Loss of Control in IMC. Ignore the statistics or fix it?

[A37575]

It seems common knowledge that a typical single pilot command instrument rating renewal on a light twin engine aircraft takes about 1.5 hours or less. Depending on the largesse of the ATO, the test is usually all hand flown - or at the most, the autopilot (if installed) is used for a brief period while the student changes charts for the next sequence.

On the other hand, during a similar renewal in a Boeing 737, A320, F100 simulator, the pilot under test is allowed - and indeed encouraged - to make full use of all automatic pilot and navigation functions. Instrument let down's, holding patterns and even go-arounds are permitted using the autopilot to track the with amazing accuracy.

Few pilots will disagree that the workload and instrument scanning required of the single pilot in a Seminole, Metro or similar light twin is hard work. Others may privately consider the jet transport instrument rating is nothing more than a mode control button pushing exercise by the pilot's assistant (first officer) with the pilot under test looking on.

This is because the regulations permit the crew to operate as a team; meaning for example, the pilot under test makes his first officer responsible for setting up the automatic navigation of the aircraft. To prevent the appearance of an automatics walk-over, to be fair, the regulations up the ante by requiring at least one approach to be conducted without the use of the automatic pilot or the flight director. This often has the effect of sorting the men from the boys..

Perhaps in the future, the command instrument rating test in big jets should be solely on automatic pilot and valid only for that type of aircraft. Apart from the first few minutes during take off and the last 500 feet on landing, a typical jet transport flight is conducted almost wholly on automatic pilot. - Apart from the occasional visual crosswind landing - good manipulative skills are often regarded by some authorities, as inconseqential. Nice if you have the handling skills (if any) from your youth to fall back on; but nowadays not that vital in the general scheme of things.

This trend may explain the reason why recent statistics have revealed that Loss of Control is the now major cause of jet transport hull losses.

If regulatory authorities thought, (which obviously some don't), that loss of control will continue to be a problem, would it not be logical to reduce the automatic pilot content of a command instrument rating test and legislate that at least 50 percent of a command instrument rating test in a jet transport should be hand flown without the aid of an automatic pilot, flight directors and associated navigation systems?

After all, even with all these automatic systems available to the pilot, recent accidents to jet transports have revealed that statistics don't always lie...

[apache]

agree with what you say, except that the companies I have worked for all require that a HAND FLOWN approach also be completed... and this is usually OEI with a missed approach at the end of it.
Basically, i think that the instances of OEI approaches in heavier aircraft, AND to the minima are less than 1%.

whereas, in LIGHT aircraft, not only do the odds increase, but the skill level MAY not be as high, AND it is usually single pilot.

[waren9]

...reason why recent statistics have revealed that Loss of Control is the now major cause of jet transport hull losses...


What statistics are these? How many jets are lost each year in the western world due to loss of control in IMC?

There is always some cause at the top of the list. Reduce the instances if it, and some other cause finds its way to the top. If its not one thing its another.

Loss of control is the hot potato this week? Righto, overhaul and rewrite the whole checking and training emphasis until it goes away.

Yes, hand flown approach competency should be demonstrated and as far as I know that is the case for all IFR pilots.

[Wally Mk2]

Manipulating the controls manually of a transport cat A/C during any regime of flight is a risk never lone SE in IMC during a NPA App. That's why the auto flight systems of today have been improved over the years too amazing proportions and for good reason.
The human ability is hugely varied for such tasks so unless we can practice these manual handling skills on a reg basis then we have no place doing them once or twice a year beyond what we do now. You can make 10 airframes identical, behave the same way day in day out not so the human element regardless of how much training you throw at them.

I'm sure the public would be thrilled to know that circling a transport cat A/C at night in marginal weather around 800 ft is being hand flown by a couple of tired pilots.

You will NOT make flying totally safe but we can go a long way to making it as safe as possible by way of automation not by making the pilot/s do it manually every now & then.


Wmk2

[b_sta]

Though I don't necessarily disagree, Wally, the evidence (both through real world accidents and through controlled studies) also clearly shows that automation over the past twenty years has resulted in some significant new pilot-related issues of its own, such as the problems of greater stress during high workload phases of flight, mode confusion, mode error and automation surprise.

