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View Full Version : Question on Emirates- please don't merge into one size fits all thread


brownstar
21st May 2011, 08:15
Just had a question. What would be a typical roster for a month in emirates. On the careers info they say 8 days off per month. Is this true. I currently get more than this. Although there are many things that look great, big planes etc., things that matter except money are, rest time, time away from work, which are the best worst routes etc. how you are spoken to by middle management, all the real stuff. Any info greatly appreciated.
If replying don't just rant. Try to give some facts, ie work ,days off pattern , route combinations , how hard it is , stessors that people dont normally know about.
I have watched the pilot shortage videos, their darkest hour videos . Priceless!

Orangewing
21st May 2011, 08:37
Days off depends entirely on your fleet. On the 777, I never have had just eight days off, it is always more; Sometimes 15, especially if you do ULR flying. Can even get 7 off in a row near the top bid months, Airbus guys fair less well and can often only get 8 off in a month as far as I am aware. Middle management? Shocking……

Pay is ok, but not keeping up with inflation. Roster stability generally very good as an F/O on the triple.

MosEisley
21st May 2011, 10:02
If you get stuck on the bus you will get 8-11 days off. Combination of medium and short haul and flipping from front side to back side flying. For your 8 days of you will fly 80-85 hours per month. Once you get MFF qual'd, life improves a bit but not much. You will use your 8-11 days off to recover from flying.

Just 330 flying will send you mainly to Africa and India. Rarely to Europe and that's it. It is hard, you will be tired. 80% of layovers, when you get them, end with a red eye back to DXB. Night India turn arounds will kick your a$$.

340 flying will also send you to Africa and to China. No more ULR. The longest flight you do will be Dakar or Shanghai. Both about 10 hours depending on winds. You will be a little less tired but not much.

Good luck with your decision.

brownstar
21st May 2011, 10:25
Good info. Do you guys get standby days, if so what are the rules. Is the roster fairly random, do you get one day off in seven. How does it work.
Thanks for your replies

nosewheelfirst
21st May 2011, 11:37
SBY shifts are generally covered through your reserve month. Which to be honest is a pain in the a**e as you don't know what you are doing till 6pm the day before. Although saying that I ended up not doing too much work about 45 hrs on the 777. When on standby you have to be ready for pick up in 30 mins so you are tied to your accommodation or very close by.
You get your 1 in 7 days off.

Laker
21st May 2011, 11:48
You are only on standby one month a year. But for that month the company basically owns you. It's hard to make any plans. The 777 schedules are much better than the Airbus. One thing that can be a little misleading is rest days are not counted as days off. But you are obviously at home and not working. So you might have 3 or 4 extra days off per month that are called "rest days" instead of off days and do not count towards the minimums. I've never had less than 14 days free from work on the 777 except for my standby month.

stu_b77w
21st May 2011, 13:32
I am an FO on the 777 and have looked at my last few rosters. Have to say that we get it pretty easy compared compared to the captains:

Mar 7 leave 10 off 4 rest
Apr 5 leave 9 off 6 rest
May 3 leave 11 off 6 rest

average about 67 hrs a month

Reckon it might change towards the end of the year due to the amount of new aircraft arriving !!

brownstar
21st May 2011, 13:36
Reserve month. I take it there are rostered days off in this month. My understanding is that you have a reserve month, 42 days annual leave( of which 21-28 days are required to be taken in a row). Is the roster published ahead of time so that for instace you can see what days you will have off the following month. In planing the rest of your days off can they be taken ad hoc or other combination. Ie with rostered days off tagged on.
I know I'm asking always about days off, but I've been doing this long enough to know it's important for quality of life. What routes are the 777 on.
Any other info you think I should know that you wished you had known before joining would also help. Thanks for your quality answers and your responses.

Gillegan
21st May 2011, 13:41
Emirates interpretation of this is different from other carriers. While most interpret this as no more than 6 days of work before a day off, Emirates applies it as no more than 7 consecutive days of work before a day off.

MosEisley
21st May 2011, 14:09
There are no rostered days off in a reserve month. You'll know by 6pm the day before. You'll get 8-9 days off in a reserve month. You may not work a lot but you will be on call with a 45 minute call out so basically house arrest. Call out periods are 8 hours and they do not count toward your max duty time like in the states. They could call you at 7:59 into your call out and send you on a max duty period.

If you are looking for a job with lots of time off and flexible scheduling, this is not the place for you. You will not be able to travel the world on your free time since you will never get more than 3-5 days off in a row. Leave will be the only time you can travel. You might get a day or two off on either side of your leave but don't count on it.

