EK trainer's "pay" [Archive]

pool

20th May 2011, 03:14

It's the seesaw of life. Once it shifted to one side it takes a lot of effort to make it come up and fall on the other side.

It's quite stable once on ground on either side!

At the moment it's steady on the dirty side. Who would want to go there? Maybe mudwrestlers.

On the other hand I know of at least two guys who were not considered for training who would bring in some competence and a lot of aviation common sense.
But I guess that was the very reason for the rejection which points to some more serious problems in training than the dire T&C's.

harry the cod

20th May 2011, 07:31

Slightly off topic but reflective perhaps of the current culture within this Company.

Cabin crew have seen a miserly increase just announced with pursers getting a grand total of 100 dhs a month extra on basic. Their flight pay has been increased by 2 or 3 dhs an hour. My calculations makes that a 2% rise on basic and just under 3 on flight pay. That averages out at just under 2.5% overall. Half of their salary is made up of flight pay hence their indifference also to the profit share. The purser last night was livid. A 'smack in the face' was how she described it after 18 months of 115-125 hour months and 7-8 days off. She said that was the decision made and would be leaving in November. When she does, she will personaly give KG a 100 dhs note and tell him to put it towards filling up his Company Mercedes GL. "What can I realistically do with just another 100 dhs a month with prices rising everywhere", she said. "I'd rather go back home and be poor than poor here!" The really sad part was that she meant it. She was also bloody brilliant at her job and was, without doubt, one of the better pursers i've recently flown with. She said she was also tired of flying with incompetent crew, especially some SFS's who were there only because of a clean sickness record and nothing to do with ability, common sense and personality.

Doesn't it just sum up how greed is slowly destroying this airline. I'm not sure how many are leaving each month but with the large numbers needed, I can only see things getting worse on the other side of the door within the next 6-12 months.

Harry

Oblaaspop

20th May 2011, 07:57

Good post Harry.

With all the pontificating going on from us guys about the package, it's easy to forget how badly those working just a few feet behind the FD door are treated.... an absolutely contemptuous package increase for them!!!

The 8.15% increase on a Capts basic alone is more than the entire basic salary of a Grade 2!:eek:

What we have here then is a classic example of supply and demand..... on the one hand, you have the Pilot application pool running VERY close to empty (only about 4 months worth of interviewees left to plough through apparently), hence the company had no choice but to put its hands in its pockets (not very deeply and IMHO not nearly deeply enough to solve the impending problem) and give us a package increase.

On the other hand, you have a seemingly never ending supply of young, keen kids from some of the worlds nastiest poo holes who are literally banging the door down to join the 'mighty' Emirates. It's not uncommon for a Crew road show to attract over 500 attendees in one day of which only 10 will be taken on...... Nevertheless, they just keep on coming!

So clearly from an accountants point of view, they really cant justify giving the crew a decent package enhancement. Unfortunately, the reality is that our crew are getting less and less experienced and are generally from parts of the world where customer service doesn't exist! Don't even get me started on the safety implications:mad:

There is no question in my mind that this mentality will eventually come round and bite the company in on the bottom!

donpizmeov

20th May 2011, 08:07

Slight correction there Oblaapspop, we got a 5% pay rise. The other 3% is the increment. Those on the top of the scale only received 5%.

Too bloody right though, the cabin crew are treated very badly. The basic pay of a grade 2 has only increased by a few hundred dirhams in the past decade. The company relies on lack of corporate memory (ie want cabin crew to leave) so no one notices.

The Don
PS. It would seem the whole company has been informed about the traing allowance increase, except of course the trainers themselves that have been told nothing. A good reflection of how the group are held in the eyes of the management. An interesting way to run a business.

harry the cod

20th May 2011, 08:20

Well, funny you mention safety. We had a quick chat after the flight. It was then she told me that the pre flight briefing was a disaster. The SFS had failed her question and the second question. She barely got the third right even after the purser was kind enough to 'come back to her after she's gone around the room'.

The SFS didn't know the % of lifejackets to check and basic stuff on Oxygen. And this is supposed to be a senior crew member who leads by example. She even had the ovens switched on for T/O. :=

Only wish i'd known this on the turnround as a little chat would have been in order.

Anyway, sorry for threadcreep, back to the training debacle!