Given that the automation remains at the helm of the operators, and that under some circumstances due to various reasons like lack of systems knowledge, loss of situational awareness etc those operators may still instigate unsafe modes or settings, one would think that the solution isn't to solely practice higher levels of automation, but to maintain manual handling skills for unexpected situations whilst also ensuring greater education to prevent pilot-induced automation mishaps.

[Tee Emm]

Quote:
...reason why recent statistics have revealed that Loss of Control is the now major cause of jet transport hull losses...
What statistics are these? How many jets are lost each year in the western world due to loss of control in IMC?




There is no shortage of references with regard to Loss of Control statistics. Here is a typical extract:


In Flight Loss of Control is (2007) the biggest single cause of transport aircraft fatal accidents and hull losses (http://www.pprune.org/index.php/Hull_Loss). More attention to recovery from unusual attitudes (http://www.pprune.org/index.php/Recovery_from_Unusual_Aircraft_Attitudes) for larger aircraft operating without a visual horizon reference is also needed, since a significant proportion of airborne loss of control accidents still occur when, if recognition of an abnormal aircraft attitude had been followed promptly by the optimum recovery action, a fatal outcome could still have been avoided

[By George]

Up here on the Island, the instrument rating renewal is 'type specific'. In other words a renewal in the sim does not mean you can dash off single-pilot in a Baron. I keep my single-pilot rating current in Aus and I think the two tests are more different than one being harder than the other. The two worlds are moving further apart with automation etc. The important thing is to know this and not mix and match without the training. The recent spate of loss of control accidents is a by-product of automation. The Sim should have more hand flying exercises, but then the wise men say, "that's not how the aeroplane is designed to operate". I still feel you must keep the basics to survive equipment failures.

[Howard Hughes]

You will NOT make flying totally safe but we can go a long way to making it as safe as possible by way of automation not by making the pilot/s do it manually every now & then.

Oh Wally, those Airbus people have gotten to you haven't they?;)

[Angle of Attack]

That's why the auto flight systems of today have been improved over the years too amazing proportions and for good reason

Yeah the newer ones are great however I just flew a $hitbox 737-400 BNE-SYD a couple of weeks ago and the autopilot disconnected 4 times by itself, no reason just gave up the ghost, 2 times went to CWS others a full disconnect. Once at 1500ft to go on climb to cruising level. Not having a go at anyone just wishing I could get a new autopilot! :ok:

[Wally Mk2]

'b sta' I don't doubt that automation has been responsible for may an accident & will continue to do so whilst humans are in control airborne but imagine having a fleet of A380's out there just as an Eg that are hand flown mostly. It almost sounds laughable & it is really. It's a bit like damned if you do & damned if you don't. It would be difficult to keep a high level of hand flying skills on these big machines that would cover most ABN's so I believe the designers are heading the opposite way, less is best meaning less fiddling & more 'just watch':)
These large airliners are very complex & are built/designed from the outset to be flown with high levels of automation & in order for them to be flown with a reasonable amount of safety with just two drivers up front (as against a whole gamut of tech crew) we humans need assistance by way of fancy auto pilots 'cause it's too much like bloody hard work udderwise:-). Now in what amount of automation we need is debatable I guess to some degree but because we now have complex airways the world over with congestion in & around major airports hand flying these transport cat A/C is no longer possible with any degree of safety/accuracy.
It's busy enuf with 'George' in full swing when in the TMA getting multiple ATC directions without having to pole around several hundred tons of machinery & stay in the loop when the spam hits the fan:-) Sure we practice multiple failures at Sim time but that's purely to keep some very basic skills/understanding for us lazy humans:-)
The two biggest downsides to all this automation as has been said many a time is lose or lack of situational awareness and system knowledge or lack there off. Both can be reduced by any individual simply by being interested in where you are at any point in time whilst flying & by keeping the head in the books, that's personal choice, can't blame automation for that.

