exams were the harder sequence to run albeit they can be done in far less time and the output is far less rigorous in terms of knowledge skillset.

If your argument is that a degree impresses along the lines of demonstrating that one can study and pass exams, I suggest you think again. Me, I dips me lid to those who have slogged through ATPL subjects whilst working full time. Indeed, I spent some years lecturing in such things and I have nothing but admiration for some folk who, in spite of considerable odds, slogged through and ended up in their preferred lines of flying endeavour.

Jack Ranga

29th May 2011, 13:14

I have also seen many Swinburne graduates going into the airlines quite young. A young Swinburne graduate helped with the instructing for my NVFR rating. One day he was missing from YMMB. After a short stint instructing he landed a job with Virgin flying B777's internationally as an FO.

Well............When you said he was missing from Moorabbin I thought you were going to say he was found in DFO buying silvo for his wings? Good on him eh!

peterc005

29th May 2011, 13:56

I have a son in year 11 who wants to fly for the airlines. My strong recommendation to him is Swinburne or RMIT.

For years I used to hire Decathlons from GFS and over that time saw many Swinburne graduates going into the airlines.

If he wants to change careers in 20 years time, his bachelors degree in aviation would still be a good basis for post-graduate study in another area.

Even without the career benefits of a degree, I'd still recommend going to uni. Education for the sake of education has a lot of virtue.

jieunni

29th May 2011, 16:58

Vocational degrees, providing one has acquired some experience in the field while flying, may offer a better lifeline than an aviation degree. Specifically, I would suggest investigating law, commerce, economics, engineering (might be a bit difficult to get any useful part time work), medicine etc.

I would extremely doubt that one would study medicine for five to seven years with the intention of keeping it as a back up.

john_tullamarine

29th May 2011, 23:02

that one would study medicine for five to seven years with the intention of keeping it as a back up.

One well-known chap in Melbourne (certainly would have to be retired now - haven't spoken with him for quite a few years) ..

(a) started off as an airline F/O (ANA - long time ago, now),

(b) read medicine while flying, eventually discontinued airline flying and ran FT with medicine - but could have combined the two without too much difficulty,

(c) subsequently read electrical engineering and ran a successful avionics shop

all the while having an interesting life of it. Not the common path due to the training time, but feasible, nonetheless.

One of the PPRuNe moderators combines both medical practice and professional flying. I venture to guess that there will be others in the sandpit as well.

As with any of the vocational degrees, they become very stale, very quickly if one doesn't work in the field along the way - none of them really fit the idea of being kept in reserve for a feared event years down the track. I see no reason why most can't be combined with flying. For instance, I ran a very active aviation engineering consultancy activity in parallel with airline flying.

I guess that similar observations could be made regarding, at least, some trades which require licences ?

mcgrath50

29th May 2011, 23:24

Good point JT!

The one benefit of doing an aviation degree, then working in aviation is you are keeping the degree current by working in the field. If you do a psych degree as a back up that's fine but in ten years time when you are over aviation and looking to get back into it your degree will be almost worthless.

As someone above said, education can be an end in itself and university life is a lot of fun, you make lots of new friends and have some great times. You will be slogging it out up north for a number of years, nothing wrong with taking a year or two extra to enjoy being young and responsibility free!

I'd personally recommend uni of some sort (aviation, commerce, arts, science etc. as long as it interests you) but it really doesn't matter. That is purely based on what I wanted to experience in life.

TSIO540

29th May 2011, 23:58

I did the Griffith uni Ba Avn. I enjoyed it, as others have said, each degree will have its strengths and weaknesses. Having done the degree and having worked in GA I can say that it will not help you get your first few jobs. It did however recently get me an interview with a large airline overseas

I did the degree because I was encouraged by my parents. I found that uni life was pretty cruisy and I made some great friends. After graduating I became interested in post grad study and I am now working towards a PhD with UNSW.

If you want a well rounded education and the proven ability to think critically, go with a degree and take a part time job (I went with security and crowd control).

If you want money on the side and a fall back option, go with a trade; or

If you have the cash, just get your CPL ASAP and get that first job...

That being said, most employers look at flight experience, whether you can sell yourself in an interview and whether or not get a good reference from your last employer. That is how I got every job I've had.

peterc005

30th May 2011, 00:14

My experience is mainly at Moorabbin, where I have hired a lot of planes from GFS/Oxford.

Looking back, I get a very favorable impression of the people who have been thru Swinburne/Oxford.

Can't comment on RMIT or other places because havn't had much to do with the.

Possibly the Swinburne/Oxford pilots would have turned out well anyway, but I'm impressed. Certainly the "airline pilot sausage factory" holds water, but that's what both the pilots and airlines want.

My strategy is for my son to finish his PPL in my plane before he hopefully starts at uni, and to use my plane as far as possible for training to reduce the costs.

Aviation degrees are a fantastic idea and generally seems to have been well executed.

jieunni

30th May 2011, 01:15

One well-known chap in Melbourne (certainly would have to be retired now - haven't spoken with him for quite a few years) ..

(a) started off as an airline F/O (ANA - long time ago, now),

(b) read medicine while flying, eventually discontinued airline flying and ran FT with medicine - but could have combined the two without too much difficulty,

(c) subsequently read electrical engineering and ran a successful avionics shop

all the while having an interesting life of it. Not the common path due to the training time, but feasible, nonetheless.

I think you may have misunderstood, but my apologies if you haven't. But as far as I'm aware, there is no medical degree program, and by that I mean, that awards one with a MBBS, that is offered part-time. Sure, you can read every book in the world related to medicine, but it doesn't admit the individual for an internship which is what all medical practictioners must complete.

I stand to be corrected, but I myself only graduated from year twelve last year with an offer to UNSW's MBBS program. Unless anything significant has changed since then, I don't think medicine would be a good choice if flying is what one wanted to do full-time IMHO. However, full-time medicine and recreational flying is certainly feasible and probably the more sensible out of the pair.

hamiltonw

30th May 2011, 01:27

Thanks again everyone, from what I have seen and researched UNSW looks like a good option as it has its own flying school and its local so that will being costs down.

Just another question does anyone know if Virgin Australia has any from of cadet program?

Thanks again Will
:ok:

john_tullamarine

30th May 2011, 04:03

there is no medical degree program, and by that I mean, that awards one with a MBBS, that is offered part-time

Back in the bad old days, one could structure one's flying to provide an essentially fulltime availability for other work, including training - might have affected the sleep a little but it certainly was possible.

The easier approach is to do the training fulltime prior to running with the flying job. Such was my strategy and, indeed, I just missed out on completing the BSc/BE double in parallel with engineering (without doing the extra year) as well as completing the bulk of my flying training on weekends. Mind you, back in those days, we averaged one or two nights a week working straight through without any sleep .. just par for the course, as it were. The Arts folk had a more relaxing life but that's the way things were and, I suppose, engineering is not all that much different these days ?

Actually, I originally intended to enrol in medicine but tossed that idea away over coffee on the day and went for aero .. I probably would have made a dreadful medico anyway.

However, full-time medicine and recreational flying is certainly feasible and probably the more sensible out of the pair

Again, in the bad old days, more than a few airline pilots opted for professional flying on a recreational basis.

Now, if a medico can tie work and recreational flying, what is the subtle difference between the two which might preclude professional flying ?

Main point is that some have combined medicine and professional flying with some success so the option remains valid.

In any case, medicine is but only but one of a number of vocational courses to which the budding pilot might look. The important consideration is to do a course in which one has significant interest and can contemplate a career if the flying turns to custard for whatever reason.

I might note that those of us in '89 with a second string to the bow suffered, in the main, far less stress than many of our flying-only colleagues.

jieunni

30th May 2011, 07:35

Back in the bad old days, one could structure one's flying to provide an essentially fulltime availability for other work, including training - might have affected the sleep a little but it certainly was possible.

I won't doubt for a second that what you said is true, buthe thing is, the author wants to be a cadet for an airline. Unless the cadet has flexibility in their work arrangements, then I can't see why that couldn't happen today. Most cadet programs are now full-time commitments and because there are no part-time MBBS degrees available, it just isn't possible.

The easier approach is to do the training fulltime prior to running with the flying job. Such was my strategy and, indeed, I just missed out on completing the BSc/BE double in parallel with engineering (without doing the extra year) as well as completing the bulk of my flying training on weekends. Mind you, back in those days, we averaged one or two nights a week working straight through without any sleep .. just par for the course, as it were. The Arts folk had a more relaxing life but that's the way things were and, I suppose, engineering is not all that much different these days ?

I'm not sure how different it is today but combined engineering students do on average 22-28 hours a week and their degree goes for 5.5 years.

Again, in the bad old days, more than a few airline pilots opted for professional flying on a recreational basis.

Now, if a medico can tie work and recreational flying, what is the subtle difference between the two which might preclude professional flying ?

Again, the author wants to become a cadet. I think our misinterpretation is coming down to our definition of professionally - indeed, getting paid to fly would be defined as 'professionally' (instructing, sight-seeing etc), but I was referring more to pilots in airlines, given that this is what the author is alluding to.

For those who do recreational flying, what I meant by that was those who maybe go down to their local airfield and just fly around for their own amusement.

Main point is that some have combined medicine and professional flying with some success so the option remains valid.

Indeed, if again by professional you mean by those who get paid, then yes. There is no reason why the option isn't valid. But again, this is out of context with what the author is seeking. I think you would be VERY hard pressed to find a pilot in an airline with a MBBS, who practices as a doctor when he/she isn't flying.

