Lossie saved, Leuchars to the Army

[Squirrel 41]

According to the Guardian, at least: Defence officials decide fate of two Scottish bases | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/may/10/defence-officials-scottish-bases)

[Jumping_Jack]

MOD Spokesmans brief...

'DENY EVERYTHING BALDRICK!'

[glad rag]

Best they both stay open or I see Mr cameron having a VERY rough ride in the future.

But nothing would surprise me, the military get stuffed over whilst the other Government Departments have little of the cutback actions actually enforced.

[Tashengurt]

I hope Leuchars doesn't go. A fantastic posting.

[Neptunus Rex]

So where will be the 'Crash Div' for Lossie? Wick? Turnhouse? Inverness International? Dyce?

Best they keep one Voyager on immediate readiness at Lossie - it will be needed sooner or later.

Too many eggs in one basket, methinks.

[pr00ne]

glad rag,


Who is going to give Cameron a hard time over Leuchars if it is handed over to the Army, and just how would they do it?

As to "the military get stuffed over whilst the other Government Departments have little of the cutback actions actually enforced"

What planet do you live on? Most Govt departments, local councils and public sector bodies are taking between 28 and 40% cuts, with some having as much as 50% budget reductions. Defence took a 7.5% hit.

Get real.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I see Mr cameron having a VERY rough ride in the future


Yes, that Mr Cameron had better be careful or else the Tory vote in Scotland might collapse...

[The Old Fat One]

This is difficult to say but....

In this instance, the chap two posts up is correct. And the military have just been given some of the budget cuts back.

Don't overplay your hand.

[Wensleydale]

Probably more personnel to be at an army camp? Me-thinks that there will be some extra free stewarding at the British Open in a couple of years time...

Next question. Does an army camp generate more into the local economy than an RAF camp - bearing in mind the reduced number of Squadrons that will be there? If the army generate more income then Govt (and locals) will be most happy.

[glad rag]

Sorry to burst your tory fan-boy bubble but..


BBC News - Plans to outsource public services 'scaled back' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-politics-13273932)

The government is scaling back plans to use the private sector to deliver public services, the BBC has learned.
Leaked documents suggest ministers have decided the "wholesale outsourcing" of public services to the private sector would be politically "unpalatable".
Ministers instead want to use more charities, social enterprises and employee-owned "mutual" organisations.
Outsourcing was meant to be a key part of the government's drive to cut costs and reduce the UK's budget deficit.

[Pontius Navigator]

So where will be the 'Crash Div'

. . .

Too many eggs in one basket, methinks.

I was an Ops O on nights when aircrew still did Ops. Even 15 years ago we had to scratch around for night divs. Unless booked before the blue moon set Marham would close when their sqns stopped flying which was often 1700. Lakenheath would close at 2100. Invariably we would finish up with East Midlands or on occasion Manchester.

Only one military airfield in the north of Scotland would be no different, except it would need the civil airfield during the day too. Paying for occasional civilian use would be less expensive than keeping a second airfield open as a contingency.

[BlindWingy]

Squaddies in St Andrews! That should stir things up a bit!

[draken55]

Re a Diversion, don't forget Prestwick. It seems to get overlooked by all bar the Canucks! Canadian CF-188's used it on their way to the Med a few weeks back. It's still open late most nights thanks to Ryanair though that could change now that Mr O'Leary has a foot in at Turnhouse.:uhoh:

[wokkamate]

Div'd into Prestwick a few times now, excellent service and very welcoming handling agents. Keep a weather eye open for Grey US C130s and other 'Biz jet' type ac staging through there, nothing to do with rendition whatsoever......

:ok:

[pr00ne]

glad rag,


"Tory fan boy bubble! Me? Oh the irony...

A political about face by Cameron, one of many, because of a political backlash on public sector outsourcing has nothing to do with departmental budgets being slashed by 28% to 50%, councils facing cuts of in excess of £100m and organisations like the Ambulance service facing £500m cuts and losing hundreds of front line staff. It has no impact whatsoever on the fact that defence, by comparison, got off extremely lightly with a 7.5% cut in it's planned budget and no reduction in UOR or operational funding from the reserve.

Tory boy.............. snigger.

[glad rag]

Right pr00ne one last time, slowly.

The cuts you have referred to above were meant to be sustained by transference of work, departments, and jobs to the private sector.
"On 20 February this year, David Cameron wrote in the Daily Telegraph that the government would create a new presumption that all "public services should be open to a range of providers competing to offer a better service" - the only exceptions being national security and the judiciary.

This was meant to reduce overall government budgets AND add a kickstart effect to the economy.

These cuts have now been reduced or eliminated across whitehall apart from the MOD who is still going ahead and scrapping ships, aircraft, squadrons, bases.

OK :ok:

[Finningley Boy]

This is yet another report based on a snippet of information by The Scotsman, its then been picked up by the Guardian. All since denied by the M.O.D. I'm not saying its all hogwash, but the Scotsman is invariably having its reports that Leuchars will close denied by official sources.

Personally, I go with the idea that a much larger number of Infantry personnel suddenly descending on St. Andrews would be like a Hells Angel Gang turning up and setting up Headquarters in Tunbridge Wells. If its true the whole idea will prove a fool hardy one regarding the impact on the local area, thinking particularly of St. Andrews!:(

FB:)

[Green Flash]

IF (such a big word .....) Fort George is to shut I wonder if the incumbants will be moved to Kinloss? Moray Barracks, anyone? Now, that would keep the real estate in MOD hands - Kinloss used as a day div/excercise site, with ATC/Fire/etc detached daily from Lossie? Shut up Baldrick?

[sycamore]

Surely Rupert/Peregrine play golf,don`t they ?...sorry. they do it on horseback!

[Pontius Navigator]

GF, in the short term. It would not be long before the runway needed refurbishing and someone would have done trackies on it.

[pr00ne]

glad rag,


Oh, I see! So there are NO measures in place to reduce the deficit then? You'd better nip out onto the streets and tell those folk who keep protesting about Govt cuts that there aren't any and that it's only poor old defence that is cutting back.

I work in the very heart of the Westminster 'village,' working with and sometimes for large spending Gov't departments and, at the opposite end of the scale with folk seeking legal aid. BOTH of those massively different areas are being hit hard, VERY hard. On top of that my partner is a Council chief exec and they are REALLY feeling the ill wind of reduced budgets.