Flight benefits here are a joke. We basically get ID90 on our own carrier with one ALT per year. You can fly on any other carrier for the same price as EK, its pathetic but flying J class home is pretty nice. No jumpseat either if the plane is full. I once talked to a guy waiting for 4 days to get out of JFK back to DXB.

If QOL is your priority, as it should be, demand the 777. You will hate the Airbus schedules and "lifestyle." If I'd known I would have insisted on the 777 or not come at all. You have that leverage now. Just make sure they stick to it. You might show up thinking you're going Boeing and end up with a side stick in your hand.

Laker
21st May 2011, 14:20
that is good advice to insist on the 777. The lifestyle is night and day from the 330. I think it's safe to say the Boeing flying is easier than 330/340. One leg and off to the hotel in Singapore, Bangkok, LAX, Milan, etc. You do get some turnarounds but nowhere near what the 330 guys deal with. If you take the 330 you will one day get the 380 with it's very nice lifestyle but you have to put up with 3 years of busting your as@.

I disagree with MosEisley regarding the flight benefits. The lack of the jumpseat does suck. But being able to buy confirmed seats (ID 50) is a very nice benefit in my opinion. Otherwise it's standby with ID 90's. You also have to consider the fact that a Business class seat at EK is much different from a business class seat at most US legacies. The USA is one of the few regions where pilots are able to fly on any airline for free, with access to the jumpseat if the plane is full. You won't find guys from other parts of the world expecting that benefit. Except maybe Spain and some parts of South America,

sheikmyarse
21st May 2011, 15:14
and the rest of the world...

Alconguin Crusader
21st May 2011, 17:42
There are no flight benfits.
You have to pay to ride your own airline. Enough said.
Then they won't even allow jumpseats. WTF! That is a zero cost item.
They don't have a proper trip trading system. You have to find another pilot and hopes he agrees to switch with you and then that the two of you are leagal. It is not proper at all.
Long haul should be working 10-12 days a month. Here you are lucky to get that many days off a month. You are tired and looking the worse for ware. You will have trouble sleeping for sure.
You will have to call in sick every two to three months just to recover.
Is this the job you want in the country your looking for?
Since the currency here is pegged to the $ the UAE is going to have runaway inflation for sure. Your salary will not go as far as you think it will by a long shot.

stu_b77w
22nd May 2011, 06:43
Brownstar

I dont want to get into a slanging match on the forum. Despite what you might read on Pprune there are a lot of happy guys in EK. I guess it all depends on personal circumstances.
For me I think the staff travel is good, I get lots of days off in a row and get home to Europe most months. How ever its not a commuting job.!!!
PM me if you want more info!!

brownstar
22nd May 2011, 08:56
Thank for all your info. I do appreciate your effort in replying. What would be say a typical roster,or likely roster over say a 6/7 day period. How do you generally feel after it, is it just a killer or something you get accustomed to after a period of time.

777boyindubai
22nd May 2011, 10:34
Hi Brownstar,

A lot of good advice has been written in the replies above. I note that Stu (with his two posts) says there are lots of happy guys here. I don't see that many at all.

There are still many issues re fatigue, flight ops eg AAR, poor rostering etc. Please do use the forum to ask whatever you feel will assist your decision.

I am sure that there are many guys in a similar situation to you that are following the thread.

Stu, forgive me in advance if you are not management, but I think many of us don't see it through the rose tinted specs that you do.

Happy Flying :ok:

Mr Good Cat
22nd May 2011, 12:45
To be fair, it's all relative to what you were doing before and your reasons for coming here.

I previously worked for a major LoCo. I was quite happy there until the last year when I could see the direction the Company was heading in so I decided that was the right time to come and achieve my long-haul / widebody goals on the 777 in Emirates. And for the 'flying' reasons it's easily the best job in the world in that respect (on the 777 anyway) - a bigger range of destinations to see than any other carrier from 30 minute hops to Muscat, to 18 hour treks to LA.

Lifestyle is a mixed bag - plenty of days off for me (13-15 usually) and about 65-80 hours a month... BUT... there's a lot of night-flying, 3 am departures, minimum rest downroute etc which can all take a lot of getting used to. It can be quite tiring mentally, even if the physical demands on the aircraft are not as intense as those on a 6 sector LoCo.

Time to command is running at about 4 years at the moment, probably reducing slightly this year but for new joiners I'd expect 5-6 years at least.

Fleet management? Never met them, only hear from them in emails. Have to say though my biggest disappointment on joining EK was finding the closed-door attitude to the front-line staff - the spate of sackings that happened etc. However EK is still by far the closest thing you'll get to a Western carrier out here - it's light years ahead of EY and QR may as well be a Labour Camp for aviators... BUT this is the middle east and it is endemic here. After all the place has gone from 3rd World to a 'modern' civilisation if I can call it that in only a couple of decades. It's easy to forget this when you sip on a Starbucks by the Marina, so keep your head down and your record clean and know the rules... otherwise your little adventure could come to an end rather and spectacularly quickly...:eek:

Staff travel is good compared to most airlines, especially LoCo's. Some nice discounts on hotels too with the EK group so have had some nice breaks away in the Maldives, Seychelles and Mauritius.

