Typhoon v Merlin?

[rogcal]

This morning I had a grandstand view of a Typhoon and a Merlin? (never was much good at large helo identification) carrying out a low level exercise over my strip here on the South Lincs fens.

The helo was jinking around the sky (never above a 100ft) trying to avoid the Typhoon.

Boy, was it a sight for my old eyes to see so much activity in the skies over the Fens since the Harriers were withdrawn.

Very rarely do I see a Typhoon at low levels (except when practising formation flying for a fly-past) and to have one pulling some seriously tight manouveres at low level with the burners going was awesome to this old PPL.

Just one question, am I right in assuming this exercise is intended to get the Typhoon ready for low level attack deployment (i.e.) replacing the Harrier's low level role. If that's the plan then get the Harrier back now as the helo pilot was running rings around the Typhoon, if gaining target aquisition was the name of the game.

Apologies in advance for posting on here but as I said, an awesome sight and just wanted to share the experience.

[Pontius Navigator]

Rogcal, a meatbox nav told me it was something like hare and hounds or some such. Mixing with a helo is a waste of avtur.

Better haul off and wax him with a PW IV.

[Vortex81]

Apologies in advance for posting on here...Why? It's a forum, posting is what it's for.

[rogcal]

A little digging and I found this and as running till July, more to come, I hope!

EXERCISE PASHTUN PANTHER - 2 MAY - 8 JUL 11
Exercise PASHTUN PANTHER consists of 10 x 5 day exercises from 2nd May - 8 July 11. There will be Rotary Wing and various Fast Jet aircraft operating in LFA 5 for the duration of the Exercise.

[Green Bottle 2]

Rogcal,

don't be fooled by what you saw, I have fought a Typhoon in a Merlin and it was a turkey shoot - they don't really need to mix it low level with the helos to dispatch them.

GB2

[Corporal Clott]

Turning about with a helo was always just a bit of fun to try and get a guns solution. The battle had been over with a Fox 3 and Fox 2 on the way to the merge. Of course you could always go supersonic over the top that would wipe out the helo - in the same way a low level Tornado did to a Winnebago back in the early 90s on a Red Flag. Surprised the Winnebago driver didn't have the supersonic area marked on his road map!!! Luckily, the driver got away with bumps and bruises (and a new campervan).

[Tourist]

Here is an honest question.
Having done plenty of fighter affil etc, I have always heard people say "we would have you with a missile/supersonic pass/bomb" etc
Has anybody ever actually done it? I mean with real weapons against either an enemy or a drone helicopter that was controlled properly at 5ft in amongst the ground/terrain?
I've never been convinced it would be so simple, but I'd love to be educated. I know a Pucara had a good long go in the Falklands unsuccessfully.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Tourist,

Whilst I don't know the answer to your question, surely schwacking someone with a PW while they're in the 5 ft hover is no more difficult than hitting a tank/truck/generic ground vehicle?

Assuming of course your hover is more stable than a stude on hovering 1!

[camacho]

Didn't an F-15E splash an Iraqi heli with an LGB during Desert Storm ? I remember the Hog guys got two gun kills against helis and I think there were a couple more, but I don't know if any of the helis had seen the threat and were manoeuvring against them.

I also seem to recall that a Pucara downed the Scout that was on its way to pick up H Jones at Goose Green; heard about that a very long time ago, though, so happy to stand corrected.

[Tourist]

pba

Yes, obviously a hover would be easy, but lets be honest the helicopter will probably be doing something like 100kts at 5 ft if it is aware. I also wonder how close a bomb would have to be to have a realistic probability of a kill. The bomber also has to find the moving target from above. Not that easy, if the amount of times you have to talk the fast jet onto you in fighter affiliation is anything to go by.

camacho

I thought the scout found an oportunity to land and the crew left it rotors running? Maybe another one.
I can understand an A-10 or Pucara or frogfoot getting a helicopter, they are designed for the slow fight, and LGB hit was a shut down helicopter if it is the one I am thinking of, so hardly fair.

What about Vietnam? Any migs go for Hueys or Cobras?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Even if a DH is not achieved the debris hemisphere from an LGB or the like is going to make it a very nasty place for a rotary aircraft to fly :ok:

[Tourist]

Oh I don't doubt it, but can you put one within 100m of a speeding helicopter?:confused:
Or is the hemisphere bigger than that?

[Tourist]

Incidentally, this isn't banter, I would seriously be intrigued to find out just how easy/tricky it would actually be in a realistic scenario, ie in european terrain, trees and terrain relief, not on a billiard table.

