Welshpool flying school to close by April

[Cruise Alt]

Having arrived at Pool aviation for work this morning I was greeted by the news that the school is to close by April at Welshpool airport. This is because of a legal ruling (I don't know the exact details) that the owner of airfield is able to cut short the lease and the tennant has to be off the premises by April 15. This dispute has apparently been going on for some time. This has nothing to do with the company having financial difficulties - in fact they are doing pretty well. The school owner is now looking at various sites where he can re-establish a flying school.

Unfortunately it does mean that ppl courses will have to be completed by April. There is some good news however for anyone hour building. Continuing the business of offering cheap flying training by maximising the use of the aircraft as the existing students complete courses, cheap hour building will be available. If you are interested you should call the school 01938 555062.

No one will lose their money and if you are concerned please call.

I hope this will answer any questions and stop all the nasty rumours that spread when a school closes.

As for me - does anyone need a QFI for the summer :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

See similar thread over on Private Flying: <a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=53&t=001124&p=2" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=53&t=001124&p=2</a>

Cruise Alt - sorry that your job is going. I spent a very happy 1999 teaching at Welshpool. It was for over 10 years a very successful and spectacularly cheap school and club. I am very saddened to see it go. I last flew from there at Christmas. I finished off my PPL there and started my professional career there. I will miss the luxury of a cheap flying club 1 mile from my home town. Best of luck to Adam in maintenance - I hope you find work asap.

Whilst I understand that Bob (the winner of the court case and farmer who owns the airfield ground) seeks to develop the airfield I cannot help but worry that the place will no longer have a flying school or club. Welshpool is just about the only GA airfield to have been newly built and operated in the last 20 years. The fact that it was a success - putting out a PPL a week on average in 1999 - makes its loss only more perplexing.

Its a shame to see a school with a good record, a healthy order book and a bright future being forced to close.

I only hope that the future of Welshpool airport is as bright as its first 11 years have been. I wish Bob the best of luck with the task.

WWW

[Atlanta]

Weasles,

It would appear that a damn good school is being forced to close for no fault of its own.

One can only hope that the proprietors will not be discouraged by this and will soon find a new home from which to operate; and do so before too long and without too much cost being involved in setting up all over again.

I'm sure I express the sentiments of the whole wannabe community in wishing them well. Perhaps you would pass on to them our best wishes and say that we shall all be watching the adverts to see when they start up again.

I haven't decided where I am going to do my training. I am looking simultaneously at places both in the U.K. and abroad. Certainly, I want to do my IR in the U.K. Welshpool (or its successor establishment) is definitely on my U.K. shortlist.

Best regards,

[boss man]

Although it’s a shame to see a school close, in this case I feel its for the best, Pool av have been involved in several court cases in recent years including a upheld case of wrongful dismissal on health and safety grounds (an instructor who refused to fly in bad weather).

If you need any convincing look up the number of incidents at the field, I’ve lost count of the number of pilots I have heard say “I used to fly at Welshpool”

Broomstick: Flight training is like any thing else in life you get what you pay for cheap and flight training don’t always go together.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm, actually if you look at the number of incidents per movements you find that Welshpool has a lower rate than Halfpenny Green, Shobdon and Sleap. People forget that although the place is small and new it was extremely busy.

It is true that one employee took them to court for wrongful dismissal but that ain't bad given they must have hired at least 60 instructors over the years. Pool aviation started many peoples flying careers and they were the cheapest in the land. They also gave UK GA a bi-annual Air Race and Aerobatics competition. Whilst their owner might not win any personality awards he paid me on time and treated me fairly when I dropped the occassional testicle.

One can only hope that UK General Aviation has not effectively lost yet another little airfield.