Anyway SOPS in any airline would say use the highest level of automation when possible but there would be no law against hand flying a 747 from LA to SY I guess but hands up those that would even contemplate such an act?:)

'AofA' sounds like you would be proficient at hand flying a yank tank if that's a typical day at yr office :ok:I used to fly an old L35 without ALT capture & one got very skilled at leveling off after a 5000' ROC (at low lvl)


'HH' somewhat true what you say there but it's their cricket set & I have to play by their rules:-) Even in the old Beech the A/P as you know is used a LOT especially at night in lousy wx when yr dog tired to make it all work.
So for now until they come up with another way it's rotate, Nav, AP 1/2 on...............ahhhh it's cruzy these days:ok:



Wmk2

[Bang Bus]

Its my understanding that to complete an IFR renewal on a two crew cat aircraft does not mean you can jump into a single pilot seminole and blast off into IMC. Therefore I don't know making pilots in the two crew environment hand fly an entire renewal would be of any huge advantage in preventing IMC incidents. I think that as pilots we were a little more respectful of our own personal limitations, the limitations of our equipment and the environment we are operating in we could probably achieve a better statistical outcome.

[Icarus2001]

Its my understanding that to complete an IFR renewal on a two crew cat aircraft does not mean you can jump into a single pilot seminole and blast off into IMC.

It is MY understanding that once my Command Instrument Rating is renewed I can fly IFR in any aircraft that is on my licence (assuming single & multi is ticked on the form) and I can use any aids that are so endorsed on said licence.

[Bang Bus]

providing your current as a single pilot

11.5 The holder of a command instrument rating shall not act as pilot in command on single pilot I.F.R. flights unless within the preceding 90 days:
(a) that person has completed as a single pilot operation either in an aircraft certificated for single pilot operations or an approved synthetic trainer, 1 hour instrument time including 1 instrument approach, as pilot in command or acting in command under supervision; or
(b) that person has passed the instrument rating test conducted as a single pilot operation.


CAO 40

[Icarus2001]

It becomes a currency issue not an issue associated with the priveleges of the rating.

[Centaurus]

Hands up all those who believe the captain of a jet transport aircraft should be equally competent in the art of automation and the art of manipulative skill... Isn't that what earning your stripes as a captain is all about?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Agreed - but its uncommon.

My current type, 777, is the first of the 5 jets I have flown where the system redundancy is such that it borders on impossible to realistically end up having to hand fly. Certainly if the jet was sufficiently broken to end up HAVING to hand fly the lack of autopilots would be the least of your problems. In my previous type, 767, it was a fairly regular thing to end up hand flying big chunks of a LOFT because the A/Ps, all 3, were knocked out by the non normal...or at least degraded. I hear the silly French light twins are similarly cursed.

On the F28, Falcon, Citation, Bae146 hand flying was VERY common.

We do several exercises hand flown in the 777. The LOFT will be pure auto magics, the basic licence renewal sequence (Base Check) is also pure auto magics, including SE autoland which the 767 was not approved for, but then we are repositioned onto down wind, SE and hand fly an ILS to a missed approach and the exercise is complete when we are on heading, altitude and speed with after takeoff checklist complete. Then we reposition again and hand fly a visual downwind/base/final and land.

I fly about 50hrs/annum in light aircraft - mostly taildraggers - and my landings and general hand flying of widebodies is ALWAYS better after I climb out of a tail dragger. It was REALLY noticeable in the 767 - which is a little challenging to get a REALLY nice landing out of. Any moron can land the 777 and look clever.

[clack100]

The general public expect that they are moved from A to B with the highest level of safety and comfort. Most do not possess a level of understanding of our industry to appreciate the difference between manual flight and automation and the associated safety connotations.

My view is that we must be good at both. We must know our automation intricately, but we must be competent to be able to initiate or complete a flight when it fails. Automation does fail. Only recently, both the auto throttle and the autopilot disengaged in the cruise within five seconds of each other. The auto throttle re-engaged but not the autopilot, so we completed the sector without either. The F/O was flying and asked that I complete the leg as he did not feel comfortable hand flying the aircraft (that's not a dig at F/Os but I don't fly with captains since I are one:cool:).

I see a lot of colleagues rely too heavily on automatics. A visual approach flown through the MCP to a 3 or 4 mile final is generally not smooth. Disengaging the automatics, switching off the flight directors and looking outside will possibly rekindle why we got in to this game in the first place, although I know those days are becoming fewer and further between.

We all need to competent at both. When able, hand fly to ten thousand feet on departure, spend a few minutes in the cruise maintaining a feel for the manual handling characteristics at altitude (properly monitored by your colleague of course) and when VMC or expecting an early cloud break, hand fly the ILS. You will actually enjoy it!

And understand those automatics. I see so many who rely too heavily on them, but often ask "why is it doing that".

