Spanair is about to close

[NEWYEAR]

The former owners of Spaniar, the airline SAS (Scandinavian Airlines Systems), given by certain bankruptcy of the Catalan company and are covering their backs to the markets. SAS´s new president, Rick Gustafson, has initiated a series of meetings with analysts to prepare their shareholders and investors to the fall of Spanair. Scandinavians want to protect their action before the close of events.

In a meeting with investors held on Tuesday, Gustafson said that SAS provides all possible scenarios regarding its former subsidiary. Among them, more likely, according to his predictions, is that Spanair will not pay the 200 million still owed by the airline's fall Catalan.

Gustafson did not wait for questions from analysts who attended the presentation of the results of first quarter loss of SAS-reduced 48% to 41 million, and proactively decided to explain what the impact would cause maximum Spanair its outcome. The implosion of the airline Catalan generate minimal damage thanks to writting down was made of this risk, the analysts explained.

Forewarned

Thanks to this operation accounts, SAS Spanair exposure would be limited to between 22 and 33 million euros (200 to 300 million SEK). "If such an event will occur," said the president of SAS to reassure financial analysts, our security guarantee that would achieve the objectives of this year with a good margin. "

As its subsidiary, SAS owns 11% of Spanair, "the numbers do not come with the Scandinavian company. After breaking the sale negotiations with Lufthansa and the announcement of the government ordered the abandonment of the shareholders of SAS Scandinavian, northern European airline depends on itself to secure its future.

In this environment, its new chief executive does not want to scare stock. According to industry sources, Gustafson is putting the band before the wound on its industrial participation in Spanair. Scandinavians sit on the board of directors of the Catalan and as knowledgeable about the situation first hand would take containment measures in all areas, being the main financial headache remedy.

A million a day

Gustafson's concerns are based on a number: one million euros a day. This is the rate at which losses grow Spanair. Estimates calculated in the sector and sent the Catalan government, the airline chaired by Ferran Soriano would have lost in the first quarter, with fuel cheaper than now, 50 to 70 million.

On the other hand, the cost per seat-mile would be offered the highest in the industry with a projection of 0.6 euros, almost double the average. Spanair would be paying too much more expensive fuel than its competitors because of the impossibility of recruiting coverage with banks to help cushion the kerosene bill. Spanair had hired $ 105 per barrel fuel commitments are estimated to have accessed the Digital Economy.


Just for information, another Airline is going to close...:(

[rareair]

Whilst I found your post extremely difficult to read (I'm guessing English isn't your first language) the interim report to investors SAS Group Interim Report January-March 2011 | Cision Wire (http://www.cisionwire.com/sas/r/sas-group-interim-report-january-march-2011,c9119775) hardly says Spanair's failure is imminent. It's more about the financial situation of SAS.

From the press release

Stable financial position
It is also satisfying to be able to state that our financial position is stable. This is exemplified by the new bond loan that was issued in March 2011. At the end of March, our financial preparedness was SEK 11.9 billion, which is satisfactory and provides us, for example, with the scope to implement fleet renewal, which we have now begun. SAS has a remaining exposure in Spanair. In the event of Spanair going bankrupt, SAS’s total exposure is SEK 1.8 billion, but with a limited negative liquidity effect of MSEK 200-300. If such an event were to occur, this means that we would still meet our financial preparedness target with a good margin.

My interpretation:

1) We've just issued some new bonds and have loads of cash available to us - 11.9 Billion Swedish Krone to be exact. And we're going to begin renewing our fleet (hey Allegiant you want our last 26 MD-80s? one careful owner and all that...)

2) We still have a bit of liability if Spanair goes belly up but we've taken steps to limit this to 300 million SEK so about 2.5% of our total cash pile. DON'T WORRY - EVERYTHING'S FINE AT SAS

[CentreFix25]

DON'T WORRY - EVERYTHING'S FINE AT SAS
I think the posting was refering to Spanair.

[Airbrake]

If Spanair goes bust who will the Spanish Controllers have to vector infront of us on approach:rolleyes:?

[jpthomas72]

Does that mean BA (being married to IB now) for once score a victory over LH (which has Spanair within Star) ? Amazing. Sure, considering FR and EZY fly to every village in Spain from pretty much every corner of Europe, not a surprise. JK completely disqualified themselves when managing to crash their DC-9 (ok, it was a MD-82, but similar old design).
Spanair Flight 5022 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair_Flight_5022)
We had a similar event at LUX, also with shocking neglect on the side of maintenance, management and crew, and many people still mistrust Luxair. New management had to rebuild Luxair from scratch, which Spanair hasn't done. So they would deserve to disappear into history. I hope LH has learnt the lesson and doesn't even think about starting a 'Lufthansa Espania' or 'Spanishwings'. Is LH codeshare a Kiss Of Death these days ? :O Surely considering those airline's independence.

[JSCL]

Remember that SAS only own 20% of the company - so SAS' position doesn't have too much of an impact like it could have. It can sell the it's stakehold if it has issues, but I can't see too much reflection on Spanair really..?

[AROUNDGO]

While I am not flying for Spanair, I see on the flight I operate every day the huge impact that Spanish ATC has on my airline. In term of fuel, delays, sometimes causing change of crew or cancellation, the impact must be extremely heavy on an airline already in financial difficulty.
Thanks again to the Spanish ATC who contributed largely to this.

[cesare.caldi]

Spanair for catalan people are considerd as a national airline. The latest adv of Spanair is based on national spirits, proud of be catalan, slogan is "We belive in Barcelona" (in catalan language). This adv is everywhere in Barcelona city and airport.
For this national spirit the catalan government don't leave Spanair to close, probably also using illegal state aid.

[Capetonian]

I thought Vueling was the 'Catalan' airline. Spanair's base is Palma de Mallorca, which although the offical language is Catalan (or is it officially Mallorquin?), is not quite the same.

[cesare.caldi]

Vueling is the first airline of BCN, but is a sister of Iberia and Iberia is not loved in catalunya because is a Madrid based carrier and has close all flight from BCN.

