ATPL exams now or post Apr 12?

[BobbyT]

Ok, my dilemma is this. I can't fit in or afford to complete the 14 exams AND the flying skill test and IRT by Apr 12.
I have ELCs so I'm after advice on whether I should start the exams now so I can 'dip' into 1 yrs ELCS this year and use the further 2 'dips' once they sort out the system post Apr 12 for the flying part (I hope the rumour that there's a team at 22GP working on this is true!) I have over 2000 hrs total but only 500 capt's hrs on C17.
My worry is that I sit a load of exams this year, spending lots of time and money, only to find that they are not valid under the new system come next year.
So in short, do I sit the exams this year or call the whole thing off until the system sorts itself out some time in 2012, fingers crossed?
Any advice or news on the 22GP teams efforts would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers

[VinRouge]

There are sylabus changes. Contact Bristol GS - I spoke to them about this 2 months ago, unfortunately AESA could not confirm any sylabus.THeir best guess at the time was the sylabus change would be minimal.

I, like you will be waiting for post April 2012, however, now run the risk of having to also do the skills test and the CRM course despite having over 2000 heavy jet hours and a CAA CRMI tick. Mental.

I hope group realise that by not staffing the Exemptions, they have just turned a retention system into one where every man and his dog is going out and getting their tickets. Whereas people used to stick around till their 1000 hours point (captain) I now see 60-80% of first tourist copilots getting their lincenses in. The net result? Well, once the industry picks up (which it is), as well as overseas military transfers (UAE, India,Qatar) we are going to see a head for the exits pretty darned quick.

[BEagle]

VinRouge - exactly. The whole Military Accreditation scheme was intended to be a recruiting and retention incentive.

Article 9 of the post-comitology version of part-FCL (still to be debated by the European Parliament who, it is clear, do not hold EASA in particularly high regard) states:

The knowledge, experience and skill gained in military service shall be given credit for the relevant requirements of Annex 1 in accordance with the elements of a credit report established by the Member State in consultation with the Agency.

'Shall' is a mandatory requirement. In other words, the UK will be required under EU law to facilitate this accreditation. The 'credit report' is the item which 22Gp and the CAA must agree upon; it is vital that this report is generous as, if it isn't, the accreditation won't be worth people staying around for.

Historically the RAF has been far too conservative with regard to military knowledge, experience and skill accreditation, so it behoves 22Gp to buck that trend if they expect anyone to stick around.....

[gashman]

What are the standing agreements in other soon-to-be EASA countries? Aren't there some countries which issue an ATPL to their pilots early on in their careers as they have to fly in controlled "civilian" airspace as part of our jobs anyway? If we have a joint rule for all countries, how is that going to work? I think Dutch, Danish, Spanish and French pilots all have MUCH simpler and cheaper routes to a civilian career than we do in the UK. If the path change becomes harder for us in the UK, and our european brethren have to abide by the same changes, they are going to have a fit.

Could this actually be a change for the better for an RAF pilot, with easier transitions for us all?

Even so, I'm ploughing through Bristol Ground School at the moment!

[BEagle]

Other Member States have varying levels of training (theoretical and flying) for their military pilots. Some issue military pilot licences, others do not. Hence EASA part-FCL states that application for accreditation will have to be made to the Member State in which military training took place.

Of all the present CAA requirements, the one to me which seems totally illogical is the requirement for some CAA IRE to 'view' an IR. Which is daft; the military IR privileges (as far as non-limited Green IRs are concerned) are identical to civil IR privileges and should be accepted without any further requirements.

[BobbyT]

Thanks for replies, but, still not sure whether to start the whole exam process now or later. Its a shame that after over 10 years military flying all over the world I need to sit 14 exams to prove I can fly safely in the airways!

[BEagle]

I hope that someone makes that point to Dead Dog's team who I gather (I may be wrong) are looking at this issue?

[rathebelucky]

BobbyT, are you sure that you need to do all 14 exams? If you have been flying 10 years you must be eligible for some exemptions. If so get cracking, the door is closing fairly soon. The ever helpful guys (girls) at Bristol should be able to see you in the right direction. They put me on the right track. 2000 inc 500 Capt sounds like a healthy chunk of military bridging package.

