Goodbye Para Pay?

[Grimweasel]

If this has any truth then goodbye The Parachute Regiment - I would imagine that 2 Para would become 2 Foot? :E

Paratroopers hit by pay cut on return from Afghanistan war - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8536958/Paratroopers-hit-by-pay-cut-on-return-from-Afghanistan-war.html)

[Airborne Aircrew]

Questionable Journalism?

The MoD is struggling with an estimated £1 billion shortfall in its budget for the current financial year. Cutting the so-called Para Pay bonus will save more than £4 million a year. But it will be a significant blow to up to 4,000 soldiers just back from a gruelling tour of Helmand, many of whom take home little more than £1,000 a month.

My calculator says that £4M divided by 4,000 equals 1,000. So Para Pay is £1000/month... Damn, times have changed... I used to get £4/day... According to this they now get £33.33 per day....

BTW. For £4/day they got some damnably fine soldiers back then...

[Clever Richard]

My calculator makes £4m per year divided by 4,000 = £1000 per year or £83.3 per month or £2.73 per day.

CD

[TheWizard]

CD,

That's why he only got £4 a day!! :E

[parabellum]

When I qualified as a pilot in the Army we, (SNCOs), got the same for flying as our colleagues got for jumping out! three pounds and three shillings A WEEK!

[A2QFI]

Flying Pay next? Nothing is inviolate it seems

[captainsuperstorm]

if i was the PM, would ask our boys to pay to fight, pay to jump,...pay to die.

eh! nobody force them.!

they got a job, they got experience, and later they can join another army force, so why we should pay our soldiers..??? think about it?

maybe we should hire chinese soldiers and give them a cup of rice everyday.

better why nor send all these teenagers who do camping in the middle or Madride.

we need to kick some ass in this society!:ouch:

[November4]

According to the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13555162)...

the special supplement of nearly £6 a day in recognition of the extra risks and skills involved in parachuting.

and

Among those affected by the move could be quartermasters and cooks in 16 Air Assault Brigade who are traditionally fully trained to parachute.

A Ministry of Defence spokeswoman said it was right that at a time of public spending restrictions "people who would never be asked to jump out of the back of a plane" might lose the payment.

[Airborne Aircrew]

That's why he only got £4 a day!!

Indeed...

Note to self: Check your maths when beer is involved in posting... :ugh:

[Dengue_Dude]

Also, there will doubtless be a saving in parachutes too . . .

These can be used to arrest the rate at which morale is falling.



Wonder where it all ends . . .

I thought it was bad when I PVR'd in 1993, but I didn't know the half of it.

[glad rag]

Remind me again how much of the mod main building budget was spent on executive office furniture and artwork?

[Wyler]

Or even why the MOD needs to stay in London at all.........................

[Aeronut]

Or even why the MOD needs to stay in London at all.........................

errrr...because it's the capital city

[Grimweasel]

All Spec pay will be under review. Air Despatch pay will be next. Either that or you will only receive it on the days you fly! Pay per Fly. Sounds like some scam Ryan Air would run!!

[SASless]

When was the last Combat Jump for 2 Para?

[timex]

When was the last Op jump for the Raf Regt?

[Airborne Aircrew]

One could respond to the above that it was Op Silkman in Sierra Leone in 2001.

Of course, some wag will claim it wasn't an operational jump because there were reporters on the DZ. I'll respond to that with the following two points and let's see where the conversation goes from there:-



The parachute descent took place during Op Silkman and therefore was carried out as a part of an operation making it an operational jump.
If one thinks back the US intervention into Somalia the SEALs and Marines were met by hordes of cameras and lights - did that make it any less dangerous? It was certainly an operation.

As a PS I'll add that were it not for 18kt winds II Sqn would have jumped onto Port Stanley Airfield in 1982. I know, I got "on the bus, off the bus" at least three times for that and was once lined up behind a C-130 at Lyneham for a non-stop trip before it was scrubbed. 2 PARA went on a civvy boat with a load of stewards who were "light on their loafers" IIRC.... :E

[timex]

AA, I really doubt that any jump by (non SF) Airborne Forces would have happened in 82. We were also warned off for it, but thankfully common sense prevailed..:ok:

[Spurlash2]

Telegraph article HERE (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8539018/Front-line-troops-could-face-pay-cut-on-return-home.html).