Nice to know that you think it's all smoke and mirrors then. £95b of cuts and 600 to 900,000 jobs.

Poor defence...

[ShortFatOne]

Rumour around KSS is that 32 (Engineer) Regiment are to due to relocate here.

[Green Flash]

Makes sense. Plenty of room to go digging things up with their combat JCB's, big sheds to store them in. But please lads, stay off the runway (FFS pleeeez don't do a Catterick:eek:) - we'll need it one day! You can dig up the northern woods, the bomb dump and the bondu out to the beach till the cows come home but that big black thing in the middle of the park ......
And if they need to move the big kit about they only have to get them to the rail frieght yards Inverness where Eddie Stobert has built a new container depot.

That would mean DHFCS, MFC, the ARRC, MRT and 663VGS might not have to move.

[glad rag]

"whatever" :ok:

PS I really, really, hope that neither you nor your "partner" have to undergo the sheer brutality of discovering the harsh reality of the very system you serve, but, from your description, you both have a substantial silk purse to sustain you....

[Grabbers]

Oooh, "partner" in inverted commas. Pray tell, why? Watch stuck in the 20th Century glad rag?

[ShortFatOne]

Hoping that MFC can stay, possibly using Northside and the 'parallel', not sure what plans for MRT. If Lossie is staying but filling up with Typhoon (+F35 eventually?) along with retained GR4s, maybe 202 will need to move to create space? ARCC is definitely planning on relocating doon sooth (Swanick), just don't know when. As for DHFCS and 663VGS, not sure. No reason why 663 can't co-locate with MFC, bit more problematic for DHFCS as their assets tend to be somewhat fixed!

[jindabyne]

prOOne

Your argument is specious, and lacks factual perception. Yes, those Gov Depts which you refer to are taking huge hits - rightly so. But how many, if any, are subject to the swingeing, instant, irreversible and far-reaching effects that have been imposed on our Defence capability. At least there is an ongoing debate over NHS, Police, Education etc, but not so with Defence: 'cuts' happened almost overnight. Sometimes I cannot reconcile your past life with your present?

[Green Flash]

SFO - didn't realise that the ARRC was going to Swanners but I can see the sense in that too. Would be an idea if 202 moved over too, maybe the big sheds northside? MFC and the gliders could go back to the VASS hanger and the old VASS complex be reconstituted as a combined Ops.

Given the building restrictions at Lossie, if 202 did go to EGQK then Lossie could 'bank' their hanger against future building works. They flattened one last year. Oh dear, this is sounding far too sensible .....

Confirmation of all this will be the starting of the new tower complex at Lossie ( - that'll mean the place is doomed for sure!:})

[Finningley Boy]

pr00ne

Sorry to join in the attack on you, clearly thoughtful though your arguments are, but please bear in mind that the Armed Forces have been ripped apart in order to help increase expenditure on all these public services over the last nearly 20 years. Arguably the greatest cuts to the military's, in particular the R.A.F's, front line services took place in 1998, 2004 and now. Not forgetting all the piecemeal snipping here and there in between. Could it not be objected that before SDSR came along, the M.O.D. had given up their fare share of assets, real estate and people and really should have been ring fenced? Especially, given the fact that much, much more has been called upon them since the end of the Cold War, to participate in colonial style expeditionary warfare in addition to National Defence and Security requirements?:ouch:

FB:)

[Banana Boy]

......landing at Aberdeen Dyce yesterday, it appeared that an runway extension to the north was in progress. An extra 3000 feet to the existing LDA would help make it suitable as a fast jet div if Lossie does end up as the sole base north of the border. Anybody know if / how much / when Aberdeen is getting longer?

[Finningley Boy]

WHY MARHAM MEANS THE WORLD TO US - Fresh speculation, but no decision yet on Marham (http://www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/local/why_marham_means_the_world_to_us_fresh_speculation_but_no_de cision_yet_on_marham_s_future_1_2666594)

According to the M.O.D. the matter is still not decided.:hmm:

FB:)

[XL319]

Absolute Disgrace!!!! Leuchars has just had it's runways re-laid at I presume a substantial cost, busiest air defence base in Scotland.

Where would the Typhoons go if Leuchars closes? Leeming maybe? Leeming has ample space at the moment.

[Green Flash]

Where would the Typhoons go if Leuchars closes? Leeming maybe? Leeming has ample space at the moment.

Pardon? 14 Sqn's hanger and Sqn offices are now vacant and there are lots of HAS's too.

They widened every single taxiway at Kinloss too but it didn't stop 'em closing it ...

[Dan Gerous]

busiest air defence base in Scotland.

I suppose if your the only air defence base in Scotland, your the busiest.

[racedo]

They want to keep the bases open just in case SNP gets uppity and votes for Independence.

Could get really interesting then :E

[glad rag]

Oooh, "partner" in inverted commas. Pray tell, why? Watch stuck in the 20th Century glad rag? Who gives a flying "FCUK" what ones partner does?

I don't, BUT I didn't start the precocious reference. :ok:

[Grabbers]

What's precocious about using the word "partner"?

[glad rag]

Ask pr00ne, it's him putting that particular reference about and you are diverting away.

[LFFC]

Army and RAF in row over future of air bases (http://news.scotsman.com/news/Army-and-RAF-in-row.6766150.jp)

The report before them had an "option A" recommending that RAF Lossiemouth in Moray remains as an air base, while RAF Leuchars in Fife becomes an army base.

But it has emerged that the report also has other options and a decision has been delayed partly because of disagreements between the RAF and army.

According to an MoD source, the air force is trying to keep RAF Leuchars as a base too, but the army is resisting the option of going to Moray to be stationed in RAF Kinloss, which has been closed with the cancellation of the replacement Nimrod.

[glad rag]

The Scotsman rag again.

[nJayM]

Hope 2011 RAF Leuchars Air Show is safe at least

Life would be dull just relegated to the comparatively tame East Fortune show.

[Neptunus Rex]

Wasn't Fort George given to the National Trust in the early 1960s?

[The Old Fat One]

Glad Rag,

You post a suggestion that the public sector (of which the armed forces are part) and then in support you post an a part of a BBC article on private sector outsourcing???

The two things are only very tenuously related. Public sector outsourcing to the private sector (which is already a massive industry) is just one means of achieving cuts, but is politically sensitive because it is seen to replace public sector jobs with private sector profit (in my eyes, a very good thing). Hence the soft shoe shuffle by Cameron (a sign of weakness).