Having a back up degree is important because you never know what could happen to your health. By having that back up, it's pretty much an insurance policy. But be mindful of what you pick as your back-up.

Anyway, I think this has been taken a bit too far off-topic now. However...

The important consideration is to do a course in which one has significant interest and can contemplate a career if the flying turns to custard for whatever reason.

neville_nobody

30th May 2011, 08:05

Guys you study medicine because you want to be a doctor. I would suggest that you will be told to 'come back when you're serious' if you told them at the entrance interview that medicine was only a backup plan to being an airline pilot.....

john_tullamarine

30th May 2011, 10:03

jieunni .. I guess, in the time honoured tradition, we shall have to agree to disagree on the odd point or two.

The consideration is not medicine, per se .. rather something to use as a marketable backup to the flying... doesn't really matter what arena so long as it's marketable and, preferably, desirable for the individual.

Looking back, I have had a ball playing engineers .. but I might have done far better, in all probability, with a trade. For instance, a cousin, of similar age, retired from fulltime work running an electrical contracting business at age 55 and has since played grey nomads in a large trailer van with more funds (from the sale) than I have ... oh well .. win some, lose some, I guess.

combined engineering students do on average 22-28 hours a week

things certainly have changed .. that was our workload through until around Tuesday evening ... and we had to find room for drinking in our leisure time.

mcgrath50

30th May 2011, 10:52

When I went to university, I used to get up half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work 29 hours a day and when I got home our dad would kill us and dance about on our graves!

And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe ya!

poteroo

30th May 2011, 12:11

It seems to me that you need to decide which career path will hold precedence over the other.

I've always followed my ag. science path, and the flying became the 'hobby' if you like. It's worked well for me, as a travelling consultant - the flying became the means to travel. Nowdays I instruct a little more often as I've retired from most science jobs. And, I'll stay with it until the med1 expires. After 48 years and near 12k hours in my 2nd profession - I can definitely say this way... works.

Several others fellow scientists in Oz have also been able to steadily improve their flying quals - without losing anything in career path #1. The others I know of are all now ATPL/CIR, or CFI/Gr1 and still enjoying their flying.

I'd be surprised if there aren't many more economists, commerce,business,engineers, pharmacists out in GA/RAA land -enjoying their 2nd career, and filling a part time niche.

happy days,

snoop doggy dog

30th May 2011, 13:01

hamiltonw old mate, if you live in Newcastle try your local uni :ok:

Bachelor of Science (Aviation) / Program Handbook / The University of Newcastle, Australia (http://www.newcastle.edu.au/program/10064.html)

I have studied at 3 universities in Australia (under-grad. and post-grad.) and have found them to be the best. PM if you like.

Do your degree as you are young and have time on your side. It will give you an understanding on how to analyse and critique information in a valid manner. Employers and the people you will work with like this style ;)

Airlines (including where I work) are working towards employing more cadets with good academic qualifications and suitability to successfully train airline pilots in a procedural environment. Uni degrees help.

Companies all around the world (Aviation and otherwise) like employing aussies as they are educated and generally down to earth.

Good luck :ok:

4Greens

30th May 2011, 20:26

However you look at it, if you want a job in an airline, an Aviation degree will put you further up in the queue.

PyroTek

30th May 2011, 23:00

4greens, but how far?
1 year of CPL + 2-3 years of charter flying

Or

3-4 years of uni with CPL included, then you are 2-3 years behind the one without the degree in terms of experience..

eocvictim

30th May 2011, 23:07

That may be the case in the UK but it means nothing in Australia. Personally, as a professional pilot, I couldn't imagine anything worse than working in another field of aviation where I didn't fly. There are loads of good uni's with related courses that will be recognised by other sectors. The aviation degree's may help you with a post grad but from my understanding don't hold much credit and certainly don't hold their weight outside of aviation. You must research this before you apply.

FlyForFun1

31st May 2011, 01:11

Will,
There is alot to be said for going local. Your whole support network is available to you during the course - that is unless you can be convinced that one uni is far far better than the rest.

As for whether or not to do a degree, I think what DominicYPGV said sums it up. You will be surprised at where it will be usefull in the future. I did a Business Degree and am now a full time pilot. The understandings I gained through the degree apply equally well to any job, the same will apply to your studies in an aviation degree - the topics covered are quite diverse, just referenced to aviation.

Also, I have yet to read anyone who has done the degree say it was a total waste of time.

Personally I think you are heading in the right direction for a career in aviation.

Good luck

Mr. Hat

31st May 2011, 01:17

I have a degree in aviation.

If my airline closed tomorrow what would I be qualified to do? Beg for a flying job with 1000 other pilots at the opposition or beg for a office job making 40k in an airline? Great.

If I had a trade I'd have multiple options available to me.

Another issue. Sometimes I have a lot of time off.. actually its quite often. If I had a trade I could be running a business on the side or picking up odd jobs here and there. I could also do most of the work at home or in my investment properties.

The difference between the yays vs the nays is that the nays don't have anything to sell. How do you know some of the posters here aren't involved in education with ulterior motives?

You choose. I did the degree, did the training with bells whistles did the GA did the turbo props, did the crap jet job now I have a good jet job. 15 years of right moves and mistakes. A degree before getting a job was one of the mistakes.

Get the trade do the training get a flying job then do the degree.

peterc005

31st May 2011, 01:39

It's not that big a jump from aviation to IT. Do an aviation degree, then maybe some post grad IT studies.

Later, when flying for the airlines with days off, do IT consulting for extra bucks.

Main thing is to get an initial bachelors degree, it's easy from there.

mcgrath50

31st May 2011, 02:01

Although Mr. Hat is 10 - 15 years ahead of myself and from what I can tell most of the posters here, and is therefore well worth a listen, everyone is different.

I could think of nothing worse than working a trade (maybe AME/LAME but not plumbing etc.) sorry. It's not for me.

I was talking to a guy who transferred out of my degree at the end of our first year to do construction management he got one and a half semesters of subjects knocked off his degree from RPL. Not bad and a lot more than I expected!

So maybe the Aviation degree is more useful than we think? As has been said though any qualification is only useful if you are using it. If you get a teaching degree, work in aviation for 10 years and decide you are over it, you will have to do a decent bit of training to make use of that teaching degree.

I'm 10 - 15 years behind Mr. Hat, maybe I will come to his realisation but personally for me and at the current state of affairs I am happy with where I am.

peterc005

31st May 2011, 03:50

My son also has an interest in being a teacher, like his mum.

I pointed out to him that after completing a bachelor's degree in aviation, down the track he could do a year of study for a Dip Education to become a teacher. Handy backup if he ever loses his medical or gets caught in an aviation industry downturn.

A similar year of graduate study would get him into Accounting, IT, Banking etc.

In the long term, pilots in airlines will need the analytical and literacy skills of a degree to move into management. Wise long term investment.

I'm a weekend private pilot with no flight school affiliations. Happy to give my personal details to anyone who wants to verify this.

Di_Vosh

31st May 2011, 06:39

It's not that big a jump from aviation to IT. Do an aviation degree, then maybe some post grad IT studies.

Later, when flying for the airlines with days off, do IT consulting for extra bucks.

Before I was employed as a pilot I spent 18 years in IT (11 as an IT consultant).

Never have I heard such stupidity.

DIVOSH!

Mr. Hat

31st May 2011, 07:02

Sure but the problem is that the Aviation degree doesn't make one iota of difference to getting an Airline gig. Sorry guys.

I'll tell you what makes a difference:

3 years.

3 years spent messing around at uni is 3 years you are not getting the minimum qualifications to gain entry into a jet job like the one I have now. I fly with a lot of Captains that are exactly my age and younger. Do you know what the difference is? I went to uni before getting the minimum experience, they didn't. I'm not saying "don't go to uni". Hell, do a bloody phd if you want! Knock your self out. What I am saying is GET YOUR BUM ON A SEAT BEFORE THE MUSIC STOPS! Then.. do the degree.

Another lovely couple of thoughts for you. Every time we have an EBA another B scale comes through in one form or another like it or not. This is the "lucky" country. The longer you delay it, the worse your long term conditions are and the further down the seniority list you are. How would you like to be an effo for life? Do you think Airlines will hire forever? Jump in the Delorian and come back to the 90's and you'll get a surprise at how many jet jobs were going back then! Its all about cycles.

While you're at it, ask your accountant to crunch the numbers of 3 years missed at the top Captains salary earning level has on your long term financial well being! Thats right you are shortening your earnings at the top level by 3 years. Lets say 20 years command vs 17. Wow thats one hell of a degree!..Bloggs brushes himself off..."****, that just cost me a million dollars!"

mcgrath50

31st May 2011, 07:31

Fair call and as I said before, you have the experience I don't. But I left school at 17, three years uni, 20 years old. That's not that far behind people and from what I can see the three years can be down to luck (not getting the progression in GA) as much as the degree.

I had a great time at uni, which I probably would have with any degree, met lots of people, who I still use as contacts today, and grew up a lot as it meant for me moving out of home. The life experience not so much the classes were beneficial.

It really is a personal thing though and I don't deny that I may have delayed my entry to an airline/captains seat/top pay grade by up to three years. It's a bit like the advice people give here of avoiding shiny jet syndrome and enjoying GA, the journey can be as important as the destination.

Mr. Hat

31st May 2011, 07:37

Mc grath you've done it now thats fine no probs. I'm trying to advise someone is at the cross roads and has the option. If I could have my time over its the one thing I would change.

Boys (and girls) if you think uni is fun wait till you get your hands on your very first job! Your first twin, its awesome get into it.

mcgrath50

31st May 2011, 07:41

Mr. Hat, I know and just giving him my perspective. I too am learning from your perspective and find it very interesting, please don't take my posts as debating you!