[althenick]

We need the Para's if the UK has expeditionary aspirations but why must they be paid this all the time? on top of this why do Submariners get submarine pay when skimmers only get sea pay when (gasp!) AT SEA!

... gone to defence stations...

[Airborne Aircrew]

We need the Para's if the UK has expeditionary aspirations but why must they be paid this all the time? on top of this why do Submariners get submarine pay when skimmers only get sea pay when (gasp!) AT SEA!No defence stations required... Just clear thought... Put yourself in the position of a submariner or a para. Would you bother with the level of commitment and all the crap that goes with it simply to be treated as just another schmuk or would you, reasonably, expect to be given some small reward for your consistent and continuous commitment? £6 a day is nothing for the amount of work these people do daily to remain fit for duty... I ran 6-10 miles a day with a 55lb pack every day for £4 and that was 25+ years ago... Don't tell me I was overpaid, please...

[althenick]

A_A
1st I don't believe that Service personnel could ever be paid enough, But I think most of them know that and lets face it, If its money that is your motivation for joining up then your joining for the wrong reason.

Would you bother with the level of commitment and all the crap that goes with it simply to be treated as just another schmuk or would you, reasonably, expect to be given some small reward for your consistent and continuous commitment? £6 a day is nothing for the amount of work these people do daily to remain fit for duty... I ran 6-10 miles a day with a 55lb pack every day for £4 and that was 25+ years ago... Don't tell me I was overpaid, please...

...I'm sorry but if you wanted to do it then money shouldn't have been a consideration, maybe its me, but having worked at faslavatory for 8 years and seen plenty of JR's turning to for work in BMW's one can only surmise that the pay isn't that bad.

... in fact - as a PTO in the Civil Serpents (LT RN Equiv) I was paid less per day than a Killick Weaponeer RNR (My "Hobby") so yes, you weren't paid enough but more than your civilian counterparts. and BTW - I went to sea for a day on board an SSN and cant understand what all the fuss is about.


...getting well dug in now.. :E

[SASless]

What are we back to in Combat Jumps then....Suez Canal in the 50's?

[RotatingPart]

althenick,

Who exactly are our civilian counterparts? I can't think of anyone employed in the civil service that spends as many nights out of bed in uninviting, often hostile environments doing the type of work done by our soldiers, sailors and airmen . I have no doubt that money was not the driving motivator when we all volunteered our services, but, it certainly plays a part in how long we continue to put up with the separation from our loved ones and the often punishing hours we are required to put in to do more with less.:ugh:

I have no doubt that civil servants have an important role to play, but don't kid yourself on that just because the tax payer pays your wages, you're able to draw a direct comparison with anyone in the Armed Forces.

(Oh, and the Civil Service grade you quoted as a "Lt RN equivilant" is no such thing. It is merely a mechanism for determining what grade of accomadation you are entitiled to should you have to spend the odd night out of bed!) :rolleyes:

[PTT]

If its money that is your motivation for joining up then your joining for the wrong reason.It's rarely the reason for joining, but can be a good reason to stay.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I went to sea for a day on board an SSN and cant understand what all the fuss is about.

I'll bet you've flown in an aircraft too... Not quite the same as jumping out of it though, is it? :ugh:

[Trim Stab]

I ran 6-10 miles a day with a 55lb pack every day for £4 and that was 25+ years ago... Don't tell me I was overpaid, please...


Err, I don't understand the relevance of that argument at all. Why should you get paid more just for running around with a backpack on? That's what infantry do. You may as well argue that skypilots should get extra pay because they are up bothering God every morning and night, or cabbage mechanics should be paid extra for for every furry turd they cremate.