[Dr Schlong]

Assuming no snags en route, what's a typical time scale to get the bridging package (including IRT) done? (ie If a chap has not started by x date then he won't be finished by Apr 12.)

Also, does anyone have any gen from 22 Gp on their progress (or lack of!)?

[VinRouge]

Dont know but it might be worth an email.

[BobbyT]

Rathebelucky, you'd like to think so but the clincher is 1000 pilot in command. Without that there is no short cut, you have to do all the exams, if you've got 1000+ Capt hrs all you have to do is 1 Air Law exam and the IRT and skill test. It'd take me 18 mths to 2 yrs to get the extra 500 I need so not going to happen by Apr 12 I'm afraid.
The other major player is the fact it costs around £10k all in if you take accom etc in to account. I'd prefer 3 £2k dips in to ELCs plus the rest contributed by myself rather than spend 10k this year that I don't have, family commitments etc.
I think a lot of people would like to know where the 22GP team are so we can make educated decisions, but I've heard nothing up to now.
Does anyone have any info on who is on the said 22GP Team?
Cheers all.

[Thomas coupling]

The bridging scheme is acceptable to EASA (ish), the problem isn't about abolishing it by 2012 or reducing it to a shortened less advantageous version; it's about workload.

EASA have told the CAA they 'can' retain some sort of bridging scheme for mil pilots provided they produce a suitable business case to support it. The CAA have told the EU they don't have the staff, nor the time to fit this relatively unimportant task ..in. You will lose all your exemptions for this reason alone and no amount of lobbying by 22Gp team or anyone else will speed this process up. WHO is going to staff it? The CAA domain is tiny.

[BEagle]

Actually, according to the CAA, they told the MoD that they didn't have the staff... The EC wouldn't give a monkey's.

However, it will be an obligation under EU law for the 'Member State' to come up with the conversion report, so that's what 22Gp need to sort - WITHOUT being overly cautious or niggardly.

[High_Expect]

and relax..... It's in hand. There was a briefing note from DFT released yesterday.

part of it copied below.

• It is our intent that the replacement for the QSP will fully acknowledge the skills, training and experience gained by military aircrew. Furthermore it will be presented in a format that is easily understood and amended. The new scheme will have a future proofing management system to allow ease of amendment as regulations and our own training systems evolve.

[wokkamate]

I am thinking about doing my ATPL(H) fairly soon, does anyone know anything more about possible changes in April 2012? Not sure if I should wait to see if the changes are for the better or get the exams out of the way now.....

Anyone, Beuller, Beuller......:confused:

[gashman]

Anyone know the details of the aeronautical information circular W73/2011? If so can you help, or tell me how I can get hold of a copy please?

It has the answer to the predicament that if I were to finish my groundschool exams but not the rest of the ATPL course before 1st April, what happens to my exam passes? Do I get credit for them? Is the flying phase likely to be longer? CAA website just points me in the direction of the AIC, but doesn't host the doc on its site. A search on pprune didn't help either.

Big worry is that I am not going to have the time to finish the second set of 7 exams and get my flying in by April (I can't get the leave anyway ;-).

I assume 22 Gp are going to release some random surprise on the 31st March.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Uncle Ginsters]

BobbyT,
There's also the FW(Non-ME) scheme which may apply depending on your background....only 4 exams there, i believe.

[rata2e]

AIC's form part of the UK AIP, all available here NATS | AIS (http://www.ais.org.uk)

[Foxee]

Because it is the end of the Military Bridging as we know it...

"The current scheme provides for JAR-FCL licences to be granted on the basis of credit for military flying. The last day upon which the CAA will be able to grant a new JAR-FCL licence on the basis of military flying, including any of the partial credits currently available, will be 7th April 2012. The new scheme must be in place before a Part-FCL (EASA) licence may be granted on the basis of credit for military flying."

[talking horse]

It is about 7 years now since I went through military bridging, but here are some thoughts anyway...