To support your argument you need to post an article that suggests that the public sectors cuts are being scaled back, except for defence related cuts which are being scaled up.

Good luck with that.

PS Not a tory, nor a labour. I can't stand politics or politicians of any flavour.

[Icanseeclearly]

Think you are all missing the point.

Now Salmond and his lot are in power with a majority the whole way of looking at this needs to change.

The SNP are committed to spending minimal amounts on defence (in effect creating a defence force not available for overseas deployment on anything other than "peacekeeping" duties and then only for short periods) and are also commited to withdrawing from NATO (I have this from the horses mouth as I know Angus Robertson their defence spokesman unfortunately for me).

So bases need to close, would you keep them open in Scotland where in all likelyhood in a few years you will need to close them and relocate everything south of the border? personally im surprised they are talking of moving the army in.

Lets face it the SNP are in a win win situation they are jumping up and down screaming about base closures (which they will do anyway) should they close they will shout "London dont care about Scotland etc etc etc" if they keep the bases open "we beat London - they dance to the tartan tune"

Interesting times ahead.

[draken55]

The SNP "policy" on Defence is, in effect, to have only Eire style Defence Forces. In fact Eire was one possible Model for the Scottish Economy too until the Celtic Tiger went pfutt!

From a practical point of view the SNP now has a problem! Scotland has thousands of workers at various Air Force, Army and Naval Establishments as well as a key role in buiding the aircraft carriers and future frigates which would only be put at risk by them talking up the need for a Referendum. The SNP has no intention of doing this and will instead seek more devolved powers in certain areas, for example some aspects of Taxation. Keep an eye on the Scotland Bill passing through Westminster!

Spectacular growth in the SNP vote, if reflected in a Westminster Election, (it never has) might suggest moving Trident to the Thames but I would not get too excited at the prospect yet.:E

[maxred]

Salmond is one of the brightest and politically astute politicians we have. He knows exactly how to play the Westminster playground. However......

The Catch 22 here is that Scotland, to keep employment, local economies surviving, etc etc, requires the bases to be protected. Their (SNP)defense manifesto, states minimal defense. A problem.

We also know that these bases, within reason, can be anywhere on the UK mainland. We also know that we appear to have too many UK bases, as per the review. A problem.

Add in the mix the ''coalition'', and frankly you have one almighty mess, which will come as no surprise to anyone.:\

Salmond from the Scottish perspective will have to play this one very carefully, as will Cameron, and something will have to give. My view is that the good old compromise may surface, where nothing happens, except doubt and uncertainty, until the cards fall, and that may take some time.

[general all rounder]

@ pr00ne.

You are completely right that Defence took a smaller hit in the Comprehensive Spending Review but a little bit of context is appropriate. Defence has had little growth in its real budget in the last 20 years and the growth it has had has not kept pace with inflation in Defence costs. Consequently there have been cuts in every Planning Round as far back as I can remember. By contrast both Health and Education have benefitted from very significant expansion in their budgets - much of which has not translated into increased output; take a look at the budgets of Defence, Education, Health and Social Services in 1989 and take another look at them in 2010 to see the point. The output of the Armed Forces has undeniably increased very significantly over the last 20 years but we are now at the point where resources and commitments don't match.

There is plenty which could still be done to cut costs but the areas to look at are the business costs imposed by Government in the form of 'red tape'. This is an area which has undeniably expanded massively especially over the last decade and could be radically cut back. The answer then is to take another look at what is important and what is not - and stop doing that which we can't afford any more. If the government were cutting costs in that way - there would I think be some logic to the cuts, and they might even be welcomed. Instead we are focussed on cutting the means of output without actually cutting the commitment (indeed our commitments just got bigger, again). It is here that criticism should lie.

[Benjaminw1]

I'd like Glad-rag to explain the 530 local government redundancies in my local council over the next 3 years, and the reduction of the Connexions service from 36 people to 7 last month? Figment of my imagination I suppose. Along with the reduction in my education job to term time only in September (an immediate reduction of 14% in my salary) I'm probably making it up as I am Tory Boy or something... Tool.

[The Old Fat One]

Just for clarity....

If the argument is that the government is not doing enough to reign in the excessives of our bloated, inefficient and wasteful public sector (all of it), I completely agree.

If the argument is that the government is (relatively) favouring health, education etc at the expense of defence, I completely disagree.

[glad rag]

explain the 530 local government redundancies in my local council over the next 3 years

I think the important bit is the timescale as you statedI believe that the reductions are still to happen?

Go read the Telegraph article again.

It does give the apperance of a U turn and it's now all about staying in power not "doing the right thing".

[Trogger]

Close all the bases in Scotland? That's a vote winner - NOT.

Salmond is a yap o' ****e - he would risk 1000's of Scots becoming unemployed and millions of pounds removed from local economies? I doubt it somehow. He's riding high on a tartan wave right now, and so can get away with the current nationalistic posturing, but he best tread very carefully over the subject of base closures. Witness the recent marches by residents of Lossiemouth against the threatened closure - multiply that by all the folk working on the bases and the locals 'supporting' the bases across Scotland...

I suspect if he has a referendum on leaving the Union he might be as disappointed as the LibDems were with the Yes To AV vote...

[Chicken Leg]

Personally, I go with the idea that a much larger number of Infantry personnel suddenly descending on St. Andrews would be like a Hells Angel Gang turning up and setting up Headquarters in Tunbridge Wells. If its true the whole idea will prove a fool hardy one regarding the impact on the local area, thinking particularly of St. Andrews!

:hmm:Go on then, I'll bite. Explain your concerns.

[draken55]

"Explain your concerns."

Well to do University Town (William and Kate et al) and the home of golf plus a few thousand squaddies in town each weekend = potential issue for Ming the Mighty as sitting Liberal MP:E

!

[Roadster280]

Utter BS. Salisbury, a well-to-do Cathedral City has done alright with a few thousand squaddies (and crabs) right next door for a few centuries now (well Army anyway).

If one thinks that airmen make better neighbours than soldiers, one only has to look as far as Carterton for a shining example of how untrue that is.