Mr. Hat

31st May 2011, 07:44

Ah nothing wrong with debating me plenty of others do. I haven't got all the answers!

The stuff that gets me a little cross is the:

"In the states majors won't hire you if you don't have a degree. You know thats coming here soon."

Thats like pulling the fire handle before the fire starts!

Roxy_Chick_1989

31st May 2011, 09:38

4greens, but how far?
1 year of CPL + 2-3 years of charter flying

Or

3-4 years of uni with CPL included, then you are 2-3 years behind the one without the degree in terms of experience..

Im afraid it is not that simple, How many 18year old school leavers graduate with $75k tucked away to give to a flying school? Sure you can grab a CPL from a local flying school in a year if you have the cash, but I think it is widely accepted that as a school leaver with negligible savings, it will take you a minimum 2 years to do the ol' full time work + flying agenda. With that in mind, the aviation degree puts you at most, 1 year behind the pack. You have to ask yourself what the extra year gives you, In my eyes:
-Recognised tertiary qualification
-Superior technical knowledge (well beyond the 'how to pass the CASA exam for dummies' courses)
-Standardised flight training - from the feedback I get from people studying aviation, a vastly superior product is delivered from such organisations, a disciplined approach from day 1 goes a very long way (this may or may not apply to all organisations)
-Greater dedication to flight flight training, spending 5/7days flipping burgers is not the same as immersing yourself in Aviation for similar periods
-Much greater networking opportunities
-Access to post grad qualifications should the unthinkable occur

If I had the time and interest I could add more to that list, but I doubt I will be able to sway the views of the firm believers anyway.

In my eyes the Aviation degree helps you achieve to the best of your capabilities in your chosen field, that goes for both the flying and theory side. I mean no disrespect to those who are doing it the 'conventional' way (I know plenty), Although times are a'changing, and in this day I personally would feel a little 'nude' entering any workforce without tertiary qualifications, 'everyone' goes to uni these days!

Stationair8

31st May 2011, 10:02

You go straight to the top in GA, Roxy Chick.

Mr. Hat

31st May 2011, 10:58

-Superior technical knowledge (well beyond the 'how to pass the CASA exam for dummies' courses)

Keep telling yourself that..

Its like a form of brainwashing.

All this worldly experience talk.

-Standardised flight training - from the feedback I get from people studying aviation, a vastly superior product is delivered from such organisations, a disciplined approach from day 1 goes a very long way (this may or may not apply to all organisations)

-Greater dedication to flight flight training, spending 5/7days flipping burgers is not the same as immersing yourself in Aviation for similar periods

Now you just come across as an arrogant little uni kid.

Vastly superior? Says who the people that sell it? The brochures?

Greater dedication - oh come off it. So you've met every student pilot in Australia. While you were at uni did you learn about confirmation bias?

I rather the kid thats flippin burgers actually. Thats dedication. Not waiting for mummy and daddy to fork out.

'everyone' goes to uni these days!..yyeeepp thats the problem...

Sorry guys I get the ****s when people get all high and mighty. Funnily enough it was the high and mighty type that never turned up in ga when school was out. Thats right they gave it up. You soon see who's who when you've run out of ways to avoid going bush.

Roxy_Chick_1989

31st May 2011, 11:29

Greater dedication - oh come off it. So you've met every student pilot in Australia. While you were at uni did you learn about confirmation bias?

It would seem I need to clarify this point a little further, I am not questioning the dedication of the individual - far from it. More so the dedication of ones calendar week to activities related to Aviation, my point is that Aviation degrees do provide an excellent learning environment that allows you to make the most out of your theory and/or flying training.

Best we agree to disagree Mr. Hat, Its time this thread got back on topic.

jieunni

31st May 2011, 12:09

You choose. I did the degree, did the training with bells whistles did the GA did the turbo props, did the crap jet job now I have a good jet job. 15 years of right moves and mistakes. A degree before getting a job was one of the mistakes.

Get the trade do the training get a flying job then do the degree.

That can't be said for every degree. You never know what will happen in the future and for some people, it may not be feasible to then start university and study for three or more years. Indeed, it's possible to do distance education and study part-time, but I think you would agree that one should choose a degree that is in align with one's interest. As I've pointed out in the previous page, some degrees cannot be studied part-time.

[M]y point is that Aviation degrees do provide an excellent learning environment that allows you to make the most out of your theory and/or flying training.

This is really good point that I think you don't appreciate [Mr. Hat]. Some sudents actually want to go to university and experience university life and if you were to reply and tell me that I am

messing around

with my univerity degree, I think you would find that you would be in the minority. Although, if you refer to degree as an aviation degree, then yes, I would agree that an aviation degree is pointless. But that is my own view and Roxy raises a strong and valid point about the learning environment

4Greens

31st May 2011, 17:14

There are a number of times in this post where people quote their experience without allowing for the major changes in the availability of jobs at a particular time. As has often been said, a number of times, aviation is cyclical. This has been exacerbated by the movement to extend airline pilot retirement ages. The time will come......better to be well up in the queue.

Mr. Hat

1st Jun 2011, 00:26

As I've said nothing wrong with going to uni or getting an education. I see it as a positive. What I'm saying is that if you want to give yourself the best chance at getting your bum on the best seat in the airline industry you need to collect the Minimum Requirements ("Must Haves" at my company) first and the "Nice to Haves" later. The degree simply doesn't have the pulling power that the universities say it does when it comes to getting an interview.

Let me share this with you. I watched the CEO of my company tell us in a presentation and then also watched him in the Senate Inquiry clearly state that the company would not grow as much as it had in the previous decade. His words were; "I don't see the domestic fleet increasing by much" and then "No company ever went broke by having too few airplanes". You can take what you want from that and from what I'm trying to tell you here. Fact is I've been through it all (plus some added extras!) and I'm exposed half the month to the type of operation that a lot of you want to ultimately work for.

If I had my time over I'd have become a carpenter straight out of school (maybe flying on the weekend) and then gone straight to flying school completing a degree after I commenced employment. At the moment, with things slowing I may have even skipped the trade and gone straight for the licence straight out of school and then pointed the car in a westerly direction. If you are going to risk 3 odd years risk it on something that has a guaranteed return and an aviation degree does not have a return I'm sorry.

Ultimately we all do what we feel is right. All those years ago I thought the degree first was right. I thought it would put me ahead of the rest when it came to employment. In my journey I discovered that few had it and they all progressed at the same rate that I was. The reality deep down was that I was avoiding leaving the comforts of home for that bit longer! When it all came to an end my dad said something I'll never forget:

"music's playing..you'd better get up and dance". I went to my room and packed my stuff. The rest is history.

The guys at the flying schools that weren't doing degrees are now my Captains. Yes there are many factors to consider in why they got there first. Yes I had some very bad luck on multiple occasions but ultimately had I not sat at home for 3 years I'd have been in the left seat same company a long time ago. Its now possibly going to be 7-15 years. I'm not bitter, quite the opposite. I've achieved my goal, I love my job and I make good money and more importantly I didn't get killed in the bush. However, my standard of living would be a lot different today had I read a post like this one all those years ago. Good luck to you all and don't forget to enjoy the journey.

mcgrath50

1st Jun 2011, 01:03

Thanks, Mr. Hat. Taken on board the advice :ok:

PyroTek

1st Jun 2011, 09:31

Im afraid it is not that simple, How many 18year old school leavers graduate with $75k tucked away to give to a flying school?About half of my CPL class was between 17 and 20 years old, some through means of parents, some through means of savings. I trained alongside a friend who had saved up all his money during high school for his CPL.

You have to ask yourself what the extra year gives youFrom what I hear, Griffith Aviation is falling behind, the students seem to be doing a 4th year catching up on flying training, as the provider's supply of flying training is not meeting the demands of the students.

-Standardised flight training - from the feedback I get from people studying aviation, a vastly superior product is delivered from such organisations, a disciplined approach from day 1 goes a very long way (this may or may not apply to all organisations)Flight training may be standardised, but is it in the right/safest methods? I hear all sorts of rumours I won't bring up in here. Is being in a sausage factory being trained the same syllabus, better than going to a small flying school and learning essentially the same syllabus, as set down by CASA, though having an experienced, dedicated instructor? (By dedicated, I mean, to the student - as there are nowhere near as many students)
-Greater dedication to flight flight training, spending 5/7days flipping burgers is not the same as immersing yourself in Aviation for similar periodsI work as a shop assistant at a large supermarket chain, I immerse myself in aviation nightly, through PPRuNe, contacts and talking to people in the industry on Instant messengers. Most of my aviation networking is done from home. I feel that working a job like mine and paying off my own training as it is done is beneficial as I know where my money is going, and it's my money right now, so I'm going to get my money's worth from the training. Not only that, I think it is a much cheaper option to go through a small flying school than do a uni degree. Is it worth the difference in monetary terms?

:ok:Pyro

Cirronimbus

1st Jun 2011, 10:28

"I work as a shop assistant at a large supermarket chain, I immerse myself in aviation nightly, through PPRuNe, contacts and talking to people in the industry on Instant messengers. Most of my aviation networking is done from home. I feel that working a job like mine and paying off my own training as it is done is beneficial as I know where my money is going, and it's my money right now, so I'm going to get my money's worth from the training. Not only that, I think it is a much cheaper option to go through a small flying school than do a uni degree. Is it worth the difference in monetary terms?"

