Trouble in HK atc

[lazygal]

So many colleagues are unhappy about the attitude of our management. More restrictions on swaps, no more leave and more....my friends talked about more sick calls. This is all no good, but can we do something to make it better soon?

[ATC Management]

Trouble? What trouble?

We own your lives. We will roster you how and when we wish, it is as simple as that. Didn't you realize you are at the beck and call of the Department when you signed on the dotted line. Read the small print.

Just because YOU must respect, follow and not engineer your roster for your own selfish personal reasons, so that you have a life outside work, does not mean that WE cannot. In fact we have our dedicated roster lady working every hour of the day to engineer the roster within an inch of its life. She will ensure you do not have a life and if there is any reason to suspect you are, you will be disciplined.

Problems with leave? Again, there's no problem! We will simply force you to sign a leave form then covert it to TOIL and Bob's your uncle- no more problem.

Your Union is toothless. What sort of a Union sends letters to us saying they want to work together with Management?! Unions are supposed to thump the table and make demands and threaten us with action if we don't fix things! Instead you want to help us continue to rule your lives! Fantastic!!!

Of course we know there is talk of sickies. Big deal. We have plenty of junior controllers who will come in on their day off because we will threaten them with their promotion if they do not. I must say, we laugh about how many of you are so stupid as to answer your phones on your days off when the number starts with 2910. Helloooo???

If you thought things were bad now, wait until conversion training for the new atcc starts. You may as well bring your wardrobe to work because you won't be going home very often. Oh, but when you do go home, we will be expecting you to take training material with you and study in your own time- what little of it you have left.

Anyway, all the grumbling will die down again soon with the announcement of the civil service pay rise. Of course most of you will end up with 4.5 of 5/8 of SFA after inflation but thats not our problem.

Have to go now, something about multiple resignations in my inbox. Must put a stop to that.

ATC Management

[hkatc Management]

Recent cases of abuse have highlighted the need for a firmer control of the Hong Kong air traffic controllers. They have no discipline and generally act like irresponsible boarding school students. They refuse to show restraint and continue to abuse the roster by swapping duties with colleagues to attend family gatherings, BBQs, parties and other irrelevant activities. This kind of abusive conduct makes administration very difficult. Additionally, we are once again going to hear the usual complaints about fatigue caused by working the “4 days on – 1 day off, 5 days on – 1 day off pattern” during the Bad Weather Season. In Management we work 5 consecutive days every week - yet nobody ever hears us complain about fatigue! Furthermore, the controllers are complaining they don’t get enough annual leave. It is possible that a very small number of individuals do not quite get their full leave entitlement each year, but Management have kindly arranged for the overflowing leave to be converted to TOIL - as a temporary measure, of course. Thus, extreme measures are taken to help the controllers keep the hours for their future benefit, but nobody values the efforts of Management and childish complaints can be heard every day – pathetic! Shift swaps without valid reason and requests for leave from controllers are never-ending. Staff has frequently been reminded that shift swaps are concessions provided by Management and not a God-given right. However, the controllers simply refuse to accept this and disrespectfully keep swapping. Therefore, Management intends to issue a revised Admin Memo to stop abuse once and for all. In future, shift swaps will only be allowed in the rare case of the documented death of a close family-member.

Due to its professionalism and dedication, hkatc Management is less popular in atcx than Osama bin Laden in Manhattan, but still remains committed to always doing its best to improve the controllers already excellent working conditions. Management is fully aware that there are talks about the number of “sickies” going up in the near future, but let us firmly remind controllers with rebellious thoughts in mind: we have you all well and truly by the testicles and will not hesitate to squash them like grapes if so required. Don’t forget that Management decides who gets leave as well as promotion and has several other clever ways of making “difficult” controllers cooperate.

None of the controllers in Hong Kong appreciate the inhuman pressure Management is under, the difficulties and stress caused by dealing with irresponsible factory workers who constantly complain and think of nothing but partying, shift swaps and leave. Nobody fully appreciates just how demanding it is to be a Manager here and having to remind staff to be more vigilant when things have gone wrong.

Management often gets accused of overdoing it when we congratulate ourselves for a job well done - should something actually go well in hkatcx for a change........! But let us face it: nobody else ever gives us any praise. So we reserve the right to congratulate ourselves every now and then.

Meanwhile, you can all rest assured that Management will remain proactive, vigilant and professional at all times and is committed to remaining white and pure – even in this glass of dirty ink.

[boocs]

Management(s),

We have missed you (both.. or are u 1 in the same?)....

In any case, how's the new ATC Management position going?

b.

[ATC Management]

Not 1 in the same but learnt the tactics of fear and intimidation from "The Management". An excellent tutor. Unfortunately no bonus forthcoming here but we do get issued lovely Blackberrys so that we can incessantly email each other 24 hours of the day telling ourselves what a great team we are.

I see my close Management colleague posting as well.
You can recognise us travelling in the car together at lunch time while the lowly controllers take the bus. Plebs.

We will be scanning the logs tomorrow for any transgressions today during the ever so slightly "challenging" weather. Low movement rates cannot be tolerated.

[heartless]

In the current issue of AA's HKIA News there were rewards for excellent service awarded for everyone from security staff to store managers to check in staff for their contribution to the success of HKIA.
ATC handles 100% increase in traffic in the last few years with nearly no staff growth and 1997 pay level. There was never a nice words of thanks from anyone and are labelled 'factory workers' by the director who hates ATC because he never made the grade. The engineer who was made the ATC boss do not want to know our problems and you pilots who fly in here should understand why we are frustrated.:ugh:

[On the beach]

We the Willing
Led by the Unknowing
Are doing the Impossible
For the Ungrateful.

We have done So Much
With So Little
For So Long
We are now Qualified
To do Anything
With Nothing.


And ever was it such.

[RRSM]

'Due to its professionalism and dedication, hkatc Management is less popular in atcx than Osama bin Laden in Manhattan' and:
'we have you all well and truly by the testicles and will not hesitate to squash them like grapes if so required'

WOAAWWW!!

I am beginning to regret all my harsh words about our management in the past. I will no longer call them number crunchers and bureaucrats. These guys are really tough! Respect! Keep it up boys!

[ATC Management]

We have no need to keep it up.
Our response to this little outburst has been swift and incisive. You should know your President faced the firing squad last week and took a bullet for the rest of you troublemakers. Make that 7 bullets.

You will all now toe the line, face the front and behave, like the petulant children you are. Particularly the post 80's bunch who have grand ideas of having working conditions the same as those they have seen overseas. Don't get any fancy ideas. Paid overtime? Not a snowball's chance in hell. Full accounting of leave entitlements according to the CSRs? Dream on.

Now get back to the production line.

ATC Management

[Dan Winterland]

Content removed - wasn't my post!

[troposcatter]

Yet again we are in this situation of Sledge hammer to the Mouse mentality!
4th Floor take it upon themselves to rule with a big stick to a professional and high functional group of intelligent people demeaning them with pathetic and childish reactions to something as simple as a shift swap 'within' the rules! CAD670.
THE TIME IS COMING WHEREBY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH AND THE ATCO'S WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE! Bigger issues are more worrying!!!
Stress management and traffic management are 'safety management' issues and someone's gonna 'crack' and hopefully NOT on the job!!
Max accumulated leave of 180 days mainly affecting local Chinese ATCO's plus TOIL balance figures in excess of 50 hrs with no prospect of leave or reducing these figures, for years ahead, is on the minds of most ATCO's working very high tfc levels 'every day' and 'night' combined now with weather deviations etc.
The warning bells are ringing and it's not a matter of 'if' but 'when' we see something really serious occur.
4th floor will be running for cover and the 'wing and a prayer' philosophy or the TCAS/RA stats, won't protect them in the court of law. e.g. Swiss ATC!
Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen, ........... HKATCX is next!

[hkatc Management]

Any controller who confronts or criticizes Management will pay the price – it is only a matter of time, really. My close Management friend will confirm this. Adequate measures will be taken whether we are dealing with the President of the Union or just a simple factory worker who is abusing the roster by swapping excessively “to help his colleagues”. Management has the power to seriously hurt controllers who show poor judgment - and we will do so if needed. Controllers are in no position to do anything about it – don’t they realize that? Helpless like worms caught in a hot frying pan!

Controllers, listen up now: this storm in a teacup about lack of annual leave, fatigue, buildup of TOIL, arrogant Management, hollow threats about revolution and more nonsense will blow over very soon. As usual, nothing will happen and don’t talk to us about CAD670! We shall retire in a few years, live a trouble free life and leave you to sink like a rudderless ship - we spit in your general direction!!!

[LapSap]

I think it's just sad to see the way the young ones are being burnt out at such an early age.
Constant manipulation of the roster is creating an extremely unstable working environment for all of us but the young ones seem to be copping it the most.
Seeing eager SATCOs turn into jaded ATCOs in such a short space of time is depressing. We older ones at least have memories of happier times.

Thanks for the vote of support Mr Winterland. We notice a similar degradation in piloting skills lately as well. Maybe it's catching.

[Rule3]

Had a conversation with a Chief Pilot recently. ".....your pilots don't seem to be able to fly the aeroplane anymore. "..... we don't want them to fly the aeroplane, WE WANT THEM TO BE SYSTEMS MANAGERS." How true. :{

[LapSap]

I think most of our approach controllers, including expats, would wet their pants if they saw someone doing 350 to 15 these days.
Couple of rules I was reminded of recently by one of the guys in the procedure unit:
1. They all gotta slow down to land
2. There's only one speed instruction- 210- its just a matter of when you give it.

[Don Quixote]

Sorry Dan but can't see how you, sitting in your jet, can actually tell that there is a degradation in standards at HK ATC. Every day is different, I've been flying here more than 12 years, no issues.

Maybe you are the problem, too inflexible ?

I am a little offended by your statement and I don't even know any controllers.

Care to enlighten us on what services have eroded over he last 18 months ?

What policies are you referring to ?

Of course I have heard around the traps that they are under staffed, difficult to get leave and so forth but those are management issues.

Despite being aware of some of the difficulties they are working under, I believe they are true proffecionals when they are at the coalface and they would leave those issues at the door. :D

[BusyB]

DQ,

I agree with you:ok:

[Rule3]

Sounds like advice my old Mate Y and L gave me many years ago, along with
" A bit of vert never hurt."