[Cyrano]

I thought Vueling was the 'Catalan' airline. Spanair's base is Palma de Mallorca, which although the offical language is Catalan (or is it officially Mallorquin?), is not quite the same.

IIRC Spanair relocated its HQ and registered office from Palma to Barcelona in 2009, and figuratively speaking wrapped itself pretty tightly in the Catalan flag.

[rareair]

Sorry for repeating my question:

The thread title is "Spanair is about to close"

Yet all I can find is an SAS press release saying that IF Spanair fails then it won't damage SAS. Can anyone actually substantiate Spanair's imminent demise?

[NEWYEAR]

Dear rareair,

"Spaniar is about to close" is my headline, that´s all.

According to SAS, Spanair is bankrupt
The new president of the Scandinavian Airline wants the market begins to assume the bankruptcy of the Catalan Company to protect its titles from the punishment of the shareholders. Spanair may be losing a million euros a day.

On the other hand, Spanair continues to pay salaries and suppliers thanks to the Generalitat of Catalonia & Banks, in other words, is the Catalan Government which prefers to cut the money in Health and Education in order to benefit Spanair which is not self-financing.

Health and Education in Catalonia is experiencing many financial cutbacks due to economic crisis. However, the Government would rather spend the money of citizens in Spanair which has a lot of problems.

In my opinion, Spanair is about to close, that´s my headline, unless they find investors ready to waste its money.

I´m sorry for the employees & citizens

B.R & Thanks.

[IB4138]

NEWYEAR

Your thread title and posts are highly irresponsible.

If all you have to base your comments on are that SAS article, which you have put your own twist on, then would you mind desisting and even better remove the thread altogether.

Your ramblings could be taken the wrong way and there are peoples jobs and livelihoods at stake.

[racedo]

IB

What poster is showing is that the airline and a continuing major shareholder in Spanair is giving a clear indication that its investment is now worthless and it expects to lose money as a result of airline imploding.

It isn't nice to see this BUT do people wish to bury their head in the sand and say "How did this happen" rather than be aware that future may be imperilled.

It also has to raise questions to the regulator of Spanair regarding its operations with questions to its management.

[NEWYEAR]

This is a forum to debate and discuss aviation issues.

If the Moderators of this forum think they should delete my post and my opinion, they can do it. I will not delete my post because some fellow members do not like to read the truth, my deductions and opinions which are shared by many aviation professionals. Spanair is about to close if it can not find investors who squander their money, in my opinion.

[pwalhx]

What the report says is should, and they consider it a likely possibilty, the airline fails the effect on SAS has been mitigated. They do not say the airline is going to close.

What the OP objects to is the subsidies paid to the airline instead of it being spent on health care et al.

Given that the thread title is misleading to say the least.

[Capetonian]

As the original posting was in somewhat stilted English (I'm being polite here) I suspect it may be a machine translation. If this is the case, may we have the original article, then at least those of us who speak Spanish or Catalan could read it in its original version.

[BigFrank]

As a Catalan resident taxpayer,with a passing non-professional interest in airline travel, the balance of expenditure on both Spanair and Ryanair over against other more necessary public services seems noteworthy.

In my opinion, whilst the massive direct subsidies to Ryanair are mentioned tangentially and infrequently in the local press, the monies to/ for Spanair do not generally even merit such brief coverage.

As for expenditure on infrastructure on the ground,the airport at Lleida is to all intents and purposes empty I believe.

I was in the (old) BCN terminal 2 last night and the place was deserted.

All these monies are justified as maintaining the vital tourist industry and its related jobs in a region where 20% is the unemployment figure but, as always, the issue of priorities and of attempting to use state funds to distort free (sic) markets does seem extremely complex.

[IB4138]

Here are some relevant quotes;

Press Release, Source: SAS On Tuesday May 10, 2011.

SAS Group Interim Report January-March 2011

SAS has a remaining exposure in Spanair. In the event of Spanair going bankrupt, SAS’s total exposure is SEK 1.8 billion, but with a limited negative liquidity effect of MSEK 200-300. If such an event were to occur, this means that we would still meet our financial preparedness target with a good margin.

Rickard Gustafson President & CEO



The Catalan Government has come to the rescue of the Spanair airline with a new urgent credit of 20 million €. The money has been granted by the Catalan Finance Institute.

The Generalitat Catalan administration has a 26.7% share in the airline, while total public participation is between 35 and 40% as the Fira de Barcelona, Turismo de Barcelona and Catalana de Inciatives are all also shareholders in the company.

Catalan Government spokesman, Francesc Homs, said that the Government wanted to save the company from ‘imminent sinking’, but he warned that there will be no more options for credit until Spanair can show ‘a certain financial stability’.

Spaniar ended 2010 at a loss despite carrying seven million passengers over the year, the company has not wanted to make the size of the loss public, and says it does not expect a return to profit until 2012.


Source Typically Spanish - Spain Business Jan 26, 2011

Note that the extra cash has been known about since January this year, it is not a new event and is being provided by some of the present shareholders in Spanair.

The quote from SAS of last week contains the only reference I can find in that press release regarding Spanair.

This will not be the first thread of this type on this forum regarding an airline's imminent demise, by someone who is an interested party, or works for one and/or has an axe to grind and wishes to see that airline fail.

[Cyrano]

I think the original article in Spanish is here (http://www.economiadigital.es/es/notices/2011/05/sas_da_por_quebrada_a_spanair_19234.php) (in a publication called "Economía Digital", hence the bizarre mistranslated reference to "accessed the digital economy" at the end of the machine-translated original posting...)

[Capetonian]

Having read the article, it does not to me indicate the imminent closure of Spanair. In essence it's a statement by SAS saying they will protect the interests of all parties. They can't continue to lose a million euros a day though so one does wonder where this will end, some kind of restructuring and trimming?

[IB4138]

Precisely.

I have even taken a look at the notes to SAS's interim report of last week. There is no suggestion of the imminent failure of Spanair.

However, as SAS still own 10.9% of Spanair, under "Remaining Commitments", it occupies most space.