[500N]

US planes shot down 2 US Blackhawks over Northern Iraq.

Not sure what they used.

[Archimedes]

We have a Ppruner who's expert in the art of bringing down helicopters , do we not? (Dave Morgan bagged at least one which was in flight in '82, IIRC)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sat in a hot debrief with a Tornado crew many years ago when I was a Puma Crewman and they said that they would not normally waste munitions on a Rotary target but on an opportunity basis on the way home they would certainly send something down if it was still on a pylon.

Can't remember the specifics from my HTI days but some of those bombs put up a very large amount of crap and corruption which travelling in all directions way way quicker that the heli it was aimed at and is one of the tactics the Tornado guys talked about using :ok:

[Geehovah]

Having done a lot of affil in the Falklands, helos are a difficult target. The slow speed makes it difficult for a PD equipped fighter to lock to the target. A stationary helo is the same as a car so radar designers spend much effort designing that particular problem out of a radar. Slow speed targets are tricky for any weapon which uses speed as a discriminator.

The easiest way to engage may in fact be a strafe pass.

Suffice to sat that helo pilots need to know how to evade a fighter. Fighter pilots need to know how best to engage a helo. With modern ops, that's good training.

[jamesdevice]

to put the boot on the other foot...

from IRIAF kills in the Iran-Iraq War (As of 22 September 1980) - Iran Defense Forum (http://www.irandefence.net/blog.php?b=71)

Iraqi fighters downed by Iranian helicopters (AH-1J)
1 MiG-21
total: 1

Iraqi Helicopters downed by Iranian helicopters (AH-1J)
1 SA.316
9 SA.342
6 Mi-25
total: 16

I've read elsewhere that they were all Sidewinder kills

[camacho]

Tourist, the Americans did lose an H-53 to a Vietnamese MiG during an extraction; a missile shot, if I remember correctly, but I've no idea if the H-53 crew were aware of the threat or at what stage of the operation it caught them. I'd hope that we have a couple of Americans around who might be able to shed light on this one, and any other events like it.

[Tourist]

jd

I'd love to know if those helicopters were unsuspecting or alert, and I guess they had no DAS. Also. what terrain?

SFFP

That's the thing though.

"is one of the tactics the Tornado guys talked about using"

They think it might work, but who has tried it?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Thing is fighter affil is totally canned hence it's not even close to a true representation of what's likely to happen. If I am to believe what was said the FJ guys have no interest on the outbound leg as their payload has a much more important need as part of the overall mission.

On the way home as a target of opportunity then what the heck and there is a better than even chance the poor old rotary asset will have no idea of the trouble that is coming it's way.

Fighter affil always was and no doubt still is nowt but pilots playtime and is about as much use as a chocolate teapot :ok:

[MAINJAFAD]

I do believe Moggie's 2 air to air kills against helicopters was a manoeuvre kill on a Puma, and a guns kill on an A-109 which was just touching down.

A Pucara did down a Scout AH1 during the battle of Goose Green, The pilot of the Scout was killed (I think the crewman was badly injuried). Pucara pilot that got the Scout scored the only Argie air to air kill of the war, though the pilot didn't live paint the kill on the aircraft as he crashed in bad weather on his way back to Stanley.

F-15E did score an LGB kill on a Iraqi Helicopter (Bo-105) in the hover, and a couple of Iraqi Mil-8s met a stream of 30mm from the GAU-8 on a couple of A-10s during the 91 Gulf war.

[Tourist]

Thanks for that MAINJAFAD

SFFD

I have heard this "helicopters not that important" thing before, but it is just silly surely. Rotary assets are one of the most important assets around, and just as expensive as anything else nowadays. The idea that you won't waste time on an Apache or pair of SF chinooks seems ludicrous. First day planned strike maybe, but once the reactive battle starts, I would say rotary is very high value.:confused:

[jamesdevice]

Tourist - sorry, can't answer that
I have read on another forum an Iranian guy claiming that the Iranian Cobras managed to take out five MIG-21, but I've not found any other confirmation so far

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Thanks for that MAINJAFAD

SFFD

I have heard this "helicopters not that important" thing before, but it is just silly surely. Rotary assets are one of the most important assets around, and just as expensive as anything else nowadays. The idea that you won't waste time on an Apache or pair of SF chinooks seems ludicrous. First day planned strike maybe, but once the reactive battle starts, I would say rotary is very high value.:confused:

The guys did qualify this by saying that everything was determined by the Op tasking, if their out load was intended for a specific task then that's what it was saved for.