[On the beach]

...would wet their pants if they saw someone doing 350 to 15 these days

I think most of the drivers onboard would, as well, specially on 07!!
Mmm, anyone care to try 350 to LIMES? :( How about it, Mr. Winterland?
Thought not. :{ Now, what was that you were saying about degradation etc, etc?

Bring back the Trident and real pilots :E

On the beach (and staying here) :ok:

[LapSap]

19 posts on this topic and not a word from Throw a Dyce!!!
Where are you Mr. Dyce???

[Dan Winterland]

Sorry if the earlier post in my username upset some people - it wasn't me who put it there. I had used a computer at work to while away some dull hours and logged on to PPRuNe. Obviously, I didn't log off properly and later, someone else using PPRuNe on the computer saw someone else logged in and decided to add a few posts using my name!

Top tip - log off PPRuNe properly if using a communal computer!

[Fly747]

I've seen 350 at Limes beach but not for a while, needs to be middle of the night. It were a chief pilot too! I know Dan could do it cos he used to fly the big V! I've only ever managed around 320.
Dan, I hope they didn't knock out a couple of emails on your behalf as well.

[foxtrot zulu]

STOP belittle yourselves in front of Management and play "BIG Brother" in the Union of ONLY 30% of representation (or less :}). Exercise your energy in your small little empire at Kai Tak. Your letter to Management on your new definition of shift duty and roster system under abuse reconfirms my decision of not being a member - CORRECT!

The fatigue you mentioned applies on you exactly when you were in TearU, 408 and/or at the hot seat. SPE might have recorded someone's snoring.

By the way, it seems you spent genuine effort on recruiting SATCO/ATFSO to become your private club member rather than rescuing the dying Union. A piece of suggestion to you: Since you have such a zealousness in managing club matters, why not write another letter to Management requesting to relocate your club at Sung Wong Toi Road to ATCX.

The coming AGM is your exit.

[Dan Winterland]

Fly 747 - I hope not! But I doubt it as I had logged out of the computer, but PPRuNe was still logged in my usename. I've since been back and logged off.

It would have to be 345 at Limes these days. Too close to the ''ding ding ding''.



And to whomever it was who used my log in, It's my fault for not logging off I know - but rather than use someone elses name to send abusive posts, use your own. PPruNe's anonymous anyway!

[LapSap]

So what's your solution foxtrot zulu? Guess you're happy to sit back and put out your hand to receive the benefits that Unions (not just ours) have fought for over the decades. You think your current salary is what it is because the Government was feeling benevolent?? I suspect the only snoring going on is from you.

Or if I read your b/s correctly, you think there is nothing wrong with the way the roster and leave system is being manipulated by Management?
Do you think the numbers they produce bear any relevance to the true problem? Who cares what percentage of leave requests are approved. That means Jack Sh1t.

Now lets not blame CAD exclusively here. Why aren't the THB and CSB brought to account for their decisions not to approve staffing increases over the years while they know damn well that traffic has grown 100% in the last 13 years?

Perhaps someone from the SCMP who reads this could start asking some hard questions at the Bureau level. Don't let them hoodwink you with their recent too-little-too-late approval for Students. With training taking over 5 years and at least 20 controllers due for retirement in the next 2 years, the horse has well and truly bolted.

[yaumokowchor]

Read the China Daily not the SCMP. Another piece of journalistic and sensation-seeking rubbish. Unbalanced and filled with personal negativities.

Put the roster and leave issues to one side.

For those grumpy and frustrated controllers who were interviewed, you should be ashamed of yourselves for suggesting that a rise of incidents has to do with fatigue and causing futher distress to a fellow ATCO involved in the incident highlighted. Where is the blame-free culture that fellow ATCOs are supposed to uphold as well?

Truly unprofessional statements to make and not called for.

[LapSap]

Put the roster and leave issues to one side.

Why, FFS?
Thats the crux of the problem you idiot. Who say's the rise in incidents is not due to fatigue? Have a look into the eyes and faces of the young ones- they're f:mad:d already. Ready for 68 movements an hour boys and girls? Its just around the corner. Or are you going to show some solidarity and put your foot down and say no-we're not doing it. Stuff your target movement numbers. Start shutting down a few sectors- we don;t have the staff to man them.

When is someone going to admit that they stuffed up and didn't recruit enough people 5 years ago?

I see you journos didn't do what was suggested and go to the Bureau level and rattle a few cages. Why wouldn't they approve additional controllers in 2006 when CAD told them there would be a shortage. Even the Dir Gen on day 1 in his job told them they were 50 short! Guess he was shut up quick smart.
So now in 2011, with a high % of Approach controllers over 60 (some 63 can you believe! - nowhere else in the world will you find 63 year old radar controllers still doing Approach at a 1000+ movement a day airport!!) and a heap of the locals due for retirement, the Bureua sh1t themselves and say, ok ok you can take on 30 students
Holy crap, it will be 2016 before these young ones are of any use to the system. Meanwhile at least 30 controllers will retire in the next 3 years and we're back to square one!
If ever there was a reason to tell Airport Authority not to bother with a third runway coz CAD can't even find the controllers to run the show, AND GET LEAVE THEY ARE ENTITLED TO, then this is it.

[RRSM]

Yaumo.

Contradicting years of research on Human Factors, you suggest that roster and leave issues have no bearing on the number of incidents. Interesting reading indeed – can you fill us in a bit on your revolutionary theory please? You don't seem to understand the meaning of 'blame-free culture' either – it refers to ATC management (not) just automatically looking for somebody to blame, but being constructive about it.....see?


Anyway, enjoy your 3 days off!

[EARLY-GO]

Controller in Fragrant Harbour have no fatigue cos they all have early-go almost every shift. It is their wild private life making them fatigue.

[RRSM]

Here we go again.......!

[throw a dyce]

Mr Sap,
Agree with everything you say IMHO.AA could always contract ATC out to a contractor.NATS,SERCO,etc would be grateful for the passing trade.
Beach
I preferred the BAC 1-11 to the Trident(ground gripper).Useless 5 engined pile of Auto land junk.

Dycer:cool:

[Dan Winterland]

Never flown an aircraft which can use reverese in flight (Trident?) but I'm sure it would be useful for the Siera 5A with a shortcut! ;)

[On the beach]

"reverese" ???

I think it's the SIERRA 5C arrival to the CANTO hold for you, my lad, until you can learn to spell. :)

[LapSap]

SIERRA

Oops. :ouch:

[throw a dyce]

Beach,
I think you've picked up the parliamo glasgow.
Sierrrrrrra aye.:ok:

[On the beach]

"SIERRA"

Ouch, hoisted by my own petard, as we say down here, mes amis! :{

Or, Awaanboilyirheid, as they say, up in the other place! :\

On the beach

P.S. I'm beginning to think there may be something in this climate change after all. Four months ago it was very cold and now it's quite warm. :)

[EARLY-GO]

yaumokauchor

you are right, it is their wild life after work cause the majority of fatigue.

[LapSap]

it is their wild life after work

How stupid of us to forget that our whole life is dedicated to keeping that sh1thole running.
Of course we shouldn't be having a good time 'outside working hours'. As far as some are concerned we are ALWAYS available to keep the system going.:yuk:
Now pi$$ off and let me drink my beer in peace.

[RRSM]

EARLY-GO and Yaumo.

OK; you 2 are right and I shall now share my secret with you:

I frequently suffer from fatigue and this has absolutely nothing to do with working 5 on - 1 day off most of the time and not getting my annual leave. It is exclusively due to my wild personal life so full of loose women, endless amounts of beer, whisky & wine as well as smoking joints practically every night. Actually, it is quite normal for me to roll around in my own vomit with the rats in the sewers of Wanchai 2 hours before the beginning of my shift, have a quick shower, throw some after-shave onto my face, and then off to control airplanes without being able to see straight – great fun I can tell you! Then – oh dear, after 2-3 minutes of my shift fatigue usually sets in!

Dammit – you guys are just too smart for me so please keep this secret for yourselves? BIG BIG SECRET!!!!! HUUUUUUUUSSHH!! OK?

[On the beach]

If CAD cut their time off and didn't let them go on leave, then they'd be shifting 120 an hour!

On the beach (Is that a contrail I see? Oh no, it's just another volcanic ash plume!) :E

[EARLY-GO]

taking early-go is illegal, cheating, :yuk:

[EARLY-GO]

Dan takes a lot of earlygo.

[LapSap]

That's really cute on an anonomous forum EG.
Care to tell us your name? If you can spell it.:yuk:

[EARLY-GO]

my name is called LATE-BREAK.

very soon my name will be replaced by "NO MORE EARLY-GO" "NO LATE-BREAK BUT STAY BEHIND".
:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[TOIL]

TOIL should be deducted for those taking early go or late break.

[RRSM]

Disgruntled Hong Kong atcos have been highly critical of their management for years. Management is generally regarded as a bunch of third class politicians although most seem to agree there are 1 or 2 decent blokes on the fourth floor. Now management has invited controllers to an informal tea party for an open discussion about the myriad of problems in ATCX. This invitation has naturally been discussed amongst controllers. The vast majority see it as just another trap - the usual: “we have to be seen to be doing something” after the recent angry exchanges of opinions between management and our dying union – soon without a president. A decade of distrust cannot be changed the way overflowing annual leave became TOIL in the blink of an eye thanks to some very creative administration.

Most controllers are still of the opinion that no matter what they say it will not make any difference whatsoever and woe betide anybody who stands up to management – just ask the ex-president of the union or the controller who recently swapped within the rules! They are both tattooed for life. The “open door policy” management claims to promulgate simply means the door is open for you to leave, but fresh ideas cannot enter! It is all a pantomime and nothing of any significance will ever happen. However, a few others are slightly hopeful claiming that Good and Evil are at war on the fourth floor and that better times may be ahead if the outcome of the situation is ideal.

Controllers and probably the press too would like to know just how it is possible that so many controllers annual leave balance exceeds 180 days if there indeed is no controller shortage?

How come a person named “N/A” still gets rostered so often?

Why are office staff and trainees called upon to work operationally so frequently if there is no manning problem?

Did anybody consider the long-term consequences now the annual leave can no longer be converted to TOIL??

What happens when even more controllers’ leave exceeds maximum? Will they simply see leave disappear into thin air or will management invent a new way of manipulating annual leave which cannot be granted?

How long can this continue before it all blows up completely?