In addition, there is also a possible further payment expected from Lufthansa regarding SAS's former bmi shareholding an an ongoing exposure with bmi of £19million. There is a loan to Air Baltic due for repayment of US$7 million and one to Estonian Air of €7million.

Perhaps NEWYEAR will now let us have his take on bmi trading losses and probability of their going bust, as well as Air Baltic and Estonian Air?

As I said before, this thread by it's title and the originator's comment (based on an online magazine article) has no merit.

[cesare.caldi]

Please add a question mark on title on this thread, probably is more appropriate.

[captplaystation]

BigFrank,

Hailing as you do from my adopted home town you must be painfully aware of the Catalan Govts failure to keep to the promises ,made by its predecessors, to Ryanair. In contrast witness its determination to invest in/subsidise an airline that is a basket case. Even if I were Catalan (which I am not) I would prefer my taxes be spent subsidising Mickey Boy, who previously had 11 aircraft based in Girona, & operated around 89 flights a day.
All the investment in the airport & infrastructure, & the money that poured into Girona, has fizzled out, as Snr Mas has decided he would rather give the money to his latest "Darling" Air Catalunya aka Spanair.

Any straight thinking Catalan should be up in arms about that, not about subsidising Air O' Leary, considering how much dosh they have (& still are via BCN & REU ) bringing to the local economy.

Surely the Ctalans are not letting their regional fanaticism get in the way of the stuff even dearer to their heart. . . making money :D

[BigFrank]

Whilst you, CPS, may see the rival claims of Ryanair and Spanair as chalk and cheese, I for one have more problems in seeing the difference.

The "promises" allegedly made by a previous government have no moral, legal or political purchase when that government loses an election. ¿Can the Spanish owners of BAA berate the current UK coalition government for failing to "keep the promise" of the previous New Labour administration to build a 3rd runway at LHR so long as EU pollution rules could be met?

As for Ryanair´s long term commitment to Catalonia, the very concept is surely as oxymoronic as military intelligence.

Methinks that The Leprechaun and his airline could give any known state airline, bank, finance house or public utility a run for their money in terms of filleting every last eurocent from the public purse whether of Éire, of Catalonia, of San Marino, of Andorra or of Lichtenstein. And of promptly turning up the next day after signing the agreement to ask for more whilst threatening to move locally based airplanes to Andorra la Vella if his outrageous blackmail is not submitted to. All this combined with failing to meet even the most basic of regulations relating to national rules on employment law, on social security payments and a very long etc.

For O´Leary to accuse Artur Mas and his government of welching on a deal is indeed to take the concept of the pot calling the kettle black into stratospheric orbit.

In this context, recent Spanish press reports to the effect that Ryanair has been threatening the Spanish Government in this same way if it does not turn a blind eye to Ryanair´s failure to date to pay a series of major fines levied by consumer authorities make me wonder whether the sell by date of the Ryanair model is now measured in months or in weeks.

None of which is much consolation to the hard pressed Catalan taxpayer.

[IB4138]

Could this thread's origin be politically motivated, with local and regional elections taking place in Spain on May 22nd?

[BigFrank]

As I am not the originator I cannot answer.

As an observer and as a participant of/ in the thread, my hunch is "very possibly"; although quite how many votes PSC/ ERC/ ICV/ EUA/ PP/ CUP/ CiU and a very long tail of fringe parties might hope to trawl from this particular backwater of the internet I do not know. "Not many" would be my hunch there.

More important still would be my question "So what?"

No imputation of political interest in any way minimises, for me at least as a taxpayer in Catalonia, the importance of the issues which I personally have decided to post on:

i) Airline (and airport) subsidies in Catalonia at a time of significant public service cuts
ii) Subsidies for alleged basket cases à la Spanair (on which I have not expressed an opinion due to lack of knowledge. Though I am aware that the Catalan government seems to be extremely well disposed a priori to this airline.)
iii) Subsidies for malevolent predator airlines such as Ryanair (on which I have expressed a clear opinion which I have reinforced at the start of this sentence.)

Out of interest, can anyone supply up to date figures on how much each of these two airlines have received to date from the Catalan public purse ?

[racedo]

In this context, recent Spanish press reports to the effect that Ryanair has been threatening the Spanish Government in this same way if it does not turn a blind eye to Ryanair´s failure to date to pay a series of major fines levied by consumer authorities make me wonder

Can you provide examples of other countries where consumer bodies can levy fines where person getting hit with fine has not been charged nor evidence produced in a court of law.

Given Iberia and Spanirs performance over the years then a history of all the fines levied and paid by them would also be useful.

Otherwise it them comes down to an unelected Quango imposing fines on whoever it dislikes with a party unable to defend itself in any court of law or see the evidence the Quango has manufactured.

[BigFrank]

My knowledge of adminstrative-judicial structures of this nature is limited in the extreme and so I cannot undertake any exercise of comparing & contrasting as you request. I do however suggest that the Spanish structure may well be more common than any sort of UK system.

Given my former clear statements on the matter you will not be surprised that the idea of a Spanish consumer body enforcing the rights of consumers agains such a low class organisation as Ryanair does not cause me any grief. Whatsoever !

Indeed were the consumer organisation concerned to belittle, to mock and to ridicule The Leprechaun himself in a way resembling that in which his employees (though I use the word loosely as they are seldom if ever "employees" in any juridical sense) around Europe berate passengers, especially those whom they perceive as socially vulnerable then not only would I not suffer any grief, I would actually smile a little smile of happiness.

Figures for Iberia and Spanair would indeed be interesting. Past and present figures too.

It would also incidentally, be interesting to know when the Spanish consumer authorities are finally going to enforce the Spanish law which states clearly that it is unlawful to charge seperately for baggage as any sort of extra outwith the ticket price; vague though the concept of ticket price may be for many LCC. Ryanair especially. A law which Ryanair (easyJet, Vueling and I don´t know how many others) break day in and day out.

Figures for fines levied on the low-class-carrier-par-excellence throughout the EU would indeed be interesting too. Though as this post is premised on Ryanar´s attempt to evade the fines in question, we would need to have a seperate column for fines paid, as against fines levied.