That is an interesting view. Just like 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder', the "worth" is also up to the individual to decide. In my case, I study on-line and thoroughly enjoy it. I consider my money is well spent. I get to "immerse" myself in aviation at work, through on-line study and discussion, and also get some info and ideas from this website too. I consider some of the ideas, information and experience that comes from on-line interaction with the other students (who are experienced people in a variety of aviation fields) on my course as nearly priceless; at least I doubt that I could get such useful and reliable information from 'public' websites. I have found that the training I am getting through uni is extra to what I've received from any flying school and it is relevant to what happens in the industry. This 'extra' training can not hurt. I guess it will depend on what you think is useful to you and what you think is value for your money?

On the other hand, I have met some uni graduates who happily boast about their uni educations, and in the same breath, will gob off and display their complete lack of knowledge about basic aviation concepts. It isn't about whether you have a degree or not, it is about what you have learned and what you put into practice.

Good luck with your studies, what ever form they take.

Mr. Hat

1st Jun 2011, 12:32

Dominic the fact that you are thinking about it is a very good sign. Be positive, make it happen. Just keep going don't stop. The saying that I picked up during my training? "one things for sure, you wont get in if you give up". And you know what? Every single person that stuck at, it bar those tragically killed, made it in the end. The ones that have it away, well you don't want to hear those stories!

Pyro, you're so on to it you're saving me from having to type. Small school experienced instructor my friend. I wish I had your brains when I started.

Pprune has a lot of rubbish on it lads, however there is some good stuff and some good posters on here that you can ask for help anytime. A lot of these guys are chief pilots and owners of companies in ga. It'll be up to you to work out who is worth listening to and who not. Often post counts can be an indicator. Just because someone disagrees or flames you doesn't mean they won't help you or won't offer you advice or a solution. Just a difference of opinion thats all.

mcgrath50

1st Jun 2011, 12:36

Small school experienced instructor my friend. I wish I had your brains when I started.

We can agree 100% on that. If you do, do the degree route (not advocating it), at a couple you can hold off enrolling in the flying, do your flying at a better school then get RPL for those subjects. It will be cheaper, better and possibly the best of both worlds.

T28D

1st Jun 2011, 12:43

A Degree is proof of endeavour, time spent in academic rigour, it is not someting to be denigrated.

No matter what the discipline, the effort and time invested in the study is well spent.

Anyone can carp on about "experience" and "time logged" all of which is no doubt a benefit to the individual.

But there is no way the endeavour of academic rigour can be sold short in the face of a purely experiential learining system.

Academe will win every time, it takes discipline and rigour.

rmcdonal

1st Jun 2011, 13:23

A degree can also be earned while waiting in your hotel on charter. In fact with 2 years industry experience and your ATPL subjects under your belt you can skip the whole bachelor's degree and zoom straight to a Masters at some UNI's. 1 Year online is worth somewhere between 300-600hrs for most first GA jobs. Year 2 should get you into a light twin doing 500-700hrs, and by year three you should be able to walk straight into the RH seat of a regional (if not before). OR in that same time frame you could pick up a BAvi and have 250ish hrs.

Pilot A:250 hrs + BAvi
Pilot B: 1500 hrs RH Seat Turbo Prop.
Average time to command in a regional seems to move around a bit but 3 years is a good guide line. So by the time Pilot A gets a gig in a regional Pilot B would be a Captain. Average pay Difference FO-Capt. in a Regional $40K ish. So after 3 more years Pilot B is a head $75K and 3/4 through the tax deductible education expense that is the Masters of Aviation. :ok:

Mr. Hat

1st Jun 2011, 13:50

Got it in one. Not to mention your position on the seniority list when you get the job you want.

Tempo

1st Jun 2011, 21:04

I have an Aviation degree. I have a job in an airline. I can tell you that with the future of this industry so bleak, I wish I had done a degree or a trade in something else. I have no fallback position and will be forced to lower my expectations of this industry just so I can pay the mortgage.

If Joyce gets his way, in 5 years joining an airline will no longer be an option for many.

Go flying by all means, its a great job, but, qualify yourself in something else.

I wish I had.

FlyForFun1

1st Jun 2011, 23:08

The difficulty with this descision is that it is a vocational degree where you don't need the degree to have the vocation!

So it becomes personal choice, depending on how much you value the education / learning, above the need-for-speed to the flight deck.

For those of you who have done the degree, I applaud you :D. Although you may not think much of it at the moment. I suggest that should the ship-hit-the-span in the future that your degree will hold you in good stead for many endeavours. It may not currently be appreciated in the aviation community, I would suggest that it is outside aviation. Do an experiment: apply for jobs as an 'ex-pilot' with and without a degree ( no, I'm not talking about trade type jobs). See what you can get...

Artificial Horizon

1st Jun 2011, 23:14

I would agree with the above, don't tie yourself to aviation. If you are going to do a degree why not in another area. I did a LLb (hons) part time over six years completing the study mostly on nightstops and long flights. My thinking was that if the airline industry went through another crisis (which it will) atleast I would have a fall back position to something else. Why restrict yourself to aviaition, if you are interested in airline management why not do a business management diploma or degree, then you can apply it across a number of industries.

b_sta

1st Jun 2011, 23:32

On the other hand though, I'd suggest that if you're already qualified in something (that is, you didn't go for aviation straight out of school), then by all means do an aviation degree as a means of either paying for your training, for the additional learnings involved, or simply for the social aspect.

Mr. Hat

2nd Jun 2011, 00:34

Sorry guys been there done that. Bad news, when it came to the crunch the degree wasn't acknowledged by anyone outside of aviation. Without sounding like a brag my grade point average for the degree was right on the upper limit. The "bells and whistles" I refer to were academic awards. They were useless to. So it wasn't due to poor performance. Just that the degree in aviation wasn't worth anything when it came to getting a job outside of the industry.

Tempo is someone that is in the same boat as myself he is you in 5-7 years.

john_tullamarine

2nd Jun 2011, 01:07

apply for jobs as an 'ex-pilot' with and without a degree

The couple of folk whose applications have come onto my desk didn't get any further .. simply because they had nil experience relevant to the position on offer.

I did a LLb (hons) part time over six years

Full marks and a very vocational qualification - presumably you then did your Articles and so on so that you could practice on the side. Even without being on the Roll the commercial world has numerous openings for such folk.

I'm sure he won't mind his name being taken in vain in the post .. John Maitland, whom many on this board will know, did much the same thing some years ago. I guess he was in his 40s at the time (he will, no doubt, beat me to a pulp if I'm too far wrong on that point - I certainly can recall the period when he was doing the degree). Now, he's a good example - extensive GA, ATO, and now has a very active legal practice. Not sure if he still does much flying as it's several years since I last spoke with him.

Artificial Horizon

2nd Jun 2011, 01:22

John,

I completed the law degree after alot of research and deciding that it is a wide ranging degree that doesn't limit someone to the 'practicing' side of legal work. Now with a Qualifying Law Degree under my belt I have always been of the opinion that if the sh*t ever hits the fan I will head back to the UK and finish off my 'practicals' to enable myself to enter the legal profession. I have always fancied Aviation Law, the way the industry is going there could be a fair amount of work in this area. :}

FlyForFun1

3rd Jun 2011, 05:39

The couple of folk whose applications have come onto my desk didn't get any further .. simply because they had nil experience relevant to the position on offer.

I appreciate that, but lack of skills aside, would you look more kindly on an applicant with a degree than one without? Assuming all else was equal.

I ask as when I was employing (outside aviation) I would look on a degree as comparative to an amount of experience (not compensation for a total lack of experience), just maybe enough to tip the balance on the selection. For a position that might require analysis and innovative thought it was almost an essential pre-req (note I said "almost")

Given the amount of negativity regarding an airline career at the moment, I would think that taking an extra year to put further qualifications under your belt would be a great idea?

rmcdonal

3rd Jun 2011, 07:12

just maybe enough to tip the balance on the selection If you had spent the years you were studying at uni actually flying then you wouldn't need to tip the balance.
For example, If two Wannabees both start at the same time:

W1: Flying School
W2: UNI

1st year
W1: 150hrs CPL+ CMEIR
W2: 0hrs, 1 year UNI

2nd Year
W1: 600hrs
W2: 0hrs, 2 Years Uni

3rd Year
W1: 1000hrs, 400Twin
W2: 150hrs CPL+ CMEIR + 3yrs UNI

So at the start of Year 4 both pilots go for the same job and...
W1: 1000hrs, 400Twin
W2: 150hrs, BAvi

The degree is only then useful if you are going head to head with a pilot fresh out of flying school with no degree.

jieunni

3rd Jun 2011, 07:49

I can't say much about the general aviation aspect of your post (although I do think it is exaggerated), but a university student certainly does not graduate with only 150 hrs:

Students will attain a minimum of Commercial Pilots Licence (CPL) with a Multi Engine Command Instrument Rating and a Air Transport Pilots Licence (frozen) on completion of the degree with advanced options available including Instructor Rating, Multi Crew course or a research project.

Students complete their training during block release from the academic program and will accrue up to 240 hours of actual and 60 hours of simulator-based flying.

Source: University of New South Wales - School of Aviation - Undergraduate Information (http://www.aviation.unsw.edu.au/future/futureugrad.html#BachelorAviation-FlyingStream)

But the thing is, the majority of people here who are advocating for the attainment of a university degree aren't saying that it's for the application process per se, but rather it provides a suitable backup plan should something happen.

Whether this is through a B Aviation (Flying) and a Masters in another discipline, or a degree in a completely unrelated discipline, I wouldn't say that a degree is

only then useful if you are going head to head with a pilot fresh out of flying school with no degree (emphasis added).

There are clearly many other benefits of higher education.

