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nomorecatering
11th May 2011, 01:02
Just trying to settle an office arguement.

Is there a limit to the size and weight of an aircraft that PPL can fly with the Appropriate design features endorsemtent, and hiow many passengers he can carry.

One says an A380 with ME, retract, Jet, Pressurisation, endorsements and a type rating/multi crew..etc VFR Can a PPL hold type rating?

Anothother says 6 people total....but thats cost sharing.

Another said, A C402/404 (I think) with the missus and 10 Kids is legal.

So whos right?

CAOs only mention the 6 people cost sharing.

eocvictim
11th May 2011, 01:11
I'm not passing my judgement on this however food for thought, most corporate is done "privately". That I know of personally, up to a global.

bentleg
11th May 2011, 02:10
My understanding is there is no limit to how many pax a PPL can carry (with appropriate endorsements) but he can't ask the PAX to pay. Cost sharing being limited to sharing amongst six.

tail wheel
11th May 2011, 02:50
If cost is a factor, a PPL should probably not be considering ME aircraft?

I don't believe there is any aircraft type limit for a PPL, subject to appropriate ratings?

Amongst the wealthier set overseas, PPL private operation of personal corporate jets does not appear to be unusual. One US PPL recently featured on TV driving a personal GIV/V or similar, although the FO held commercial pilot qualifications.

I guess it all depends on the size of your bank account and ego?

flyinkiwi
11th May 2011, 03:04
I think there needs to be a distinction made between

a limit to the size and weight of an aircraft that PPL can flyand what aircraft a PPL can act as PIC. My understanding is that you may act as aircrew in a multi-crewed aircraft that is operated not for hire or reward with a PPL if the PIC is appropriately rated as a training captain. But if you want to act as PIC with a PPL there is a weight limit that applies.

That's my understanding of the rules, happy to be proven wrong.

JustJoinedToSearch
11th May 2011, 03:27
This is one of those situations where peoples expectations overshadow what the actual rules say (ie, PPL is private so can't be paid, or PPL can't fly multi-crew cause thats a thing only CPL+s should do).

Ignoring practical factors (insurance cost etc) to legally fly an A380 with 800 (whatever the high density LCC config can take) passengers on board this is what you need.

Flying PIC of a day only VFR flight where you pay all associated costs and the passangers don't pay anything.

A PPL, a current flight review, a current Class 2 medical, an A380-800 type endorsement (unless A380 is a class?) which will automatically give you pressurisation and retractable undercarrige (if you don't already have them) design feature endorsements and 3 take offs+landings in the past 90 days.

You will obviously need a co-pilot who can also be a PPL with a Co-pilot A380-800 endorsement.

By the way, as far as I can see, you can get a boeing 377 and fly as PIC with a FO, navigator and radio operator if you want.

*This is based on what I can find in the CAR/CAO etc. If there is something in some other place which makes this impossible please correct me.

flyingpom
11th May 2011, 04:14
See the link re no of PAX discussion: http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/437180-max-seats-vs-max-pax-ppl.html

MikeTangoEcho
11th May 2011, 10:32
If whoever said a C402 with the missus and 10 kids is legal was thinking 2 kids per seat, side by side, lap strap, 77kgs blah blah.. Then that may not be legal. Theres a table in the one of the C books that states maximum number of extra pax based on seats available.

As for the A380 thing, someone once said on here that an aviation lawyer in their spare time (lawyer, spare time.. free??) worked out that a PPL could fly an A380 legally, much the same way as a few people on here have said.. I don't recall reading a pax limit.

PyroTek
11th May 2011, 10:38
Pax Capacity: CAO 20.16.3 12.

No. Pax Seats - No. Excess Pax
2-6 -- 1
7-13 -- 2
14-20 -- 3
21-26 -- 4
27-39 -- 5
40-44 -- 6

:ok:Pyro (Thought I might brush up on some Air Law)

Lasiorhinus
11th May 2011, 10:40
There's nothing, anywhere in the rules, anywhere, that restricts who can fly what, other than the requirement to be endorsed on the aircraft.

The flight manual of the aircraft may specify minimum numbers of crew - and this may be different depending on whether the aircraft is operated VFR or IFR.

The Sultan of Brunei's A380 is a good example. Its operated privately, so you can fly it with a PPL and appropriate ratings. Whether he actually HIRES private pilots or not is up to him.