[Thebaxfactor]

I agree 100% with IB4138.

NEWYEAR - You are creating an entirely false expectation with your post. It is factually wrong. You have no basis whatsoever to say with any level of confidence that ´Spanair is about to close´.

Further, you have corrected yourself in your 3rd post on the subject by saying ´Spanair is about to close if it can not find investors who squander their money, in my opinion.´

...when you consider defending your position, as likely you will (I hope not), please think about those people who are either directly or indirectly connected to the airline, for better or worse.

In my opinion you have misinterpreted the SAS statement, and created an expectation that has no basis in fact. I urge you to qualify or remove it, and allow the general thread on airline investment to run its course.

TBF.

[racedo]

My knowledge of adminstrative-judicial structures of this nature is limited in the extreme and so I cannot undertake any exercise of comparing & contrasting as you request. I do however suggest that the Spanish structure may well be more common than any sort of UK system.

You don't know but then claim its widespread :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
As for rest of the diatribe think best leave it where it belongs .

[BigFrank]

"...claim it is widespread" is your interpretation of the words "may well be more common than...." which I wrote to express my opinion as to how common the Spanish-style of administrative-judicial decision making might be elsewhere in the EU and then world-wide

Though I believe that you have clearly not understood my statement (or worse) readers will be the judge.

[lederhosen]

It is very unusual for the plug to be pulled at the start of the summer season. If there is any positive cashflow it will be over the next few months. However if I worked for Spanair now looks to be the time to start dusting off the cv ready for what might happen in autumn.

[BigFrank]

That at least is the story being headlined by one of the main Spanish economic papers this morning, Expansion.

I know nothing of the economics or the avionics (sic) but the politico-cultural- sponsorship background might be worth commenting on.

Turkish Airlines are currently one of the major sponsors both of the Barcelona FC ( a well known local soccer team who have not been strangers to success in recent years... or indeed days) and of Euroleague, the basketball equivalent of the combined European Champions League & UEFA Cup (old name), which has its HQ in Barcelona. So in those relatively trivial terms "it makes sense" and to some extent it builds on pre-exisiting links given the small country nature of Catalonia and its petita i alta burgesía catalana cohort of movers and shakers in all the fields just mentioned. Most others too. ( A bit like The City ?)

Now whether any of this is a solid basis for a tie up between 2 airlines, one from within the EU and one from outwith, I will leave to others with more knowledge.

[Oldtimer1]

Spanair will cease all operations today.
En Espanol (Sorry) http://www.preferente.com/transportes/noticias-de-aerolineas/spanair-cesara-operaciones-de-forma-inmeiat-179826.html

This is after Qatar walked away from talks this morning.
Qatar Airways leaves Spanair talks -shareholder | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/27/spainair-qatar-idUSL5E8CR21K20120127)

[Jack1985]

Devastating news :* have fond memories of flying with Spanair to Majorca for the holidays always love them but serious miss management has most likely lead to this along with the crash of JK5022, sincere thoughts to all staff involved.

[MMENCLLBAMAN]

Email just received from ABTA:

Good Afternoon
We have heard reports that Spanair is due to cease all operations tonight at midnight. We have not received official communication in relation to this however it is being reported in the Spanish press.
We understand that Spanair do not operate to UK airports. If you require our assistance please email [email protected]

[Cloud1]

Shame if true, several of my holidays when I was younger started off on a Spanair plane.

[NEWYEAR]

Unfortunately, I was right. :(

[DC-8]

Spanair's fleet of 36 aircrafts ceases operations. Around 2000 employees to lose their jobs.

Spanair prepara hoy la solicitud para suspender su actividad de vuelos | Barcelona | elmundo.es (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2012/01/27/barcelona/1327681726.html) (Spanish)

[NEWYEAR]

Some months ago I wrote the following:

According to SAS, Spanair is bankrupt
The new president of the Scandinavian Airline wants the market begins to assume the bankruptcy of the Catalan Company to protect its titles from the punishment of the shareholders. Spanair may be losing a million euros a day.

On the other hand, Spanair continues to pay salaries and suppliers thanks to the Generalitat of Catalonia & Banks, in other words, is the Catalan Government which prefers to cut the money in Health and Education in order to benefit Spanair which is not self-financing.

Health and Education in Catalonia is experiencing many financial cutbacks due to economic crisis. However, the Government would rather spend the money of citizens in Spanair which has a lot of problems.

In my opinion, Spanair is about to close, that´s my headline, unless they find investors ready to waste its money.

I´m sorry for the employees & citizens

B.R & Thanks.

[hetfield]

Ooops, this will put some pressure on Iberia's pilots union(s)....

[NEWYEAR]

Yes. :(

According to SAS, Spanair is bankrupt
The new president of the Scandinavian Airline wants the market begins to assume the bankruptcy of the Catalan Company to protect its titles from the punishment of the shareholders. Spanair may be losing a million euros a day.

On the other hand, Spanair continues to pay salaries and suppliers thanks to the Generalitat of Catalonia & Banks, in other words, is the Catalan Government which prefers to cut the money in Health and Education in order to benefit Spanair which is not self-financing.

Health and Education in Catalonia is experiencing many financial cutbacks due to economic crisis. However, the Government would rather spend the money of citizens in Spanair which has a lot of problems.

In my opinion, Spanair is about to close, that´s my headline, unless they find investors ready to waste its money.

I´m sorry for the employees & citizens

B.R & Thanks.

[akerosid]

It has been reported that Spanair would cease operations at about 6.30pm, Spanish time. It had been hoped that Qatar Airways would be the white knight, but talks broke up this week and given the state of the Spanish economy, most carriers must be suffering.

Sadly, Spanair adds to a long list of Spanish airlines which have left us over the past few years - most recently Futura.

Spanair began its operations with MD80s in 1988 ...

JetPhotos.Net Photo » EC-FXA (CN: 49938) Spanair McDonnell Douglas MD-83 by John Fitzpatrick (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5828296)

... but changed to Airbus A320/321s from around 2000.