Mr. Hat

3rd Jun 2011, 08:39

Roxy_Chick_1989

3rd Jun 2011, 08:59

Just to add to rmcdonal's post. His figures are all well and good, but the assumption made is that you commence your flying training course with all monies ready (or at least a sizable portion available). When I graduated from school, most of my classmates would have struggled to afford a near new barina, let alone CPL costs, which means you may be required to work full-time to fund your training - this slows things down. If you are a 'career-changer' I agree, an Aviation degree is a red-herring, however for the 'average' 19 year old school leaver an additional 1 year commitment, to gain tertiary qualifications in what could potentially be a 40+ year career, is sensible for those who want to further their education.

I will admit though, those who do choose to offset their flying training costs will have a sizable 'loan' hanging over their heads, this may not suit everyone. You will be required to begin paying this back once you start earning above a given threshold ($47,196 for the 2011-12 income year), at a rate starting at 4% (heck even union fees take 1% of your income) of your income, which I think is rather gentle, and a rather small price to pay (if you'll pardon the pun).

Roxy_Chick_1989

3rd Jun 2011, 09:04

So what is that "back up" again? Exactly what job outside of working in aviation are you going to do?

Hey Mr.Hat, first of all, I respect your position as someone who has been there and done that.

The "back-up" that I believe people may be referring to is with regard to using your Bachelor of Aviation, as entry into suitable post-graduate study in an alternative field. Many may also find that their B.Av may entitle them to RPL in other fields at undergrad level.

Mr. Hat

3rd Jun 2011, 09:41

Yeah I don't buy the reasoning. Do you want to be a pilot or not? Who does a degree for their career with the idea of then doing another degree in another area just incase the first career falls over? Wouldn't you just do the degree in the other area first?

The second degree won't be on hecs either. Upfront full fees!

By the time you get to an airline you might just find that you've got very little time available and steam left. I have an extremely intelligent friend that has had things go wrong. Cap and Jacket with 150k+ one day unemployed the next. He is exactly the scenario you talk of. He has a Bavn. I asked him if he was going to go back and do another degree to enter another profession. His reply "I'm spent mate". "I couldn't for the life of me turn up to lectures and pretend to be enthusiastic and interested". This is a straight 7's guy: very academic.

You cannot imagine how much energy goes into this career, you just can't fathom it at the newbie uni level. You also just can't fathom how risky a career choice it is. Looking back at my decision to get the degree I look at it as the most ludicrous uninformed thing I've ever done.

I to had things go wrong years ago and guess what? I was the same a smy mate. Had I done a degree in something useful or a trade I would have been in a much better position.

jieunni

3rd Jun 2011, 09:50

So what is that "back up" again? Exactly what job outside of working in aviation are you going to do? Very strange to be getting a back up to something you don't actually have and using time up in a time critical industry to do so. Sort of cart before the horse and defeating the purpose of the "back up" in the first place. If you are going to get a back up get a back up that will actually work!

I think there are 3 types of people that get an aviation degree before attaining employment in the industry.

Perhaps I didn't it make it as clear as I should have in my previous post, but what I meant was that if one was to lose their medical, a degree would provide an avenue to resume employment (albeit in another area) almost immediately.

I should probably also make it clear to you that I would never undertake an aviation degree, but I don't think people should necessarily reject an aviation degree as worthless. Some students may want to just experience university life.

Who does a degree for their career with the idea of then doing another degree in another area just incase the first career falls over? Wouldn't you just do the degree in the other area first?

If one does an aviation degree, then it would only need to be one further year of study for a master's degree. It could be a MBA or something science-related. It could even be education related.

The second degree won't be on hecs either. Upfront full fees!

I'm of the understanding that HECS covers seven years of higher education. So unless one does aviation then goes onto study graduate law or graduate medicine, or one studies combined medicine, I don't see why HECS wouldn't cover the additional study.

Do you want to be a pilot or not?

I don't think you're in any way qualified to question the motives of others. Like Roxy, I respect your position in that you've experienced the path the author is suggesting, but that isn't the only way. There are many different factors that determine one's decision and getting into an airline as soon as possible isn't everybody's number one priority. Sure, you may be financially better off by entering the airlines asap, but that doesn't detract from my previous statement.

Like I said, I wouldn't do an aviation degree, but you seem to generally be against all degrees which is the only reason I'm supporting the other side (if you want to call it that). I

Look up Confirmation bias.

Yes, I did. But perhaps you could explain to me why this doesn't apply to you as well?

Mr. Hat

3rd Jun 2011, 10:25

Yes, I did. But perhaps you could explain to me why this doesn't apply to you as well?

Look it up again. I could easily say "I work for a major airline because I'm clever because I got a degree and straight 7's". I got into an airline and discovered over many years that I was in fact wrong in doing the aviation degree before getting my first job in the first instance. It did not provide me any advantage over the next guy. My opinion here is based on my and many others experiences. Why would I even bother wasting my time on a Friday night if I didn't have my future colleagues best interests at heart? I think you should have a close read of my posts again. You will then work out that I am not anti degree I'm "Pro" getting the timing right.

For those of you that want to be Airline Pilots. The state of play is this: Alan Joyce, Bruce Buchanan and co at the moment are working very hard to devise a way to circumvent paying EBA conditions and avoid the "heavy:ugh:" hand of FWA. This means contracts, this means casuals, this means employing people from impoverished countries on slave wages as they do with the flight attendants for J* already (yes they do sell themselves on overnights when in Australia to make extra cash!). If you don't get your skates on and get a job under the EBA of one of the Airlines or regionals (Qlink/Skywest forget the rest) and the AJ BB plan goes ahead you will be like the regional pilots in America that live in squalor. You have one hope and that is one Nick Xenophon and his Senate Inquiry. Don't bet on it though! AJ and BB are wining and dining the big end of town!

Signing off good luck all. Its Friday I need a beer. I just did a 14 hour day kids and now 2 hours of pprune! No wonder Mrs Hat loses it at pprune and the Hat! Come on mods wheres my medal? :}! Cheerio.

Mr. Hat

3rd Jun 2011, 11:56

Can somebody explain to me how the FEE HELP scheme works. I'm not familiar with this. It might help me understand some of the posters points of view here.

Can you get "HELP" if you go to the local aero club?

FlyForFun1

3rd Jun 2011, 12:07

If only life was so stable as to allow only one career for everyone.

Those of us for whom life is a bit more turbulent, and have had more than one career, probably look at things differently.....
.. As pilots we all look for alternates and backup plans just in case. I see this as no different. Who can say what opportunities may become available to you in the future? Do an MBA and go managememt? Can't be worse than the current crop!!

Mr Hat, I wish you a long and prosperous career in your prefered profession, and I hope life's variables don't get in your way. If you manage this, then yes, I agree the degree was of no particlar benefit to your career path, at least for now.

Education a waste of time? No, not ever. There is an old saying along the lines of: "They can take everything from you but your education". Never turn down the opportunity for more, you never know if or when it might come in handy.

My opinion is just that, 'my opinion', do with it as you wish.
If you want more, you gotta pay for it! (I've got a degree which says I can do that!!:)

Mr. Hat

3rd Jun 2011, 12:50

It's entertaining to say the least to see some of the responses. At no time have I said that education was a waste of time nor do I believe this to be the case. I've had more than one career and I've used my degree. If you want to talk about turbulent times I'll send you some nice photos and I'll close that case off pretty quickly let me give you the red hot tip! People on here seem to be selecting parts of my argument yet ignoring others to justify their own.

For the last time.

1. I'm not Anti Education.
2. I am Pro timing education to get maximum bang for buck (get bum on seat then do the degree claim the deduction).
3. I do believe there are better plan B's than a degree in Aviation for a pilot.
4. Without the detail, I've got a rough idea about losing my career at short notice and having to find a plan B or starve.
5. I'm just here to offer newbies an alternative to the hard sell business of university open days. They will make their own choices.

As for my career? Well, all I can do is pass my sims and do the best job I can. Do I expect my employer to be open forever? Do not know. Do I think I might have to retrain one day to do something else? Possibly. Do I wish I had a trade? You bet.

mcgrath50

3rd Jun 2011, 14:39

Mr. Hat,

Fee-Help is only available as part of a post-graduate course from universities. What uni's do is enrol you in a bachelor and some sort of graduate certificate. Hecs for the bachelor which covers theory and fee-help for the practical stuff in the certificate.

It can only be accessed at unis at the moment (and is one of the reasons they can charge the fees they do). The senate inquiry did look into the equality and anti-competitiveness of this, but it got a bit lost under the Jetstar/CASA stuff, hopefully not forgotten as it is unfair and inflating flying training prices.

PPRuNeUser0163

3rd Jun 2011, 23:37

Mr Hat,

Whilst I appreciate your input and experience I think I'n the end it is a decision on personal preference. the course, the people I've met, been able to network with , being I'n the AUSAR hq I'n CBR during the airvan accident I'n flinders are experiences I can't say my friends who didn't do the degree have had.

If you want to do a relative comparison- out of those who went the traditional route and compare those who did the flying school method almost all took 1.5-2 yrs for cpl mecir/fir and atpl.. I've completed these I'n 2 years and will have my degree so really it is a VERY small difference. These guys I refer to - 3/10 have jobs I'n the aviation industry and out of those 3 they have logged around 300-400 hours I'n work - which really isn't that big a difference considering how soon I finish.

