5's VS Black Tie

[Ranger5]

I post this on an aircrew forum, to get an answer accurately and to reduce faff.

Off to a a civvie summer ball type function this weekend, obviously its black tie, but my civvie black tie kit is... Atomised. So, to save a bit of dollar I was considering the option of wearing my 5's, but im not sure on the rules for such things?

I asked my pongo friend and he said, and I quote: "I wore my mess-dress to a few civvy functions, instead of black-tie. The birds drip clunge juice all over themselves."

What is the definitive craic?

R5

[diginagain]

While Army Mess Dress may attract the birds, No5s are only going to attract the attention of motorists with knackered cars. Rent a tux.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I asked my pongo friend and he said, and I quote: "I wore my mess-dress to a few civvy functions, instead of black-tie. The birds drip clunge juice all over themselves."

R5

Did he actually define "birds" as experience has shown that in almost every case the "bird" normally hanging from a soldiers arm looks like a hippo in heels and spandex with a real flair for dancing round a handbag whilst swilling from a pint glass :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Har har de har diginagain - the RAC man joke - how we laughed!

RAF mess kit is definitely very smart, Ranger5 and will make you stand out from the crowd of blokes in DJ's. Anyway I wouldn't take advice from anyone who calls a dinner jacket a tux :*

[Tourist]

"RAF mess kit is definitely very smart"

Yes yes, of course it is.
Ignore the nasty man.

[Two's in]

Did he actually define "birds" as experience has shown that in almost every case the "bird" normally hanging from a soldiers arm looks like a hippo in heels and spandex with a real flair for dancing round a handbag whilst swilling from a pint glass

My urge to defend squaddies overidden by your cruel, unusual, but horribly accurate description of the average squaddie "bird".

[Geehovah]

My take would be you are a serving military officer and can wear uniform at any time you chose. If you feel comfortble, go for it. I wore No1s at civilian weddings where formal dress was the order of the day and it was well received. I for one was always proud of the uniform I wore.

[Pontius Navigator]

and medals.

You may find some in DJs are wearing theirs. They shouldn't of course, only in tails.

[BEagle]

The policy regarding the wearing of miniatures with evening dress will normally be stated on the invitation stiffy, PN.

As regards the wearing of No. 5s:

AP1358 Chap 10:

Civilian Functions
1010. At civilian and other functions, when the order of dress is not specified and it is known that more than one RAF officer will be attending in uniform, the senior RAF officer is to decide on the dress to be worn and inform the other RAF officers attending of his decision.

So if it's just you who is attending from the RAF, then go for it Ranger5. Particularly if you've got some rattly, clanky hardware to wear! But check whether other RAF mates are attending first.

Do remember that you might get cornered by some old "When I was in...." bores; however, the ladies will undoubtedly become rather moist, sir. Ooh yes, they will - suits you sir!

Why not wear a Help for Heroes cummerbund https://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/products/Cummerbund.html and tap anyone who asks what it is for a donation....:ok:

[Ranger5]

AP1358 Chap 10:

Civilian Functions
1010. At civilian and other functions, when the order of dress is not specified and it is known that more than one RAF officer will be attending in uniform, the senior RAF officer is to decide on the dress to be worn and inform the other RAF officers attending of his decision.

This is extremely useful, if only I knew how to navigate through the terrible JSP/AP archive on the defence intranet, maybe then I could also find the regulations that surround Holding Officers, and prove i'm being mistreated!

Couple of my fellow holding chums have said they wore 5's to a university ball and that turned out quite well for them despite being a rather grotty affair!

[SirToppamHat]

Go for No 5s if it works for you. I wouldn't bother renting DJ, they cost peanuts at M&S, mix and match sizes and machine washable too.

STH

[teeteringhead]

For some strange reason Ranger5, AP1358 is available on the internet.

For example here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/9645FADA_EE31_9299_8E899FC7FA734D14.pdf)

[ShyTorque]

I was wearing my No 5 in a hotel when I called in to pick up my parents who were attending a formal function as my guests.

I got angrily accosted by some old duffer who reckoned I was there to hold open the door and carry his luggage to his room. :p

[Really annoyed]

This is extremely useful, if only I knew how to navigate through the terrible JSP/AP archive on the defence intranet, maybe then I could also find the regulations that surround Holding Officers, and prove i'm being mistreated!Why bother learning some saddo here on prune will be able to find the information you are after in a heartbeat............................too late see the post 2 above.