Other Ops may well say any target gets it but it will always come down to the ROE etc on the day :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

A Bucc crew took out a Cub taxying in GW1. IIRC they slipped the bomb into the crew bunk area behind the cockpit and in front of the freight bay.

As for debris hemisphere: A 1000lb bomb will give a 90% Pk at 700 feet and a 10% PK at about 1400 feet. At 3400 feet the PK drops to 1%. If IIRC these figures are from the NEAF Range Orders circa 1960.

As the target would not know the bomb was on its way it would probably fly into the debris zone if the bomb was aimed correctly.

[MAINJAFAD]

Well this thread expains why I saw a couple of Apaches landing ouside my office on an airfield in the Southern Lincolnshire fens this morning, plus a number of other green Helo movements in and out of said airfield during the month.

[Archimedes]

Also, now I think of it, an F-14 from VF-1 shot down an Mi-8 during Desert Storm (using an AIM-9).

[Tourist]

I would hope in my modern western deployable helicopter that my DAS would sort out the AIM-9 and I would get warning of an approaching radar giving me time to start evading.



I think there needs to be a large scale trial involving all the SK6 sitting at Sultan (they still there?) and a bunch of retired Gazelles

Fit the SK7 DAS and some remote HD camera gubbins, Radio control them around northern scotland and everyone gets to have a go using their best technique,
Invite the yanks to pay for it.
Argue the toss in the bar later.
Who's in?

[bakseetblatherer]

Well whether it is good training or not, it is fun. One of my memorable trips was burning through about three months of fatigue life in a sortie in the FI with our own tanker vs the chinook. A total blast by both crews and much banter in the bar after.

[TheWizard]

"Snapshot!" :ok:

[MAINJAFAD]

Also, now I think of it, an F-14 from VF-1 shot down an Mi-8 during Desert Storm (using an AIM-9).

Tomcat's only kill in that conflict, if memory serves

[SASless]

USAF F-15 shot down a US Army UH-60 in Iraq....should have had the courage to shoot himself in the head afterwards! Trigger happy Fighter Pilot!

[jamesdevice]

going back to the Iraqi aircraft lost to Iranian helicopters, this site lists three
Iraq (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/Iraq.htm)
An SU-20, MIG-23MF and MIG-21. All shot by AH-1J using guns!

[MrBernoulli]

On 10th August 1979 the Rhodesian forces were conducting an operation against insurgent forces in Botswana. During the extraction process for the ground troops a BN Defender of the Botswana Defence Forces showed up. A Rhodesian Air Force Alouette III helicopter forced the Defender down by damaging it with using it's single 20mm cannon. :E

[Pontius Navigator]

I think there needs to be a large scale trial involving all the SK6 sitting at Sultan (they still there?) and a bunch of retired Gazelles

Fit the SK7 DAS and some remote HD camera gubbins, Radio control them around northern scotland and everyone gets to have a go using their best technique,
Invite the yanks to pay for it.
Argue the toss in the bar later.
Who's in?

Radio control them around northern scotland and there's me thinking you were volunteering :p

[Tourist]

I have my doubts that it would be as easy as people think, but doubts only, not certainties!!
Certainly would even it up a little if I had an AH of some sort.

[Dan Gerous]

Many years ago near Kelso, I witnessed an F3 and a Chinook doing their thing. I got the impression it was difficult for the F3 to nail the Chinook, but it was great to see two aircraft being flung about the sky like that.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I have my doubts that it would be as easy as people think, but doubts only, not certainties!!
Certainly would even it up a little if I had an AH of some sort.

You could have Airwolf but two half decent FJ's will still kill you each and every time:ok:

Played with Hawk boys on more than one occasion and it's not the one you are avoiding that gets you, it's his mate who spoils your day :ok:

[Flap62]

As Seldomfit mentions, it's a very different game for a singleton v helo. Almsot impossible to get in unseen unless you use same tactic as against Herc and drop in from way up high but then you're faced with difficult shot solution.

Difficult to get guns shot on ultra low level target when dopping down with nose low attitude and difficult to get winder shot as blades do a very effective job of mixing exhaust with cold ambient air.

[dalek]

There were a few one on one F4 v Hind in the Iran Iraq war. Most resulted in a draw with both aircraft unscathed. The one confirmed kill went to the Hind.
Gun kill I believe.

[Evalu8ter]

Dalek,
Most likely a guns kill, though the Iraqis claim it was shot down by a Sagger ATGM and the Russians supposedly gave an award to the crew for doing so!