Harry

Don. Yeah, agreed with the payrise. I never include the increment in the rise. That's a reward for seniority. The 5% is something different.

jack schidt

20th May 2011, 08:24

Around high 40s of new Jets to be delivered to EK by end of next year!! Thats a LOAD of crew front and back. The company knows that the pilot brotherhood is small and close. If the company pays the drivers crap then we send the word out and at home people decide not to come, simple as that and the company CAN'T AFFORD not to have the drivers for their billion dollar deliveries.

Cabin crew selection, well they recruit from all areas on the planet where people are willing to do the C Crew job and will be pleased to get 3500AED a month here. It's market forces plain and simple.

SFS and Purser selection is by negative selection I agree. Some great crew have come and gone because of this incompetent policy of number of sick days taken as the primary attribute for the position. Having flown well over 2 decades, I can honestly say there are quite a few incompetent Purser and SFS crew down the back who could be replaced with competent crew who have been prevented gaining the position. What to do, incompetence breeds incompetence as we can see from the selection of these crew.

Regarding trainers in EK, if anyone has any complaints and is not a trainer then don't complain as you have no knowledge except rumours as to what goes on in the training department. The trainers do a thankless task and without the training checking going on there would be no airline. Those who are in the training department are working extremely hard to keep up with demands as others are too afraid to join the department, due to lack of competence or whatever other reason they come up with. The sooner the training department comes up to manning strength and more people are trained into the L + R seats the easier all our lives will become to help with the ever increasing demands from the company. If you want to work the same number of days in a month as a line pilot and take another reasonable salary for the same number of days at work, go apply, if not... no knowledge means no comment. :rolleyes:

thrash

20th May 2011, 10:25

If you don't respect training management how can you apply to be a trainer.
Perhaps this is where they should start if they are having trouble attracting new trainers.
So many experienced, good and senior trainers in the company but none in positions of training management. Why is that?
MM. Another SVP. Can't leave well-enough alone. Wants to create a brave new world.
RN. Who?
DM. Enough said.
I could go on but what's the point?

Oblaaspop

20th May 2011, 10:45

Thrush, I actually think MM has done a hell of a lot of good for the dept! Sadly despite his best efforts, he is continually hitting his head against the ceiling of incompetence above him (AAR) who refuses to acknowledge there's a problem. MM was actually pushing for a SIGNIFICANT increase in Trainers packages and lifestyles, but was granted just a 1000 AED increase!

RN - Again he has done a lot of good since he has been fronting his section. He managed to go through the Boeing training dept with a big axe and chop a lot of guys who had clung on for way too long..... He trod where others feared to!

Both of these guys are generally well liked and respected amongst the Trainers working for them, so what is your point?

Princess MeMe aka DM on the other hand.......:rolleyes: I completely agree with you on that one...... Oxygen thief!!

Fellowship of the drink

20th May 2011, 11:05

Instead we have guys who, after a few drinks at the BBQ, openly confess that they applied only to improve their rosters!

Surely you jest! Have you taken a look at any TRI or TRE's roster lately? LTCs are doing 3 am training flights as well as minimum rest turnarounds. I don't know about you but that is hardly worth writing home about.

thrash

20th May 2011, 12:13

Ob's,
The point is, who are the 'customers' of the training department?
Mainly line pilots.
Who is the training department trying to attract to become trainers?
Line pilots.
Whether or not you, as a trainer, respect your bosses is irrelevant as I (for one), cannot see the good you are talking about.
I can see that every training event is now graded and can be failed (that doesn't concern me particularly however I have an issue with the 'concept' of failing a training session).
I can see a change to the format of PPCs and whatever it is you call the new 'check' and wonder why. Evidence-based training? Please. What professor in some university who has never flown an aircraft came up with that? Reason?
I can also see a newbie network of 'old boys' taking over when we already have good guys onboard who are being passed over, or not applying to be management, for some reason, i.e. AS, JA, MM, RN...care to comment?
And one final point. Who earns money for the airline? Line pilots or trainers? The training department is a cost. Airplanes from A to B earn revenue. I fail to see how trainers expect to earn more money. Non-flying trainers and checkers would be a cheaper option all round.

reebs.320

20th May 2011, 13:09

Wow Vagrant! That's some vitriol,you need to lighten up somewhat:sad:

Fack5

20th May 2011, 19:31

if anyone has any complaints and is not a trainer then don't complain as you have no knowledge except rumours

What the line pilots have is the "evidence-based" knowledge of the product you are sending out to the line and in many cases, that's more than enough: An imbalance of well-trained pilots (read well-prepared and good attitude, getting themselves through the "training") versus those typified by lack of preparation, non-adherence to SOPs, non-adherence to standard calls, non-adherence to correct RT procedures, and general slack, lazy approach.