WWW

[Whirlybird]

I'm a local who..er..used to fly to Welshpool! I guess what both WWW AND boss man are saying is true, or has some truth in it anyway. There are two sides to every story, and I moved to Sleap for good reasons, not just an idle whim. At Sleap I met very many ex Welshpool flyers, and a few instructors, and a number said they would go back to Welshpool if and when the management changed. Got to be reasons for that, don't you think? On the other hand, many people have learned to fly cheaply there over the years, and were happy with it. So don't jump to conclusions if you don't know all the issues and people involved here, and bear in mind a lot of people are being very careful right now as they're wary of being sued or similar.

However, what I've heard (again, only hearsay) is that the airfield owner wants to extend the runway to make the airfield available for business traffic - the original intention of Mid-Wales Airport - AND have GA there too. So if this is the case, it may be closed for a while, but not for ever. And it may eventually provide the complete service to the people of Mid-Wales and elsewhere, that as I understand it was always intended.

[Cruise Alt]

There are rumours about the continued use of the airfield but the licence will going with the school. Due to cables in the surrounding area erected since the original licence granting it is unlikely a new one will be issued and therefore no training flights.

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: Cruise Alt ]

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: Cruise Alt ]</p>

[flyingwelshman]

Any ideas where the flying school may relocate to????

If this goes there are no flying schools in mid wales!

FW

[Impressive Wingspan]

WWW I think what boss man is driving at with his cheap and flight training don’t go together is that the instructors are not up to scratch. Fighting talk where I come from (however I did move house last week!).. .There are reasons various why the owner of Pool Aviation can offer a PPL at that price. I mean lets face it what’s the difference in terms of running costs of a Tomahawk which is charged out at 75 squid by an operator in Welshpool or 100+ in say, Liverpool (not landing fee's). The answer is the latter will be putting more per hour in his back pocket. In fact you could go a little bit further than that (as much as it pains me to say this) the illustrious owner of Pool is doing a service to the young lads who have just got their first instructing job. Getting punters in and flying all the aircraft to the max, as I’m sure WW Welshperson will testify himself certainly did the hours in his logbook no harm.. .If you are having a dig at instructors past you are quite incorrect to do so. I worked for Pool Aviation a few years ago now, and although i don't care much for the owner, all the instructors give an excellent standard of training for the time they are given with the student. As for the social life involved with Welshpool, well it was jolly good fun.. .As for the bit about the number of incidents, like WWW said it was not uncommon to be in the circuit with 5 or 6 other aircraft, 8 hrs + a day in summer 7 days a week, so get your calculator out and you’ll probably find the incident rate is quite low. . .Finally the reason people "used to fly at Welshpool" was that many people who train there live in a different part of the country. They have seen that the course is cheap, gone as a residential stude for 4 weeks and then gone home, finding a club closer to home when they have got a licence. I'm sure you will agree not that unreasonable. Yes granted he did try and get instructors to fly in weather which was less than ideal but the chaps who i worked with just stood their ground when they thought it was crap (usually). And although there is no excuse for pressurising the instructors into flying, the reason was that he needed to keep aircraft in the air so he could offer a cheap course. I am interested Boss Man, did you learn to fly at Welshpool? Because if you did,and you are from London that = I know who you are,and why you would post the way you did!!!

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: Impressive Wingspan ]</p>

[Whirlybird]

Impressive Wingspan,

You say: "although there is no excuse for pressurising the instructors into flying, the reason was that he needed to keep aircraft in the air so he could offer a cheap course."

So do you think it's OK to pressurise instructors into flying when the weather is..how shall we put it..inappropriate, in order to keep aircraft flying so that you can keep down your prices and make more money?