End rant- I'n short my perspective is from someone who's done the degree recently , and I think times are changing rapidly compared to when other posters started out. Plus tell me what Asian carrier, us and even European don't want a degree .. Most do, and they value an aviation one for the knowledge it gives you. When it hits the fan in this country and I consider my options if another 89' like they're talking about happens . I'll be glad knowing I meet the degree entry requirements opening up many options I wouldn't of had before even with flying experience.

HomeJames

4th Jun 2011, 03:08

Hullo Chaps,

Dear oh dear, haven't we gotten ourselves into a twist over this subject again. Like clockwork it seems, every 2-3 months, this old chestnut pops it's head up and all the usual suspects regurgitate the same old arguments ad nauseum.

The hipocrisy is charming also, I do love the statement that:

The state of play is this: Alan Joyce, Bruce Buchanan and co at the moment are working very hard to devise a way to circumvent paying EBA conditions and avoid the "heavy:ugh:" hand of FWA. This means contracts, this means casuals, this means employing people from impoverished countries on slave wages as they do with the flight (http://ie.surfcanyon.com/search?f=sl&q=flight&partner=wtiieeuh) attendants for J* already (yes they do sell themselves on overnights when in Australia to make extra cash!). If you don't get your skates on and get a job under the EBA of one of the Airlines or regionals (Qlink/Skywest forget the rest) and the AJ BB plan goes ahead you will be like the regional pilots in America that live in squalor.

Ignoring the slander contained in that paragraph, this circling the drain style descent really kicked off in earnest when Airline hopefuls started coughing up for the type rating. Sound familiar Hat old boy? But the PPRuNe community thanks you in earnest for the sacrifice of your Friday night to give advice.

Do I have a degree you ask? Why yes. Is it aviation? Why yes it is. Did it help? Most Certainly. Would I have had the time or inclination during the last 6 years of flying to complete any degree by correpsondence? Certainly not.

Did my degree assist me in my current and previous employment? Unequivocally yes. Now if you'll excuse me, I must get back to working for one of Mr Hat's 'forget the rest' employers. Actually, no, I don't work weekends. Quite good for a 125k/500hrs a year job.

Straight home and don't spare the horses.

jieunni

4th Jun 2011, 04:55

Do I have a degree you ask? Why yes. Is it aviation? Why yes it is. Did it help? Most Certainly. Would I have had the time or inclination during the last 6 years of flying to complete any degree by correpsondence? Certainly not.

This did seem contradictory in Mr. Hat's post i.e. he referred to his "Straight 7's" friend not having the "steam" to pursue a degree and Mr. Hat's argument that a degree/trade should be attained during one's aviation career.

Mr. Hat

4th Jun 2011, 07:40

Yep righto. I'll stop wasting readers time with my experiences. I made mistakes, was just trying to share them to maybe help someone in their journey.

Seabreeze

4th Jun 2011, 08:39

There are some unique aspects to some aviation degrees that are not found in commerce/business degrees, science degrees, aero eng degrees etc.

These include: managing high international competition changes on a daily basis, schedule management and schedule disruption management, LCC approaches, very low returns on capital investment, predicting route RPKs, choosing fleets to optimise ASKs yet minimising aircraft types on the AOC, as well as safety issues (adoption of ICAO requirements) such as SMS, developing safety cultures, human actors and SOPs, fatigue, and how to develop and implement security systems for airlines and airports etc.

Only aviation Degrees can give you this material, although some Degrees have a greater degree of thoroughness than others. Some just tack on a couple of courses on HF and aviation economics and leave the majority of academic theory to delivering the legislated flying theory, while others have specific management degrees which cover all of the issues in the 2nd paragraph and more. Graduates with a wide and deep knowledge of aviation management are very employable.

All degrees build intellectual capability as well as providing some specialist knowledge. Intellectual challenges are best made in areas in which the individual has a genuine interest and curiosity, so if a degree is to be attempted it is best done in an area where the individual has an interest, and curiosity, because this is where he/she will best prosper in the workplace where this background is useful.

As an aside, those pilots who subscribe to the “don’t need to know much outside of the direct flying requirements” philosophy probably do the profession some damage, as well as being easier to manipulate by intelligent and well educated senior managers or CEOs. The better educated and informed the pilot community, and the higher level of professionalism that pilots show, the better the pilot community is able to defend jobs.

There are different degrees of quality and content depending on the Degree on offer. They are not all the same, so check out the details carefully.

End of rant; time for a nice red.

Mr.Buzzy

4th Jun 2011, 10:06

I suppose half of you lot think that collecting jet endorsements is a great idea as well?
You're only as good (and employable) as what you have been doing recently. A piece of paper in whatever field is useless unless you have stayed up on the game.
I have a trade, Engine/Airframe, and certainly don't kid myself into believing that if I lost my flying job that I could just take up where I left off.
Save your biccies girls. You can play the "what if" game all day.

bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hasselhof

4th Jun 2011, 13:46

Yep righto. I'll stop wasting readers time with my experiences. I made mistakes, was just trying to share them to maybe help someone in their journey.

Hatty hatty hatty.... You gotta chill out in your old age mate. When you need the pills, you already know who to call :E

It's pretty funny seeing lots of guys who are still doing their BAV degrees with sub 150hrs total time and 0.0 hrs working in the industry write on this thread like their opinion the gospel truth.

My $0.02. I'm in the industry, yeah. I've got a degree, yeah. Been in and out of aviation for a little over a decade so I can never be accused of rushing anything career wise. All I know is this:

I'm off away from friends and family looking for flying work. I'd hazard a guess that it's going to take me about 2-6 months before any flying comes along. Because of my degree in a field outside of aviation I get paid $60.82 an hour casual rate, I can get a job in ANY town I happen to be in by simply picking up the phone, and most importantly of all is that while I look for flying work I can literally pick my hours so that my work fits around trips out to the airport. This 2-6 months is going to be a doddle.

If you've got a B Aviation, what can you do in my place?

I've got two big regrets.

First, is that my timing is ****ehouse. Back in 2004 when things were tough I went back to uni, had the time of my life, and totally missed the short lived GA land of milk and honey in the 2006-7 period and only caught the tail end of it before the GFC came along. Timing is everything I suppose :ugh:

Second, is that I didn't stick with it when times were tough the first time around. Things were much different then, I had been at it for three years with promise after promise being broken in GA, I had no degree, and no skills outside of flying aircraft (even those were questionable :E). All my mates from that era that are still with us who were in the same boat as I was are flying jets on decent coin (because they don't work for that operator), or turboprops doing some of the most enjoyable flying in the world all the while loving what they do. I still wonder if I'd stuck with it for another three months if it would be me that cracked that first real charter job which would have lead me to the same position in life as those other blokes.

That said, do I regret having done a degree in a field completely removed from aviation? NO.

The way I see it is this -> Get your flying training done quickly so that you can pack up, head out bush and be first in line when that job comes. Stick with it otherwise you'll wind up at the back of the que. If you want more qualifications (which is in no way a bad thing) then get something you can use on those dark dark days when you realise that no matter how much flash looking paint it might have on the outside, beauty in the aviation industry is often only skin deep.

By doing a straight aviation degree, you might (and there is no evidence to prove so in Australia) be giving yourself a +1 on the resume, but you are limiting yourself to one industry which is notoriously cyclical, extraordinarily small, and in the process of cutting the terms and conditions of those that work in it all the way to the bone.

mcgrath50

4th Jun 2011, 15:32

Sorry Seabreeze,

Aviation degrees take you only a little of the way into all these things, the subjects I found were great 'set the scene' things but really could have been gotten from reading a few books on each of the subjects.

Popgun

5th Jun 2011, 00:01

What Hasselhof said.

PG

PS. I fly for an Aussie 'major' and I have degrees in aviation and another field.

Spotl

5th Jun 2011, 08:20

Mr Hat is spot on with all his posts. My son is one of the Airline Captains Mr Hat refers to without a Degree, more than likely the same age or younger than the FO's he fly's with in the B737NG he commands.

He doesn't hold it against those with Degrees, but reckons it makes virtually no difference when applying for an airline job, except those without Degrees are normally ahead when it comes to hours and experience.

I was involved in aviation, but have since retired before Aviation Degress were ever thought of. I did not assist my son in anyway in his chosen career. He worked his way into flying by working in mundane jobs to fund his flying lessons and MECIR. After working in GA for a few years, he manages to get a turbo job, folllowed by an initial charter jet job and finally to an airline job. He is now 36. Even when he was on the 'dole' for six months the money was spent on flying lessons.

In fact, when you talk to him, he feels sorry for those with Degrees who have now missed out on the opportunity for command for sometime within his airline. This, because he feels they started at the same time as he, but elected for teriary studies on a 'promise' they would be considered first by the airlines.

Seabreeze

5th Jun 2011, 09:53

McG50.

A reasonable degree (of any sort) will give a foundation on which to build further knowledge and expertise, and to learn more advanced techniques. This development process should go on for life. A Degree (or any other qualification) is just a starting point of professional development, not the end point.

There is no reason a person without a degree can't learn techniques, but that would depend very much on the complexity of the techniques, and the ability of that person to learn in a work environment where the emphasis is to get the immediate job done quickly. For example, optimisation is best learned though a set of structured university courses rather than dabbling in canned software while working full time.

theme drift..... time for me to sign off and have another red.

jieunni

5th Jun 2011, 12:05

A major difference that is forging such a dichotomy of opinion could come down to the way one was brought up. I was raised with the idea that education is very important (not saying this isn't the case for those without degrees) and so I naturally wanted to pursue higher education.

In fact, when you talk to him, he feels sorry for those with Degrees who have now missed out on the opportunity for command for sometime within his airline. This, because he feels they started at the same time as he, but elected for teriary studies on a 'promise' they would be considered first by the airlines.