Xcel
11th May 2011, 10:56
Are people guessing??

6 seats is cost sharing limit...
The comment about corporate is correct except they are atpl and cpl pilots flying private oprations...

You can not fly a multi crew aircraft as pic without an atpl if required on private ops... Ie can't fly your a380. Can fly a certified single pilot aircraft I.e kingair 350 etc as it's obviously private ops as your only a ppl holder.



Miketangoecho I think you'll find 12 In a 402 is legal as per cao table

MikeTangoEcho
11th May 2011, 10:56
Cheers Pyro, exactly what I meant. And cheers to you Xcel, I did a quick bit of research, and yes that would be legal in a 402.

Lasiorhinus
11th May 2011, 12:02
Xcel, wheres the reference for your statement about requiring an ATPL for flying a multi-crew aircraft in Private Ops?

CAR 5.78 What does a private pilot (aeroplane) licence
authorise a person to do?
(1) A private pilot (aeroplane) licence authorises the holder of the
licence:
(a) to fly an aeroplane as pilot in command, or as co-pilot,
while the aeroplane is engaged in a private operation; and

an aeroplane. Thats all.

The A380 is an aeroplane.

JustJoinedToSearch
11th May 2011, 13:49
Xcel your response is exactly what I meant by the first statement in my post.

Just because your expectation is that a PPL shouldn't be able to fly a multi crew aircraft PIC (or co-pilot) doesn't mean the rules agree with you.

If you can come up with some actual legislation that prevents what has been stated I am happy to retract my statements, however you should avoid just stating what you think the law should be in the absence of any actual evidence.

Xcel
11th May 2011, 18:32
well well well...:8

cant find what i thought was there - i was sure about a reference in conditions of endorsements - but after reading the current online regs it is clearly for aircraft engaged in charter or rpt over 5700kgs... which continues on to say about the icus (which ppl holders cant log) requirements.

i am sure that something has changed as there is still the remnants of the requirement that ppl holders can not log command unless the sole manipulators of the aeroplane controls as well... but that could be interpreted either way...

in any case as it stands I shall continue to look for my lost reference but alas at this stage conceed to others as posted (much smarter than i) that it may well be possible. (just cant cost share if more than 6 persons)...:ouch:

Steve888
12th May 2011, 00:46
I agree with the line that PPL holders can fly anything as long as they appropriately endorsed and it's a private flight.

For consideration, our good mate JT *cough* holds a PPL and flies his jets around (albeit as co-pilot).

JustJoinedToSearch
12th May 2011, 03:13
Now that you've mentioned it Xcel, that phrase about a PPL holder only logging command does if they are the sole manipulator of the controls sounds awfully familiar.

If that is the case then perhaps the PPL can only fly as co-pilot not PIC.

The other thing is people arguing about (for simplicity a CPL in a CHTR op) people logging co-pilot time in a SP aircraft. C208/PA31 or B350 even. Often these arguments are involving overseas regs which are quite different but I'm fairly sure there is nothing to stop you logging it if you are acting in any piloting capacity in AUS.

Can anyone find anything specifically about it?

DickyPearse
12th May 2011, 03:41
What happened to the <5700kg requirement that used to be attached to a PPL?

AdamFrisch
12th May 2011, 05:41
That was without a type rating. Anything above 5700kg needs a type rating.

Tinstaafl
12th May 2011, 20:03
The licence required for an aircraft type is dependent on the class of operation ie Private, Aerial Work, Charter or RPT and, when the type is a multi-pilot type used in non-private ops, the pilot's role in the aircraft ie PIC or CP. The <5700kg limitation is the Single Engine <5700kg group endorsement all of us probably have on our PPL, CPL &/or ATPLs.

In Oz there are some PVT category operations that allow a PPL to be paid. Payment received by the pilot only has an effect in so far as it affects the class of operation, otherwise it is irrelevant. s

A PPL can be PIC of other aircraft types but, just like the SE<5700kg endorsement, the pilot must hold an endorsement for that type that authorises PIC - so a co-pilot endorsement isn't sufficient. Unless there is a specific restriction on aircraft size or capacity then there is no limit for a PPL holder eg share costing rules only apply for up to 6 (seats available, or POB for that flight? Can't remember). But if the PPL holder pays for the flight then the share cost rules aren't applicable.