[Ranger5]

Yes yes, I see its on the internet now, but I still wouldn't have known which AP to look for. Don't tell me how to find that, I will "learn"

Cheers for responses, the one line in AP1358 doesn't give much detail, and there are over a thousand people going to this event, so finding another officer to see what he/she is wearing, will be a bit A level.

[Whenurhappy]

Wear your No 5s - if they fit!

Seriously, there is nothing worse than seeing, say, a slightly portly FltLt bulging out ofi a very tight Mess Kit that was 'tailored' when said chap was a whippet of an APO. These guys look like Northern pub singers!

If you have tropical Mess Kit (No 8) - its a lot more comfortable than No 5s and rather smart, too. However, expect to be asked for ice creams! Deffo wear your medals. Consider it part of a pubic IO campaign.

[Al Murdoch]

Its all a bit naff though isn't it?
When I was in, I wore my mess undress to a few civvy functions, but looking back I cringe a little bit at the thought.
That's not to say I wasn't proud of what I did for a living... Just that it sort of says "look at me, I need to wear this to make me interesting".
Up to you of course, but personally I think a smart dinner suit with a black waistcoat and a properly tied bow tie looks a lot smarter. Especially if you have a fat bottom like me.

[Tankertrashnav]

If you have tropical Mess Kit (No 8) - its a lot more comfortable than No 5s and rather smart, too.


Just checked out a piccy of Mrs TTN (as she was to become) and self at a ball at Kai Tak in 68, and have to concede I looked the business in No 8.

Then I looked in the mirror - depressing :(

[MATELO]

"I wore my mess-dress to a few civvy functions, instead of black-tie. The birds drip clunge juice all over themselves."


Shame the "R5" didnt stand for "Red 5" otherwise that statement would be true.

[brit bus driver]

a hippo in heels and spandex with a real flair for dancing round a handbag whilst swilling from a pint glass

You say that like it's a bad thing......:eek::}

[Melchett01]

a hippo in heels and spandex with a real flair for dancing round a handbag whilst swilling from a pint glass

You say that like it's a bad thing......

Only if it's the bride or her mother!

[Sinker]

In principle, mess dress should only be worn to non-military events when the equivalent civilian dress is tails. There aren't that many of those, are there? But mark the principle. If it really is a splendid occasion, you might consider mess dress. But what if it's something like the annual tennis club dance? Wayne and Darren may well decide that black tie is a good idea, but might not mess dress be rather OTT? As for medals with black tie, only on very heavily militarily influenced occasions, I think.

But what do I know? I'm an old fart and haven't even worn black tie for about three decades.

[BEagle]

In principle, mess dress should only be worn to non-military events when the equivalent civilian dress is tails.

Surely that would only be true of white-tie civilian functions? The mess dress equivalent being No 5A with the exceptionally uncomfortable white waistcoat, stiff-fronted shirt and white tie?

So glad that I rarely need to wear a tie of any description these days! The last time I attended a black tie with miniatures event, someone tried to tell me that I shouldn't have worn the premier tanker squadron's red-and-black tie. I suspect my response included curt reference to fornication and travel!

[Wander00]

Blimey, my memory must be getting dim - I thought that we used to wear a black (single ended!) bow tie with a stiff shirt and wing collar - but it is light years in the past

[BEagle]

We did - but it's now white, I gather.

[Wander00]

That will be progress then - cost saving measure (no black dye!).

I'll get my coat

[BEagle]

Unfortunately Officers' greatcoats stopped being issued in around 1970.....

My issue blue gaberdine flasher's raincoat thing, which was about as comfortable as tarpaulin and which weighed a ton, was stolen by some low-life at RAFC in 1973 - somehow I managed the next 30 years without needing to replace it.....:\

[The Oberon]

One of lifes great misteries Beagle, I always wondered who lost his raincoat in the first place and started the theiving chain.

[Wander00]

People kept turning proper greatcoats into "British Warm"s. Awful things.

[Red Line Entry]

What's the difference between a greatcoat and a British Warm?

(...sounds like the cue for a joke...)

[Tankertrashnav]

Wander00 - couldn't agree more. The RAF just didn't "get" British warms and when there was a fad for turning greatcoats into British warms in the 70's I foolishly had mine done - what an absolute waste of a perfectly good greatcoat. Also the RAF insisted that the rank be retained on the epaulettes - totally missing the point that they should be able to be worn in civvies or uniform. I think I wore mine twice. Years later (by now a civilian) I acquired a proper army British warm which I wore for years until it mysteriously started to shrink in the wardrobe :(

Liked the "flasher's" gaberdine raincoat though. Proper raincoat that was :ok:

[soprano54]

Go in your No5's...............then at least you won't look out of place when you're asked to dish out the 'Choc Ices' in the interval!:ok:

[Whenurhappy]

About 20 years ago I picked up a Greatcoat and a set of RE City No 5s from a grizzled old FltLt flt eng who retired from Mt Wise. Until last year have probably only worn the coat 2-3 times a year, but its worth it. We get very, very cold winters where I am now and I love going into our compound, collar turned up, segs precariously clicking on the ice and a dusting of snow on my SD hat. A german civilian wryly commented that 'we used to have coats like that, but we wore them with, err, jack boots'.