As it's been stated, command at the earliest possible age isn't the number one priority for all people. After I graduate from university, I'll have a combined law degree from USyd (albeit 4.5 years later). Although I might not get into the airlines as early as those who go into GA next year, I'll have had a blast with what university has offered me. There are also other things such as a commitment to life-long learning (which the poster above has briefly mentioned) which will support my professional develoment. There will also be exchange opportunities for me to study in another countries, listen to some of the most prominent speakers in the world today (Geoffrey Robertson, Malcom Turnbull and the US Ambassador gave talks several weeks ago, and Tony Abbot, former Chief Justices, solicitor-generals and others are schedules to give talks - even my lecturer for torts next semester will be a former High Court justice) and countless other opportunities that my future colleagues will not have had the chance to experience. Some of you may even be thinking well who cares? But to myself and others, we value what university other than the academic aspects offer. Indeed, most pilots my age will be far higher up in the seniority list, but in the end, it just comes down to what each person prefers, largely underpinned by how they were brought up.

Particularly to Mr. Hat, this doesn't detract from anything that you've achieved. I envy your position as a Qantas pilot and I know that I want to be in that position one day too. But, there are many other factors in my life such as wanting to be a pilot in the RAAF and university education that I have to balance out and by adopting the approach of the 'fastest way to the airlines', I inevitably miss out on many of the things that I want to do. Unlike you, I would still stick to the decision I've made (although I do regret not going to ADFA). At the same time, I think it was a sensible decision because from the way I see it, many ppruners negatively portray what is happening at Qantas (I guess this is the argument Mr. Hat puts foward about getting in early). At least this gives me time to assess my options and not go about putting all my eggs in one basket.

Food for thought for all those who argue that the fastest possible avenue to the airlines is most important:

If getting into the airlines asap is so important, why were so many against the Qantas cadetships (I'm not including the others because I know that would just lead people to talk about the experience/downward pressure on t&c etc) Alternatively, would you then suggest one leaves high school after year ten (if the student was seventeen), complete their CPL (by which time they would be 18), then go GA? Prior to submitting an application for the airlines, a bridging course could be completed in the required HSC subjects (takes about three weeks). This would arguably be the fastest route into the airlines? Would you support this path?

Spotl

5th Jun 2011, 14:25

jieunni, possibly in your case it may have been better for you to take the ADFA offer, as you are obviously looking for security if all fails. Look at what you've missed out on with ADFA - free university education and free flying and might I say getting paid for it too.

You should go back now and tell them you'd elect for direct entry pilot. You've obviously passed the RAAF Candidate for Pilot Selection to be selected for ADFA and Pilot Training. Look at all the money you'd save in learning to fly alone. Do a Degree Course part-time whilst in the RAAF or afterwards. The only contraint is the ROSO (Return of Service Obligation) of I think 10 years now and more if you are further trained on the B737 BBJ or A330 Tanker. I can't remember when I was in the military what it was. But, remember, the failure rate is high.

b_sta

5th Jun 2011, 21:34

Hasselhof

5th Jun 2011, 22:52

What I think is clear from this thread is those who have never been to university don't appreciate the immense educational, social, psychological and motivational benefits of going to university

And even more importantly, the chicks. Oh, and the uni bar. And the parties. And the chicks. Did I mention those? No? OK then... Chicks.

PPRuNeUser0163

6th Jun 2011, 01:27

All I have to say is why do the Qantas cadetship, Jetstar (partially because it isnt actually a degree, its an associates) make their cadets do degrees ? I wonder.. thats a hard one to figure out:rolleyes: Clearly its valued and will continue to be an upward trend.

Those that regret doing it, either are windups or probably regret becoming a pilot too- the simple truth is that 1 year extra of a degree is NOT going to prevent you from getting command for years and years!

I think many readers need to remember that even in the 90s when many started out degrees werent valued here in aviation anywhere NEAR as much as they are now. Look at the Qantaslink traineeship criteria- Tertiary education/degree is a highly desirable component. I can tell you of two guys I know one who had a degree (was in Aviation) and one who didnt and both with the same experience- and the one with the degree got into the traineeship. But no listen to these guys, don't spend 1 year extra doing it- because it will never help:ok:

Di_Vosh

7th Jun 2011, 01:06

To save myself a lot of typing I'll quote a post I made only four months ago on this very topic...

If you want to fly, then fly! If you want to do a degree, then do a degree! It really doesn't get much simpler than that!

Only do a degree if you've got a genuine interest in doing that degree. Don't bother with an aviation degree until you've got full-time employment in aviation (you can do them via distance learning).

DO NOT do a degree as a 'back up' qualification. Considering the costs of tertiary education, you're just wasting your time and money which could be better spent getting hours in your log book.

Besides, most degree courses have a half-life. I'll use myself as an example: I graduated Melbourne Uni in 1986 with a BSc in Biological science (Majors in Genetics, Biochemistry and a sub-major in Immunology). My first professional job was as an accounts clerk in 1987 and in 1988 I'd moved into I.T.

By 1988 my BSc was useless as an employment tool, as the science had advanced so much in 18 months that I wasn't employable with the qualifications that I had. I got the I.T. job because the company I worked for wanted a Uni graduate. NOT an I.T. graduate; just someone who'd gone through uni. (Okay, so there is a 'use' for a degree. But you've got to ask yourself is it worth three years of your life and the money. Uni was free in my day).

I remained in I.T until 2005. After that I've been employed full time either with the military or in aviation. At no time in any of the airlines that I've worked for (including Qlink), have the recruitment people wanted to see tertiary education.

I was an I.T. professional for 18 years. These skills also have a half-life and I doubt that I could get I.T. work now after a six year absence. If I can't get an I.T. job (18 years experience) after a six year hiatus, do you really think that you've got a 'backup' (with nothing more than a basic degree) if you lose your licence 5 years later?

Trust me you won't!

Mr. Hat

7th Jun 2011, 01:09

Jieunni, I don't work for Qantas. I do support their pilots, as I would others, in their cause however.

Di_Vosh

7th Jun 2011, 01:36

What I think is clear from this thread is those who have never been to university don't appreciate the immense educational, social, psychological and motivational benefits of going to university - aviation course or non-aviation course.

What I think is clear from this thread is that those who have been to university overappreciate the value of going to university.

To anyone justifying three years of study for a "backup" please read my previous reply. As Mr Hat mentioned, if you don't keep your other skill set current it wont be much use to you.

Seabreeze

A reasonable degree (of any sort) will give a foundation on which to build further knowledge and expertise, and to learn more advanced techniques. This development process should go on for life. A Degree (or any other qualification) is just a starting point of professional development, not the end point.

There is no reason a person without a degree can't learn techniques, but that would depend very much on the complexity of the techniques, and the ability of that person to learn in a work environment where the emphasis is to get the immediate job done quickly. For example, optimisation is best learned though a set of structured university courses rather than dabbling in canned software while working full time.

Self-serving intellectual snobbery! Backed up with a flawed argument which is itself backed up with a completely inane example.

Nkand:

All I have to say is why do the Qantas cadetship, Jetstar (partially because it isnt actually a degree, its an associates) make their cadets do degrees ? I wonder.. thats a hard one to figure out

Do they? Or is it that they get their students from providers like OAA who as part of their package include the Swinburne course? Best not to confuse cause and effect here. Why then do Qantas and J* DEFO's require HSC and not a tertiary qualification?

Clearly its valued and will continue to be an upward trend.

Clearly this is your opinion only.

Look at the Qantaslink traineeship criteria- Tertiary education/degree is a highly desirable component.

Highly desirable doesn't mean mandatory! Surely you've passed HSC/VCE English? Is your comprehension lacking?

And the funniest quote of all:

I can tell you of two guys I know one who had a degree (was in Aviation) and one who didnt and both with the same experience- and the one with the degree got into the traineeship

To say that the degree made the difference here shows that you've a fundamental misunderstanding on how a recruitment process works.

DIVOSH!

P.S. But no, listen to these guys (Nkand, Jieunni, b_sta, etc), spend extra time and money doing a course which may well have a negative impact on your flying career.

b_sta

7th Jun 2011, 02:10

I'd say you've misunderstood what I've said. I'm well aware that an aviation degree as a supposed prerequisite is unlikely to assist one in specifically becoming a pilot, and I'd also absolutely agree with your statements that getting a non-aviation degree simply as a backup is a futile exercise. However, where a degree does come in handy is, as I already stated, through the development of an indepth education - the taught ability to critique, question, research and explore - the motivational benefits, the social experience, and the satisfaction of achieving a major goal in life for many people.

Personally, I know far more people who've attended university - not just in aviation - than haven't, and I can't think of one who's regretted it. Perhaps 18 year olds with stars in their eyes and promises of an FO job on a 74 may end up regretting attending, given an expectation of such instant, causative success, but for those attending university for the right reasons, it's hard to beat in terms of personal growth at any age.

My thoughts, specifically? Do the training to become a pilot, if that's what you want, then do a degree - whichever degree you think you'll enjoy or will assist you in some way - as an addition to broaden your own knowledge, perceptions and skills. Don't waste your time doing an aviation degree because you think it'll get you a job, and don't waste your time doing a non-aviation degree simply as a backup.

flyhigh744

7th Jun 2011, 02:22

I was one of the guys who did the Qantas cadetship - now probably one of the youngest FOs and I did not get a university education. Take what you want from that, but it's quite clear that bypassing university education gets you into the airlines much faster.