Gashman:
My understanding is that many of our european friends changed their military flying training syllabuses to make them JAR compliant. I know the French equivalent of DHFS at Toulouse did. Therefore military bridging isn't really an issue for them at the moment, and I suspect that they will just tweak them to make them EUOps compliant.

bobbyT:
In terms of costs for accommodation, bear in mind that if you can use resettlement for the training you should get service accommodation as you are on duty. I did my CPL/IR at Exeter and stayed in the Wardroom Mess at RM Lympstone, which kept my boss happy too as it didn't hit his T&S budget. Only snag was having to put on a jacket and tie for breakfast, but they were very welcoming to that strange crab over there...

wokkamate:
When the JAR military bridging was worked out, the RAF staffed the fixed-wing part, and the RN staffed the rotary-wing part. One snag with this was that RN RW IRs were non-procedural, so they didn't even try to get recognition for a RW IR. However, I believe that an RAF RW IR should be fully compliant with a JAR one (with, perhaps, the exception of the Puma due to lack of an ADF). Indeed, I recall meeting one of Westland's TPs doing his IRT in a Merlin sim at Benson with a CAA examiner watching.

I don't know how it is being worked out this time, but it may be worth asking questions. RW IRs don't come cheap.

My experience was that Bristol Groundschool were very good at driving the CAA and getting them to accept 'interim' arrangements. They would be a good starting point.

[High_Expect]

Perhaps we should have asked Alex at BG to staff the whole thing..... One thing is for certain the communication would have been better and people won't be asking all these questions.

[VinRouge]

Perhaps someone should write a DIN that aircrew might actually read.:hmm:

[VinRouge]

Something along the lines of what is happening in respect to military licensing, when can we expect a new scheme to be in effect and what are the expected qualification criteria compared to the old one? Not to sound unappreciative of all the work going on at the moment to try and sort the issues generated by EASA licensing, but a little communication would go a long way for a lot of people! :ok:

[High_Expect]

What's a DIN? :ok: Maybe they'll issue another one of the A4 briefs that was well like down with the kids in yoof speak init.

[skaterboi]

At the risk of dragging up more questions than answers in this thread, I'd be grateful for some advice on how to proceed with my current situation.

I've completed 1520 hrs P1 of which 890 are P1 Captain (mix of RW and ME) as of now. I was given dispensation by the CAA back in the Spring to start the Bridging Package which I've now completed by passing the Bridging Exam and the 4x CAA exams. I've also completed my Class 1 medical.

However I've now been placed in a ground tour and although taking my IR on my old ME ac type would work, I am not likely to achieve the 110 hrs P1 Captain on the AEF before April 2012 to bring me up to the required 1000 hrs P1.

What, if any options are open to me at this point? Have I effectively wasted my time and energy thus far?

TIA

[nice castle]

Not really, but it depends what you're aiming at. If it's an ATPL(A) to get into the RHS of an airliner, then speak to Brian at Exeter and sort out your IR on a twin, add that and a MCCC (which you probably already have given your background) and you're done. Costs wise, it was 15 hrs flying for me, a rotary mate with a procedural rating. Not sure about the 1000 hrs P1 bit though, so sorry I couldn't help you out more. Can you hours build in Florida for a bit? 2 weeks, 70 hours, a few grand?

[gashman]

How come the EASA change-over date for licences has been slipped to July, yet the mil bridging hasn't? Is it a double standards thing? I could do with those extra few months having spent 3 months away this summer which has scuppered my ATPL training timeline.

Even for those doing all of the exams, once the mil exemptions go, the ease and cost of getting an ME IR is likely to change. I spoke to the CAA today and they advised me that post 8th April, your mil flying won't allow your chosen training provider to cut hours out of the full ME IR course. I think that means a course goes from about 15hrs to about 40hrs. Which is less than ideal and bonkers that our experience flying in cloud won't count because the tail number of our jet wasn't on the civilian register.

To be fair, the nice lady at the CAA didn't know what was likely to happen either as 22 Gp haven't done much and EASA keep changing the rules. I do have the email of the policy department though if anyone wishes to get in touch with them too. They are the peeps who decide on extensions etc and may be able to lobby EASA for a bit of flex given the goat created by 22 Gp.