[Finningley Boy]

It may well be a Cathedral City Roadster, but it is as you say, a long established Garrison town. The character of St. Andrews though, is still far more likely to have a hefty culture chock visited on it. I understand the inhabitants around Abingdon and Oxford weren't too happy about the Army moving into Abingdon (Dalton Barracks), whether their fears were unfounded is entirely possible I'm sure. But the Army by nature employs a lot more young men, who by nature of the kind of service environment and culture they are brought up in, means at the very least, local perceptions aside, there will be an increased likelihood of larger groups of young men with "attitude" shall we say, looking for a good time on Friday and Saturday night. No doubt St. Andrews would cop its share of young soldiers thronging into Ma Belles and the West Port, just looking for a good time chatting up the young students. When I was stationed at Gatow (although just one particular regiment) the Black Watch billeted a hundred yards or two down the road at Montgomery Barracks were banned from entering the R.A.F. Station, by the Station Commander. This was following an incident involving a knife being pulled at the Naafi Disco one night. Then there was another incident in which a Sergeant from my own unit, charged a small gang from said Regiment who were drunk on the Bus returning from a night out, they allegedly had been making luid remarks to a young girl on the Bus. She was the Group Captain's Daughter. However, upon arrival at Monty Barracks, said Sergeant, Gerry Flanagan, got a culture shock of his own when he saw how the Guardroom RMPs/RPs dealt with the matter in short order. I think he ended up feeling sorry for them afterwards and wishing he'd said nothing on that score alone.:eek:

FB:)

[Always a Sapper]

Ahh Leuchars, St Andrews, Cupar (ok, cut Cupar out) nice peacefull places, spent a happy 3 years at Leuchars with DCRE.

The chicken was nice on the bbq btw... once it was de-feathered, as to how it got there? Anyway I degress from the matter in hand.

Stick a few regiments of Squaddies in Leuchars? No probs, I wouldnt worry about it, the place will be as peacefull as ever. For about a week that is, month max by then all the kit will have been put away...

Meantime recces to find what pubs/clubs the local 'attractions' use will have been done and dusted. And the old beer token pot topped up in the bank ready....

Then, one not so quiet Friday night.... mayhem will spread :E Life will never be quite the same again as the area slowly transforms into.... the Scottish version of Aldershot :eek:

[Always a Sapper]

There is one good thing though... Todays squaddie is nothing like the beast inflicted on the local populations back in the late 70's through to the 90's.

Todays squaddie is much more civilised, come to that, you could almost describe them as being partly house trained....

[glad rag]

And their is ALWAYS the Irish question. Would the good people of NE Fife be understanding of going from Medium to High? from "over the water"

Oh did I say Irish? Sorry wrong decade or so.

SACC | Special Branch Terror Unit (http://www.sacc.org.uk/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=233&catid=27)

or not.:confused:

[parabellum]

As a one time member of the Royal Engineers, stationed at Ripon, Yorkshire, among other places, I think you may find that some of the locals may not appreciate the lads letting their hair down at the weekends but all is forgiven, on a regular basis, when the lousy weather comes and we were able to rebuild roads, bridges etc. get fodder to animals, pull stuck vehicles out of snow drifts, get stranded people to safety, get sick people to hospital etc. etc. etc.

A regiment of Royal Engineers and a regiment of Army Air Corps would probably brighten the place up a bit and give it some class!:)

[Finningley Boy]

As a one time member of the Royal Engineers, stationed at Ripon, Yorkshire, among other places, I think you may find that some of the locals may not appreciate the lads letting their hair down at the weekends but all is forgiven, on a regular basis, when the lousy weather comes and we were able to rebuild roads, bridges etc. get fodder to animals, pull stuck vehicles out of snow drifts, get stranded people to safety, get sick people to hospital etc. etc. etc.

A regiment of Royal Engineers and a regiment of Army Air Corps would probably brighten the place up a bit and give it some class!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif


Is that now a problem for the Fife coast area is it? How've they cope til now?

FB:)

[Neptunus Rex]

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.Not a lot has changed since Kipling's day.

[Pontius Navigator]

by nature of the kind of service environment and culture they are brought up in, means at the very least, local perceptions aside, there will be an increased likelihood of larger groups of young men with "attitude" shall we say, looking for a good time on Friday and Saturday night.

You mean like Doncaster and Rotherham. In fact in the former probably since Roman times.

[parabellum]

Finningley Boy - Where were you based in the UK and were so embarrassed by your Army colleagues?

[Finningley Boy]

Finningley Boy - Where were you based in the UK and were so embarrassed by your Army colleagues?


My greater experience of the Army was in Germany and Belize, and no I wasn't embarrassed by them personally. Indeed, the ones from the Royal Signals and R.A.O.C. for the most part, whom I worked with and lived alongside down at Birkenfeld in Germany were a fantastic bunch. I was at one point thinking of transferring over. But when out in Belize and in Wes Berlin, as I've pointed out earlier, the behaviour of the Infantry, shall we say, and for the reasons given, young lads embued with a tribal mentality, may well make a noticeable difference to the atmosphere in certain parts of the country, you've read the story about the Black Watch. That said, they had a particular reputation, even among Scottish Regiments.

I used to get plenty of stories from the army chums at Birkenfeld, who like us from the R.A.F. regarded Birkenfeld as a holiday away from it all. We were all under the U.K. Support Unit at Ramstein AB, billeted at Neubrucke and later at Birkenfeld and the actual place of work was the Comcen and various EACs and Ops Cells at the NATO Central Region Static War Headquarters. It was without a shadow of a doubt, the best tour I ever had and none the less so for the Army being there. But I learnt something from them and at first hand about the line units shall we say. Not that it worried me in particular but regarding Leuchars, to be perfectly honest, there probably are only subjective arguments for it remaining an R.A.F. Station. That said the arguments for moving everything up to Lossiemouth and moving the Army in there are not built around any clear military thinking, or I imagine this would have been part and parcel of the SDSR or arranged many years ago. The question about moving the R.A.F. from Leuchars surfaced only last October, and then only because of the reaction of the Lossiemouth community that they could experience a double economic blow from the additional closure of Lossiemouth as well as Kinloss. If the Army are moving back from Germany in the future, then what is the argument against them moving into Lossiemouth and Kinloss, considering the greater availability of infrastructure and being on the doorstep of a more realistic training ground. Also, the economic argument is solved. But now the problem has grown tentacles and people have gotten tunnel visioned thinking that the R.A.F. must remain at Lossiemouth at all costs, hence Leuchars is unnecessarily dragged into the debate.:suspect:

FB:)

[parabellum]

Thanks Finningly Boy, very understandable that the RAF wouldn't want to lose Leuchars. If the Army have to move north what would be so wrong with them going to either Lossie or Kinloss, I agree, but as for working out the logic, that, as our American friends would say, is way above my pay grade!