[Heathrow Harry]

Practically mass parachute jumps went out after WW2

right now we'd be hard pressed to get enough planes together to drop a Battalion and when every local kid has an AK-47 the casualty rate would be worse than Arnhem

The Paras are an "elite regiment" the British Army has a real problem with this sort of thing - what they need are more of the PBI but we prefer to keep an antiquated skill instead

[Airborne Aircrew]

TS:

Why should you get paid more just for running around with a backpack on? That's what infantry do.I'm afraid not old chap... An Airborne soldier starts many hours before his battle will begin drawing and prepping kit, weapons, rations, comms etc. He then flies for hours, often at low level before throwing himself from the aircraft with 100+lbs of equipment and 50lbs of parachutes. As he does this he finds himself in a unique situation for an attacker. He's outnumbered and surrounded. Upon landing he reorgs and marches as much as twenty miles with that 100+lbs of kit. Then the battle begins... They begin the process knowing that 10% of them will not survive to see P-Hour +1 and in a worst case scenario 70% will be lost in the first 24 hours. That, dear chap, is why we run so much with heavy weights... Because we start fighting at a point where others would be spent... :}

No infantryman does all that... It's why most infantrymen are infantrymen. Because they either chose not to go through selection or because they are well aware that they are not up to it, (that is not a criticism of them - not everyone can be a submariner either - I sure as hell wouldn't want to be one).

Heathrow:

but we prefer to keep an antiquated skill insteadYet another short sighted opinion. Were we to end up fighting China, India or such powers rather than pee-ant little tinpot dictators in small countries with piddly little cowardly armies then you might be correct. However, since I'm quite confident that you cannot state categorically that we won't be fighting a significant enemy in the future then I'm happy to point out that your opinion is naive. Did you ever throw something away only to think, a few days later, "Darn, I could have used that for this..."? :ugh:

[Trim Stab]

I'm afraid not old chap... An Airborne soldier starts many hours before his battle will begin drawing and prepping kit, weapons, rations, comms etc. He then flies for hours, often at low level before throwing himself from the aircraft with 100+lbs of equipment and 50lbs of parachutes. As he does this he finds himself in a unique situation for an attacker. He's outnumbered and surrounded. Upon landing he reorgs and marches as much as twenty miles with that 100+lbs of kit. Then the battle begins... They begin the process knowing that 10% of them will not survive to see P-Hour +1 and in a worst case scenario 70% will be lost in the first 24 hours. That, dear chap, is why we run so much with heavy weights... Because we start fighting at a point where others would be spent...


AA - been there done that, got the t-shirt and more. I still don't uderstand why you think paras should be paid more than other infantry. Speciality pay should be linked to what is relevant NOW rather than what was relevant fifty years ago.

Speciality pay NOW should go to linguists, int experts, EOD guys. They're today's spearhead soldiers, not paras.

[Airborne Aircrew]

TS:

See my comment to Heathrow above...

[timex]

TS, in that vein so should flying pay..:ok:

[Really annoyed]

I'm afraid not old chap... An Airborne soldier starts many hours before his battle will begin drawing and prepping kit, weapons, rations, comms etc. He then flies for hours, often at low level before throwing himself from the aircraft with 100+lbs of equipment and 50lbs of parachutes. As he does this he finds himself in a unique situation for an attacker. He's outnumbered and surrounded. Upon landing he reorgs and marches as much as twenty miles with that 100+lbs of kit. Then the battle begins... They begin the process knowing that 10% of them will not survive to see P-Hour +1 and in a worst case scenario 70% will be lost in the first 24 hours. That, dear chap, is why we run so much with heavy weights... Because we start fighting at a point where others would be spent... OMG Airborne you are even more of a hero than minidumb. I am however slightly confused as to why your prune name is Airborne Aircrew. You hung underneath some silk and a few strings. You can’t really count that as being aircrew. What you have to realise is that you don't have to be very bright to be a para, in fact the thicker the better as you then don't really realise what you are actually letting yourself in for. If you had worked harder at school you could have joined as a Technician and enjoyed a better standard of living. I mean its easy to be a para all you have to do is turn up collect your gun, get your parachute, fly in a herc and jump out of the door that is open. You even have a mirror tech there to point the way and when you do depart the aircraft the parachute even opens itself for you, and you want extra pay for doing that? Well I suppose the extra £4 stops you from having to claim any benefits from the social.

[Airborne Aircrew]

RA:

Lesson 1: Know your enemy.