EARLY-GO/TOIL: Why don’t you post a new thread with your drivel about late breaks? If you want to involve management remember that only anonymous complaints will be taken seriously!!!

[EARLY-GO]

it is very insulting saying TOIL is posting silly stuff on this forum. there is nothing wrong to voice my view under this thread namely "trouble in hk atc". rrsuckm :yuk: don't play webmaster. TOIL and EARLY-GO are big big big troubles in here. TOIL and EARLY-GO matters corrupt atco atfso behaviour at work. it is shameful you guys leave at 2pm while the roster saying you should leave at 3pm/4pm! why n/a on the roster, simply because we do not need that person for releasing people for early-go!! that answer your silly question.

[Steve the Pirate]

So the acronym for working when you should be able to take leave but you can't due to manning issues is "TOIL" - somebody had to be joking right?

STP

[LapSap]

Steve. This is the Hong Kong Civil Service we're talking about.
You know, brown envelopes left over from the second World War, everything in triplicate - I bet we still have carbon paper somewhere, letters that address you as "yourgoodself", office staff chastised for catching the 17:20 bus because they are paid til 17:23, a class structure that Victorian England would have been proud of, wetting of pants by the 4th floor whenever the word "Bureau" is mentioned, penny pinching in the extreme but pound foolish when it comes to most things.

What is laughable is to see their attempt to relate shift-working controllers' rosters and entitlements to the 150 year old Civil Service Regulations. Written clearly for the job of a pen pusher in the British Army in the 1800's, these archaic tomes never envisaged civil servants not working 9 to 5, 5.5 days a week, without anyone needing to cover your postion if you were sick or on leave. (sickness is probably forbidden in there somewhere!)
So we have this ridiculous system of relationship to office workers in Admiralty, who gleefully have their weekends and public holidays off, while frontline supervisors struggle with rosters full of holes. Daily manning sheets littered with "Not manned" in critical poisitions make a mockery of the roster.

There is no such thing as callout or reserve to cover sickness or leave- well there is, but they have no mechanism to pay you for it.
So, as you say, they conveniently have the ironically named TOIL as their secret weapon.
TOIL is like their version of Monopoly money - they can throw it around at a whim without upsetting the taxpayer. Any time they need you to work overtime, or come in on days off for training etc, they say "oh, but we'll give you TOIL". It's their great piggy bank of IOUs that never get paid back because the don't have the staff . And the reason they don't have the staff is they just do not understand why anyone would want to have their leave - don't you want to save it up for the next 30 years and retire early??? Great!!

Disjointed rant over. Can't be bothered any more.

[The White Rabbit]

I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date!


Controllers: It would be so nice if something would make sense for a change.

Management: There's only one way to stop a MAD WATCH. I have an excellent idea, LETS CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

Here comes the Union Rep:

Off with his head!!

Would you like a little more tea?
Well, I haven't had any yet, so I can't very well take more.
Ah, you mean you can't very well take less.
Yes. You can always take more than nothing. Its a bit like TOIL.

Now then, are you ready for your sentence?
But there has to be a verdict first.
Sentence first! Verdict afterwards! Off with his head!!

What do you know about this unfortunate affair?
Nothing.
Nothing whatever?
Nothing whatever!
That's very important! Jury, write that down!

Of all the silly nonsense, this is the stupidest tea party I've ever been to in all my life.

Your Majesty, members of the jury, loyal subjects... and the King... the prisoner at the bar stands accused of enticing ADG, into a game of TOIL, thereby and with malice of forethought, molesting, tormenting, and otherwise annoying our beloved...

Never mind all that! Get to the part where ADG loses his temper.
...thereby causing ADG to lose his temper.

Someone's head IS GOING TO ROLL FOR THIS!

Rule 42: All persons higher than the 4th floor must leave the court immediately.
I am not in the Tower, and I'm not leaving.
Sorry. Rule 42, you know.
Now back to work.

This place really is quite mad.


Apologies to Charles Lutwidge Dodgson

[Rule3]

Ask Throw a Dyce and ex Gweillo Airlines "Pilots" about :mad: TOIL.

[On the beach]

Ask Throw a Dyce and ex Gweillo Airlines "Pilots" about TOIL.

Oh no, please don't!! :E

On the beach (TOIL-free and staying here)

[The White Rabbit]

The time has come, my little friends, to talk of other things / Of TOIL and rosters and vacation leave, of pak choy and DGs / And why the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wigs / Calloo, Callay, come run away / With the pak choy and DGs.

But I don't want to go among mad people.
Oh, you can't help that. Most everyone's mad here.
You may have noticed that I'm not all there myself.

Time for the expats to go! Off with their heads!! 2013 all will be normal again.

[Argus Tuffit]

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!" :hmm:

[LapSap]

It's confirmed. The place has gone completely mad.

[throw a dyce]

Two mentions in dispatches..woohoo.:)
It's interesting to read about EGs of minutes being regarded as theft from the CAD,yet the TOIL police managed to lose 13 DAYS from my balance:D.Then you are put on a punishment roster as punishment for their incompetence on their own stupid system:bored:.
So in practice when you leave they can't be bothered unless you are hundreds in positive.
Atom bomb in the whole TOIL/Leave/Roster system.Are they still publishing 11 page rosters.:confused:

[SuzieWong]

The bad weather this week tests the system :*

So many flights every days now mean the normal roster cant cover the traffic if any delays into the night :\

Will we be asked to work more day 9 and 10? Just when the management tell us they have plenty of staffs and have the leave situation solved. Will all the 1 days of leave off suddenly disappear? People from the office called up to help is no use when the weather is bad. They are not current. :ooh:

What plan next bosses?:confused::confused::confused:

Yes mr dyce, still the big rosters and continuos roster change. I think it will get worse. It seems they expect to callout at short notice. Everyone turn off your phone. :mad:

[watsup]

suzie,
no need for extra colleagues.Staffing is good if no-one take early go.Tower colleagues always take early go ,particular the expat.We hearing two expat resigning and leaving soon.That is good.

[Steve the Pirate]

We hearing two expat resigning and leaving soon.That is good.

But surely that can only be "good" if there are an equal number of fully qualified replacements, otherwise your rosters are going to get even tighter - or am I missing something?

STP

[throw a dyce]

I would also replace resigning with retiring.I can't think of many expats younger than 50 and most are closer to 60,or even beyond.Hey welcome back to the real world.:D
Also probably replacing people with all the ratings,OJTI,100's of years of experience,with a Tower only who controls by numbers.
This is good? :uhoh::hmm:

[RRSM]

Seems we have some xenophobic tendencies creeping in here…..WATSUP, are you a member of the Chinese National Front?

[The White Rabbit]

:mad: off!. Splitters!

We're the National Front of China!
Not to be confused with the Popular Peoples Front of China.
Or the People's Popular Front of....

Oh, forget it.

Last one out, turn the lights off.

[Argus Tuffit]

Not to be confused with the Popular Front for the Liberation of...

bloody old, over 60's expat controllers. :E

In summer, when the days are long,
CAD, perhaps you'll understand the song:

P.S. Strewth, there's no truth either in the rumour that Hong Kong Airlines is the secret buyer of A380's, it's Gweilo Airlines, of course, that's the true buyer. But keep it under your hat mate or that other HK Airline (the one with the thing that looks like a Gweilo on the tail) will get jealous. :{

[hkatc Management]

People keep saying that 7 against 1 is an act of cowardice – so what? Getting the President of the Association to squeal like a mouse in front of 7 Managers followed by making him put in writing there are no staffing issues at all - actually there is a surplus of controllers in HK……………............and finally seeing him resign as President of the Association for ‘family reasons’ made it all worthwhile. This clearly illustrates how Management intends to deal with anybody who tries to be too clever. Management realizes he received plenty of help from so-called ‘experts’ of the Association who helped him write to Management and these persons will feel the full force of our sledgehammer soon. Thanks to our cronies we are in the process of identifying them. Once identified they too will be dealt with. We wish to ‘educate’ these sorry individuals.


Most controllers still remember that HKATCA had an expat as President in the not too distant past. He had many clever ideas about TOIL, leave and staffing. He also told Management how to do its job. For this he paid the ultimate price: no new contract! He was begging for a new contract and of course he was continuously given hope that he would get an extension – only to be disappointed on the very last day – such a shame! Seeing his hope turn to despair – ah, sweet memories. He simply broke down in tears and could not handle it - f@ggot!

Now the Association has no President at all and Management warns anybody wanting this job to think very carefully. Of course, Management will still allow the Association to exist in order to show the world what an excellent place our atc is, but we must make sure the new President has the correct attitude and works in the spirit of Management.


To further demonstrate the Management’s Open Culture Policy colleagues can rest assured that we are always interested in free exchange of views between controllers and Management. Our door is always open. Please come in!

[EARLY-GO]

there are very few unhappy controllers here, the very few are just those in this forum. most of the controllers are in general happy to the management. they know the management has been trying hard to improve the working environment. thanks to everyone, if not all, at 3/4 floors of their hard work.
:ok:

Last but not least, no more early-go please, late break corrupts controllers' mindset. it is a corruption. it is an offense to csr. be a good civil servant!

[EARLY-GO]

dying union?! died long time ago.
the last few presidents suck.
no one pay membership fee nowadays.
they still call themselves union. they were called "social club" years ago. it is now worse than that. no surprise, the whole cra:mad:p is run by a bunch of brush shoe boys and girls.
the last president is hiding himself as an X-cun, useless small bast:mad:ard as president. carry a title as president trying to shine himself in front of satco (the club should be renamed as hk.student.atca) and all his peers in his little kingdom in fragrant harbour air catdead. eat banana! :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

no hope.

[LapSap]

Seriously, do you think we should have an effective Union or not?
I guess if you are happy to be treated the way we have been lately then there's no point reading further.

If, on the other hand, you consider having a say in your future is worthwhile, what have you done to improve it, given that you don't hold the previous Executive in high regard?
Why not pay your fees and have a say in the way things are run. Perhaps even run for Office?

Or are you one of these people who like to bring up lots of problems but has no solutions?

[Maid Day]

Vectored today into 25R with 20' offset that would SIMPLY NOT (4500') provide a real intercept by River. Local accent. Extreme VFR.... 250kts from 200+ miles away. Good luck.