Our family regiment is the Black Watch! The bit in blue under my ID is their motto from the cap badge! They can be a bit high spirited at times;)

[Steve Bond]

A "hanger" is for clothes, a "hangar" is for aeroplanes.

[navibrator]

I was hoping we would pull out of Scotland completely. It's miles away and the Scots hate us. So why do we stay?

[Finningley Boy]

As a Jockshireman who lives in Ingurland all I can say is three cheers for the act of Union!:ok:

FB:)

[ORAC]

Torygraph: Defence shake-up means our smallest Army since the Boer War (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/8642576/Defence-shake-up-means-our-smallest-Army-since-the-Boer-War.html)

The reorganisation will see the Army shrink to its smallest size since the Boer War, while Britain’s reserve forces will benefit from a £1.5 billion investment programme........

In a separate development it is understood that RAF Leuchars is to close, leaving only one RAF airbase in Scotland. The site will become an Army barracks.

The Sunday Telegraph understands that the Ministry of Defence has secured extra funding from the Treasury in the next spending round, after 2013, of £1.5 billion to pay for the overhaul of the reserve forces as well as more funding for the equipment programme. The extra cash will pay for 14 Chinooks, which are due to come into service after 2014, three new Rivet surveillance aircraft and upgrades to the Army fleet of ageing Warrior armoured vehicles.........

The closure of RAF Leuchars will leave Scotland with just one functioning RAF base at Lossiemouth, currently home to a Tornado GR4 Squadron. The new barracks at the Leuchars site will house thousands of soldiers due to be withdrawn from Germany in the next few years. The decision to transfer the two typhoon squadrons currently based at Leuchars to RAF Lossiemouth was only finalised last Friday, although rumours of the move had been circulating for months.

It will also be announced that RAF Marham in Norfolk — another Tornado base — will remain open, primarily because it is the only Tornado servicing facility.

[NutherA2]

RAF Leuchars is to close....................The site will become an Army barracks.

Ah well, there goes the neighbourhood.....:{

[sitigeltfel]

Quote:
RAF Leuchars is to close....................The site will become an Army barracks.

Ah well, there goes the neighbourhood.....:{

A good friend of mine, who is a lawyer specialising in court martial work, is based in Tayside and gets a fair number of "clients" from the RAF at Leuchars. The prospect of the army taking over has him rubbing his hands with glee.

[engineer(retard)]

"£1.5 billion to pay for the overhaul of the reserve forces as well as more funding for the equipment programme. The extra cash will pay for 14 Chinooks, which are due to come into service after 2014, three new Rivet surveillance aircraft and upgrades to the Army fleet of ageing Warrior armoured vehicles"

Must be a car boot sale somewhere, that is a lot of kit for that money.

[1.3VStall]

A simple question; can anyone explain why we are buying aircraft to survey Rivets?:ugh:

[MFC_Fly]

A simple question; can anyone explain why we are buying aircraft to survey Rivets?:ugh:
Because you can survey them quicker (and therefore more of them in the same time) than if you had to walk :ok:

[elderlypart-timer]

So are we getting cuts post-2015 or increases? Mike Smith in the Sunday Times today says Osborne has refused to a 2% increase in resources after 2015. But then he goes on to say that the Cabinet has said we can have a 2% increase in the equipment budget but not in anything else. As ever my brain is clearly not large enough to comprehend how you can increase the number of platforms you buy but not the air and ground crew you need to fly them.

[Squirrel 41]

E P-T,

As ever my brain is clearly not large enough to comprehend how you can increase the number of platforms you buy but not the air and ground crew you need to fly them.

I think that the answer is that the equipment programme is so far short of balance that a 2% increase can be absorbed easily [and will still fail to provide the] kit for a smaller force.

S41

[iRaven]

but not the air and ground crew you need to fly them

The answer could also be in the Torygraph article through the proposed use of cheaper reserve forces to do some of the other "stuff" that our manpower do. Thus you will now have the manpower to do the core air power business of flying aircraft.

iRaven

[ghostnav]

As ever my brain is clearly not large enough to comprehend how you can increase the number of platforms you buy but not the air and ground crew you need to fly them.

Sadly George hasn't comprehended it either! I suppose a pay rise will be out of the question?

[typerated]

Leuchars loses fight to be RAF's home in Scotland - Scotsman.com Heritage & Culture (http://heritage.scotsman.com/scotland/Leuchars-loses-fight-to-be.6803167.jp)

Surely all the GR4s can not be squeezed into Marham, even if 1/2 the force is away on ops?

Will some stay at Lossie or will more GR4 Sqns get the chop?

TR

[Chainkicker]

Surely all the GR4s can not be squeezed into Marham, even if 1/2 the force is away on ops?

Will some stay at Lossie or will more GR4 Sqns get the chop?

I know which I would guess at post 'Stan & Libya :*

[green granite]

Surely all the GR4s can not be squeezed into Marham, even if 1/2 the force is away on ops?

They'll probably re-open Coltishall as a satellite station. :E:E

[rab-k]

So what now for the UAS/AEF? Back to Turnhouse?

[XR219]

So what now for the UAS/AEF? Back to Turnhouse?

Doubt it. What's left of RAF Turnhouse is now occupied by the cargo operators, and Edinburgh Airport are not keen on light aircraft.

Looks like RAF Kirknewton will be the RAF's only other flying station in Scotland now... :hmm:

[NutherA2]

So what now for the UAS/AEF? Back to Turnhouse?

Back to Scone, perhaps?

[glad rag]

Going on from the thread title....

BBC News - Army to cut 19,000 as reservists trained for front line (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14181145)


Read the 4th paragraph............:hmm: :rolleyes: :hmm:

[Marham69]

XR219.... "What's left of RAF Turnhouse is now occupied by the cargo operators..."

I suppose we all suffer these pangs of nostalgia at times. First posting after Uni/South Cerney was to RAF Dishforth - Student Pilots Holding Flight. The Flt Lt OC was a magnificent organiser... "Where would you like to go, Chaps, for the required couple of months?"
So it was off to a detached Flight of the Metropolitan Comms Sqn at RAF Turnhouse. A delightful time zooming around the UK in the RHS of a Pembroke.