OMG Airborne you are even more of a hero than minidumb. I am however slightly confused as to why your prune name is Airborne Aircrew. You hung underneath some silk and a few strings. You can’t really count that as being aircrew.My nickname has two parts... Think!

Lesson 2: Never underestimate your enemy.

What you have to realise is that you don't have to be very bright to be a para, in fact the thicker the better as you then don't really realise what you are actually letting yourself in for. If you had worked harder at school you could have joined as a Technician and enjoyed a better standard of livingI'm earning a nice six figures doing highly technical work. Not everyone wants to do the easy stuff first - some of us wanted some fun first.

You're not a very good troll... One hopes you can afford your internet connection.

[Really annoyed]

My nickname has two parts

So does mine, but I don't get why you would think you were Aircrew as a para. Unless you were counting the bit where you fly in a herc.

[barnstormer1968]

Airborne Aircrew.

I really do think you should be agreeing with TS and his comments.

"AA - been there done that, got the t-shirt and more. I still don't uderstand why you think paras should be paid more than other infantry. Speciality pay should be linked to what is relevant NOW rather than what was relevant fifty years ago."


Bearing in mind his age, he was clearly telling you that during his time as a meat bomb his skills were irrelevant:E





Oh, but he still took the pay for being useless and outmoded in modern times:}

[SASless]

Parachuting is a bit over rated is it not....after all it is just a means of getting to work for Para's and Paratroopers.

[davejb]

I knew a chap who went aircrew, having been a para, I could imagine him having a similar nickname without being confused, I can also imagine slightly dense people struggling to follow the idea, despite hints.

The paras have demonstrated often enough that they are superlative soldiers however delivered to the battlefield, they are bloody tough and run on duracells when they need to - I would have thought that in a world future where we weren't going to fight major conflicts but lots of police actions and suchlike (otherwise we wouldn't be getting rid of the RN, tanks, MPA, and all the other bits and bobs that are confidently expected to be surplus to requirements) then we'd want as high a quality soldier as possible. Please tell me how making the forces into a small, amorphous blob improves our ability to do more with less?

Honestly, it's like watching dogs fighting over scraps here, every time the flaming politicians decide to trim another fiver off the defence budget there's an unholy rush to pick one of our own to have a go at in the hope of drawing blood. I'll laugh my **** off the day the Isle of Man invades.

[althenick]

Hi to all, and thanks for the replies, I'll try and answer them as respectfully as possible as I did not mean to inflame...

I'll bet you've flown in an aircraft too... Not quite the same as jumping out of it though, is it?

Done it for charity - scared the **** out of me' also been on the end of an RAF SK winch - didnt like that either (The Pilot thought I could do with inspecting the port funnel on my ship - either that or he was crap ;) ) - my point is that you do it because you want to do it. if HMG gave you good people a 50% pay increase tomorrow I would be the last to complain. But remember your there by choice.

(Oh, and the Civil Service grade you quoted as a "Lt RN equivilant" is no such thing. It is merely a mechanism for determining what grade of accomadation you are entitiled to should you have to spend the odd night out of bed!)

Then why did I have responsibilty for comms projects that required the navy/ RAF to provide LT and above? I never believed this myself until i became a Project Manager.

And BTW when in Moscow camp (belfast - became my 2nd home) I always got accom in the SR's mess - The officers mess was always full of - officers!

[RotatingPart]

althenick,

Well done you for spending the night in Moscow camp:D, join the club. What do you want - a biscuit? Project Manager, well done again. But as far as where you think you stand in military terms, my statement still stands (ask the RSM at Arborfield who threw all the civil servents who apparently had "equivalent rank" status out of his mess when they decided to book themselves a room and frequent the bar without asking)!

You still haven't answered my first question on who exactly does what we do under the same conditions in the civil service? That is / was the point here!