[Stationair8]

Why in GA are so many chief pilots, check and trainers and even ATO's so scared of letting people use flight directors and autopliots?

During a check to line with a chief pilot many years ago, I lined up and set GA bars on the F/D for depature and that is where the check ended. Back to his office for a very stern talking too and was told pull that trick again, young fella and you will be looking for a new job! Funny that the previous company I worked for all, the flight director was mandatory for all departures and instrument approaches and during the endorsement you flew a number of coupled ILS etc.

[Tmbstory]

Centaurus:

My hand is up and not only for Jet Transport Aircraft but any aircraft that has automation and a means of hand flying the machine.

Tmb

[Centaurus]

spend a few minutes in the cruise maintaining a feel for the manual handling characteristics at altitude (properly monitored by your colleague of course)

Reminds me of flying 737 Classics for a German airline years ago. Several Brit pilots were contracted by PARC as captains. I used to enjoy hand flying raw data on SIDS that were based upon navaid turning points and happily set up VOR crossing radials etc. By 15,000 ft the practice was complete and conventional FMC navigation resumed. The relieved look by the F/O's was palpable. It wasn't long before I was invited for tea and bikkies having been dobbed in by numerous automation dependants.

Very pleasant and polite chief pilot said that his first officers were not trained to monitor raw data hand flying and please stick to the automatics. I could only presume that he referred to his young pilots who liked to read de Spiegal newspaper on the L and Vnav climb and cruise.

I noticed on another post the writer reported his F/O was ` uncomfortable` when asked to fly with a inoperative AT and handed his leg back to the captain. What an indictment on the training systen that allows a second in command to cringe in fear at the thought of a partial automatics failure. And this bloke is a captain-in-waiting..

[Jabawocky]

As I am sure you all know I do not fly RPT Jets, but if I was the FO mentioned above I would be keen as mustard to hand fly it with the Captain watching over me. Heck that is as good as it gets.

In fact i am lucky at times in the bug smasher....I fly with a retired 20-30K hour C&T Captain is in the RHS. I fly all my climbs manually in IMC and VMC unless I really need to deal with ATC changes etc, and single pilot unless its really bad where I need the extra mental resourcesI do the approach manually, its fun!

For those of you who keep championing the hand skills :D because when I am in the back of the Jet, and its gone ugly I want folks like de Crespigny et al up front. This what what us passengers REALLY pay for, not some fancy chicken or beef!

[sleeve of wizard]

Jaba, its more than just good hand skills that will save the day. Don't get me wrong a good set of hands will stand you in good stead but when you get into large aircraft there is more to it.

[john_tullamarine]

Glad I'm out of the airline flying.

Time was the autopilot (on short sectors) was only for allowing a relaxing partaking of lunch during the couple of minutes set aside for same .... if we can train 200 hour cadets on the Fluf to hand fly raw data .. with all the pressure clocks out ..... to an ILS and land in severe minima ... it's not REALLY all that hard.

Now, of course, command is a lot more than stick and rudder. However, if it all goes pear shaped ... do you want

(a) a good manager who is good on the keypad but not so good on the stick and rudder, or

(b) a chap/chapess who can do it all ?

It's not a case of which out of buttons and stick is better .. both are essential at the end of the day.

The bean counters have a lot to answer for.

[Jabawocky]

Jaba, its more than just good hand skills that will save the day. Don't get me wrong a good set of hands will stand you in good stead but when you get into large aircraft there is more to it.

Sleeve :ok:

My point exactly. When I am paying and down the back, I want good at all facets, not just some, be it either sort.

[By George]

One area that worries me is the use of auto-land to avoid handling a 20 kt cross-wind. The auto-pilot on most Boeings is limited to 25 kts but the aircraft is limited to 30 kt. So with the Typoon season and faced with a 30 kt cross-wind the weak manipulators will, either try it on auto outside the limits or try hand flying without recent practice. The only way to maintain handling skills is to have a play every now and then. Tired in a busy terminal area I always use automatics, but on a lovely sunny day (Captains weather) and not much traffic about, I hand fly from 5,000 ft. Playing around with light aircraft, as mentioned by 'Chuck' also helps and is great fun. To those in denial, I can think of three 737 accidents where the crew lost control taking off at night into 'black-hole' weather conditions. Eygpt, Kenya and the recent one in Lebanon. We shouldn't be losing aircraft 'private pilot style' as professional pilots.