[Daifly]

I'm sorry for the people who've lost, or are losing, their jobs over this - that's not a nice position to be in at any time. And I don't feel that this had got anything to do with the standard of instructing or the state of the aircraft.. . . .WWW - you and I have been mates for a long time and I meant what I said in my e-mail, this is not the end for GA flying at Welshpool.. . . .The owner, Bob Jones, built the airfield from a grass strip. HE got all the funding to put down the tarmac strip, HE got the funding for the hangarage, HE got the funding for the additional hardstandings and taxiways, HE is the one who is seeking to develop the airport further. HE is the chap who rode his bike 15 miles each way to Sleap when he was 17 to learn to fly.. . . .Although developing the place for business traffic which, as Whirly says, was the main aim of the place is a priority - and it's fair to say that the local companies with aircraft have a far greater financial input into the local area than the flying school does, relatively (pointing out a fact, not trying to justify the development as I accept that there is a direct investment into the local economy through having students stay for three weeks) - but why would that business development then proclude the use of the place by a flying school and GA traffic? . . . .Cruise Alt - hiThe licencing aspect? I can't recall any new power lines being erected or moved in the past 11 years since the place was first granted a licence. The lines that cross short final for 22 have been there since before the airport and in case do not interfere with the TODA's or ASDA's. CAP168 Licencing of Aerodromes (http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/publications/CAP_168_the_licensing_of_aerodromes.pdf) covers all aspects within the airfield boundary and everything within the safety distances. My understanding (as these rules have not changed in 10 years) is that the power lines would not pose a problem. In any case, resiting them would fall into a plan that covers the airport anyway. So I wouldn't go scaremongering too much regarding the power cables.

I realise that with the prices that many trainees were from all over the country, and yes, that did bring much needed money into the community both directly and indirectly. However, I would argue that the 'club' atmosphere that was certainly there in the first five years has dropped off considerably since.

Yes, it's bad for the wannabees (in the short term), and maybe I'm arguing this in the wrong forum, but in the long term, this is the correct decision for General Aviation in Wales.

[Impressive Wingspan]

Whirlybird, . .No it's not on to pressurise instructors into flying just to keep the aircraft flying so the course price can come down. I myself probably put my job on the line numerous times by not flying when i thought the student would not gain anything due to the weather.. .This was the case with most of the instructors who worked at Pool Aviation at the same time as me. I was trying to look at it from his point of view though, like i said the owner isn't on my Christmas card list. There are alot of students I know satisfied with the training, and had an enjoyable time whilst getting a licence, with the most important fact for most of the people who don't drive a blue 355 F1, and that is it's cheap!

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: Impressive Wingspan ]</p>

[Pipes]

How wonderful to see British Justice done ....eventually.

To those who will lose their jobs, (as Daifly says) - my sympathy, but perhaps they will spare a thought for those vast numbers of ex Pool staff (particularly instructors), over the last 10 years, who through no fault of their own (usually on issues of safety) also found themselves unemployed !!

As for the operators Pool...... what goes around comes around!!!

Daiflys comments are spot on….. I look forward to seeing Welshpool Airfield move forward, and rapidly put these unfortunate circumstances behind it..... and to B J Aviation congratulations, all very best wishes for any future plans, it's been a long time coming - but as I said at the beginning, British Justice finally won through!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Daifly - you are of course quite correct in your history summation. I wish Bob EVERY success, it would suit me just fine if someone want me to fly a Gulfstream out of my hometown <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I do remember back in 1991 when everybody laughed at the idea of trying to build a flying school in the middle of a valley in the middle of nowhere. I applaud Tony for building what he did.

I just can't see what GA will remain other than the privately owned aircraft. I will miss the ability to hire a Piper cheaply when at home. However you are quite right to say that the point of the airport was to support local business.

People knock Welshpool if they had a bad experience there. Just as people who paid £7,000 to CABAIR for their PPL complain if they had a bad experience. After Steve Moles fatal accident I felt that the pressure to fly was very much reduced. At the end of the day there is ALWAYS pressure to fly in any commercial flying environment. If it says Commercial on your pilots license then its part of the job to resist those pressures. No matter if its at Welshpool in a PA38 or at Stansted in a B737.

Good luck Bob,

WWW

ps Impressive Wingspan - who are you?