Have a nice weekend :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

RA:

So does mine, but I don't get why you would think you were Aircrew as a para. Unless you were counting the bit where you fly in a herc. You need to think a little harder dear... I'm done trying to shuffle your thought process along if you can't be bothered to give it a little shove of your own... :ugh:

Althenick:

Done it for charityThere's a tee shirt out there that sums up my feelings for you... It says, (paraphrased):-

So you're a sport parachutist eh?
Until you've stood in the door
In complete Darkness
At eight hundred feet
with one hundred pounds of equipment
Fifty pounds of parachutes
And leaped into the void
You're still a F'ing* Craphat

There... Look... My memory isn't that bad

http://www.hqrafregiment.net/download/file.php?id=1032&mode=view

I think that's fair in this case.. .:ok:


* Hope that doesn't offend too many people

[P6 Driver]

Anyway, on the subject of Para Pay (the original subject prior to the willy waving), I don't see why anyone would receive specialist pay if they are not employed on a tour where those skills will be required - this includes aircrew.

For Parachute Regiment personnel and others in units required to train for and be prepared to parachute, I see no problem with their specialist pay continuing even if they are subsequently not required to jump.

For those on "ground tours" however, I fail to see why the pay should continue until they are posted back to their primary role.

[Airborne Aircrew]

P6Driver:

It used to be that you had to complete 8 jumps per year in order to qualify for Parachute Pay but then I think they let that go by the wayside because an NI tour meant they only had 6 months or less to get the 8 jumps in because they couldn't jump in NI. I don't know if they apply any criteria now other than successfully passed P Coy, Pre-Para, CTC or Hereford and then completed 8 jumps at Brize. I suspect they don't since the cost of each jump has probably become all a bit much. Sad, because there are a couple of "skills" in parachuting in large groups at low level with oodles of kit that need practicing regularly.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

P6 - the reason "specialist pay" continues for aircrew on a tour where their "aircrew" skills are not required is simple: flying pay for aircrew is a retention measure. Pilots particularly have skills that are useful in the outside world, usually for more renumeration than Jo Flt Lt earns. Thus they get paid flying pay as an incentive to stay.

However, our lords and masters decree that, on occasion, aircrew must fill desk jobs. That does not make their "specialist" skills less marketable in the outside world, so if you want to keep them, you have to continue to pay them, not pee them off by making them take a £10k pay cut.

It's not rocket science when it comes to "retention" pay really... the trick is for other "specialist" pay where the pay is well earned if said person is doing the job. The question is, does it make enough of a difference in retention vs training cost to be worth paying them while they do a "desk" job (eg EOD chaps cost quite a wodge of cash to train, and obviously the job they do day to day is crazy, so well worth specialist pay. If you send them away from that job for a tour, do you really want to risk losing that skill and experience for the sake of 3 or so years worth of saving specialist pay).

When we look at the para reg as a whole though, the argument may be that, if they never "jump" in anger, do we need to pay them extra to keep them in, bearing in mind that 90% of the time they do the same dets as every other infantry regiment.... discuss...

[barnstormer1968]

pba target

A quick answer to:

When we look at the para reg as a whole though, the argument may be that, if they never "jump" in anger, do we need to pay them extra to keep them in, bearing in mind that 90% of the time they do the same dets as every other infantry regiment.... discuss...

Is YES.
This is for exactly the same reason that you mention for aircrew, although the pay incentive for paras to leave the Brit army and work for private companies is a much steeper rise than for aircrew in the civvy world.

I suppose some folks will understand the need for pay to specialists, and some won't.

The fact an above poster was paid extra money for lumping a bergen about all day (and I got extra for running...well shuffling slowly lol with a 150 lbs pack) is kind of missing the point. Bergen lumping is not a clever battlefield skill, but the confidence, belief in your ability and fitness its gives you is worth every penny in conflict.

A few quid a day for soldiers who think 'I am going to' rather than 'I'll have a go' is money well spent IMHO.

As per above, the back biting is funny to watch (and I'm joining in too I suppose).
Why do we discuss silly money savings such as flying pay when we should actually be talking of scrapping the entire RAF AD fleet........How long ago did the RAF (in an RAF aircraft!) last shoot down an opponent in combat (don't mention the Jag).

The above is tongue in cheek...But is another capability we pay for, but are not using in combat. Maybe we will now hear from some disgruntled SBS lad who is upset at getting less pay than his SAS mate, despite the SBS requiring you to receive extra training after completing the SAS course.....and then using your specialism daily:}

[Grimweasel]

I know some very bright Para and ex-Para lads. In fact 2 guys from my IOT were Lance Jacks in the Paras. One flies C130Js and the other is now a Typhoon pilot!! They can't all be thick then as some posters would charge!