I have many complaints about what you are letting through, Jack. This is my right.

Cabin crew have seen a miserly increase just announced with pursers getting a grand total of 100 dhs a month extra on basic

Now and then, you meet some great cabin crew who look after the flight crew well and everyone is getting along famously and treating each other as equals (more or less) and fellow professionals. FOr these crew, I feel sympathy at their treatment and lack of reasonable change in recompense.

But the general CC standard is disinterested, lackadaisical, grudging "service" by crew who have not the slightest motivation beyond JUST maintaining what their impression of the required standards has devolved to over the years. Barely able and/or willing to hold a conversation, they make no effort to hide the fact they have little, if any, interest in the well-being of the flight crew and so they shouldn't be surprised if many drivers do not give a rat's ass about their conditions! :hmm:

White Knight

20th May 2011, 19:56

Fack5 - a jolly good post!!!!! Some of those getting through training have been thoroughly shocking on the line:\:\ As for the CC you are correct!!!

donpizmeov

20th May 2011, 22:46

Varmint,

I am sorry to hear that you have had a hard time with the EK training department. But you see the TRE that is conducting your check gets to see the other few thousand of your colleagues as well, and he will be looking at your performance vs theirs. If your colleagues have taken the time to learn the EK SOP, and the correct way to talk on the radio, they will be marked higher than you. Its that simple really. Unfortunately it EKs train set and if you want to work here you have to play with it using their rules. If you think things should be changed, write in and make suggestions.
I am sure you spent many minutes learning the answers to your ATP exam, and were highly regarded when flying regional, however you decided to leave that. You decided that EK was a better airline for you than where you were before. But now you want EK to drop its training standards to your level. The vast majority of our pilots are to an incredibly high standard. They get off their @rses and study and prepare before going to a training or checking session. There are a few who turn up and expect to be spoon fed, and will whinge and make up excuse after excuse about why they can't perform as well as their peers. These are the guys that make the trainer want to, as you suggested, "puke".
Good on you for being able to fly the EK network. This would also be the same network that the trainers would fly wouldn't it? Or does it all become less complicated and easier when they fly it?

The Don

dubaicrew

20th May 2011, 23:25

[QUOTE=Fack5;6463607

But the general CC standard is disinterested, lackadaisical, grudging "service" by crew who have not the slightest motivation beyond JUST maintaining what their impression of the required standards has devolved to over the years. Barely able and/or willing to hold a conversation, they make no effort to hide the fact they have little, if any, interest in the well-being of the flight crew and so they shouldn't be surprised if many drivers do not give a rat's ass about their conditions! :hmm:[/QUOTE]

Agreed, most of the time the pilots i serve are courteous, respectful and reasonable.
But every now and then, i get, "please get me a bowl of nuts, remove the macademias and almonds', or " Non Emirates or Dubai water" "put together a meal from five different casseroles"
Last time i checked, i wasnt your wife, is what i really want to say.

givemewings

21st May 2011, 00:40

Dubaicrew, most of the wives wouldn't be doing that either, the maid would :E

Agree, there are (thankfully a minority) of FD crew out there who think we have all the time in the world to cater to their sometimes bizarre requests. There are, however, an equal amount of cabin crew who think they are above accommodating even the slightest request for something that deviates from the norm. Want to BYO your own lunch Captain? Certainly, give me some notice as to when you want it & I'll gladly heat it up. You want a different dressing on the salad, okay, I'll go ask F if they have another type. Just please be patient if you call us in the middle of a service ;)

Does annoy me to see crew who just can't be bothered to even go and say "hi" once on an 8-hour plus flight... c'mon, it's 30sec out of your life and a chance to escape from the back for a bit. Some cabin crew complain that cockpit never talk much about anything. Err... last time I checked a conversation was 2 sided, ask them stuff, about their family, where they're from, that iPad they're not supposed to be using... :E

Sorry for the thread drift, back to the point, it seems many of the problems/issues we as crew (either FD or CC) have with the company boil down to management not recognising that not everything comes down to money and the beancounters ignoring things which may not be immediately measurable in money (i.e. morale, sense of engagement etc) but which if taken care of properly will more than pay for any initial investment in the long run. The areas which usually suffer are training and working conditions.