Happy days.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Just heard this has been officially announced; Lossie is staying, Leuchars is going to the Army, and the Typhoons currently at Leu will move north. Not heard any timescales or any detail.

[sitigeltfel]

The details here...

BBC News - RAF to pull out of Leuchars as RAF Lossiemouth stays (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-14182729)

[Geehovah]

I never served at Leuchars but its the end of an era.

[captplaystation]

Visiting numerous airshows (many of them BofB shows on cool Fife Sep weekends) had a large influence in me entering aviation, as a callow yoof.
Many happy memories of the early seventies air-show mass streaming departures of unfathonable numbers of Lightnings/Phantoms, & how to ever forget the transonic passes at chest height by "The Slivers", crazy Belgians in Starfighters.

I was grateful too for a few GCA's followed by a quick dirty dive up the coast in my Cessna to Dundee, whilst coming to grips with "hacking it" as Ted Girdler used to put it, whilst simultaneously avoiding the East Coast StratoGranite. Had a go in the F4 Sim once too,courtesy of Paul Ricard, who used to instruct part time with us in Dundee, bit different to my Cessna 152 of that era.

Thanks Leuchars, for fuelling a teenage dream, realised & cherished for > 30 years now !

[XR219]

Looks like RAF Kirknewton will be the RAF's only other flying station in Scotland now...

Looks like I spoke too soon... according to the BBC article sitigeltfel linked to, the pongos will be taking over Kirknewton too!

[liquid sunshine]

Is it just me or is anyone else becoming seriously concerned at the complete lack of strategic thinking by this government. The incompetence just beggars belief. The RAF soon to be down to 4 or 5 frontline fast jet stations. A terrorist attack of far less complexity than 9/11 etc could easily shut the RAF down. Worrying times!!:=:=

[Jayand]

How very alarmist! it's just you.

[Jimlad1]

"A terrorist attack of far less complexity than 9/11 etc could easily shut the RAF down."

Without wanting to sound blase, I would suggest that shutting down a permanent RAF base on a full time basis is a significantly challenging task, which would require more than either the hijacking of 5 x airliners, rediverting them and then crashing them, all the time without ADANA being called.

Perhaps you could point the threat out which has potential to wipe out all of our home stations at once?

I am rather boring, but I'd rather see money spent on kit, and not on surplus infrastructure if possible. We're in the business of closing with, and killing the enemy and not estate management. :E

[sitigeltfel]

No doubt the Army will be bringing a lot of heavy stuff to Leuchars. Have any of them bothered to look at the roads in and out of the place?

[airpolice]

Stig, have you ever driven to Catterick?

[glad rag]

Yeah that Catterick next to the A1??

"Have any of them bothered" obviously not.

[airpolice]

That's RAF Catterick that's beside the A1. The heavy stuff is at Catterick Garrison, out to the West. They even have a BFO Tesco and seem to manage with roads the same as Leuchars.

[PMA's Toy]

Roads to Leuchars aren't a problem really. Straight up the M90 to Perth, along to Dundee, over the bridge and you have small roads for what, 10 miles maximum?

Much better for difficult stuff than just heading along through Auchtermuchty etc.

[Tashengurt]

I went to Leuchars as a seventeen year old Squipper. I spent nine years there. Another excellent posting gone.

[sevendwarfs]

What about Barkston Heath and Syston - why are they still open? Can't be that much flying going on at Cranwell now the Dominies have been taken out of service. How many other ancillary airfields do we still own? Digby and Scampton - could that go too? While we're at it, let's bin the Reds. If we scrapped all of the above surely we could afford to keep a GR4 Sqn.

[rhajaramjet]

liquid sunshine has touched on the most significant point - the utter lack of proper strategic thinking. Moving the Typhoon jets north to Lossie will leave the QRA ideally placed for a faster reaction to those nasty Tu95 Bears and Blackjacks that violate our airspace and are such a threat! Oh, but I forget - that was the Cold War. Silly me.

Liam Fox is shaping up to be a true "Son of Sandys" the Tory Defence Minister who wreaked havoc on our military and our defence industry. He simply does not understand Defence. When he axed the Nimrods he said (and I quote exactly) : ".. if we do need that capability we may have to get it from somewhere else." As though there's an MPA force sitting on a shelf somewhere.

But the real strategic mess in all this is, as already alluded to earlier, is in our defence against the current terrorist threat. The Typhoons at Coningsby are too far north as it is; a 9/11 type airplane bumbling across the channel at a thousand feet ot two would be buried in Big Ben long before a Typhoon scarmbled from CGY could get to it. That threat has been demonstrated for real. And let's not forget that we also need to provide total protection for the 2012 Games. Our brilliant MoD answer - move the Typhoons even further north out of harms way. You couldn't make it up. :

[pr00ne]

Oh good grief! I can't believe that I am doing this, springing to the defence of a Tory administration, but here goes....

sevendwarfs,

Barkston Heath is home to the 2 Elementary Flying Training squadrons that supply the FAA and AAC with pilots, Syerston is home to the Air Cadets Central Gliding School and a couple of Volunteer Glider squadrons. Close them and you have to find new homes for all those units.
They are also bases with minimal or no infrastructure, they cost peanuts to run and are not valuable development land. Closing them would barely get you a Transit van let alone a GR4 Squadron!

Digby is a busy fully occupied station, if you close it you just have to spend a fortune relocating the resident units and reproviding them with infrastructure. Scampton IS closing.

Did you fail elementary economics?

As to the fantasy Island nonsense of a 9/11 attack on the RAF or Big Ben, what are you folk on??

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Good rebuttal pr00ne but you forgot the Reds. However, shame about your last para.

[Lima Juliet]

Rhajaramjet

The Typhoons at Lossie may be better placed at Lossie to deal with Terrorist controlled airliners crossing North Atlantic Track (NAT) routings that normally drop in anywhere from Shannon to Benbecula (depending on the jetstreams).

The capability from somewhere else referred to Type 23 Frigates, Astute Class SSNs and Sea King/Merlin ASW helos protecting our independant nuclear deterent - that was Nimrod's primary role. Long Range SAR was always at best a tertiary role to other things.

The escorting of Bears and Blackjacks in our airspace is not just a "Cold War" task. They do not carry IFF that civil ATC agencies can see and cannot be detected by TCAS - how safe would it be to let them "bumble about" undetected in our main trans-atlantic routing areas. Also they are out there for a reason. Either they are collecting SIGINT or supporting their subs that are looking for our subs - how stupid would we be if we did not watch what they are doing in the airspace that we have been assigned more than 12 miles from our coastline!!!

