Travel in Europe without passport?

[G-Atlast]

I recently had an opportunity to go on a club flyout to Ostend. Unfortunately I did not check my passport until a couple of weeks before the event and when I did I found that it had expired!:O While I applied for a new one immediately, it did not (hardly surprisingly) turn up in time for the trip. This led me to do some further investigations and as far as I can see, for travel within the EU by an EU citizen it is only necessary to have an EU approved official form of identity, not necessarily an actual passport. As I have a current UK photo-id driving licence (one of the official valid forms of ID) this should in theory be acceptable. Has anybody here actually travelled using alternative ID (especially via GA), and if so how did you get on? The GENDEC form only refers to passport numbers as ID and when I phoned AOPA for their opinion they weren't sure either way. A check of the Belgium Embassy website clearly states that a passport is required for entry- surely this cannot be be correct in the wonderful world of Europe :rolleyes:? Rather then cause any problems for the others on the trip I decided to miss out this time and put it down to experience.

[Capetonian]

There seem to be many grey areas but my understanding is that for travel within the Schengen zone, which GB is not part of, you do not need a passport, but you do need acceptable documentary proof that you are an EU citizen or resident.

To travel to/from GB, you would need a passport.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Sorry, no beginning of a definite answer - but I can't help wondering why you didn't ask in Ostend. Either call the airport operator directly - the number is in the AIP - or I should think the nice people at NZVC would be glad to offer advice.

That said, the Brits have decided to let Europe's best wonder pass them by, for good or for bad. And I do recall that, as a Belgian citizen, I found British entry control more than satisfied with my simple identity card. But then, do I recall there is no such thing as in identity card in the UK, so it has to be either a full-blown passport or secondary proof like a driver's or pilot's license?

[patowalker]

A UK photo driver's licence is only acceptable as ID in the UK.

EU nationals and citizens of Switzerland, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway can enter the UK and each other's countries with a national indentity card.

I seem to recall we were not too enthusiastic about getting our own ID cards.

[Capetonian]

EU nationals and citizens of Switzerland, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway can enter the UK and each other's countries with a national indentity card.

In theory. I know of cases where overzealous check in staff have refused to allow EU citizens with a national ID card to board flights to the UK.

[Anonystude]

You might well get out of the UK fine, but I suspect you need your passport to prove your British Citizenship (or similar) when you get back.

[patowalker]

We should abolish the Border Agency and let check-in staff do the job for free. :)

[Contacttower]

I'm fairly certain a UK drivers licence is NOT a valid document for travel from the UK to the rest of the EU.

As it happens on the majority of trips to Europe I have not had my passport checked, certainly I didn't coming into Brussels Charleroi last year. Also coming back into a non-designated airports in the UK having sent a GAR form I've never known customs/immigration actually turn up to check. Probably not worth the risk though because formally one should carry it in the UK's absence of a national identity card.

[jxc]

You can go to Ireland with your UK drivers licence but that is it

[IO540]

There is stuff in the press about Schengen being dismantled, to the extent that passport checks will be coming back.

Anyway, if you fly an N-reg ;) a passport is mandatory - this is from the office of the FAA chief counsel. A driving license with a picture is not sufficient despite apparently meeting the requirements of the FARs, for some reason I don't recall.

[Whirlygig]

To travel to/from GB, you would need a passport. Apart from to/from Republic of Ireland ... photo ID only need there now and maybe not even that for a private flight.

Cheers

Whirls

[patowalker]

A driving license with a picture is not sufficient despite apparently meeting the requirements of the FARs, for some reason I don't recall.

The FAR's refer to driving licences issued by States, of the United type, rather than nation, and then only to cross-check against the non-photo pilot's licence.

Presumably the requirement to carry a driver's licence will be dropped when photo pilot licences become mandatory.

[1800ed]

I went as a passenger to Oostende on a day trip. I forgot my passport so I had the pleasure of sitting in the aircraft on the ramp for a day - the man at border control said that was the UK wasn't a Schengen country I couldn't come in.