[Daifly]

Yep, but Elly, what makes you think that there won't be a flying school there offering cheap flying - it's not going to be Tony's rates, but there's nothing to stop another school moving in, or starting up is there...?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm I suppose so. I hope that does happen. But surely Bob will want the hangar space for whatever new business a/c he can get there plus half a million helicopters <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

For my own selfish reasons I would like to see someone come in who wants to develop more of a 'club' atmosphere. As you and I both know its a great location and the early days of a decent club atmosphere died a portakabin death many years ago.

Maybe if TB is happy to lease aircraft to Welshpool someone could come in quite easily and start up a school/club. Maybe.

Mind you if Bob does make a success of it and you come in to be the Welshpool Ops Manager I will definitely be applying for that Gulfstream job <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

WWW

[Daifly]

You can park a C152 under the wing of a Gulfstream IV...

Like I said, both ends of the GA scale, with a club atmosphere!

[Impressive Wingspan]

Now son what have you been told about chasing Hawks down valleys!. .Good luck to Bob in the development of Welshpool!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hey I only did that a couple of times... Now in a G4 I could give them a real run for their money... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

WWW

[phantom01]

Firstly my sympathy for any one who might be losing their job’s Welshpool, I learnt to fly there, and the instruction I recived was first rate. However I after having a couple of run-ins with the owner and listing to what the instructors had to say about him, I came to the conclusion that this was not the sort of person who should be running a flying school.

[SkyGuy]

Having been an instructor for Tony i think this is a great day for GA. How someone can compare flying a tomohawk with no airways equip out of an airfield surrounded by high ground to flying in an airline enviroment is stupid and perhaps is the CFI at Welshpool.

[boss man]

Impressive Wingspan I live on the south cost I’ve just retired here and for your information I learnt to fly at the oldest flying school in the world. I am in no way knocking any past or present instructor. I have spoken to many of them over the years the story’s they have told particularly about the use of the WPL sent chills down my spine.

Wee Weasley Welshman said the pressure to fly reduced after the fatal accident well Impressive Wingspan three people had to die for that to happen. Those who occupy a glasshouse in the south predicted deaths at CV many years ago.

Impressive Wingspan you say you and other instructors you worked with were put under pressure to fly, you had a duty to report that fact to the correct authorities and ensure action was taken. I hope if you are still flying commercially you put your duty as a pilot before profit cheap flying or even your gainful employment.

[Daifly]

Bossman - the glasshouse have a lot to answer for though...

I am aware of seven separate occasions where people, ranging from office staff to instructors, who have made reports to the CAA regarding events that occurred there; with no attempted prosecutions.

The previous MP, Alex Carlile, had a long correspondence with the then Chairman of the CAA over what was going on there, following their refusal to prosecute.

Mr Carlile, I should remind those of you who don't know, was, and is, a top civil law barrister...

(Edited for missing word)

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: Daifly ]</p>

[Impressive Wingspan]

Yes Bossman I am still flying commercially but fortunately the company I work for has a lucrative government contract, so profit is not really a consideration, not that I would ever consider breaking the limits placed on us. Nor did I break the limits as an instructor at Welshpool, or any others I worked with. I think that your use of the phrase “sent chills down my spine“ is a bit of an overkill really. I did a lot of hours at Welshpool and the only two aircraft who’s pilots put a chill down my spine where two who hadn’t visited the field before. Also you havn’t really explained why you think cheap and quality don’t go together, if you are saying it’s not the instructors you are getting at then what are you getting at. Look I’m not sticking up for Pool or it’s owner, but the place has been running and obviously making enough for the owner to be earning a wage and to be smoking around in a Baron.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you didn't work there you have no business specualting about working conditions. I did and they were fine.

A fine school just bit the dust. I hope something approaching its equal rapidly fills its place.