The pay is okay. Slightly better than most but not on the same level as the Far Eastern Legacy's... but then again you'll have your command a hell of a lot quicker which will more than make up for it.

However, don't come to EK just for the money. Inflation IS a big problem, and I would go as far saying that it is actually MORE expensive to live here now than in many European countries. Sure, some things are a lot cheaper due to Labour costs but most of your Western lifestyle activities ARE more costly. Eating out, coffee shops, kids activities etc. If you're coming here as a family be prepared to live modestly and sensibly and certainly NEVER EVER borrow money out here to fund an unnecessary extravagance such as a fancy car you don't need. It may be tempting when you see the neighbour's Porsche but I can assure that was NOT acquired through EK's 'generous' salary...:}

A common bone of contention out here is the weather... This is the one thing I can't get my head around - people come here by choice then bitch about it being hot. At what point in the application / interview process did they get misled into thinking that a desert would be cool and lush...? If you don't like the heat don't come here, simple as. :ugh: It IS hot and it IS dry. You wouldn't go skiing if you didn't like the snow would you? Expect a range of temps from 21 in Jan to 50 in July.

Training here has a bad reputation from the past ( well on the 777 anyway ) but I have been lucky and generally only had good experiences. Bear in mind however that it's a 'teach yourself' operation and you need to spend all available time off during your initial training studying the Ops Manuals... you're expected to know them inside out by the time you do your line training.

Best of luck in your decision.:ok:

donpizmeov
22nd May 2011, 12:59
Good cat, are you willing to bet on a new joiner having a command in 5 to 6 years? The last Boeing will be delivered in under three years. Fleet over 150 now and planned to be 250 by 2020. That would mean the last 300ish on the FO list now would be the top 300ish of the FO list in 2020 wouldn't it?

The Don

Mr Good Cat
22nd May 2011, 13:10
Good cat, are you willing to bet on a new joiner having a command in 5 to 6 years? The last Boeing will be delivered in under three years. Fleet over 150 now and planned to be 250 by 2020. That would mean the last 300ish on the FO list now would be the top 300ish of the FO list in 2020 wouldn't it?

The Don

Well you're probably right Don - I was guessing at that figure and my intention was to put the point across that Commands are coming quickly now but new joiners will be waiting considerably longer even accounting for retirements and resignations. Therefore you shouldn't come simply for a quick command and nothing else.:ouch:

It will still come a lot quicker than in all the other Legacy carriers though so may be a consideration for some.

hlelliot
22nd May 2011, 17:07
Can anyone tell me what the chances are of getting 777 with a A320 rating? Sounds like 777 is the fleet to be on

Cheers

fatbus
22nd May 2011, 17:42
I'm not wanting to stir things but for new joiners airbus is the fleet to be on. Transfer to the 380 sooner than you think , 330 retirements leaving only 343/5 between @2014-17 combined with transfer/upgrade to 350. What A/C will be doing the night turns when the 330 is gone?

brownstar
23rd May 2011, 12:36
I would like to thank all of you whom replied to my questions. These answers combined with various other posts I have read on the middle east website have lead me to conclude that it isn't worth me coming out to work there.
The Emirates package isn't acceptable to me, it doesn't enhance my work life balance, or financial situation.
This is not an egotistic , ( i currenlty fly 850-900 hours per 12 months )but rather a considered decision based on information that wasn't perhaps available to those of you who have joined and wished they hadn't. I have been in aviation for sometime now and what is not acceptable to me maybe fine for others though.
Observations I think apply to all airlines and think that would be wise to be adopted to emirates, treat you staff fairly and justly, if your staff are unhappy with your managers; there may well be something wrong with the managers, don't treat your staff badly, don't always let the accountants dictate what is best for the company ( they are there to manage the finances of the company, not the company ). Consider the work life balance of your people under you. ( if you haven't done their job for an extended period, and see the problems, don't ask them to, long term, do something you wouldn't be prepared to do given there circumstances).
Stop changing terms and conditions of employment for your employees to their detriment. It makes people feel they have less control over their lives.

People may think I'm crazy about the accountancy statement, it's not my quote but one told to me by the owner and head of a multinational company, a company started by him which at the time of his retirement was the largest company in their industry, in the world.

This might sound like pie in the sky thinking but I think it's the only way forward.

I want flying as a part of my life, not to be my life !

Good luck.