Come on 22 Gp, tell us what is going on. With the pension fiasco, we need this carrot if we are going to keep attracting high quality people to fly in the RAF.

[drugsdontwork]

Any information on how the mil bridging package will be replaced, if at all, would be welcome. Somebody out there must have an idea?

I reckon I just have enough time to get it cracked if I start now, but domestics make it a less than ideal option.

Anyone?

[jpboy]

Gashman,

When I walked into the Careers Office I knew nothing of the military accreditation scheme. I don't see it being any different now to those wishing to fly HM jets so I don't see it as a recruiting tool for quality people. I would see it as best practise for a Service wishing to do the best for it's people as they leave.

For the EASA Jul slip explanation read Beagle's response #19 here;
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/467357-military-irt-validity-under-easa.html

Are the CAA responsible for implementing or formulating national policy? Discuss

Did 22 Gp create this goat? Rather depends on what direction they were given by the chain of command. With wars being fought and manpower being reduced I don't think it would have been on CAS priority list, do you?

22 Gp are as manpower hit as the rest of the mil. Whatever priority you and I may believe this issue has it is not on the radar of the big chiefs. There is not a huge team beavering away on this, read 1x Sqn Ldr and 1x Flt Lt both posted in late to this stuation.

In civvie speak somebody should have taken ownership of this situation 2 years ago, allocated adequate resources to resolving the issue by working hand in hand with the CAA as the euro goat developed and communicated down the chain to those impinged, thus allowing individuals to plan their lives accordingly. I believe it is called Transformational Leadership and should be practised not preached.

As unfair as this situation is, I believe it equally unfair to blame the 2 fellas shoved into this dogs dinner at the last minute.

[wazz'n'zoom]

Got to agree totally As unfair as this situation is, I believe it equally unfair to blame the 2 fellas shoved into this dogs dinner at the last minute..

The Flt Lt is open, honest and very proactive despite his huge task at hand.:ok: He also speaks to the CAA policy dept direct on licensing issues.
Even though he is from the FW side he is doing all he can to secure ME & RW terms.

As it stands, at the end of the LASORS, Section D, Pg 69, RW QSP flow chart you will/can get stuck one thing short of the ATPL(H). You must be JAR flying current (easy for current a/crew), and you need a Multi-Pilot(MP) Type Rating and IR; Almost impossible if you are post leaving MOD or flying a Single-Pilot certified cab. In the UK the AOC MP TR operators are ie. Harrods (S92) or a Nth Sea operator (EC225) or try to find/work for an AOC holder with an exemption letter from the CAA to operate a single pilot IFR a/c in the MP role ie. Starspeed/JCB. What's the chance of getting all that done by 7 Apr 2012?


Who will take ownership of this challis and see it through to a successful conclusion? AOC 22 Gp, DFT, CAA or the poor Flt Lt at Abbey Wood in the CAA liaison role!

[VinRouge]

are they looking for any assistance from elsewhere? if people could assist as a station secpndary duty surely all of the paperwork could be monstered in a shorter period.

Recent Flight International article on training directly quoted that fewer ex military into the airlines is seen as a bad thing as levels of resiience and handling skills for those trained through the training schools is so much worse....

[drugsdontwork]

Where would one find the team looking into mil bridging for a quick update of progress to date?

[wazz'n'zoom]

Abbey Wood. 'SO2 and SO3 CAA liaison' is their title. Use the intranet on-line search/ EADS directory.

[Knockando1997]

Newsletter released from 22 Gp today! Did a bit of digging. The Flt Lt is working flat out on this - massive task but progress is being made. 22 Gp have many other tasks and priorities currently: 3 Reds accidents in 18 months with 2 tragic fatalities, Defence Review aftermath, MFTS, implosion of the flying training system etc etc.

[VinRouge]

As I asked earlier, is there any potential to "share" the workload to chaps on the frontline? Plenty of first tourists knocking about wanting a decent secondary duty to widen the CV! :E (and not to mention, get their licenses in the bag).