Sorry to bleat at you, but your comments deserve some feedback in my humble opinion.

LJ

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Scampton is closing?

[MFC_Fly]

But the real strategic mess in all this is, as already alluded to earlier, is in our defence against the current terrorist threat. The Typhoons at Coningsby are too far north as it is; a 9/11 type airplane bumbling across the channel at a thousand feet ot two would be buried in Big Ben long before a Typhoon scarmbled from CGY could get to it. That threat has been demonstrated for real. And let's not forget that we also need to provide total protection for the 2012 Games. Our brilliant MoD answer - move the Typhoons even further north out of harms way. You couldn't make it up. {my bold}

The Typhoons at Conningsby are staying, it is the ones at Leuchars that are moving north to Lossie (by about 15 minutes flying time from their current home - at Typhoon speeds). :rolleyes:

[parkitup]

Leon J

Your arguments are flawed

The Typhoons at Lossie may be better placed at Lossie to deal with Terrorist controlled airliners crossing North Atlantic Track (NAT) routings that normally drop in anywhere from Shannon to Benbecula (depending on the jetstreams).

If this argument is in support of QRA North moving to Lossie then it is flawed. QRA should be positioned to allow best all round defense of our most important/vulnerable assets - it must be assumed that an attack could come from any direction. Lossie is certainly not the best position in this regard.

The escorting of Bears and Blackjacks in our airspace is not just a "Cold War" task. They do not carry IFF that civil ATC agencies can see and cannot be detected by TCAS - how safe would it be to let them "bumble about" undetected in our main trans-atlantic routing areas. Also they are out there for a reason. Either they are collecting SIGINT or supporting their subs that are looking for our subs - how stupid would we be if we did not watch what they are doing in the airspace that we have been assigned more than 12 miles from our coastline!!!

Again a flawed argument as this task is currently carried out from Leuchars without any problems. The terrorist threat is by far the greater threat and we should guard against it.

With regards to the size of Lossie vs Leuchars. In the timeframe we are talking about we do not need a station to host 4 or 5 Sqns. Leuchars can take 3 Sqns and in a few years the GR4 will consolidate at Marham. Our Air Force is shrinking remember. F-35 will be based at Marham post GR4 retirement.

I have not heard a single convincing argument for the retention of Lossie over Leuchars yet. The decision is strategically naive. And please do not roll out the 'Moray would be devastated' argument. The risk of an unguarded 9/11 attack on the central belt far outweighs the economic effects that closing Lossie in 3 or 4 years would have.

The government have made a terrible decision.

[diginagain]

No doubt the Army will be bringing a lot of heavy stuff to Leuchars. Have any of them bothered to look at the roads in and out of the place?

Railway runs right past the camp, just have to reopen the spur that used to run inside the wire. We've moved plenty of heavy stuff on rails before. Simples.

[rhajaramjet]

Thanks, parkitup has the gist of where I'm coming from. Leon J - I suggest that a 9/11 type threat is far less likely to come in via the trans-Atlantic routes (if it did we'd have more than enough warning about it) The problem is far more acute for our capital city, seat of government, head of state, etc, etc. It doesn't need to be a hijacked airliner either - a 'private' twin entering UK airspace from the south would give so little warning time, a CGY jet would never make it in time.
Are you that confident in the capability of our European neighbours to totally guarantee that nothing of the sort could ever launch from their shores that we can leave southern England and our capital city devoid of the sort of protection that New York, Paris, Washington, Brussels, et al have available at just a few minutes notice? I still say that basing policy is a Cold War hangover; saving money has taken priority over logical planning

I wonder what sort of guarantee was given to the IOC about security?

[Winco]

parkitup

LJs arguments are not flawed at all. Typhoons located further north would obviously be better positioned if the threat came from the north. If the threat came from the south, then the QRA South could easily handle it.

The same goes for tracking bears frankly. Whilst Leuchars currently cope without any problems, why do you feel that a jet from Lossie couldn't do just as well?

The fact is that there are pros and cons on both sides, but there is certainly no obvious reason to choose Leuchars over Lossie. In fact, it is probably better to keep Lossie open over Leuchars simply to provide a military base in the north of Scotland, should anyone have a problem and needed to get down quickly. Inverness is short and there's not much else about!

IMHO, the airfield at Leuchars will remain active, and will be opened to allow more civilian traffic to operate from there to keep the 'Swish-Fu**it' golfing brigade happy!

It's sad to see Leuchars go, but at least with the army coming in, its' future is secure.......ish!

Oh, and by the way ezydriver....Scampton IS staying open!

[Lima Juliet]

^^^^What the good Winco said...I agree.:D

[Unchecked]

Does anyone really think a 9/11 style attack is possible nowadays? Just thinking about the layers of security at airports now - that's before the would be kamikaze pilot gets to the armoured/steel (?) door to the cockpit.

I think worrying about where to put our jets in order to intercept that specific threat is a bit narrow-minded.

[diginagain]

I think the IOC may well have been reassured by the promise of a ring of Rapier batteries set up around the East End.

[Dave Angel]

I have not heard a single convincing argument for the retention of Lossie over Leuchars yet.

The same can be said in reverse :=

Unless of course you are an Air Officer needing a round on the Old Course ;)

[Sir George Cayley]

Yes, and what about the BBjs and G6s that drop in for the Open?

Sir George Cayley

[sidewayspeak]

So the Army is going to make Cottesmore a central Hub, much like Catterick....

How sad for all the moaning minnie locals in Stamford and Oakham who will now have to learn to live with the green machine. Snigger snigger. Low flying aircraft will be nothing in comparison to an Army garrison on the rampage. Eng-ger-land Eng-ger-land. :eek::eek:

[Lima Juliet]

Should make the uniform-wearing haters in Peterborough and Stamford interesting!!!

Fury at uniform ban for troops | RAF | Peterborough | Royal Air Force | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/886753/Fury-at-uniform-ban-for-troops-RAF-Peterborough-Royal-Air-Force.html)

[Kitbag]

From parkitup

F-35 will be based at Marham post GR4 retirement.

Missed that announcement- thought Lossie was to be the one and only?

or is this a flawed statement?