[EARLY-GO]

why should i pay to make such meaningful protest? i never pay money to this club. they are even worser than a club. seeing how these boys/girls polish the senior officers' shoes are quite entertaining.

i might join the union if they dare to present a paper to management on BAN THE EARLY GO aka LATE BREAK. i pay my last decades membership fees!! :*

[throw a dyce]

EG,
Your posts are getting funnier by the day.
HKATCA isn't a union,it's an association that is part of IFATCA.I never could see how they had any bargaining powers the way for example Prospect has with Nats.
Prospect is about 1000 times more powerful than HKATCA,and is now regarded in Nats as a lame duck.
So you are free to do as your told by management under the CSRs,and that your lot.The only time HKATCA could be useful,is that if you manage to weld some planes together,and judging by your posts I really hope you are not operational,then they might get a better legal team than legal aid would allow.Think about it,we all make c:mad:kups now and again.:hmm:

[KABOY]

Can someone explain to me why we are now receiving regular delays into HKG and not one single notam has been generated to plan for ATC holding.

I spend most of the journey travelling through china at altitudes 15000' below optimum, to then receive an instruction to reduce speed and hold. All my contingency fuel has evaporated, there is no weather within 50nm of the airport!

They want to build a third runway in this place and they cant even deal with two at the moment and it still hasn't reached it's capacity!

Something has gotta give and its not the bull@#$t politics within the nursery!

[boocs]

So I guess u missed the article in the SCMP KABOY saying that they are already looking into a 4th runway.....

Yep, also had holding as well recently, as well as speed reductions as well as the "left 180, then turn right 360". So it looks like more extra fuel on top of the extra recommended (plus a little bit extra of course.. ;) )

b.

[Iron Skillet]

First time in a big plane?

So what, it's not like you're going to run out of gas. Very simple: Go with the flow and either divert or declare an emergency, either way you land. Notice how neither of those things happens very often?

Save your energy for the real problems and emergencies.

Also, have you figured out yet that you usually get paid more if you fly more? Once that starts bothering your company, then they will deal with the causes. You're just the driver, just another little employee.

[marcopolosnr]

Third runway at Hong Kong International Airport ‘going to be needed’ - Cathay Pacific - FlyerTalk Forums (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cathay-pacific-asia-miles/1221482-third-runway-hong-kong-international-airport-going-needed-cathay-pacific.html)

happy reading
it's all there
13 pages so far

[By-stander]

"Dan takes a lot of earlygo."

For the safety of the flying public, let him go early as often as he likes.

[TOIL]

In that case, the tower will become unmanned between 1:30pm and 3pm.

[RRSM]

watsup/TOIL/EARLY-GO (one single person logging on with 3 different user names), are you for real? Declaring holy war against Tower controllers who “always take EGs” - mainly gweilos according to your manifesto. In fact, they are the real cause of all problems in HK atc – a place where almost everybody is happy all the time, if you are to be believed!

Did your sweetheart run off with some gweilo in the past and left you feeling angry, hurt & vindictive?

[watsup]

Xeno..
How cum you so smart?
You smart enough to work on 4 th. floor, or maybe already there???
How cum you know about my girlfriend who run away with gweilo and very happy-la living overseas. Why she do this to me ??? wHY NOT SHE LIKE LIVING IN 440 SQ. APARTMENT,EAT rice everyday,do the kary-o.k.,breathe lovely air,have 4 mobile phones.
I thought she velly happy.Me now loser, like most of my colleagues.

[perfectenergy]

Who is the them president of hkatca :confused:
I want a refund on my last 15 years of membership fees, I need that money for a more meaningful thing.

[LapSap]

The Association is not about one person doing your dirty work for you.
Get off your ass and have some input if you want things to happen.

[yat.kin.fat.choy]

Perfect! That lapsap president was still at garbage room sweeping lapsap.
Basically, the union has COB, it is time to queue up for refund before being liquidated.

[TOIL]

There is no more president in the union since the last apple polisher's resignation, its status is like a night club without pander. Thanks for ruining the hketce business.

[gweiloairline]

what has happened to this thread

No more early goes?

No more TOIL?

all die a natural death?

[gweiloairline]

my GF suzziewong tells me that DD
is still getting all the EGs without TOIL
but car motor is turning a blind eye?

and CSB wont care:confused::confused:

[watsup]

Agree with you gweiloairline. D.D. never take toil, just like all gweilo.And yes, KING KARL TURN BLIND EYES. He is only puppet of MANWELL.
Good news-old American leave next week and angry Englishman also go soon. No loss. Two Danish go soon.:D:ok:

[AAIGUY]

Then we're just left with you local f*ck wits that
have us holding @ Abbey in VFR weather

Within months of the last expats leaving, local female contollers
Will put two of us together. Thank god for TCAS

New local controllers could hardly be any more useless.

[snoop doggy dog]

:ok: TCAS has saved the day a number of occassions :ok:

and your right, they're as useful as t!ts on a bull :{

[Sqwak7700]

The VFR holding is probably a result of getting exact vectors from TD that mirror the published procedure withing RNP tolerances, followed by speed restrictions in 10 kt intervals every 30 seconds.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; A good controller is the one which intervenes ONLY when required, issuing instructions when needed and making sure they are top quality. We have a few here in HKG, but sad to say, they are of the gweilo type - or at least they sound that way.

The local controllers do an incredible job maintaining the train on the tracks with all the effort they put into making life hard for themselves at the same time - the frequency sometimes sounds busier than O'Hare during rush hour. It is amazing how much ATC tries to micromanage the aircraft here.

You guys know that we can get ourselves to the runway, right? You really should travel more in our cockpits, you really need to hear how much harder you are making it on yourselves. Keep in mind, we are not sitting there waiting for your instructions. We are juggling our duties while at the same time talking to you.

[AGNES]

AAIGUY and snoop,

It was a strong accusation against us. Please give me the facts. If there was any lost of separation or RA, why didn't you file an ASR?

Why there shouldn't be any holding in VMC? What kind of logic was that? Can you give me a place that ATC will not vector or hold you? EGLL, KLAX or RJAA?

Some gweilos are leaving, so what! They are no better than anyone, maybe you are trying to say the gweilos are incident free.

Keep in mind, we don't want to give any instructions to you, but we are juggling our duties while at the same time talking to you.

Don't just ask us to come to your cockpit, do come to our place to get rid of your tunnel vision.

Here was a comment made by a gweilo - your race.

" I really don't know where they get these pilots from! "

LOL

[watsup]

agnes,
me no like expat controller, much problem, but must admit that they much better than local controller. So, Agnes, you have head up your a#se.Management to blame for recruiting and training local monkeys,most should be working in Watsons,on the perfume counter.:ugh:

[mrfox]

You white expats have a seriously over inflated sense of self-importance.

Years of foreign imperialistic influence has created a sense of inferiority that puts up with, and even believe some of this racist bull****. The new nationalistic education curriculum will fix this for future generations.

You white expats should go home and try your racist attitudes there, and see how well your bigotry is received by your fellow countrymen.

[AAIGUY]

It's not bigotry or racism when it's based on fact.

Expat controllers move more plans efficiently.
Local female controllers do not.

Flying with a local pilot the other day he
mentioned it too.

It's a question of them sucking not race.

Dont even try to compare yourself to real controller's
in Chicago or where ever.. They can can have
2-3 times to movements HK manages..

( except of course when CX blocked a runway with
A A330 last year.. Then 2 western guys doubled the
movements on one runway)


Again.. It's not racism. It's experience.
New controllers in the western works work their way
up to a airport like LA or London. They don't start there.

[AAIGUY]

Here are some more facts..

World's busiest airports by traffic movements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_airports_by_traffic_movements)


Hong Kong isn't even in the top 30.

No third runway needed. Lots of those places
Only have 2.

New Western managers and Controllers required.

[AGNES]

I didn't want to mention it but you insisted.

Did you know that one of the "western controllers" had two serious incidents thereafter?

Arrogance and ignorance were the causes.

This was your beloved western controller.

[babotika]

Not wishing to take sides, but I flew to HK quite regularly in the past and received most excellent service from all controllers when things were going well. It was a welcome change to the rather more chaotic ATC experienced on the flight over.

Maybe it was pure coincidence but as soon as a typhoon or large family of thunderstorms visited the FIR all the accents on the R/T became brit/aussie/canadian...

S.

[SMOC]

Why can't tower handle runway changes? The approach controllers tell us that they aren't allowed to request RWY changes to tower??? the amount of times we're on final for 07L or 25R and can clearly see no one is near lining up when we would have landed on the other runway is a joke, it obviously benefits the freighters but also pax A/C parking on the south side. Is this a "cannot" outside the box scenario?

Can we request a sidestep on twr if you won't let approach do it for us? :ugh:

[yokebearer]

SMOC - please don't get us sidesteps. Us here boys who invented flying at Cx could never handle that kind of workload. We are too busy trying to remember all our mouth music to do sidesteps. :}

[Sqwak7700]

Don't just ask us to come to your cockpit, do come to our place to get rid of your tunnel vision.


Been many times. I've even visited some of the world's busiest, like O'Hare and Logan. Not as easy in a post 911 world, but was a great learning experience for me. Even the smaller airports I've visited were great for seeing the ATC world and what goes on behind the scenes.

Keep in mind, we don't want to give any instructions to you, but we are juggling our duties while at the same time talking to you.


I highly doubt that, as previously stated, some of you micromanage our arrival. And don't know what your other duties are, I thought traffic management was your duty. :confused:

[gweiloairline]

GUY & HIS DOG

You are not only big bigots but also racists and chauvinists!

My GF in HK ATC tells me that Squawk 7700 are told to hold VMC Abbey
because the APP expats (drunken Aussies, sloppy Englishmen, arrogant
yankees, etc etc) just couldnt handle more than 3 on vectors and had to
ask their Western Managers to tell Area Control to hold them outside!
The Area Control local managers complain to their local chiefs
but get no result.

So believe Agnes, it will only get worse if ALL managers are turned Western!:D:D:D

[Sqwak7700]

Gweilo you sound like a disgruntled wanna-be ATCO whose English skills prevent him/her from getting the job. Maybe you should stick with your current profession; ATC controller is not for everyone.

Sorry to be the bearer of some sobering truths, it is for your own benefit. :D

[Gnadenburg]

SMOC - please don't get us sidesteps. Us here boys who invented flying at Cx could never handle that kind of workload. We are too busy trying to remember all our mouth music to do sidesteps.

Ha Ha Ha.