JetPhotos.Net Photo » EC-HPM (CN: 1276) Spanair Airbus A321-231 by John Fitzpatrick (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6347587)

[fa2fi]

Ryanair already offering a rescue fare. Feel bad for everyone involved.

Website down too.

[kbrockman]

Where's the real equivalent of a US type of Chapter 11 for European
companies ?
In most of the EU countries it happens only very rarely that companies go into Bankrupty protection shielding them temporarily from their creditors and enabling them to renegotiate contracts, salaries ,etc.... .
In the US however every couple of years they seem to be allowed to go into bankrupty protection modus without too much complaining from the government.

Makes one wonder what all this talk about free market rules, surviving of the best companies vs bad companies, market competition mechanisms all really means in all the different "free trade" western nations.

Not saying that things are better in the US but only noticing that we all seem to be playing with a completely different set of rules in the aviation world when it comes to its basic economic principles.

-China with its many airlines that all have to follow a centralised planned
strategy when push comes to shove.
-The "free" market US where no company seems to have to pay the ultimate price when **** hits the proverbial fan except for their employees and creditors of course.
-The middle East where many airlines seem to be devoid of economical principles and grow, grow , grow no matter the cost (not aiming at Emirates for those that wonder)
-The Indian market and far East that have many big airlines that do everything except make money on a sustainable base.
-Many nations around the world that still keep an old style staterun airline afloat.
-And than we also have the EU, whereby some get the axe at the first sign of troubles while others go through a long continuous death-debt struggle, than there are those that should have perished long time ago but are kept alive through local politics and last but certainly not least the likes of Air France that enjoy factual monopolies ,are considered free enterprises but are still controlled like it was 1984 again, sucks if you worked for a company like SABENA, hurray if you work for AirFrance, Alitalia.


The only part of the world that seems to be doing things more or less in a fair
and normal kind of way seems to be South America (save for some exceptions like Venezuela) whereby good companies are allowed to grow, and make a decent profit most of the time and bad companies are usually allowed to fail.

[Iver]

Wouldn't be surprised if Qatar Airways offers "expedited" interviewing for Spanair pilots (Airbus ratings). Perhaps Qatar was really interested in sourcing their Airbus pilots due to Qatar's own high pilot attrition rate... :eek:

[Suzeman]

Several JKK aircraft still airborne at 1930 GMT on 27th

All heading for Spanish destinations according to FR24 except an A321 about midway on a flight from BCN - CPH

Another sad story

[d71146]

Ryanair have come to the rescue according to the website I believe.

[stuckgear]

Where's the real equivalent of a US type of Chapter 11 for European
companies ?
In most of the EU countries it happens only very rarely that companies go into Bankrupty protection shielding them temporarily from their creditors and enabling them to renegotiate contracts, salaries ,etc.... .
In the US however every couple of years they seem to be allowed to go into bankrupty protection modus without too much complaining from the government.

Makes one wonder what all this talk about free market rules, surviving of the best companies vs bad companies, market competition mechanisms all really means in all the different "free trade" western nations.

Not saying that things are better in the US but only noticing that we all seem to be playing with a completely different set of rules in the aviation world when it comes to its basic economic principles.

-China with its many airlines that all have to follow a centralised planned
strategy when push comes to shove.
-The "free" market US where no company seems to have to pay the ultimate price when **** hits the proverbial fan except for their employees and creditors of course.
-The middle East where many airlines seem to be devoid of economical principles and grow, grow , grow no matter the cost (not aiming at Emirates for those that wonder)
-The Indian market and far East that have many big airlines that do everything except make money on a sustainable base.
-Many nations around the world that still keep an old style staterun airline afloat.
-And than we also have the EU, whereby some get the axe at the first sign of troubles while others go through a long continuous death-debt struggle, than there are those that should have perished long time ago but are kept alive through local politics and last but certainly not least the likes of Air France that enjoy factual monopolies ,are considered free enterprises but are still controlled like it was 1984 again, sucks if you worked for a company like SABENA, hurray if you work for AirFrance, Alitalia.


Not only that, but the EU seems intent on making the region one of the hardest to start up a new AoC, aside from the business environment, the operational environment is getting harder.

would you throw your hard earned into starting a new carrier in the EU ?

[Denti]

@kbrockman, while many of your statements are true the EU does not have one insolvency rule, it is not a united states of europe (yet), therefore each states has its own set of rules, and some would allow something akin to chapter 11, it is just rarely used for whatever reason.

[racedo]

Sad to see but there was an inevitability about it, especially on a day when figures show 5 Million people in Spain are regsitered as unemployed.

Question is who will suck up the passengers and routes ?

[spider_man]

How many pilots... 400+?

[EI-BUD]

Question is who will suck up the passengers and routes


Vueling comes to mind and its expansion plans at BCN, add Iberia Express when that comes along, outside of that FR and EZY seem well positioned for some of it.

[kbrockman]

@kbrockman, while many of your statements are true the EU does not have one insolvency rule, it is not a united states of europe (yet), therefore each states has its own set of rules, and some would allow something akin to chapter 11, it is just rarely used for whatever reason.

Exactly one of my points, we strive to get one market, logic dictates that this would also mean 1 set of rules for all to use similary.
In fact we have nothing like it, its more like flying an airplane with 25 captains in command all with their own set of throttles and sticks (or yokes), makes for a rather erratic flight most of the time.

Not promoting more EU and less sovereignity but what we have now is, like we say "neither fish nor meat."

This combined with the differences in the aviation industry that exists between all other countries over the world suggest that only one rule really prevails ==> chaos.

[captplaystation]

400 Spanish pilots (a large percentage Airbus rated) will be a bit of a headache for the Iberia unions resisting the setting up of Iberia Express :hmm:

Very forward thinking of the Catalan Govt to renage on their deal in Girona with Ryanair (although they have subsequently been forced to change their mind on that stand-off :rolleyes:) & give it instead to these losers. . . what a shrewd investment that was :D

[testpanel]

Look at the history, look at the current spanish economic situation, read the newspapers, listen to the spansih PM´s, read about the corruption (at high level!) and investigations taking place as we/i speak etc etc.:ugh:

"Speaking to Flightglobal the day before the Spanair reports surfaced, Qatar's CEO Akbar Al Baker said: "We are not in a hurry to take on any sick carrier in Europe."
How true.