However, it's much like a double-edged sword. If there was enough time in the world for what everyone wanted to do, I would have most probably done a history degree because that is where one of my interests lie. I do no think that there is also any doubt that university offers many of the other benefits that those who advocate for it are arguing i.e. professional development, social environment, networking, exchange, challenging etc

In terms of an aviation degree, I don't find any particular strong advantages of completing one, but if another field? Definitely. Jieunni makes a really good point about life-long learning but I bet there would be several raised eyebrows with the fact that you're doing a combined law degree at a university that had a UAI (or whatever it's called these days, ATAR I think?) of 99.7 - the industry is becoming worse and worse. From the pilots that I've talked to, they wouldn't recommend this to their children. You could easily do something else, earn bucket loads of money, whilst still enjoying the pleasures of aviation.

Just my two cents

Tankengine

7th Jun 2011, 02:45

If you really want a degree there is nothing to stop you doing one ,[part time] AFTER you have a job in an airline. In fact you will credits for a large pecentage of an Aviation degree. Many pilots have done degrees of various types after years in an airline.

Joining an airline one year apart may mean many seniority numbers and that may be the difference between good and less good times for the next 40 years!
For eg: those that joined Qantas one year after me cannot get to an aircraft type where I have middle seniority!:ugh:

Times may change but in many ways degrees are only for snob value! I have been looked down on by some of these snobs for not having a degree [by Batch Arts FFS!:ugh:]and not having the benefits of going to Uni, thankfully I don't care and would prefer to be earning three times their salary!:ok: [unfortunately that is changing in this industry too!]:mad:

flyhigh744

7th Jun 2011, 02:59

I don't think it is for the snob value anymore, if there were ever such a thing. I think you would be very hard pressed to find a job without a degree in fields such as law and medicine (both of which it is a requirement), architecture, engineering etc

You were probably looked down upon because you couldn't spell the first word of their qualification and with regards to doing a degree during employment? I guess it could be possible if you were SH, but I know I wouldn't be effed to get out a textbook whilst I am jetlagged during stopover and study. Also, whilst you may be earning three times more than a B Arts, there are many degrees that offer avenues to careers that make our salaries laughable (given what we also have to go through as well + medical + checks)

I think it is quite clear that you under-appreciate the value of university.

ChaseIt

7th Jun 2011, 08:23

Will, I did a degree with Swinburne and had a great time! got to party and play up whilst i also learnt some great stuff and met some top people who are still great friends... With it being so hard trying to find work these days maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to give it a crack and wait for 'the next dip in the roller coaster'... However some tips for if you do decide to do it...

1. If the flying has anything to do with 'Oxford' don't do the training with them... Go to some other mob that has a solid base and good reputation with older more experienced instructors... Oxford market their product well, yet the fact of the matter is that the guys that will be teaching you with Oxford are only fresh CPL's themselves and haven't yet grasped flying either... on top of that the rates which they charge for the aircraft hire is shocking (way to much icing on the cake!) I know for a fact, (because i was so shocked myself) that you can hire a twin at other schools for less then what they charge for a single! and if your planning on going into the charter world I think an old 'gas and steam' twin would benefit you a lot more in the long run...

2. If your course includes ATPL subjects see if you can skip it and go do the study with AFT in the sunny coast. The cost of one ATPL subject at uni is just as expensive as the 4 major ones with Nath... I know at Swinburne if you complete the CASA ATPL exam that is more then enough for the university to pass that component

3. Network as much as you can it won't hurt you in any way just help you if anything.

4. Just enjoy.

If you have any other questions mate feel free to inbox me otherwise have fun!

Tankengine

7th Jun 2011, 08:28

Flyhigh,
I can spell OK! Have many mates in medicine etc and of course they need degrees, that is how their profession is trained. We are talking about aviation degrees here, almost useless!:=
Of most of the B Arts crowd, I wouldn't piss on them, a waste of [my] taxpayers money.:ugh:

How many of the richest 1000 people in Australia have degrees?:confused:

You are correct, I do under-appreciate the value of university.:E

flyhigh744

7th Jun 2011, 09:19

Of course, I agree - almost useless. But only on what is learnt ie the subjects taught.

I would think that many of the top 1000 richest Australians would have degrees.

With respect to the rest of the world, there are only the odd few we hear about like Bill Gates who drop out of Harvard and become self-made billionaires :{

sydneypilot88

20th Jun 2012, 11:34

Hey,

I'm 23, already done a business degree at UTS and worked in finance. Always wanted to be a pilot and after much deliberation i've decided to go ahead and do it! I do value a good education and enjoyed the whole university experience but wondering if it's worth doing again to become a pilot?! If it puts me ahead at all i'll consider doing it but just seems like the Bachelor of Aviation is for people that want to become a pilot and also want the whole university experience.

Any advice/thoughts would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

WannaBeBiggles

20th Jun 2012, 21:31

You already have a worthwhile degree, save your money and just do the normal route. :ok:

Worrals in the wilds

20th Jun 2012, 23:09

Always wanted to be a pilot and after much deliberation i've decided to go ahead and do it! I do value a good education and enjoyed the whole university experience but wondering if it's worth doing again to become a pilot?!
No.
Fly. :ok:

As Biggles said, your own degree is a good one; you don't need another.

markjones

14th Aug 2012, 03:33

Hi

The situation I am in is I am 28 and want to start a career in the aviation industry, which i regret not doing straight from school but I do have a trade behind me and a whole lot of knowledge and life experience.

The issue is I have a home loan now and to pay upfront the costs involved to get my CPL I would have to sell my place and rent until I can buy again in the future.

That is why I am considering either bachelor of aviation at Griffith or Swinburne Uni mainly because i can defer the flight training costs using hecs and fee help and have minimum initial out of pocket expense.

What are peoples thoughts? I know my age is an issue but I am at a point in my life that I want to be in a career I love for the next 30 + years in my life, even if I don't make excessive amounts of money.

Cheers in advance for the input.

:D

paperplanepilot

23rd Aug 2012, 10:15

You don't have to go to University to access FEE-HELP. I'd recommend checking out TAFE courses run by smaller flying schools.

I recently completed a Bachelor of Aviation at university and put a lot of my flight training on FEE-HELP. The flying school I went to was too big and didn't really give a stuff about my progress, there were 2 month long gaps in my training due to shortages of instructors.

I've since moved to a smaller school and I'm progressing faster than ever and enjoying my training a million times more than I was at the University's flying school. The smaller school I'm at now have a TAFE course with access to FEE-HELP. If only I had known that 3 years ago, it would have saved me a lot of time, money and headaches.

markjones

23rd Aug 2012, 22:47

Would you have any more information or know where i can get it regarding tafe courses approved for vet fee help?

Ive tried searching tafe's etc but cannot find anything. Is it only offered in certain states? I am in qld and was considering Swinburne uni as it is only 3 years where Griffith up here is 4.

What is your feedback on the Bachelor of Aviation?

Thanks for the reply.

Seabreeze

24th Aug 2012, 07:35

I think UNSW Aviation offers a Bachelor of Aviation with Hecs-Help and a concurrent Graduate Diploma of Flying with Fee-Help. You have to meet academic entry requirements of some sort.

Having up-front loans is great but they have to be paid back... eventually.

By the way VET Fee-Help and Uni Fee-Help have different requirements in terms of up-front and deferred costs

SB

paperplanepilot

26th Aug 2012, 16:29

Oh dear, I hope I haven't gotten my facts wrong.
Looks like VET FEE-HELP doesn't cover CERT I - IV, which is what the CPL is usually under. It's just a matter of finding a place that has CPL included under a diploma or graduate certificate.

I thought Royal Vic Aero Club had access to FEE-HELP, but it looks like that's only for Instructor and Instrument rating.

Here's a list of all the places that are approved VET. Not all of them are aviation, but it might help. Providers that offer Commonwealth assistance - Study Assist (http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/mytertiarystudyoptions/providers-that-offer-commonwealth-assistance/pages/providers-that-offer-commonwealth-assistance)

Giving them a ring to enquire about courses can't hurt, if it's a good school they'll be more than happy to help to give you info.

My university experience was good and bad. Good points included making a big network of friends who I'm still mates with after finishing uni, and getting a nice overview of all the parts of aviation, like how an airline runs as a business, air traffic control, aircraft design, etc.

The bad part was trying to juggle a university degree as well as flying as well as a job to pay for rent, food and those damn charts, books, exams, uniform, headset and landing and ILS fees.

Some subjects sucked as well, who wants to constantly pump out assignments on complex numbers and matrices or the mathematical formulas behind gas turbine engines or calculate the stress and forces in a beam that has a hole drilled in it or do a 20,000 word group assignment when you have a nav the next day? Uni + Flying = hard if you value sleeping.

Really bad points included the constant battle with the flying school about how I wanted to have weekly lessons to get my flying done instead of having 4-8 week gaps because my instructor was 'busy' teaching the cadets. Endless phone calls, emails and meetings and no one could seem to fix that for me. What was meant to be 2 years of flying (getting to CPL) dragged out to 3.5 years.

A lot of people I studied with ended up hating how big and unorganised the flying school was. It can zap your motivation pretty quick when a simple thing like getting a flying lesson booked is near impossible.

I didn't study at RMIT so I'm not sure what their course is like, if you're trying to save time this one looks really quick and cuts out all the university assignment stuff?
C6010 - Diploma of Air Transport (Airline Pilot) - RMIT (http://www.rmit.edu.au/browse;ID=SPGC6010AAUSPC;STATUS=A;PAGE_AUTHOR=%20Program%20G uides;SECTION=1;#STUDENT_EXPS)

Other advice: Look at scholarships. There are ones available for accommodation and all types of wacky stuff.