Must you really re-do the descent checklist?

[By-stander]

"Within months of the last expats leaving, local female contollers
Will put two of us together. Thank god for TCAS"

Are you a part time fortune teller or what.

[gweiloairline]

Squawk 7700

only cowards would sidetrack and attack other's use of the easiest language in the world when they cannot follow arguments. For your info I work everywhere as
ATC experts and am now Serco rater of ICAO English Test for middle east controllers. I find ATC guys generally possess better language proficiecy than pilots, who only know swear word when they lose an argument:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Coastrider26]

Coming into HKG last couple of times from SIKOU ATC kept me high&fast for both runways it just doesn't seem to be getting through A330 aircraft don't really like reducing and descending at normal rate at the same time..

It's almost like flying into PVG nowadays or any other PRC airport :ugh::ugh:

[AAIGUY]

one need not be psychic to understand 'cause and effect'

If I hand my 14 month old a glass of water he will spill it.

If you hand over ATC to these useless HK twats, a incident will occur.

My favourite on air quote from last week when we were all holding in VFR WX @ abbey.. (and the second runway was empty on app at least) was ANA asking to slow to min clean speed in the hold, and the tw*t or should I say Chwat... says "no.. maintain 250 knots." I actually burst out laughing..

They simply have no concept.

But neither does my 14 month old.. thus I don't give him open cups of liquid.

PS.. I can give time and date of transmission if any ATC want to look up the tape.. it was hilarious.

[gweiloairline]

AAIGUY

You are absolutley pathetic:\:\:\:\

If you really want to improve any ATC service, you should report
and comment to the CAA.

Calling her **** proves you are a die-hard chauvalist;
Calling her Chtwat proves all the more that you are a bigoted racist;

Perhaps you hate your mother too:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Night Watch]

The fact of the matter is HK ATC have lost the plot in the last 12 months. Last Sunday was a prime example. Aircraft holding for 45 min and then having to divert due to HK ATC freaking out. Their excuse.... weather. What a crock of Sh!t. First of all.... the weather was not that bad and second, the unprofessional manner in which they refused to accept aircraft into HK airspace would NEVER have happened before all the good controllers left.

[AAIGUY]

Oh Gwelioairline.. my poor little friend.

I am neither a bigot or a chauvinist.
All my comments are based on fact.

Its not only me as well I'm afraid.. whether I'm in the cockpit with a Local
pilot or a female pilot, all of us are underwhelmed at the useless of the
new female controllers..

Last Saturday was a goatfest. The holding @ Abbey now ALL the time.. strange vectors.. maintain high speed from first girl, next girl please slow 220, next sector 250 knots please..

It shows no planning or co-ordination or fore thought.

and its scary.

[Coastrider26]

The last months ATC standard just kept falling and I am not sure but some of it seems to be started to happen with this new procedures coming in from Sierra

It is actually an item during my briefing as well of many others. Threat: expect to be kept high and fast in the descend. If you expect us to be kept high just let us reduce speed and we can increase speed on descend..

Regardless of race of gender current Air Traffic Control is just not what it used to be HKG

[flatfilea4]

Night Watch: The reason a/c were holding was because crews did not want to fly through weather to get to the airfield where the weather was for most (but not all) of the the morning quite good. Any aircraft that got close to the airfield got approaches asap. Most sectors ended up overloaded most of the morning with all aircraft deviating and asking for new headings. The early part of the morning also affected by a mainland active danger area near Macau.

VHHH did not have approaches for a short while only due to CB across base leg and the need to route through ZGSZ and VMMC arrival and departure routes to get to our approach - VHHH cannot provide terrain separation assurance outside of our own FIR - co-ordination load and knock effect for VMMC and ZGSZ. Again - if the crews do not want or to fly through the weather how can ATC keep the place running efficiently?

gweilo airlines YAAFM and as you seem to get your info from GF - so is he or she.

BTW IMHO - HK has some excellent locally trained controllers of both sexes.

flatfilea4

[brother4]

flatfilea4

you are right :ok:

i am the one you just touched on :O

[LapSap]

Last Sunday was a prime example. Aircraft holding for 45 min and then having to divert due to HK ATC freaking out. Their excuse.... weather. What a crock of Sh!t.

Well we didn't dream up the weather. It was you sooks who wouldn't go near base leg for almost an hour! I don't know why half of you bother having IFR ratings the way you all dodge around the pi$$iest bit of cumulus these days.

As for the steep descents, it is ICAO, IATA and the companies that are screaming at our procedure guys to design these "optimum" descent profiles- 5% they tell us- no problem- we can do it. Sure- it seems you can if you're the only one in the sky. But when you're number 34 in the arrival sequence and asked to slow to 230, the whole thing goes for a ball of chalk.

[lazygal]

"WTF happened at BORDA this past Sunday? No public statement from CAD but it appears that two widebodied airframes almost lost."

Not just 2 but 3.. or more! The problem was too few controllers to work too many busy positions too long and getting fatigue and unable to handle traffic. Not enough days off and few annual leave given to controllers. But the lovely management still say theres enough controllers. Too bad! So sorry for the poor controllers working on sunday. Not there fault

[fire wall]

Perhaps it is time for a voice of reason.
We, pilots and controllers, are both stake holders with a view to getting the job done as efficiently as possible.
Understanding this basic tenet it a good foundation for moving forward yet understanding the other parties perspective seems to be what is missing.
As a pilot it seems illogical for me to be tasked with 250 kts in the hold yet 200 on final descent however, deciphering my TCAS display, I can often explain the reasoning when preceding aircraft are flying speeds at whim regardless of ATC instruction. Take a look next time at the increasingly reduce spacing when you are on approach behind an airline with "reduced RT skills" and try and imagine the knock on effect to the controllers when there are 10 of "them" on frequency. The number of crew that I fly with who pay scant regard to increasingly reducing spacing is alarming. Whilst our primary concern remains the safety of our aircraft, it pays to consider we are not the only aircraft in the sky.
As for controllers comments ref wx avoidance, we have on average a couple of hundred people down the back of which on average half of them are scared sh1tless of flying. It is in our best interests (and yours) that they become a return customer. Whilst the "whale" rides the bumps well, it is patently obvious that the person making the "sook" comment has yet to experience a towering Cu penetration in a lightly loaded A330.
Further, we are not all 737's. I struggle doing a dirty dive onto 07R when landing at 280 T after a 12+ hour duty..... really struggle.
In addition, on said flight it is not possible to reduce to 250 kts at FL 370 when entering the FIR at ENVAR (and definitely not 220 kts). My comment "too heavy" should be the end of it. If you need to enroute hold the aircraft then so be it but continual requests to reduce speed from the next controller does beg whether the message is getting thru. You do talk to each other on handover .... right? As a hint, any flight number prefixed with a "0" from North American is a dead given that we are entering the FIR tired, jetlagged and more often than not close to max weight. If I am inbound from AMS via SIKOU then different story.
If this has come across as a rant then tough luck.
But both sides in this debate need some perspective, and maturity !

[LapSap]

I apologise for my "sooks" reference but Night Watch implied that ATC was using the weather as an excuse. It was the crews ahead of you that were saying they couldn't negotiate the weather, not us! What would you like to do with those who wouldn't "have a go"? Say "get out of the way" and let someone with a green tail have a go?? Once aircraft start orbiting/holding/ wandering all over the sky of their own volition within 25 miles of the field theres no option but to hold everyone else out.

As an aside, when your company plans an alternate in inclement weather, do they consider 80 or 90 other airlines at HK (yes there are more than 100 regular carriers now) are carrying the same alternate, and that if you are tail-end Charlie, there may not be room for you? Even on the taxiways? I'm surprised how often crews are presumpuous that they will just go to Macau or Shenzhen when they get down to minimums. Of course the information should be made more readily available but often the situation is so dynamic that noone can keep up with the acceptance rate at other airports.

Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, the situation on Sunday was largely exacerbated by extremely poor supervision on that watch and very junior staff in the approach area (Management keeps arguing they have the numbers- its a numbers game you know - this is the Civil Service-very low experience levels though - not dissimilar to your iCadets).

Expect things to get worse. CAD is focused so heavily on going to their new Centre in a couple of years that operational staff numbers have been decimated. They are hellbent on the fact that the new radar system is the solution to all their problems when its actually all about the people.

All I can say is keep one eye on the TCAS.:(

[harryramsdens]

If anything Lap Sap and Lazy Gal have understated the situation - we all (crews and pax most of all) got lucky even with the incidents, maydays, and multiple diversions.

On Sunday AM the Supervisors and Watch Manager worked rather than supervised out of necessity - so at least 2 bums short for normal ops on AM shifts (APP/TMS/TMW/MCL) (one trooper off sick) - the unit is arguably not adequately staffed for normal ops - cannot open all our available and advertised positions except at expected peak periods and with Sups working and provided all turn up - anyone guess as to how the staff can ramp up in time for the new centre? It was a Sunday AM, so no office staff with ratings to call upstairs. I await some prat from the 4th floor to arrive with a new daily plan with shorter breaks to further erode morale and build fatigue.

It is very difficult to split a sector to add another sector once the workload nears or exceeds overload - all time spent on separation and talking on radio so no time to tell someone else WTF is going on - if the ATC knows what is going on by that stage - and HK does have sectors that can overload very quickly even on the best of days.

Re some comments from crews earlier about VMC holding days: just what about 40+ aircraft an hour arriving to land in Hong Kong when we have an arrival capacity of less than that do you not understand. Quart into pint pot? Unless the VHHH is forced into alternate operating procedures due to visibility well below VMC our landing rate is independent of visibility but is always dependent on wind speeds. Sorry to be harsh but this is simple apples and barrels arithmetic.

Now for our 4th floor who don’t understand: The landing rate will always be affected by the wind components on the approach opposite to the direction of landing - because landing rate is to do with time **not** distance - it takes a finite time for aircraft to vacate a runway - it takes a finite time for an aircraft to travel the distance from the point with the minimum separation from the landing aircraft ahead to the touchdown point - this depends on the ground speed from that point to touchdown - landing rate factors: distance to travel, starting ground speed, deceleration rate (option for some calculus for those who understand it), ground speed at touchdown, time to vacate. So before each day we might expect Supervisors and Flow Controllers to strategically calculate the expected possible landing rate for the expected wind and weather conditions - and then apply appropriate flow measures where possible (tricky with so many long hauls) - for those hard of thinking: the greater the wind speed on the approach the lower our landing rate. I have excluded Vref effects as this is outside of ATC control but also a factor tactically - crews, if light please warn us well before (outside 30 NM from touchdown would be good - not at 8 miles) if you get or expect a speed your aircraft cannot fly - presuming a generally “normal” or published speed of 150 to 160 KIAS at 4 NM from touchdown.