Its time for spain to wake up, if they want to continue take part in the EU and todays aviation.

They are angry at easy and ryan, but they strike, taxi at 6 kts or so while their ticket prices go up, and leave pax on their own, its sad.

I feel sorry for their workforce, but it may be a little too late..

[foxcharliep2]

spot on testpanel,

5,3 million jobless, a whopping 600.000 new unemployed per year and they still behave like spoilt kids ...

Ajo y Agua is the spanish slang for it - A jod..se y Aguantar...:mad: might serve them as a wake up call ( doubt it ).


testpanel :

Look at the history, look at the current spanish economic situation, read the newspapers, listen to the spansih PM´s, read about the corruption (at high level!) and investigations taking place as we/i speak etc etc.:ugh:

"Speaking to Flightglobal the day before the Spanair reports surfaced, Qatar's CEO Akbar Al Baker said: "We are not in a hurry to take on any sick carrier in Europe."
How true.

Its time for spain to wake up, if they want to continue take part in the EU and todays aviation.

[captplaystation]

As a non- Spanish , living in Spain, I would have to disagree slightly. The minimum legal wage here in Spain is around 614€, in France it is around 1500€.
If I drive 90km to Perpignan the supermarket prices are around 15% less than here in Girona, the rent for an apartment, around the same.
If you happen to be unemployed in France, you would certainly not be asked to pay for books for your children in school, a meal in the school canteen would not cost 7€, you would have a reasonable level of healthcare, you would not have your electric cut off the same day as you paid the bill (late but paid) in the middle of Winter, if you had been naive enough to take a loan to buy your house for twice the amount it was REALLY worth, you would possibly have more chance to hang on to it, rather than to be shafted by a bank ,that was bailed out by your Govt (at YOUR expense) & to lose your house & still end up owing the full amount to the bank.
This is what I see around me in this country, Ah, but we have the sun. . . . . I agree, 21c in the middle/end of Jan is very nice, BUT, for most it is little compensation.
Unemployment 22%, 18-25 year olds 45? % or thereabouts.
It is not for this that those still in employment have to accept slavery levels of compensation, 800€ a month for many in my region, with rents of around 500 & utilities of 200€ on top, or you think we should return to the days when we tipped our caps at "the Guvnor " & were happy to have some crumbs.
Many things wrong in Spanish society, the principal ones being that they should never have been allowed to join the €, should always have maintained a devalued currency to attract the tourists, & should stop pretending that they have ever been a first-line European nation rather than a (until very) recently peasant /subsistence economy.
Property speculation & telling people lies about their REAL economy works for a while, but hurts when the truth inevitably surfaces.

It is not for this that those in professional positions, be they pilot or Air Traffic Controllers, should have to accept a pittance of a wage if their new (false ) economy doesn't offer anything to someone on the 2nd rate salaries they are told should now be the norm.
When the politicians accept to be paid in accordance with the days of the peseta (or better still in accordance with their performance :D ) they can maybe expect normal people to participate in this manipulative charade.

[Mac the Mechanic]

Watched a tv program about them a couple years back it was filmed while they were moving from Madrid to Barcelona. The part that stuck in my memory was the part where they explain that the move would cause problems as it was the high season and utility was at its highest, the nw CEO that had come from easyjet asked what was the utilisation...8 to 10 hours a day!!!! the CEO laughed at this which the rest of the managers took badly and stated they should be doing at least 10-12 hrs.......At that point they were losing 10's of thousands of Euro's per day. am surprised they lasted this long! Good news for IB express.

[OxfordSpires]

No surprises here. Spanair has been in trouble for years, old aircraft, poor onboard service and finished off by the crash. Even the Spanish pilots union called for Spanair to have their subsides cut at a time when hospitals and schools are being closed.

Sad for those who have lost their jobs, but as they saying goes... the writing was on the wall.

23% of Spain is now jobless.....:mad:

Good Luck Guys..

[Iver]

OxfordSpires,

Love the name by the way - Oxford is a wonderful place. I agree that service levels at Spanair had declined (I flew it several times on holiday). When service levels decline, then price becomes the primary factor and it is tough to compete with Ryan, Easy, Air Berlin and Vueling.

Again, I hope some of the crews get picked up by Qatar and Emirates with their good flying experience on the Airbus. Beyond Iberia Express, probably not many Euro jobs in the near term. Perhaps Norwegian will need pilots out of Malaga (rumour).

[ECHIE]

I wish all the best for the Spanair staff in these very difficult times.

[davidjohnson6]

Confirmed on the Barcelona airport section of the website of AENA, the main airport operator in Spain, and also the Star Alliance website

[jcjeant]

Hi,

No surprises here. Spanair has been in trouble for years, old aircraft, poor onboard service and finished off by the crash. Even the Spanish pilots union called for Spanair to have their subsides cut at a time when hospitals and schools are being closed.

Spanair finally disappears from the sky
And it was time .. because such companies with financial problems are a threat to aviation safety (refer to the last accident of Spanair)

[ECHIE]

Jcjeant.....the Spanair accident was a very unfortunate event what has nothing to do with the economic situation of the Company.

Spanair was a great company with a very professional and kind staff of who I had the pleasure to know some of them.

Some of the comments in this topic are incorrect and hurtful to our colleagues in Spanair. So please keep these comments professional as this forum is intended to be for.

[racedo]

And it was time .. because such companies with financial problems are a threat to aviation safety (refer to the last accident of Spanair)

A very dangerous statement to make as Spanair had one major accident but AvHerald easily flags up many airlines again and again.

Is Air France similar as more people died crossing the Atlantic etc etc or BA many years ago because the airline had the wrong bolts fitted in Cabin windows (nobody died then).

[EI-BUD]

With reference to the comments re the accident having a bearing on the ultimate demise of the company, does anyone know what the general load factors have been over the last few year? has the company been getting smaller or bigger etc? Ie if passenger numbers were in freefall since the accident, then that must be a factor. But I think it has little to do with that.