WWW

[Cruise Alt]

Lots of experts on Welshpool on the Forum. I have worked here for 3 months. Before that I trained with the RAF in a UAS, Oxford, and completed my FIC at White Waltham. I then stared instructing at European Flyers before moving to Welshpool. Out of the instructors I work with no one will fly when the conditions are not safe. Incidentally for those who seem to think that the instructors are inexperienced I am the greenest with only 600 hours, the others have 4 figure logbooks. Yes there is pressure from the management to fly - it is a commercial job! There is not however as much management pressure to fly as I witnessed at Oxford, or was subjected to at EF. Here the instructors decision is respected - I have never had my job threatened for not flying. I cannot say what happened in the past, only my experience of the present. I am also not commenting on any character clashes people seem to have had - only how I view the quality of the flying training. And that is better than the 3 clubs I have flown with previously. There is more continuity and personal attention than I have seen at other schools.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Irespective of whether the owner of the school is on anyone`s Christmas card list.The school was putting out 45 hr PPL courses for £3000 and appeared to be making money.So I think it is rather sad that they are going.......still there are plenty of other schools pushing out 45 hr PPL courses....unfortunately not at that price. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Impressive Wingspan]

Absolutely Delta Wun Wun, it is an excellent price and makes it more affordable to many young lads (or old even) wanting to try and get a start in aviation without having to spend four weeks in Florida. I would certainly train at Welshpool myself if i had to go through it all again (perish the thought). Shouldn't all wannabes on this forum be wanting owners to shave the odd thousand here and there off the cost of courses???

[phantom01]

There are many reasons why Pool Ave could offer training so cheaply and a lot of them are unique to Welshpool:. .Exclusive use of entire airfield and hangers. .Own maintenance facilities. .Direct purchase of fuel (no middle man). .Well-maintained put cheap aircraft purchased mainly in the states with high hours and some with damaged history most with minimum equipment.. .I understand very favourable rent and business rates agreements.. .Other source of income, E.g. sale of fuel Inc jet A1, landing fees, maintenance, hangerage ext. . .There is no reason why some one else couldn’t do the same thing; Mr. B Jones would be in a better position because he’s the landlord.. .I think the point most are trying to make is that the current owner is/was an absolute tyrant more suit to gorilla warfare than GA.. . <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[PA38]

Pete Marsden who works at Welshpool taught me to fly before his Welshpool days, and he was the most profesional and rule book following person you could ever hope to meet, he would NEVER risk anything or anyone.. .On top of that he is also a very nice guy and I hope he finds a new source of income very soon.. Good luck Pete <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[lord melchett]

How come they always seemed to be bending those Tomahawks though?

[Flash Heart]

I'm sad to hear that Pool aviation is being forced to relocate, it offered a good affordable service to GA. If you do the maths I think you'll find that their accident record is good.. . As for further development bear in mind that welshpool airport is built on a flood plain, a local farmer was refused permission to build a porta-loo on his camp site near by, let alone expanding an airport!

[Daifly]

Indeed Flash, the airport is a on floodplain - every year that is very, very obvious... But the longest the runway has been underwater is four days - Luton's closed for snow more times than that through one winter!!

And anyway, this is a quote from the Government's current planning guidelines:

"The new planning guidance includes a clear statement that building in the functional flood plains used to hold excess water in times of flood should be wholly exceptional - and limited to essential infrastructure."

So, let's examine the facts, essential infrastructure...

An airport? Yes.

A portaloo? No.

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Let's make the most of it before the Government introduce a countrywide ban on further airport development without a public enquiry (LHR T5) for each case.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I actually do not think planning permission will be a problem. Apart from half a dozen malcontents who nearly all moved to the area after flying started at EGCW the local populace support ANYTHING that supplies jobs. You could probably get the local council to grant a nuclear waste dump approval if you could show it would create half a dozen 'local' jobs for 'local' people. Shades of Royston Vasey abound <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

It would be nice to finally see that ATC Tower in use...

WWW

[Daifly]

Oh God, don't give them ideas WWW!!

Perhaps you could take on a "Homer Simpson" role from the tower overseeing the Welshpool Thermonuclear Reprosessing Plant"?

:)