Just look at the airline industry elsewhere to see how that one can work out...

Jumeirah James

21st May 2011, 12:06

I had to chuckle at "Princess Me Me!" :E

White Knight

21st May 2011, 15:29

Is the RT standard the same worldwide

Just about! You'll find differences in LIDO. Such as the UK using "Flight level wun hundred" instead of "flight level wun zero zero", and the Aussies will call you "Emirates four thirty-four" instead of "Emirates four three four". As for the Yanks:D, anything goes:p:p

Oblaaspop

21st May 2011, 15:33

Varmint, If you use the UK CAA CAP413, you will be using 'standard RT'. It is JAR compliant (the rest of the world outside the US!!) and sounds much more professional than the crap spouted by certain N American 'cowboys'.

I too am sick to death of hearing 'Emirates 123 level three five oooohhhhh' or '4246 comin' down with the flash'. That sh1t might sound cool in the States my friend, but frankly it makes the rest of us want to vomit! BTW, it's not even standard in the US!!!

Get educated my friend and stop blaming everyone else for your lack of it!

For your future reference, if you stick rigidly to the SOP's, there is not one trainer that would be able to argue that you are in the wrong as you would be able to point out the error of their ways in 'the book'. So I can only surmise that you weren't clear on the SOP's from the outset? I guess that is the training depts fault as well??:hmm:

Vagrant

21st May 2011, 16:58

"Thanks for a serious response instead of the "vagrant" like responses"

Not sure what that means......

V

new tomcat

21st May 2011, 17:30

All of you wimps and your RT. Is that all you have to bitch about?
How about getting a real contract or industry leading pay to go along with your industry leading profits that your company reported.
Who invented this industry? It seems like you chaps are the ones that have deviated from the norms.
When you have the amount of volume that the US has each day you can't speak like you are in kindergarten.
Thirty two fifty two takes half the time to say then one three two decimal five two zero. I graduated kindergarten 45 years ago and know how to speak. If you want to clog up the frequency with your rudementary english than go ahead. Just be sure to include yourself in the unprfessional catergory of wasting too much time on frequency.
And when you amateurs fly to the states speak like the cowboys do. Maybe when you start speaking like us you will start acting like us. Then that will carry over to pay as well as your "contract" or lack thereof.

Alconguin Crusader

21st May 2011, 17:51

Well said tomcat!
You should see how professional EK trainning department is.
Only about 5-6 years behind the times.
The HR and Flight department is a complete joke. Total lack of regards and respect. And rule of law but that doesn't count in the middle east.
Some pilots actually like it here. Can't imagine what they came from to enjoy the treatment at Emirates.

Praise Jebus

21st May 2011, 17:51

The EK R/T standard is not the UK CAAP. It's LIDO which is EUR-OPS, then refer to state differences for their specific requirements. CAAP 413 is for use in UK airspace only. I don't care what you use, just be clear and concise.

Maybe when you start speaking like us you will start acting like us
That's why we don't speak like you....

captainsmiffy

21st May 2011, 17:58

...wonderfully put!!

new tomcat

21st May 2011, 18:10

And that explains the difference in pay, days off and the rest of your contract.
Don't let your jealousy get in the way of an industry leading contract.
The US gets over 100,000 applicants a day to work in the US.
Probably at least half the worlds population would literally give their left nut to work in the US. If you look at what the worlds pilots make compared to the US it is apples and oranges when you compare apples to apples.
That is DL or AA to Virgin, BA or Qantas.

Oblaaspop

21st May 2011, 18:33

Hey Tomcat as you seem to be a bit of a mines bigger than yours type of guy, I can absolutely GUARANTEE that my package is bigger than yours:E

A back taxed skippers total package here is around 1.2m AED pa or $330k

Of course you can slap on the $29k tax free bonus I just got, but I don't want to rub your nose in it!!