I would guess that the influx of airlines especially Ryanair at major cities like Barcelona and Madrid have challenged margins hugely. Spanair were often very extremely competitively price on domestic sectors inside Spain.

EI-BUD

[racedo]

I would guess that the influx of airlines especially Ryanair at major cities like Barcelona and Madrid have challenged margins hugely. Spanair were often very extremely competitively price on domestic sectors inside Spain.


I think that has more to do with than a single accident as lets face it who remembers airline accidents when booking unless there are a huge number with same airline in short period of time !!!!

Anna.aero has an interview with MO'L where he stating its focus is now on Central and Eastern Europe because FR have successfully gained huge market share in Spain and Italy, no doubt they will be looking at more opportunities with the demise of Spanair.

Spanair seems to got caught between its original owners SAS and new owners, with SAS desperate to offload years ago. Sadly its another airline where its place in the market was not defined and management / owners unsure what strategy to follow.

Sadly Spanair's demise is not a shock or surprise.

[eu01]

Spanair were often very extremely competitively price on domestic sectors inside Spain.
Well, these low prices had an explanation (not related to low costs). Here is the citation from 2010 (barcelonareporter.com (http://www.barcelonareporter.com/index.php?/news/comments/airline_spanair_signed_a_syndicated_loan_of_50_million_euros _with_several_f/)):
Airline Spanair signed a syndicated loan of 50 million euros with several financial institutions led by La Caixa

The Government, through the Institut Català de Finances (ICF), will inject up to 50 million euros for Spanair to secure the capital for the airline.

This operation shall remain "transitory and temporary", so that the ICF participation in the company lasts until other investors are incorporated into the capital of the latter, as the Government reported. And the next citation is dated 15.11.2011 (ELFAA (http://www.elfaa.com/111115_ELFAA_PressRelease_Spanair.pdf)):
The European Low Fares Airline Association (ELFAA) is forced to condemn once again the latest round of cash handouts to ailing airline Spanair, by the regional government and City Council of Barcelona - this time to the tune of € 25 million.

“This latest injection to keep Spanair afloat is not only a waste of valuable public funds, it is also a flagrant breach of European legislation with respect to competition and state aid,” said ELFAA Secretary General John Hanlon.

The future of Spanair appears to depend on a partial take-over by Qatar Airways, although this has so far failed to materialise. In the interim the airline continues to rely on public money, with an estimate that – to date - €120 million has been poured in with no obvious benefit to the taxpayer and to the detriment of free and fair competition.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Is Air France similar as more people died crossing the Atlantic etc etc or BA many years ago because the airline had the wrong bolts fitted in Cabin windows (nobody died then).

BTW
Air France (if nothing change) is on the edge of collapsing financially
The debt amount is growing exponentially :sad:

[cyflyer]

because such companies with financial problems are a threat to aviation safety

Urmm, how many companies out there are not in financial trouble ? Not many I think.

[MKY661]

Good luck to all.

Lol you canmt even get onto the Spanair website: never mind them saying they have ceased operations. It says on my computer that the connection has timed out when I try to get onto the Spanair website

[captplaystation]

Nothing much on here, because pprune is, finally, an English language website.

In spite of the fact that I think their business model sucked , I nonetheless wish anyone dumped into the job market all the luck available in becoming re-employed ASAP.
An Airbus rating is probably gonna save you. . . for the MD guys, contemplate paying for a rating NOW, rather than wasting money on one in 1 years time ? ? think about it :hmm:

[MKY661]

Spanair likely to be fined €9 million:
Spain takes legal action against Spanair for alleged breach of aviation regulations - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/spanish-airline-spanair-runs-out-of-funds-to-cease-operating/2012/01/27/gIQApt2zVQ_story.html?tid=pm_business_pop)

They may have no money left, but they still have to pay up after breaking serious legalisation security rules.

[mts1]

Well, pretty predictable: Spanair has gone bust. Mainly due to mismangment. More than one senior being a crook there....

[Auto Backup]

After several months of speculation, Spanair was finally shut down late Friday 27th January (the last flight landed at 10.00 on Saturday) after the take over talks with Quatar Airlines fell through and The Catalan Regional Government pulled the plug on any more subsidies.

This was not entirely unexpected however, while sadly some 2000 employees are now out of a job, it will provide extra incomew for the remaining Spanish based airlines not leat the IAG Group of BA and Iberia.

Requiat in pacem!

[PAXboy]

The time for consolidation is past, because there is no commercial benefit in buying out a failing company. Much better to let them die and then pick up any of the routes, people and equipment that you can.

There are more closures stil to come before this recession/depression has run it's course. The decades of artifical support will take some time to balance out and, of course, it's still not a level playing field.

[LH2]

Very forward thinking of the Catalan Govt to renage on their deal in Girona with Ryanair (although they have subsequently been forced to change their mind on that stand-off :rolleyes:) & give it instead to these losers. . . what a shrewd investment that was :D

That wasn't an investment. If you look at the list of so-called "Catalan" so-called "investors" in Spanair you will see a number of ex-politicians and other establishment types. It was downright theft in the best southern European style. What is sad is that it was done in the middle of an economic downturn and they used the money that used to go to RYR for that. Say what you want about RYR (you will be vastly more qualified than me to answer anyway), but as far as Girona in particular and Catalonia in general was concerned, at least they delivered. I have been to LEGE and LEDA in the last few days. The former is a ghost town and the latter is not even open.

[GlasgowBoy]

R.I.P Spanair:sad::{

My very first flight was with them back in 93, GLA-PMI-GLA on a Mad Dog. Aged 3 years old at the time, boarding via rear stairs under the tail was exciting to say the least!

Good luck to all their staff, also.:ok:

[RAT 5]

As RYR, on their website, labels Spanair as a financially unstable airline, therefore always at risk, would MOL care to enlighten us as to which UNION it was that caused this financial instability? Surely it can't have been a management screw up. Only unions can be the root of any demise. They are the evil that angelic management needs to keep at bay at what ever cost. Every airline that I know that has gone down the pan was in spite of unions trying to help the cause. It was always blinkered and incompetent suits that lit the blue touch paper and blew them up.