[Rector16]

Kitbag

I agree - never heard an official announcement re Marham and F35, sounds pretty unlikely to me. To be fair to parkitup, this is a rumour site, but he should probably have made it clearer that he was making stuff up!

Given the noise of the JSF, I can't see anyone except the desparate Scots accepting it in their back yards.:uhoh:

[ICBM]

Given the noise of the JSF, I can't see anyone except the desparate Scots accepting it in their back yards.

Two points:

1 - F-35C is no louder than an F-18/GR4 and you assume that the norm will be for F-35C to conduct an afterburning take-off which it may not need to do for routine training. Don't assume to know these things when you don't (I refer you to the term Sciolist)

2 - Don't be so damned prejudiced! Your inference that Scots are desperate and more likely to 'put up' with environmental noise through desperation alone is bordering on racist.

Parkitup is wiser than you give him/her credit for.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Once the GR4 dies entirely, it wouldn't surprise me if Marham becomes the new de facto JCA base, now that Lossie's preserved by being a future Typhoon location.

It'll be interesting to see where they put it when the first OEU jets arrive.

[glad rag]

I think the IOC may well have been reassured by the promise of a ring of Rapier batteries set up around the East End.

pointing inwards or outwards??:hmm:

[sidewayspeak]

You mean.. like North Luffenham?

No, nothing like that. Have you been to an Army Garrison Town - like Catterick. God awful places, and always full of trouble at night.

[Rector16]

ICBM

I thank you for your comments - they make some interesting assumptions about me and parkitup and some interesting points about yourself!

I was of course part of the decision-making process that decided on Lossie for JCA a few years ago - so the noise footprint issue was of great interest and was closely studied by all concerned. I presume that you are thinking of the potential for changes to that footprint now that the CTOL/STOVL decision has been made (finally....). Your reference to burner T/Os is interesting though since the key determinant for noise was always expected to be the circuit - especially for the STOVL type (which is now changed etc etc).

Desperate Scots (ggod spot on the spooling mitsake - must beat the typing pool harder!) seems to be pretty well backed up by their moaning over the past months about 56%, 72%, 2 out of 3 bases closing, it's not fair, wah wah wah, independence, Scottish AF, boo hoo, etc etc. Pointing out that desperate people are desperate is about as racist as pointing out that RN Harrier folks are sad!

As for parkitup - he means well and I like his style; long may he fly safe:ok:

[Squirrel 41]

Diginagain thought

Railway runs right past the camp, just have to reopen the spur that used to run inside the wire. We've moved plenty of heavy stuff on rails before. Simples.

Sadly not quite that simples - the gym is in the way, but it would be possible to find another way through the buildings. All depends on intent. I presume the RE unit that's been at Leu for ages will stay? Always a nice bunch during my time there.

S41

[diginagain]

Sadly not quite that simples - the gym is in the way, but it would be possible to find another way through the buildings. All depends on intent. I presume the RE unit that's been at Leu for ages will stay? Always a nice bunch during my time there.

I'm sure the Territorials of 71 Eng Regt would be more than happy to remove the obstruction. How hard is it to drive a JCB?

[serf]

I suppose the Army could move an AAC Regiment to Leuchars, thay have been there before.

[Clever Techy]

Rector16

I was of course part of the decision-making process that decided on Lossie for JCA a few years ago

Aha...so a middle to senior ranking professional then....?

Desperate Scots (ggod spot on the spooling mitsake - must beat the typing pool harder!) seems to be pretty well backed up by their moaning over the past months about 56%, 72%, 2 out of 3 bases closing, it's not fair, wah wah wah, independence, Scottish AF, boo hoo, etc etc.

Or perhaps not....???

Been to Elgin lately? I think you'll find that the driving force behind the 'Save Lossie'
campaign was the local business community...not unnaturally. As with all campaigns like this they gain followers as momentum builds.

Have a listen to the accents of the staff and proprietors in the vast majority of small and medium local businesses. Not many Scots accents there. Many of the local businesses are ex service folks over the past 35 years, many from south of the tartan tammy line who liked the local area and decided to settle there.

If you were to conduct a straw poll of the indigenous population you may find that the Scots to which you refer are not as desperate as you seem to think.

So in conclusion..... racist? No I don't think so....bigoted ? Just a tad methinks.

CT

[Chicken Leg]

Railway runs right past the camp, just have to reopen the spur that used to run inside the wire. We've moved plenty of heavy stuff on rails before. Simples.

Sadly not quite that simples - the gym is in the way, but it would be possible to find another way through the buildings. All depends on intent. I presume the RE unit that's been at Leu for ages will stay? Always a nice bunch during my time there

I'm sure the Territorials of 71 Eng Regt would be more than happy to remove the obstruction. How hard is it to drive a JCB?

Although the gym in a crab station won't be the busiest of buildings, I'm sure the future pongo's won't want the JCB to be let loose on it!

[rab-k]

I was of course part of the decision-making process that decided on Lossie for JCA a few years agoGood grief. To contemplate my taxes going towards the salary of such individuals is depressing in the extreme...

[diginagain]

Although the gym in a crab station won't be the busiest of buildings, I'm sure the future pongo's won't want the JCB to be let loose on it!
Only need a portal at each end and a length of track. I do admit, in service, it may pose a problem for the Gym Queens, but that's all part of the fun. "Round my beautiful body, GO!" :yuk:

[ghostnav]

Posted by rahjaramjet Are you that confident in the capability of our European neighbours to totally guarantee that nothing of the sort could ever launch from their shores that we can leave southern England and our capital city devoid of the sort of protection that New York, Paris, Washington, Brussels, et al have available at just a few minutes notice?

In short - yes! Rather arrogant to think not really. Oh - and Brussels is in one of those European neighbour countries you refer to!!

[Al R]

The king is dead.. long live the king!! Army welcomed with open, local arms (well, by the landlords at least!!)

Army to move into RAF Cottesmore in 2013 - Local - Rutland Times (http://www.rutland-times.co.uk/news/local/army_to_move_into_raf_cottesmore_in_2013_1_2981958)

Spokesman Tony Walsh said the site may not be fully vacated by then, as the housing may still be in use.

That'll end in tears.. ;)

[NutherA2]

This e-petition is being launched at Leuchars today.

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/8372/ (https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/8372/signature/new)

[pr00ne]

NutherA2,



Why?

[NutherA2]

pr00ne

Speaking as a former Fighting Cock FJ Pilot........why not?