For all the nay sayers that are about to post crap denying the figures, work it out for yourselves. Make sure you include all the bits like Provident fund, 850hrs flying pa, a couple of kids in secondary school and of course take into account accommodation and back tax.

Also as this is a thread about trainers' pay, a TRI could slap another $38k on top, so for the 12 months May '11 to May '12, he will be earning the equivalent of close to $400k. Now, what was your point again?:hmm:

Days off? Guys on the Boeing and A380 are getting upto 15 days off per month. You?

Payscale

21st May 2011, 18:54

Gee.... Chaps. Bitching about this and that.....
Do the job you are paid for or pack up your family and go home. It will make you happier and live longer.
Be safe, efficient and legal and noone can touch you. Yes instructors will give you techniques, if there is not a set procedure. ie ANC AAM is very loose, so some guys will help out and tell a trainee and alternative way of managing a problem. Thats how I got thru my command with a little help from an instructor.
Only teaching SOP and layed down policies is not really instruction. Finding the root cause of your problem and correcting it is.

donpizmeov

22nd May 2011, 02:58

Still a bit upset about not getting that DEC gig TOMCAT? Let it go, I am sure it was just an administrative error that kept such a high caliber application as yours out of the company. :ok:

The Don

donpizmeov

22nd May 2011, 08:03

Varmint, sounds like you may be on the Boeing then. Sorry about that.

5star

22nd May 2011, 10:29

Please let us know how you get an EXTRA $38K/year as TRI. Else stop spreading this cr@p.

I don't think they would be begging for trainers for $38K...

From what I've heard from friends, it's not worth it unless you want to be in Dubai all the time....

5star.

Payscale

22nd May 2011, 10:34

its about 28,000 usd for a TRI. 7500 + 1000 transport= 8500 x 12/ 3.62

Wizofoz

22nd May 2011, 12:20

That's base. There is also extra if more than 12 training duties are completed in a month. Probably means another 3 or 4k US.

Plus trainers are getting productivity at the moment as they are doing huge hours.

So yes, it's more money, but you work for it!

donpizmeov

22nd May 2011, 12:25

Payscale have you seen those new numbers for a TRI officially yet? Or is it still only being talked about? Will it be effective 1st May?

the Don

Payscale

22nd May 2011, 12:40

No but was in ETC last Thursday. Someone from the 2 floor told that all that will be in the package this year. 1000 dids more. Lets see it in writing, but that the word anyway.

Oblaaspop

22nd May 2011, 12:56

5 Star, no problem mate.....

8500x12=102000 x 40% tax = 142800 / 3.65 = $39k (sorry I under estimated it by a grand!:hmm:)

Varmint, you are clearly from North America because you have been brought to task about your non standard RT. It is also evident that you are from that neck of the woods as you have not turned up prepared for a sim and require spoon feeding:E

There is NOT ONE trainer in this company who would OR could argue against or mark you down for not using prescribed SOP's. I suggest you 'recollection' of events is somewhat smudged by the fact you think the entire training department is crap and has it in for you. Strange that 99% of your colleagues don't seem to have the same issues yet you have had issues with at least 2 trainers probably more. At some point you may well have to look within! Toughen up partner.

Tomcat, believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around your motherland. If the aviation industry is so splendid in the good 'ol US of A, why is it that the vast majority of our current applicants are from there? The second largest nationality of pilots in EK now is from the US (after the UK of course:}). Also you guys may well have pioneered Powered Flight, but lets face it it was PERFECTED else where..... Twas the Brits who invented the Jet Engine, the FIRST Jet Airliner and Autoland to name a few and of course ENGLISH (not American English) is the international RT language!

Also for your information, statistically the most congested section of airspace on the planet is in Southern England (the London TMA to be exact), but clearly as you have no experience outside of NA you couldn't be expected to know that!!

Instant Hooligan

22nd May 2011, 14:02

obl's
Given my rudimentary mathematical knowledge to earn 102,000AED after tax you would have to earn 170,000aed at a straight 40% tax rate, not 142,800.

5star

22nd May 2011, 14:03

opblaas.

Funny reasoning you have.
I think you must be in management the way you are 'selling' Ek and it's pay structure. Please leave it out next time as nobody cares.