[Contacttower]

I went as a passenger to Oostende on a day trip. I forgot my passport so I had the pleasure of sitting in the aircraft on the ramp for a day - the man at border control said that was the UK wasn't a Schengen country I couldn't come in.

Sounds like you made the right choice by staying at home then G-Atlast...;)

[Pilot DAR]

I once entered Germany at Bremerhaven on a private flight in a DC-3, from Ireland (where we had just been in the "in transit" lounge only - not cleared in by immigration). There were no German authorities around, so the air traffic controller stamped our passports - later in the afternoon, after we were settled in, and had had a nice lunch.

Last year, I flew from Amsterdam on KLM, to Bergen, Norway, and had my passport in hand upon arrival. Not only did the Norwegian authorities not ask to see it, they would not stamp it when I asked.

I don't know what the EU rules are, but they are apparently much more relaxed than those for crossing the Canada/US border! Last week, when flying commercial to California, US immigration would not let me enter the US, until I could produce a California street address where I would be staying. Lucky my client had emailed me my local hotel reservation, or I'd have been refused entry! Oh, and passports are mandatory for Canadians entering the US....

[IO540]

Usually, nobody cares if you are leaving their country. Why should they care?

But there are exceptions (especially Greece, Italy, Spain) and you never know...

On arrival, it usually does get looked at but again there are exceptions.

If you pass through an airport where there is H24 police presence then it will most likely be looked at, because they need to keep up their workload.

[patowalker]

Usually, nobody cares if you are leaving their country. Why should they care?

Because you might owe them money? I have worked in at least three countries where locally employed foreigners were required to prove their income tax payments were up-to-date before being allowed out. This involved providing the tax authorities with a bank guarantee and the whole process took about three days.

[Capetonian]

Passport control when you leave some countries is as stringent as when you enter, SA is a case in point, they want to make sure as stated that you have paid your taxes, aren't a known criminal (other than members of the ANC) , didn't vote for the National Party, paid your taxes and speeding fines, and so on, and above all that if you are a non-resident, you didn't overstay your visa.

[IO540]

Sure, but I was referring to civilised countries.

Originating from Czechoslovakia, I know about "border control" :)

But border control is de facto nonexistent in the civilised West - unless you try to bring in a busload of Vietnamese :)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Sure, but I was referring to civilised countries.
There aren't that many of those.

Not if you include in your definition of "civilised", as I do, that the police don't routinely wander around carrying guns.

[IO540]

There is a slight difference between the former Iron Curtain countries, which positively did not want anybody leaving (unless of retirement age) and would shoot to kill anybody attempting so, and the others referred to.

Sure the USA keeps tabs on people coming and going, nowadays, because half the developing world would like to go and live there given half a chance. The USA however also suffers from the immigration people being mostly ex McD idiots, delaying me for a few hours due to an expired (2006) M1 visa because a school I was going to train at (CRM) refused to advise them that I never did train there.

Actually you could leave SA easily enough, on a holiday for example. Many people left SA to avoid military service.

In Europe or the USA, there is no apparent reason for exit Customs or Immigration and, as I say, your passport is rarely looked at in Europe except at H24-police airports.

[FirstOfficer]

I have only used my passport a couple of times when I went to Australia, within the EU I always use my national ID card and so far, after all these years I never had a single problem using it.

[Contacttower]

I must say my experience of US immigration is not great either. I had to wait in line for almost two hours at JFK just to pass through immigration when I was last there; while in the queue a number of Spanish speakers (I was coming from Argentina) tried to ask the woman who was marshaling the queue something in Spanish, she replied that this was the USA and that they should try and learn English...:ugh: Quite ironic considering the friendly image of US immigration personal being played over and over again on the TV screens in the hall we were in...

When I was coming to the US to do my FAA IR in 2008 entering at Miami at first the guy refused to believe my I-20 form was the original, he kept claiming that it was a copy, despite it obviously not being. Eventually some sort of supervisor came who agreed that yes it was an original. I had no problem with this as such but the guy who dealt with me was incredibly off hand and made no attempt to be polite or appear helpful.