[British Grenadier]

As an ex- member of the Household Division , Parachutes are not my thing , but , leave their pay alone !!!! , perhaps the MOD should look at how many Generals , Brigadiers that we have , reportderly FOUR TIMES !!!!! more than the US Military !!!!!!!!! :ugh:

[Airborne Aircrew]

I know some very bright Para and ex-Para lads. In fact 2 guys from my IOT were Lance Jacks in the Paras. One flies C130Js and the other is now a Typhoon pilot!! They can't all be thick then as some posters would charge!

It does make one question the intellect of those who make such assertions doesn't it? :hmm:

[Jimlad1]

"Who exactly are our civilian counterparts? I can't think of anyone employed in the civil service that spends as many nights out of bed in uninviting, often hostile environments doing the type of work done by our soldiers, sailors and airmen "

You could start by looking at the thousands of civil servants who willingly deployed to the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan. Sure its not operating directly in the 'close with and kill fuzzy wuzzies' that many people think everyone in HERRICK does, but plenty of CS spend more time outside the wire than many of their military counterparts do. (I've deployed as both CS and as reservist).

"(Oh, and the Civil Service grade you quoted as a "Lt RN equivilant" is no such thing. It is merely a mechanism for determining what grade of accomadation you are entitiled to should you have to spend the odd night out of bed!)"

Please don't start this argument again, its soooooooooo dull. Equiv rank exists because the CS was formed with a rank structure back in the 1860s and has kept it ever since. This rank structure ran roughly paralell to the military one as a guide to messing entitlement, signing off powers and authority for a post (e.g. a C1 is expected to be able to sign off and exercise a similar level of authority and responsibility as a deskbound mil SO1, albeit for 50% of the salary...) and also because the military couldnt cope with the concept of EO, HEO, SEO etc and asked us to explain what that meant in military terms...

In the good old days CS were promoted at the same time scale as their mil equivs, so you'd know a C2 (or HEO then) had the same amount of time served and broad professional experience as an SO2. Sadly thats gone by the by now with more rapid promotion opportunities, but the intent is there.

If you find CS claiming that they are mil equivs, then put them politely and firmly back in their box. They are either insecure idiots or retired officers who wear their retired ranks with more than healthy pride, (in which case treat them with contempt) or the most part are usually fairly naive individuals who work in a rank based environment where the military constantly ask them what their equivalent rank is - hence they start to believe it. Just be nice to them, 99% of them don't mean it. Of course winding up serving mil with the 'you've got to be nice to me because I'm the equivalent of a Galactic Space Field Marshall' is always great sport - my friends and I do it with particularly pompous officers to see how long it takes to get a bite :-)

[snaggletooth]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230

[Airborne Aircrew]

As an ex- member of the Household Division , Parachutes are not my thing , but , leave their pay alone !!!! , perhaps the MOD should look at how many Generals , Brigadiers that we have , reportderly FOUR TIMES !!!!! more than the US Military !!!!!!!!! :ugh:I bet if you equalized that situation you could easily save the £4M it would take to pay those who truly deserve it... and then they can get the Christmas bonuses they deserve too... Or is that a little too un-PC these days? :E

[MOSTAFA]

Airborne Aircrew has got it spot on. Albeit, from experience, jumping at 20k+ plus (in the dark atached to a very large tube) requires equally the same specialist skill.

Please don't blame the toms for a complete lack of strategic bottle on the part of those that supposedly direct them.

I seem to remember that we could go a couple of years without parachuting, in fact some had to be forced into it but; that never affected pay until some bean counter came along. Nor did it mean you might not get called on to utilise that 'specialist' skill at very short notice.

[althenick]

So you're a sport parachutist eh?
Until you've stood in the door
In complete Darkness
At eight hundred feet
with one hundred pounds of equipment
Fifty pounds of parachutes
And leaped into the void
You're still a F'ing* Craphat


Read my post - I'm NOT a phuquing sport parachutist! some juan-kerr talked me into doing it for charity and like the mugg that I am took up the challenge oh and BTW the c*nt that was strapped to my back weighed more than 50 lb's - a lot more ;)

Well done you for spending the night in Moscow camp,

7 weeks actually but lets not split hairs

What do you want - a biscuit?