Payscale

22nd May 2011, 14:52

Applying tax to a PAYSCALE from Emirates is utterly nonsense... fantasy lalaland stuff.. enjoy this thread, I am out of it :)

Oblaaspop

22nd May 2011, 15:11

Sorry 5 Star, what's funny about my reasoning? Care to elaborate?

Instant, you are right, however that only serves to make my point even stronger!

Idler, quite right, I'm not in management! However, if there's anything else you care to point out that's factually inaccurate about my mathematics, then please go ahead. If however you have nothing of any value to bring to the table with the adults, then butt out!

Payscale, I disagree. If (like Tomcat) people wish to compare packages, it MUST be done like for like otherwise it's a pointless comparison is it not?

Guys, I am the first to admit that things need improving greatly around here. The package though isn't really that bad is it? BE HONEST chaps. Now fatigue, schedules and other IMPORTANT issues are another thing and have been covered greatly on this forum...... This thread is regarding pay! For what it's worth (as I mentioned on the bonus thread) I think we were short changed on the Profit Share, however I am also adult enough to realise that even Tomcat's airline didn't pay out 12 weeks. It's called being objective.

new tomcat

22nd May 2011, 15:13

Olbay you just have not perfected the art of the contract hence you work your arse off each month.
The vast majoirity of US pilots at Emirates are either from US Air (sucks) or the regionals (they really suck.) Any of those pilots that go to Emirates get a good pay increase but I am sure that you won't see too many majors from the US there.
For the record I did turn down Emirates and `i am so glad that I did. I actually have to work 11 days this month and I am pissed.
When you include your $330,000 a year salary why do you include 50% tax rate? Why do you pay so much tax?

Oblaaspop

22nd May 2011, 15:22

Actually Tommy boy it's about 30%! What rate do you pay? And does your salary even appear on the same graph?

new tomcat

22nd May 2011, 17:04

Thanks Olby but I paid 17% last year. I am sure that some of our FOs make more than some of your captains. I am pretty sure as well when we compare that ****e charter or low cost outfit you last flew for our FAs made more than you and worked less.
You might be making more than you ever hoped to make but look at the big picture. EK is a middle of the road airline, lot's of pilots make more than you and lot's of pilots make less than you. You just to happen to come from the bottom half and that is why EK looks so good to you which is understandable. But look around you won't see any BA, LH, AA, DL, AF or Qantas pilots hanging their hat at EK. Why would they take a pay cut and work more hours to live in the sand?
Have you considered the long term ramifications of working so much on the long haul operation? You have more money than you ever thought you would have made but it is only going to pay for one hell of a funeral at a young age.

EGGW

22nd May 2011, 18:34

Oblaaspop, has left this thread. One too many vinos before posting me thinks.

Guys, please get back on the thread re. Trainers pay, or this thread gets closed.

EGGW.

Willie Everlearn

22nd May 2011, 20:31

Varmint
You don't agree with Oblas point?

Listen to ATC in America. The majority of R/T is anything but 'professional' and compliant with the AIM, most is non-standard and by a long, long shot. Isn't that a valid point?

For the most part, no one in the simulated environment is an ATCO so for an instructor to take or make an issue out of any students ATC should be a simple matter of listening out for 'cutsey pie' lingo and correct it.

I don't think the UK CAA CAP413 is necessarily perfect, but it sure is one helluva good guide.

Just a thought.

Willie :ok:

thrash

23rd May 2011, 11:32

Firstly, EK doesn't train. It checks.
MM has seen to that.

Secondly, JAR licensed Airbus pilots are happy to be checked and kept legal by GP, a non-flying TRE in the CAE simulator here. Why not then non-flying TREs at EK, that can be paid a F/Os salary?

Thirdly, why is it that 'trainers' who are less productive than line pilots feel they should be paid more? Is more money the best reason to become a trainer or should they be genuinely interested in training?

Finally, training, like First Officers and CRM, are regulatory requirements that are costly and burdensome to the airline. The elimination of First Officers will enhance the bottom-line and negate the requirement for CRM further improving the company's financial performance. Not only that, once a Captain is deemed qualified there should be no further need for 'training' thereby eliminating the department altogether. The result would be a much cheaper 'mini-department' that could double as a petting-zoo for monkeys who could occupy the right hand seat for amusement on long flights and generally perform to a higher standard than some of the muppets currently being hired.