Affil has been going on aalmost since RW were invented; the Luftwaffe in WW2 were the first to try it pitting a Flettner 282 against a Me109 and FW190. The results are valid today; if flown well at low level a RW is very difficult to acquire, track and shoot. The very nature of the RW role means that they spend much of the time in ground clutter (both RF and IR) and most western helos are equipped with a comprehensive DAS. I can attest to how difficult a RW is to find by having lost count of the amount of times I've had to guide a FJ onto me for me to get to the merge - radar and non-radar equipped. Modern radars are harder to beat, but not impossible. Re the LGB issue - I spent an excellent afternoon fighting a pair of F15Es once, who finally "splashed" me with a 2000lb PW. The reason? I'd trashed every AMRAAM/9L shot and defeated every attempt at guns....so it was all they notionally had left.

[Tourist]

Certainly it is very very difficult to aquire a helicopter visually. I've momentarily lost sight of the guy I'm notionally in tac form with many times! Trying to find one against the ground at high speed, let alone for a supersonic pass as suggested earlier must be very tricky.

[Greek God]

Guns solution with a typhoon?
I thought our lords & masters decreed guns were not necessary?

[Amateur Aviator]

Rogcal,

Check your PMs.

AA

[engineer(retard)]

I suspect the blades turning will also do horrible things to a PD radar,

[Pontius Navigator]

engineer, you mean like dogs b*ll*cks?

We used to get a good lock on the F4 Speys.

[engineer(retard)]

PN

I would expect it would depend on the size of the blades and the radial velocities. I would not be surprised to see PD birds appear.

regards

retard

[rogcal]

Thanks for all the interesting info posted on here since I started this thread.

Just one question I'd like to ask of those who are in the know on the subject.

My strip is regularly overflown by military helos mainly Chinooks, Merlins and Apaches and I've often wondered what permissions are required for any UK military helo to touch down on my property as part of a training exercise.

It strikes me that with more unusual locations to utilise during an exercise, the better the experience gained.

Just a thought!

[TheWizard]

rogcal,

It really depends on where your 'strip' is. If you are within a Low Flying Area then that's a good start. If you have mil helis overflying at low level then there is a safe bet you are.

It may be a case of finding out which is the nearest helicopter station/base to where you are and giving the Media and Comms Officer(MCO) or Public Relations Officer (PRO) a call to discuss your offer. Most contacts are available on the www.

New locations for training are always good to find (although your neighbours may have something to say about it!) but it will require a proper recce before anything is agreed to. :)

[rogcal]

Thanks Wizard. No bases within the local area but still plenty of helo activity at low level so must assume in transit or temporarily based locally while on exercise.

No problems with neighbours whatsoever and the only livestock (a few cattle and goats) are immune from aircraft noise (Virgin balloons are another thing though) due to the frequent passage of low level traffic.

[TheWizard]

It doesn't necessarily have to be 'local' rather than in the region. Can you say approximately where you are in South Lincs and that might be a starter for ten? :ok:

[Trim Stab]

I've momentarily lost sight of the guy I'm notionally in tac form with many times!


That's because in your jiggly little helicopter your eyeballs are bouncing around like pingpong balls in a coconut. You would be able to see accurately if you flew a proper plane.

[Tourist]

Lynx is jiggly, but Gazelle was smooth as butter.


.....proper aircraft my hoop!

[rogcal]

That's because in your jiggly little helicopter your eyeballs are bouncing around like pingpong balls in a coconut. You would be able to see accurately if you flew a proper plane.

I really must get back to the private flying forum but couldn't let this one pass without comment.

From my experience on two occasions, lose a bit of your prop on a single engine aircraft and everything in and attached to the human body bounces around like a pingpong ball in a coconut!;)

Can't speak of the experience of body bits vibrating when in a helo as I've never been tempted to enter one despite numerous offers over the years.:=

Could be something to do with the fact that I like my wings to be fixed to the fuselage and not whizzing around above my head and plus the fact that rotor blades are a lifed component and most wings aren't!

[MG]

Rogcal, all a military helicopter needs to land at a place is the land owner's permission and to notify the local police. Of course they would need to be authorised at their station but that shouldn't be a problem as long as the authoriser is satisfied that there is training value and that permissions are in place. Both RAF helicopter stations in the south have a list of fields that can be used regularly. Give their station ops officers a bell and offer your field up for use.

[Unchecked]

Another way to go is contact AIDU and have your site offered up to the Minor Aerodromes directory, likewise contact Pooleys and have it in their flight guide. The latter will probably attract all kinds of suitable civilian traffic though.