No the 5 squid a night subby was enough for living in a portakabin and eating mil scran - seriously - I liked it, loved the people, but always went home broke (5ver was enough to get you hand-carted in the SR/Sergeants mess - BRILLIANT!)

Project Manager, well done again.

No - The MoD had (and still has) ZERO idea on how to run a project - whatever size it is - It was basically a job - sorry "Appointment" - that was tied up with so much bureaucracy you could not get FA done whilst your "Customer" - that is the poor barstewards in uniform - had to suck on it. Left for that reason and told them so.

ask the RSM at Arborfield who threw all the civil servents who apparently had "equivalent rank" status out of his mess when they decided to book themselves a room and frequent the bar without asking

... And quite right too - that used to erk me as well - some of these CS pr1cks seemed to think they had some sort of divine right to use someones home as their own, no respect - not even a please or thank you. In Moscow the Mil used to make me feel very welcome - they really didn't have a choice - but I always made sure that I re-payed their hospitality in some small way.

Despite all of this my original post still stands that is

you join the branch that you want to be in


If you volunteer for specialist training then the clue is in the wording - volunteer.
If you don't like either don't volunteer or leave


I'm sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but as I've said - if you join the services for money - then your joining for the wrong reason.

... here's my own thoughts - get rid of ALL the allowances and just give everybody Tax free pay - and with the money saved from the admin costs of taxing service personnel - give all of you a pay rise!

[Airborne Aircrew]

althenick:


... here's my own thoughts - get rid of ALL the allowances and just give everybody Tax free pay - and with the money saved from the admin costs of taxing service personnel - give all of you a pay rise! Funny... That's the only sensible thing I have ever seen you write... I have questioned the logic of taxing people who work for the government since I first worked for them in 1977...

Read my post - I'm NOT a phuquing sport parachutist! Hopefully then, you got my point. If you didn't then I'll make the following statement. It really doesn't matter how many free-fall jumps you/anyone has/have done from whatever altitude you/anyone has/have done them from - be it a thousand or twenty thousand feet - until you have endured the incessant crap brought down on you that is required by the various services to be allowed to go to No. 1 PTS and have subsequently lobbed yourself out of perfectly serviceable kites at what is really "low-level" separated by only 1/2 a second from the chap you will impact at 120mph under the aircraft if you leave your door at the same time he leaves his, have managed to avoid/steer away from others in your stick and safely lowered your 100+lb container, (so as not to kill your mate with it), and then, with the ten or so seconds remaining in your descent, set yourself up for a landing that you have really very little control over such that when/if you get up you can fight a battle - possibly immediately then you really can't tell those of us that being a sport parachutist is even close. To sit there and tell me that you "jumped" strapped to a jump dummy is preposterous. You didn't jump... He did... You followed because you were tied to him.

I'll give you credit for going up there and not throttling him to remain inside the aircraft. I will retract all credit given for getting into an argument about "Airborne" and insinuating that what you have done was even close to what "Airborne" really is. For that, Shame on you!

[althenick]

AA
I'm not arguing that your job is better/worse/the same as any other in the services. My point is this - YOU VOLUNTEERED. And as such don't merit anymore/less than the poor sod who is in the front line in AFG/Libya/Iraq or wherever the next big adventure is going to be.

Sorry - that's the way I see it, though I will say this, If you make the extra effort in the Armed services, it should be recognized. But not necessarily with money.

And BTW - I thought about throttling said "Buddy" (Some buddy he turned out to be) but being restrained and 180 to him i couldn't get my hands round LOL.

Q - are there many Gay Free Fallers? its just that I felt a small lump in the base of my spine...

[Airborne Aircrew]

Q - are there many Gay Free Fallers? its just that I felt a small lump in the base of my spine...

I dunno but you should get it looked at - might be nasty... ;)

[Grabbers]

Shirley the question should be are there any hetero PJI's?

[davejb]

I'm not arguing that your job is better/worse/the same as any other in the services. My point is this - YOU VOLUNTEERED. And as such don't merit anymore/less than the poor sod who is in the front line in AFG/Libya/Iraq or wherever the next big adventure is going to be.