Re busy periods: if we had the staff we would open the positions late night and early morning - no staff, no open. Sector overloads are just about a **daily** occurrence and not written up as the serious incident that these are - normalization of deviance? Some periods at night still single staffing partly because of culture and partly due to not enough staff. So nothing learned from Uberlingen. New shifts are being introduced but some years late and without enough extra staff in the system. Regarding the actual shift progression shift to shift - fatigue promoting - the opposite of the recommended way to mitigate against fatigue (for those hard of thinking - shift should progress towards night shifts with progressively later starts each day and then provide adequate rest before the next cycle) - unlike things that actually are ‘rocket science’ this is not ‘rocket science’. HK ATC working hours are similar to HK Civil Service hours - too many for the job at hand in HK now - just too intense for too long.

Re holding speeds: A/C should reduce to any holding speed that suits below published max holding and if necessary increase again when leaving the hold to fit in with the traffic pattern - many HK ATC will not recognize the reasons for that because it has not been part of the culture - vectors common.

Lower speeds will save fuel (good during a delay), reduce turn radius (NM) -> reduce the actual on the day holding area (good for changing levels with other a/c near a hold) - allow greater rates of turn (deg/sec).

Contrary to an unfortunate HK ATC culture IMO - holding always better than vectors for ATC workload when appropriate (4 minutes delay or more) - although the position of a/c needs monitoring relative to the hold leaving time. Present company excepted, my experience is that crews are generally poor at hitting the hold fix at the right time when leaving the hold without help. I don't think that an FMS gets fuddled about wind direction and inbound and outbound headings so is easy for crews as well? Not sure how hard to program the FMS to hold? Most HK ATC will not fully understand rate of turn, the relationship to radius of turn, and why 25 deg bank (or less deg bank if the crew brains are offline) at 220 KIAS is not a rate one turn (if they know what that is anymore) and how long the turn will take - we should measure turns in time not miles.

Of course all that said - all main holds embedded in weather on Sunday so ad-hoc holds and orbits necessary. If the unit had kept a stock of holding a/c at TD or LIMES on Sunday art we should every day all the time - the worst may have not been so bad - holding 15 minutes or more away from the runway is dumb beyond words

Sunday: APP/FAD received many a/c at FL in the LIMES area after wx deviation (at which they may meet a VMMC arrival coming the other way) so special handling required. So for those HK ATC that don’t know yet - a/c as slow as is practical so crew will configure the a/c early resulting in much reduced turn radius (allowing S turns on base leg if necessary), steeper descent **angles** (greater altitude loss for miles across the ground), keeping crews briefed about what will happen next as it may be very different from normal ops.

All ATC on Sunday were loaded up watching for a/c busting out of adjacent sectors so in effect no level was assured without a really good look around first - a/c effectively on random routes due to the weather.

All ATC on Sunday were well outside our comfort zone - stretched even the most experienced and well exceed the experience and capabilities of others - and I am talking about uncertainty, fear and the mental paralysis that follows. The situation was changing so fast that prior co-ordination was often not possible.

I can’t speak for others but my motivation in posting is not to rubbish management (but some should go like yesterday, if not sooner, because they are clearly promoted well above their level of competence - doh! I just rubbished management!) - or expose any of us to FW fact twisting journalists of self-promoting politicians wanting to harm the careers of those they disagree with - we (the aviation professionals involved) were all lucky.

Nobody can assure any stated desired level of safety without published goals for the system as a whole and by part and transparency about actual performance. I and, I trust, HK ATC in general care deeply about ensuring HK ATC is safe, organized, and efficient. Those three concepts progress from what is most important to what is least important - **but there is a feedback loop** - inefficiency will impact organization as systems degrade and then break as they exceed capacity and capabilities - lack of organization will then impact safety as modern complex systems (A/C or ATM) only work because they are organized to work under expected stated conditions and contingencies.

Sorry for post length, too much caffeine today!

[LapSap]

Whose interests are these officials protecting, the flying public or their own Department? Based on your explanation I can only conclude that they're still busy getting their excuses together.


Well the ANSP and the Regulator are both CAD so I guess you answered your own question. Standby for some early retirements.

[By-stander]

"Well the ANSP and the Regulator are both CAD so I guess you answered your own question. Standby for some early retirements."

Who's retiring?

[jed_thrust]

With regards to:

carrying the same alternate, and that if you are tail-end Charlie, there may not be room for you? Even on the taxiways? I'm surprised how often crews are presumpuous that they will just go to Macau or Shenzhen when they get down to minimums

It may be that I am a little green about the ears, but if my flight plan has been accepted with a particular alternate, then yes, I expect to go there and find room for me.

It is up to each airfield (at the flight planning stage) to say "No, pick another alternate; we have reached our capacity".

[Some How I'm Tired]

Not true about having to be accepted to your alternate. The frequency of aircraft that actually divert to an alternate is so low that they do not consider it.

Years ago I went to an Italian airfield that ended up being closed due to fog (and only cat 1 available). When we tried to divert to our alternate, they said 'cannot, they are full'. When we asked about all the other airfields in the area, we got the same response. So we ended up going over an hour away and landing on min fuel.

Long and the short of it is: If the weather is average, plan on not being able to go to your nearest alternate. OR be prepared to declare an emergency (they MUST take you then). Like the port pages say, If the wx is average at HKG OR MFM, carry another alternate. THIS INCLUDES AREA WEATHER!!

I ALWAYS carry fuel to allow AT LEAST 2 close alternates under these conditions. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does, I've never had to suck the sheepskin covers up my ar$e!!!! Andi it costs almost no extra fuel for that peace of mind!

[By-stander]

"Last Saturday was a goatfest. The holding @ Abbey now ALL the time.. strange vectors.. maintain high speed from first girl, next girl please slow 220, next sector 250 knots please.. "

With that kind of speed control, you are definitely flying into HK . Always welcome you guys back with open arms.

[flatfilea4]

AAIGUY: "Last Saturday was a goatfest. ..."

A goatfest seems to be a popular title for music festivals in rural areas. Did you really mean: "Sterotyped Traditional East Asian Unplaned Combustion Event Response Practice Activity" ?

I blame A MAN that somehow, no one can get on with well.

Time spare - go by air!

[LapSap]

It may be that I am a little green about the ears, but if my flight plan has been accepted with a particular alternate, then yes, I expect to go there and find room for me.

Are you serious??? You really think we analyze every flight plan that nominates HK as an alternate and say, gee, we better save a spot on the taxiway for this guy in case he diverts? Matter of fact, I don't even think we get flight plans addressed to us just on the basis of being an alternate.

You have a strange idea about the way things work in the industry.

[atc colleague]

The problems in H.K. C.A.D.are many and varied . Extremely poor recruiting over the past 10 years or so has produced many below average controllers,too many females and a management staffed by incompenent fools.Spineless , back stabbing bigots ,most of them .
No wonder pilots are getting frustrated with the controllers.Their understanding of how airtraffic control works is almost non-existent. Things will only get worse as more and more of the experienced expats leave .
Bring back the Americans and Canadiens and things will improve.
God bless America.:D:D

[Iron Skillet]

What exactly does gender have to do with competence? Or the ratio of male to female employees?

[SloppyJoe]

LapSap

It was the crews ahead of you that were saying they couldn't negotiate the weather, not us! What would you like to do with those who wouldn't "have a go"? Say "get out of the way" and let someone with a green tail have a go?? Once aircraft start orbiting/holding/ wandering all over the sky of their own volition within 25 miles of the field theres no option but to hold everyone else out.Do you really work for HKG ATC? If you do I think that the above quote is the root of your problems. No option but to hold everyone :ugh: are you serious? Did anyone actually go around after getting established on the ILS? OK, I know the answer to that one, it was all diversions from the hold. Was the weather ever bad at the airport? Ah, know the answer to that one also.

[atc colleague]

Early and Iron,
No, I don't hate women at all. But in H.K. A.T.C.,it is quite evident that most of the women there, not all,are at the bottom end of the competence ladder, including the A.S.U.'s. and A.P.S.'s.Very little knowledge of exactly what they are trying to achieve, unless it is wriiten in a book . If it is in a book, they will ofcourse have no problem. But try to ad-lib or when ****e hits the fan, they get a little ''lost''.Not just my opinion , believe me.

[gweiloairline]

Lazygal/Early Go et al

See how In have revive this dying link as I promised you?

Though I must advise you to read these impostors with thy judgments.

e.g. HR's fuddled exposition (oxymoron!)on Calculus ATC (Newton's or Leibniz's?)
AAIGUY's perverted and unfair views on Chinese women controllers
FF4 calling me YAAFM when I pointed out the bigots, racists and chauvelists (wonder why the moderators tolerate and not remove them?)

Everyone is trying to come across as smart alecks and putting others down!
What they dont do is to attune themselves to modern ATC, which is
based on specialization and sectorization. We only care for what happen in our small sector, we dont co-ordinate unless Squawk 7700 appears, we concentrate in our own tasks at hand. Let the managers take the big picture,
that's their job and they get better pay than us. So if u are no.1 in a sector,
of course you will be asked to bolt, if you are smack-dab in the middle, you may be asked to slow/ Going into the next sector, if your no.1 position in the previous sector catches up the last in mine, of course you will be asked to pull right back. Have you not heard enough of the instruction "Report your speed on first contact with 1xx,yy?" - we dont even co-ordinate that, we ask you to tell the next girl what we did to you, hahhahaha

[buggaluggs]

Buggar me, if that last post is from an actual HK ATC'er, and is any indication of the standards and thought processes in play on the other end of the mic, I'm scared!

A few years ago coming into HKG in ****e WX ATC was the least of your worries, absolutely top class! Now, ATC it is becoming a threat on a good day!

As others have said, I hope it doesn't take a smoking hole for CAD to get their finger out!

[AAIGUY]

Reporter from Standard contacted me yesterday.
Think we'll be seeing this in media shortly

[AAIGUY]

Send her a email

[email protected]

[bugsquash1]

CX and KA just got screwed by ATC managers in the Standard. :=

From an insider it was a larger ATC problem not an individual controllers fault.