I love the US a lot (my girlfriend is American) but the immigration desk is the first contact with authority when one enters the country and the first impression a visitor gets of it...too often recently it has been a bad one...which is a shame.

[IO540]

You know this as fact or just a wild ass over exaggeration on your part?

I know it as a fact.

What might you have expected them to have done under the circumstances?

Given that this was 2008, I would have expected the US Immigration officials to use their brains and understand that a 2006 visa is no longer relevant. I suggested they go to faa.gov where they can see I trained and completed my training at a different 141 school, but they told me they have no internet access :ugh:

[Johnm]

If anyone checks (rare) you need a passport. I once spent two days in France while working on the Channel Tunnel construction and only realised I'd forgotten my passport on the ferry coming back. A Channel Tunnel site pass got me back into the UK :-)

[Jan Olieslagers]

I would have expected the US Immigration officials to use their brains

Officials never use their brains. They apply procedures. I really believed you intelligent enough to be aware.

[AfricanEagle]

As a PPL flying an european registered aircraft I have never had problems entering exiting countries in Europe, East Europe and Turkey. I always carry my national identity card and passport but often I have entered/exited countries just using my AOPA Air Crew card.

[IO540]

I've never had a problem either (travelling by GA) but have had to show the passport in quite a lot of places, as described.

Luggage is something else. At many places, one ends up in the airline passenger queue as the only option. The x-ray people have to go through the motions but have to let it go, whatever they see in the backpack in the way of sharp tools, etc. You get accompanied by some staff member, having used the words "private pilot" several times. The only place where I actually had stuff confiscated was Norwich airport where they confiscated my toothpaste, and the b*stards even had a big laugh about it. Even at Tirana, where I got considerable hassle, they didn't do that.

[mad_jock]

To the original OP's question.

No it is not a very wise idea.

You can fly quite happily around europe for days with out ever being asked to produce it. And even get back into the UK without border control turning up.

But if you do require to produce it and you don't have it all hell will occur and in some countries France for example they will put you in jail until everything is sorted out. Also some countries Holland for example if you don't have it on you walking around the streets you will get an on the spot fine of something like 100 euros, driving license doesn't cut the mustard either.

Saying that though even if you don't have a passport some countries will allow you to enter as long as they know about it prior to you arriving. The Dutch seem quite cool about this. An elderly pax on a charter (2 day wedding) didn't have a passport we phoned them and faxed through some docs and when arriving they issue her a letter. Getting back in the UK though was more of an issue but one of the pax had contacts, which I wasn't happy about because if they do take exception to you bring someone in without a passport the PIC is liable for 2k fine.

[Q-RTF-X]

Interesting thread; here’s my two-penneth. I’ve spent 50 plus years in aviation in various different capacities and, for the latter 30+, amassed a lot of international travel as a passenger on commercial flights, on a GD as crew sometimes on pretty long ferry flights and also as a coordinator on large aircraft VIP flights and a load master on private cargo flights. A lot of my travel has been to what may be considered ‘difficult’ locations. I’ve certainly experienced some challenging moments but always avoided being thrown in the pokey. Here is my advice ...

Don’t look towards the bottom of the list to see what might be acceptable. As a start, if you are going to be involved in aviation and likely to travel (for business or recreation), get a passport and keep it valid, never mind those you tell you it should not be necessary, DO IT. Keep all other ancillary ID’s and similar documents valid and available (the more the merrier). Always maintain a creative mind; my status as ‘crew’ on a ferry/delivery flight was once questioned but the matter quickly resolved by production of an FAA Aircraft Dispatchers Licence (mostly I suspect due to it looking very similar to an FAA Pilots Licence). Always remain calm and polite. In simple terms BE PREPARED and do not pay too much attention to what the minimum requirements are, aim high; overkill is better in the long run. Enjoy your travels; I wish I was young again :)