Surely the same argument then should be that everyone gets the same pay, regardless of their job? WTF should a group captain get more than an SAC? Outranking other people and having to be responsible for them etc is surely offset by the generally better standard of living, greater freedom to determine ones own working week, and inner joy at the way even your worst jokes attract an audience response that makes you think you could have Frnakie Boyle on the run.

[Really annoyed]

you could have Frnakie Boyle on the run.

Frnakie Boyle?

[FJ2ME]

Whilst the meat-bomb baiting is obviously entertaining, you clowns are missing the essential point of this matter completely.

Specialist pay is rarely a massive incentive to join a particular branch/regiment/ship but is, without doubt, a massive retention measure.

If we take the example of flying pay for pilots, the only spec. pay on which I am qualified to talk, the simple fact is that if flying pay is deleted then pilots will walk. And without pilots we won't have much of an Air Force. Allow me to elaborate.

In a time where I see many of my colleagues been squeezed into desk jobs as their next posting to an aircraft has vanished in the wake of the SDSR cuts, how many of those talented people do you think would stay if it meant a 25% pay cut? Now add into that the blossoming of civilian aircrew recruiting, the subterranean level of morale in all but the Typhoon force, and the reduction in capabilities and bases already announced, and seriously who would stay?

Quite simply the answer is very few, probably none of those squeezed into ground jobs. And then, my pedigree chums, we are fuc£ed. Good job we've got plenty of young, naive and cheap pilot recruits in the training system to take their places...oh no thats right, we sacked half of them, and gave the other half a thoroughly good brief on how **** the RAF is at personnel management.

You can debate the rights, wrongs and where-with-alls of the argument, but you cannot argue the facts: If you force someone into a ground job and then force a pay cut on them, pilots will leave, fact. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[althenick]

Surely the same argument then should be that everyone gets the same pay, regardless of their job? WTF should a group captain get more than an SAC? Outranking other people and having to be responsible for them etc is surely offset by the generally better standard of living, greater freedom to determine ones own working week, and inner joy at the way even your worst jokes attract an audience response that makes you think you could have Frnakie Boyle on the run.

Ha Ha - Nice one! - but we are talking about allowances here not pay in return for effort and responsibilty- hardly the same is it?

Whilst the meat-bomb baiting is obviously entertaining, you clowns are missing the essential point of this matter completely.

Specialist pay is rarely a massive incentive to join a particular branch/regiment/ship but is, without doubt, a massive retention measure.

If we take the example of flying pay for pilots, the only spec. pay on which I am qualified to talk, the simple fact is that if flying pay is deleted then pilots will walk. And without pilots we won't have much of an Air Force. Allow me to elaborate.

In a time where I see many of my colleagues been squeezed into desk jobs as their next posting to an aircraft has vanished in the wake of the SDSR cuts, how many of those talented people do you think would stay if it meant a 25% pay cut? Now add into that the blossoming of civilian aircrew recruiting, the subterranean level of morale in all but the Typhoon force, and the reduction in capabilities and bases already announced, and seriously who would stay?

Quite simply the answer is very few, probably none of those squeezed into ground jobs. And then, my pedigree chums, we are fuc£ed. Good job we've got plenty of young, naive and cheap pilot recruits in the training system to take their places...oh no thats right, we sacked half of them, and gave the other half a thoroughly good brief on how **** the RAF is at personnel management.

You can debate the rights, wrongs and where-with-alls of the argument, but you cannot argue the facts: If you force someone into a ground job and then force a pay cut on them, pilots will leave, fact.

Mate at the mo' that argument will fall on some very deaf ears - I believe pilot training was cut by 40%, a significant amount of AT is now done by civilian A/c, UAV's are coming on stream, No MPA, no Harrier, and pretty soon no tornado,

Q- If your not wanted - why would any organization pay to retain you?

[davejb]

Sorry RA,
fat fingers and old age. That reminds me, please repost your paypal link so I can contribute to your "Really Annoyed Syrup of Figs Fund", constipation like yours is nothing to laugh at and I'd like to do my bit to help.