All the more reason to proudly wear an RAF Great coat just to remind the locals who prevailed in WWII!

[Sloppy Link]

Coat, British Warm (Officers). Private purchase from approved tailors, for use in barracks. Greatcoat (Officers Pattern) for use on formal parades and in the field. Major difference between the two, leather instead of Regimental buttons, Greatcoat has a belt at the rear and a British Warm is lined. No rank on British Warm. Greatcoat has a 2" collar that can be turned up against the weather and the lapels can be buttoned up to the chin. British Warm is made from cashmere, Greatcoat is made from heavy wool serge. Converted greatcoats are just that, a converted greatcoat and they look like it. A British Warm is a British Warm.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Available from;

British Warm (http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/british-warm/)

[Willard Whyte]

Very dapper.

Now, where does one obtain a squadron cravat?

[Chicken Leg]

Are you serious? RAF uniforms across the board are not known for their style and you're going to where one In public out of choice??!!

Then again, if you realised how naff it looked, you wouldn't really fit into the RAF......... So go ahead, wear it!

[Tankertrashnav]

Make your mind up chicken leg - should he where it or wear it?

[Pontius Navigator]

Actually I had a job where a British Warm was perfect. We would fly to Germany Civair in the depths of winter and wore it as a civilian overcoat. We would then spend hours standing out on freezing cold dispersals with the BW as uniform and Canadian army overboots to keep the tozzies warm.

The only thing we never cracked was the gloves - British Army Cold, wet. True to name they were both cold and wet.

[le.gentleman]

The British Warm is indeed a very useful overcoat! I can definitely agree that it is an ideal overcoat for colder temperatures. With regard to its tradition, it should always be made of a heavy (at least 34 oz per yard) Melton cloth and never of cashmere.

In case you want a new one you will most likely have to consult a tailor or provider of military apparel. However, every once in a while you will find a fantastic, original British Warm in London's top notch second hand stores.

[Chicken Leg]

Make your mind up chicken leg - should he where it or wear it?

Darn it! I hate it when my witty and cutting remarks are trashed by someone with too much eye for detail!

I blame that touch screen pad I was using to make said witty and cutting remark!

[Union Jack]

With regard to its tradition, it should always be made of a heavy (at least 34 oz per yard) Melton cloth and never of cashmere.

Le Gentleman

You "gents" had better get together, observing the following quotation from the link to the "Gentleman's Gazette" referred to at # 35

"Although nowadays you can sometimes find British Warm overcoats made of cashmere or cavalry twill, you should always try to opt for the heavy Melton fabric"

Jack

PS £695 for off the peg?! Mine cost £46 tailormade from G&H and is still going strong :ok:

PPS No, I can't believe that I looked up the link either:uhoh:

[Ascot 5999]

Then of course there is this old chestnut: The No 5 used to have a stiff white dickie as an alternative to the soft "dimple" shirt. Rumour has it that a Regt officer (probably on royal guard duty), was asked to dine with the royal family. The D of E, in full royal dining fig, looked at him wearing his soft shirt and said, "I thought you RAF chaps wore a stiff fronted shirt?" The rattled officer replied, "We do Sir, but only on special occasions!"

D of E's response not recorded!

Ascot

[London Eye]

Ascot,

Dear old Humphrey Lyttelton would have called you for repetition given the number of times that this particular (and I dearly hope, true) story has appeared on these boards!

[BEagle]

I gather that it was one of Prince Charles' favourite tales!

[Ascot 5999]

I know that! I was just wondering if someone would supply a name! F.....Y perhaps? (Humph & Prince Charles a good start though).

[Wensleydale]

I gather that it was one of Prince Charles' favourite tales!

No doubt told while wearing his Fox Hat.

[Ascot 5999]

Only if he was at Cranwell!!

[Rossian]

...OK what did you finally decide?

Don't keep us all in suspense like the chap who asked about tackling an invitation from a local bigwig, who, after a very brief sitrep disappeared for ever. Ungrateful SOB.

The Ancient Mariner