I just hope CX and KA managers have the balls to demand a public apology and that a few heads roll.

[gweiloairline]

boys & girls

rather than wools being pull over our eyes to the half truths, isnt it more intriguing to see how this has evolved into a political football?

e.g. Why is the scaremonger ex-HK aviation/HAECO chief so keen
to incite the public to demand a commission of inquiry? Why must he see heads roll? Has he got an axe to grind with the current aviation chief?

While HK CAA has released high=profile data about the controller involved,
"plenty of rest, plenty of positions opened, 14 years plus experience, etc etc"
Why is CPA/HDA silent about pilots expertise?

Someone is responsible, who is that someone Albert is trying to slay?:mad::mad::mad:

[Giuseppe Giovanni]

I don't think anyone is specifically trying to 'assassinate' anyone here, nor using this as an excuse to 'get even'.

These incidents on Sunday, all point towards major, serious problems within HK ATC. I've been flying in & out of HK for 15 years and can honestly say that over the last 18 months or so, there has been a BIG, noticeable difference in the competency of the controllers.

The controllers who post on this forum have been saying & warning of this for quite some time now, however talk is cheap, you say. Well, I can say first hand, that I have experienced many, many times 'at the coalface' what these controllers are indeed warning.

Who is at fault here ? Is it the controllers themselves ? No. They are operating as best they can.

They have simply not been provided with the skills, experience, resources and people power to do their jobs safely and efficiently.

So who is responsible for providing this. Obviously management.

Management are grossly neglecting their responsibility and duty. That there is the core of the problem and Sundays fiasco was a big, big warning sign of this.

So no, there is no 'axe to grind' here. Are we to ignore this blatant warning sign and simply soldier on ? When will things change then ? Once 300 or 400 hundred people have been killed ? Is that then the time to make change ?

[Sqwak7700]

Once 300 or 400 hundred people have been killed ? Is that then the time to make change ?

Most likely. The CAD has been absent from so many recent safety lapses. HKA, CPA, and now ATC. Today's corporation is managed by short sighted accountants and MBAs who have no skills to really manage. None of them have a serious stake in the corporation they manage, nor have they ever really built something from nothing. You can't expect these people to care about safety because safety costs money.

That is why we have regulators. They are there to prevent profit at all costs. Not just in aviation, but in all industry in which the public's safety is at risk from the greedy. And this is the CAD's job, at which they are grandiosely failing.

Take CPA for example. The company basically writes the rules as they wish. Any concerns brought up by individuals or the AOA are deferred to the company. Basically, self policing, which we know DOES NOT WORK. When is the last time CPA was fined for anything by the CAD? Ramp-checked, and found NOTHING outside compliance? Either CPA is perfect, or someone is not looking. :hmm:

Then look at how CPA is allowed to recruit non-locals as cadet pilots. This scheme was introduced by Cathay to make up for the fact that so many of its pilots came from other countries. A way of giving back to HKG and planting the "aviation seed" so it could grow and compensate for this mostly foreign sector of HKG. Now that program is just about 100% foreign as well, cause most locals know a ****ty deal when they see it.

I don't need an insider to tell me that ATC is in the same trouble. You take off around midnight, one of the busiest periods in HKG and when you check in on the hand off from tower you can hear the departure controller also working arrivals. WTF:confused: On days with weather this controller is talking non-stop, which is very UNSAFE. This is ridiculous and shows that the CAD is non existent in protecting the public.

So unfortunately, it will take a major air disaster to wake up the masses and demand serious punishment to the ones responsible. Until then, the CAD will remain absent from all this and continue with business as usual - because business is really the only thing they are looking after. :yuk:

[SMOC]

Totally agree with Giuseppe there has been a noticeable decline in the standards/quality of HKATC over the past year or so.

A couple of months back on a CAVOK evening, it was 6pm, we were told a delay of 45min, when asked why the reply was weather which led to what weather the reply was weather this morning!!!!

That day had thunderstorms in the early morning around 8am, I understand the problems with China's airway system but delayed to TPE? When we finally got airborne we virtually went direct ELATO without a cloud in the sky, nor was there any significant traffic, We believed ATC may have been short staffed due to the morning workload was more likely.

We're all lucky HK has dodged all the typhoons again, the perfect storm is approaching and I'm not talking just about typhoons, HKCAD you better wake up and take your head out of your .......

[crwjerk]

HKATC have been exonerated, and now both flights will be investigated into why they ignored ATC instructions.

[crewsunite]

Can someone please tell me what was going on with a B744 departing about today 29th at 16:50 just airborne and "seemly" taking avoiding action from another Cx twin.

or was this just an optical illusion.

[lepsap]

re-position of flight, just a matter of angle of viewing. no problem there. no need to be so sensitive.

[OnlyYOU]

Rumours has it that Manwell is the new President of the Controllers Association, any truth in this? His last push for GM?

[ATCX]

Who is our saviour? :confused:

[gweiloairline]

jerk

hkcad statement has clearly said that the pilots did not obey or respond to
atc.

[gweiloairline]

The new president should issue a press release quoting the cad
to backup his/her members demanding actions be taken againist the cockpit crews. In uk, this will be expected of a strong union:D:D:D:D

[atc colleague]

MANWELL should be the new assoc. president because they both deserve each other as both are a complete waste of space.

[thetimenow]

The CAD press release also said:

"On a normal day, there are typically eight controller working positions for the Approach Control Sectors in the Air Traffic Control Centre. In anticipation of the traffic complexity due to bad weather, one additional working position was opened up (for a total of nine) on September 18, and 13 controllers were on duty to man the nine positions in managing the air traffic. The staffing provision was considered sufficient to meet the traffic level."

Only 8 physical Approach stream control positions - no 9th exists - normal staff levels do not allow all 8 open for extended periods and usually only staffed for any 7 at a time. App supervisor needs to work under the then normal rostering arrangements and even under a recent update. This is of course provided everyone turns up. Office can provide some contin

Of the 8 positions - two lack the normal desk fittings for strip handling and one has a non-standard coms layout.

NOT ENOUGH STAFF that Sunday or any other day of the year - sorry to shout but it seems like some are a bit deaf in CAD.

So one press release about one of the incidents around that time:

Why no release about the second incident with one of the aircraft involved in the first incident a few minutes later?

Why no press release about the secondary frequencies in use following multiple primary frequency failures earlier in the day (so NO backups if the single point of failure Comms unit fails - as they do)?

Why no press release about the fuel related Maydays?

That Sunday HK ATC broke - chaos - that warrants an honest open press release - why wait for the 'smoking hole' as someone else here put it before CAD admits the true state of HK ATC?

[Iron Skillet]

Were these supposedly "ignored ATC instructions" given during the supposed RA?

(If so, it seems nobody has mentioned ATC instructions must be ignored and TCAS RA instructions must be followed instead, in all cases, to avoid a collision.)

[A-GPS]

We should not ignore ATC instructions. Too bad.

[flatfilea4]

TOIL - what does any EG or late-break as you call it have to do with anything that happens in the middle of a shift? How about we trace your IP address and punish you for being too stupid?

[crwjerk]

jerk

hkcad statement has clearly said that the pilots did not obey or respond to
atc.

that's what I said....... your point is?

[Iron Skillet]

A-GPS (and others), don't you know what a TCAS RA is?

Have you heard of the midair collision over Europe because one crew obeyed ATC instructions instead of their RA instructions? Are you familiar with the phrase "TCAS RA/climb/descent" that means the aircraft will not follow ATC instructions until the imminent collision is avoided?

[SMOC]

Hell above|HongKong Focus|chinadaily.com.cn (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkedition/2011-10/04/content_13835755.htm)

[gweiloairline]

i can see this thread is dying again, lets close it
and return to work as the storm in the teacup is blowing over:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[throw a dyce]

Before you go,have a look at the UK AAIB archive report 1/89.
It was between a Tristar GBBAH and TU154 LZBTE over Lydd on 6/2/88.
Many sobering and parallel lessons to be learned,and it looks like the HKCAD has learned little in 24 years.Not surprising really.:rolleyes:

[yat.kin.fat.choy]

Close this thread. TAD will learn his own lesson in different occurrences before his friend yat.kin.fat.choy invites him for a long party.

[throw a dyce]

Y.K.F.C
I haven't got a clue what you are wittering about,and I guess the pilots will be the same.Sort of sums up the problem really with tin cans full of hundreds of people flying around and your ICAO level ?*! English at the helm.
This dragon is glad to be OUT.:)

[LapSap]

Agreed t.a.d.
YKFC, I've tried to understand what you are saying. No, really. But for the life of me, I just can't figure out any of your posts.
Please tell me I don't work with you on a regular basis- or are you on the 'whacky watch'? That would explain a lot.

[gweiloairline]

TAD

your quoted ukaiib incident bears no resemblance at all to what happened
in hk on 18 Sep. Our opposite numbers in uk failed to co-ordinate as they should have, each one working their own on each offending tin-can;
in hk our doctrine is "respect airspace integrity and minimum co-ord",
the 2 iron-birds were under the same girl's control. So dont try to be a smart-aleck and think you know all, you know nothing!

AT

RADAR is easy to spell, two As either way;
APPRAISE and APPRISE are not, one tricky A makes hell to your spelling.

Also are you serious about asking youse honker co-workers to take their
180-day leave? Do you really not know that they are all forced to accumulate and not spend because "management" has to make sure that
youse honkies get your colonial legacy of "annual leave" in every year?

Otherwise, they have hell to explain to the overlords in civil service board
why they fail to do so. Local honkers are much easier to manipulate
coz they all want their promotion

Also, dont tell me that you only get 1 late break every shift?
How many breaks did you have before youse snuck away at 1:30pm?

Stay hungry but stay contented:

[hkatc Management]

The past months were extremely testing times for Management. Frankly, our only real problem is the controllers. Recently, they have cheekily claimed they do not get enough leave, they don’t get long enough breaks, they are overworked and suffer fatigue etc. They even say there is a shortage of controllers – how could they possibly know? Management has heard it all before and is not impressed. Statistics are very useful – and recent statistics available to all in the name of Transparency - show the opposite to be true and suggest Management is doing an excellent job as usual.