[AmericanFlyer]

BBC News - Spanair collapses, stranding 20,000 people (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16787761)

[RVR800]

Spain's fourth-largest airline Spanair has collapsed according to the BBC

[captplaystation]

Great to see people with their fingers on the pulse. . . . this happened when. . . . . . let me see, Friday, and we are now, Er Monday, well, thanks for posting :D

Actually, that is a bit harsh, I should probably direct my sarcasm to the Beeb for taking so long to put it up on their news. I think anyone affected has probably found out (the hard way) the news already, without the Beebs help.

[gcal]

Spanair stops flying after Qatar deal falls through (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/spanair-stops-flying-after-qatar-deal-falls-through-367505/)

It was being heavily subsidised by the Catalan government, but a pity nonetheless jobswise.

[captplaystation]

Happened on Friday, 2 threads already combined & moved to Airlines Airports & Routes, do you think nobody noticed for 4 days :ugh:

[hetfield]

Is WW II already over?

[take-off]

Strange that not seen much if anything mentioned in the news about it.

[gcal]

@captplaystation
Seemingly not;)

[zondaracer]

It was front page headline news in Spain. However, the news of Air Astreus didn't make the Spanish news for the most part.

[riverrock83]

It was even on the Beeb:
BBC News - Spanair collapses, stranding 20,000 people (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16787761)

(mods - I presume this thread is about to disappear...)

[captplaystation]

Yep, but not till yesterday, I guess unless you were Wayne & Waynetta stuck in Benidorm with 3 urchins it probably didn't matter.:rolleyes:

For those that have recently posted here, I merely wondered if you thought those of us employed in the aviation industry hadn't noticed , didn't expect it to loom large in the radar of [email protected]

[Chidken Sangwich]

BBC TV news was reporting this over the weekend as I saw it.

So yes there are a few 'hello and welcome to last weeks' on here...

[BEagle]

What a great pity. I have fond memories of Business Class trips on Spanair between Madrid and Germany. The catering and in-flight service were superb - far better than flying with Lufthansa. So I always arranged my buisness trips to use Spanair rather than LH.

Gone now though. Very sad.

I see that the nasty little Irish jackal is sniffing around trying to take advantage of the situation.

Yet another reason NEVER to demean myself by flying with that tawdry outfit.

[davidjohnson6]

BEagle - while Ryanair can be distasteful, it's a basic rule of business that when one company goes bust, its competitors start hovering around like vultures trying to pick off whatever they can. I'm sure Vueling, Iberia, easyJet and others are doing the same - they just aren't always so open about it.

[racedo]

I see that the nasty little Irish jackal is sniffing around trying to take advantage of the situation.

Yet another reason NEVER to demean myself by flying with that tawdry outfit.

And if airlines didn't try and fill the gaps left by a collapsed airline you would be on complaining they are not looking after travelling public.

[Sunnyjohn]

I see that the nasty little Irish jackal is sniffing around trying to take advantage of the situation.

That nastly little Irish jackal provides me, and many others like me, with a low-cost method of getting to visit my family on a regular basis. Please save your invective for the Ryanair thread.

[MKY661]

When do we find out if Spanair get fined the 9 million euros?

[PAXboy]

We can be sure that the €9mil will bounce between courts of law for many moons to come.

[SFCC]

I'm with BEags on this one.
I can't abide the sight of the the snivelling little runt.

[BEagle]

No doubt he's rubbing his grubby little hands together over the demise of Malev as well.....

Those who fly Ryanair are probably the same sort of people who buy pirated DVDs from car boot sales, or imitation fashion clothing made in soute east Asian sweat shops.

Anyway, commiserations to Spanair staff and customers - I hope a reputable Spanish airline will rise from the ashes.

[Sunnyjohn]

Those who fly Ryanair are probably the same sort of people who buy pirated DVDs from car boot sales, or imitation fashion clothing made in soute east Asian sweat shops.

I have never knowingly bought a pirated CD or DVD from anyone - and believe me, the streets and shops of Spain are full of them. I don't buy fashion clothing from anywhere. The last item of clothing I bought was a pair of trousers from M and S. As far as I am aware, Ryanair is neither a pirate airline or an imitation airline made in Asia. If you must make stupid, crass and pointless remarks, as I said before, save them for the Ryanair thread - you'll be in good company there.

[EuroWings]

No doubt he's rubbing his grubby little hands together over the demise of Malev as well.....

Those who fly Ryanair are probably the same sort of people who buy pirated DVDs from car boot sales, or imitation fashion clothing made in soute east Asian sweat shops.

Anyway, commiserations to Spanair staff and customers - I hope a reputable Spanish airline will rise from the ashes

Ignorant stereotyping there. You find all sorts of passengers on Ryanair, from low-budget tourists to the Queen of Spain.

Spanair were hardly Singapore Airlines either. My experiences of them were not particularly impressive; horribly cramped seating on a tired aircraft, indifferent staff and a overpriced Buy-On-Board service consisting of a tasteless sandwich. That's only my experience, it was nothing to complain about but I didn't think they were better value than Ryanair considering the fare paid.

Obviously, it's deeply regrettable that people have lost jobs but many people didn't have a terribly high opinion of the airline's economy class service as it didn't meet other Star Alliance partners in Europe in terms of catering and onboard comfort.

[Sunnyjohn]

Apologies - this is slightly off-thread, but I recall that Iberia had already floated a low-cost airline. It was called Clickair and we used it a couple of times. Although Iberia only had a 20 percent holding, it did have 80 percent of its economic rights. Clickair merged with Vueling, then lost its identity. If Iberia couldn't make a low-cost airline work then, why do they think it will work now? I'm with the Iberia pilots on this one.

[pudoc]

MOL doing what he does best.

Spanair workers reject offer of employment from Ryanair (http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_33641.shtml)

[JSCL]

It wont last. They'll become desperate and wishing to avoid Iberia troubles. Some will have to go to FR if they want to stay in Spain and in the industry.