Some controllers have accumulated 180 day of annual leave, but the truth is they actually don’t want their leave and are happy to accumulate leave and TOIL so they can retire 6-12 months early 20 years from now. These days, practically everybody requesting leave gets it. Anybody saying otherwise is lying, simple truth!

Management makes sure lots of leave is given to the controllers by making others work on their day 10, by rostering staff 5 on - 1 off, 4 on- 1 off etc and Management brilliantly staggers the shifts so controllers are able to work two and a half hours before their well-deserved half hour dinner break followed by another two hours of work. Management rosters the supervisors to work and combines positions on the Daily Manning template. Management even goes to the extreme of assigning controllers annual leave on their days off between 2 cycles so their leave balance does not exceed 180 days. Thus, Management does everything it possibly can to make sure controllers get leave. The staffing situation in atcx is most healthy and there are no problems here at all. In actual fact, there is a surplus of controllers and therefore it has been decided that a new Management position will be created in a shiny new office on the Fourth Floor. That will fix all future problems. By creating this new position Super-Management once again shows just how clever and vigilant it is and this will prevent occurrences like 9-18 from ever happening again. Speaking of 9-18 it must be pointed out that – in spite of what was viciously written in the press - the manning on that day was more than sufficient. Extra positions were opened; there were plenty of controllers at work on the day and the individual controllers workload was reasonable and with plenty of breaks as well. In fact, one extra controller was rostered on September 18 to cater for unexpected events like this minor hiccup. Everything was under complete control at all times and all actions were executed in a calm and orderly fashion. At absolutely no point was any aircraft in any danger in any way. Super-Management had a meeting with Dragonair and Cathay representatives and the 3 parties reached the conclusion that it was simply an unfortunate one-off system error. After the meeting Management changed course and blamed the pilots in the official report. How cunning of Super-Management! Now the 2 airlines involved have missed the chance to argue their case and we found ourselves squeaky clean as always.

You can all rest assured that Management will continue to selflessly do its best to improve the controllers already excellent working conditions. The controllers, however, seem forever ungrateful and do not appreciate this hard work at all. Such pathetic commoners and normal deviants – they lack discipline, integrity and vision. On top of that, according to our statistics, they only work 36.17 hours a week. The controllers are mere pimples on the bottom of mankind! Management spits in their general direction.



Off to lunch now, my Blackberry is vibrating.

[TOIL]

need help to track the IP address of hkatc Management :=
he should be hanged :E

[bro.mo.yung]

hkatc Management, the weather is getting cold, save your gas to warm your stomach. Why not line up to collect the reimbursement from the union which had declared bankruptcy last night. :{:{

[RRSM]

That is not very cool. Death threats do not really belong in this forum. Moderators please step in.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Stepped in, looked, enjoyed the irony that might not be apparent to those with Eglish as a 2nd, 3rd or 4th language.

Rob

[On the beach]

"Eglish"

Or those with Eglish as a first langwidge. :E

OTB

[throw a dyce]

Gweilo,
I look forward to reading the offical HKCAD report about 9-18,to see what happened and why the traffic was allowed to build up to dangerous levels.As I said many lessons to be learned.
You will probably find that it will be used in UK Truce training,as an example of how NOT to do ATC.
Apart from that you wanted the thread closed,and then start it up again all by yourself.:D
Bye bye bigger fish to fly.
TAD:p

[Beholder]

TAD, THAT REPORT IS ONLY FOR EVERYONE EXCEPT YOU, WHO IS BEING FIRED BY US.......NO MORE CONTRACT! :ok::}

[The White Rabbit]

Boing! Boing! Boing! Step aside! The exodus for Dubai has started. More to come. Even locals!!! Hop on the bandwagon while you can! Boing! Boing! Boing!
Quite mad.

[throw a dyce]

I think that a lot of the locals are virtually unemployable elsewhere in the world.Look at some of the drivel that Beholder and Gweiloairline come away with.Is the travelling public safe with them and would the like of Nats employ them.Would they validate in the real world.Answers on a postcard.
At least the 3 year contractors have proved themselves elsewhere to even get the job in HK,and most who are not retired are still working in ATC.(In the real world).:zzz:

[By-stander]

"The exodus for Dubai has started" ?????? Who's leaving?

[LapSap]

You work here right??? Ask around. You'll probably get more than one name. :cool:

[gweiloairline]

[QUOTE]I think that a lot of the locals are virtually unemployable elsewhere in the world.Look at some of the drivel that Beholder and Gweiloairline come away with.Is the travelling public safe with them and would the like of Nats employ them.Would they validate in the real world.Answers on a postcard.
At least the 3 year contractors have proved themselves elsewhere to even get the job in HK,and most who are not retired are still working in ATC.(In the real world)[/UNQUOTE]

TAD

Are you suffering from some sort of complex?
Why is everything you say gospel, and somebody else's drivel?

All I have done is refute with hard facts unfair and unfound allegations of some,
e.g. you would have us believe that a domestic incident in UK 10 years ago
is lesson to learn for big international airport like VHHH, involving international FIRs and multi-systems. I refuted you.

AT pulled wool over ATC Management's eyes by saying that he/she only got
a late break because none was possible during the shift due to insufficient manning. Fact is they all got breaks too many that make them lazy.

You say HK guys are unemployable elsewhere. Perhaps you did not know coz
you had been sacked by VHHH before 1990 that in 80-90, it was VHHH controllers who bailed out ASSY to allow their centres from normal running.

TAD - you are so pathetic, you should come out of your NATS cocoon and
face the real world, come to Dubai and let me teach you how to do ATC, internationally!:=:=:=:=

[Beholder]

TAD was being fired by us years ago. He hates us so much. There is tattoo on his bone saying "I hate hkatc because they fired me......:ugh::ugh:

I like very much to teach you how to do atc but we will start from unload the strip from the bucket first.

TAD, a fired ex-employee of hkatc, you are pathetic.

[LapSap]

Steady on.
If TAD is who I think he is, I recall he chose not to ask for another contract for family reasons. Wasn't fired. I daresay he could teach you a bit about ATC if your ears weren't covering your eyes.

Beholder. Yes, you are definitely holding something.

Now, back to the thread. Any advance on 4 to Dubai?

[TOIL]

he could only teach me to leave tower as early as 1pm.
he is the godfather of early-go.
that's why he was sacked by Jeorge.

[Careless]

Did he get kicked out in the middle of his contract? If not, he wasn't fired. :=

[By-stander]

Will Dubai be providing controllers with "late breaks"? It's pretty tempting if they do.

[gweiloairline]

Bystander

Sorry, no dyce!:=:=:=:=:=

We are not welfare states or colonial governments;

Early gos/Late breaks/sickies (we dont have Rugby-7, wine fests, etc etc)
is not the trait in self-respecting
workers in developing countries; try your elsewhere.....:{:{:{:{

[watsup]

gweilo..,
You couldn't possibly work in Dubai as you say as your chinglish is so poor . You are obviously one of the many H.K. locals who failed to pass the simulator.
TAD has forgotten more about ATC than you will ever learn. Keep those strips coming bonehead.

[Rule3]

So the Rugby 7s we are attending in Dubai in December are a figment of our imagination.:ugh:

TAD was a respected controller in HK and left of his own free will.:ok:

Please give us all a break and STFU.

[EARLY-GO]

Is there any early-go in Dubai?

[gweiloairline]

EARLY GO

EG, LB, SICKIE are virtually unheard of here.

Everyone works diligently like true professionals and dont care
about vacation leave, coz they are already in heaven.

That;s why we dont have TROUBLE IN ATC.

Time to close the thread for good:}:}:}:}:}

[AAIGUY]

another sh*t show out there last night around 930pm... Ground chick (local) completely ovewhelmed, expat controller had to take over, Apron screwing up gate assigments, Cathay 74 doing a overshoot from about 50 ft due to Asiana trying to roll all the way through to E18 gate instead of taking A7.

It was surreal @ one point.:ugh:


HK is supposed to be world class, the whole operation was amateur.

[The White Rabbit]

A sh*t show! Did someone say a sh*t show? I love a good sh*t show! Ahhh, Veronica Moser......

You don't have to be mad to work here but it helps!

Surreal? Never!!! This is as real as it gets!!!
Your Honour, I wish to enter Exhibit B, 52 shiny bizjets all looking for a home.
Very well, but they'll take up all the bays.
Bah, no problem, we can tow them backwards and forwards across the runway all day- preferably when noone is taking off.
Apron will love it. They love a good sh*t show too.
Objection!
Objection from the Controllers Union.
Obviously an imposter- there is no Controllers Union any more- off with his head!

A***** rolling through to the end? Don't you love those ELP4 airlines? Correction, ELP2 but went to one of those magical language schools run by Wheaties

Left...
right...
no left...
roger right...
Turn whatever way you want...

Time for a nap. A very long one. With any luck it was all a nightmare.

Boing! Boing!

[yat.kin.fat.choy]

Union, please refund the membership fees to all members cos' you do not function any more. Your only role is to ask for free tickets to very few members.

[watsup]

yat....,
Pal, this thread is officially D E A D .RIP.
So if you want your money, go ask the assoc. for your refund .
All the gweilos realised that the assoc. was a waste of time many years ago. The only reason that it still exists is because boneheads like you keep paying the annual fee.:ugh:
As I said.......R.I.P.

[brother4]

wats..., thanks for your information, RIP = REFUND IN PROGRESS! :E

[Ta4eiqwailo]

another sh*t show out there last night around 930pm... Ground chick (local) completely ovewhelmed, expat controller had to take over, Apron screwing up gate assigments, Cathay 74 doing a overshoot from about 50 ft due to Asiana trying to roll all the way through to E18 gate instead of taking A7.

It was surreal @ one point.:ugh:


HK is supposed to be world class, the whole operation was amateur.

This piece of work had been a real p.i.a to others as well as himself on anything Hong Kong or China or Chinese. I wonder what this closet masochist do to amuse himself when he is not in pain.

In world class LAX they had a lady controller clearing a B737 to land on a Metroliner some 20 years ago:sad:.

[atfso]

Time to review if we still have trouble!

[Beholder]

The only trouble is our management that they can manage. Hopefully their new deputy director knows what is management.

[FAD]

I wonder whether we are still in one piece when the new deputy director starts her on-job training.

[lee.ho.ma]

Trouble in Hk atc..........we are losing a director, no leadership.

[VSD]

The trouble in HK atc is the temperature in the centre, it is too cold in the centre.