Airline Pilot Jobs in Australia now and in the future

[QJB]

Hello all,

I am looking for a little bit of advice. I am on the verge of getting out of general aviation into IT, basically for the money and lifestyle. At the moment I'm trying to get an idea of what a future airline career would be like in Australia. In particular I can't find much specific information on what pilots for jetstar and virgin get paid these days, and more importantly what they will be getting 10 years from now. I am concerned with the growing trend of airlines moving toward cadet pilot programs; self funded ratings etc and the general reduction of safety and wage requirements in order to lower their bottom line.

Therefore I respectfully ask that if you are in the know when it comes to working for airlines in Australia that you could PM some details of how you find working for your employer and if you could give me a general idea of the salary one might expect in the future.

Let me also concede from the outset that maybe the information is out there somewhere in the ether but I am really looking for some informed, honest and up to date opinions of those who know what they are talking about. Also I hope this won't make me a target for those heroes telling me that it's not about the money and that I shouldn't care what I get paid if I get to fly awesome aircraft and wear a cool uniform, because I think that is total crap. I am already slogging it out in GA for a pittance but have read one too many articles and listened to one to many airline captain tell me that the industry is going downhill fast that I am trying to make an informed decision and if necessary, career change.

Many thanks,

J

[mattyj]

..see ya...wish I did an IT degree :{

[RFN]

To give you a heads up, I'm not even close to making the same money as I was 10 years ago (essentially doing the same job, different airline) and I'm working a lot bloody harder for it too...

In ten years from now, with the the way its going, I'll be on less money than I'm on now...Get the drift??

G/A to I.T ? I wish I'd been that smart 25 years ago!!!

[flying_a_nix_box]

I'm in IT and after 10 years I'd make more $$ as Plumber. But unfortunately I like working on big iron computer systems (the A380's and 747's of the computer world) a little too much.......

IT in Australia is in a constant downward slope as far and wages and conditions are concerned. It's quite hard to compete with 10k per year Indians when the only factor that seems relevant to management is cost. If your concerned about outsourcing and offshoring in the airline industry just look at what has happened to IT over the last 5-10 years. At least as a Pilot you have legislated maximum working hours etc, I've done 20 hour straight stints with only the odd 10 min meal/toilet break only to get rang by work 30mins after hitting the sack......you pay for that for weeks afterwards.........

[eocvictim]

If you want to know where we're headed, just look to the public. They still think we're over paid and underworked. I suggest reading the comment by the public in the article on the Jetstar thread. Makes you sick to be hacked down by tall poppy because of a perception. I still get told I don't work for a living by guys now earning more than me, working less than me.

The only thing I will add is to have a look at Ireland's property boom. Some similarities. Uncertain times for all Australian's, at least we know what the score is.

[KRUSTY 34]

Ironic isn't it. Pilots lamenting they didn't pursue a careeer in IT, and IT people telling us about their downward spiral in pay and conditions, presumably because too many people wanting to work in IT!

The constant in all of this, is the rape of the middle class by unscupulous, bonus driven mangement, and facilitated by their lackies: HR!

Michael Moore's Capitalism : A love story, explores the death of the Middle Class (yes you and me) by the rampant greed of the corporate entity. Destroy the middle class and there can only be one final outcome: REVOLUTION!

Oh well, at least we'll know who'll be first against the wall when that time comes. Eh Comrade! ;)

[fmcinop]

I spent many years in IT to pay for my flying lessons. I loved my job and would still be doing it now if I was unable to fly.

I am now a wide body captain earning far more than the IT guys I used to work for. I love my job, love flying and I would not change a thing.

If you love flying, go for it. Stop listening to the these glass half full guys and do what you want to do.

I have never been told I am overpaid, except my management, but I got that in IT years ago as well. This industry is full of whinging whining individuals who complain and complain, but guess what... They are still here. If it's so bad, why have they not left to go into IT?

If you really love flying, stick with it. If you don't, go back to IT. Maybe the days of the really big bucks are gone, but I am happy with wIth what I get for what I do, i stil love going to work and love flying and that's after over 20 years of doing it.

We have seen the industry expand and then halt many times before so while recruiting may have slowed in the short term, it will sure as hell kick off again very soon.

You do what you feel is right and stop listening to negative comments.

[an3_bolt]

You do what you feel is right and stop listening to negative comments.

That sounds fine - but you do have to be realistic about what the current management for the various airlines have done to the industry.

It is no longer a "career" - it is now a job.

I fly for one of our "leading" airlines. The time is fast arriving where I will have to leave Australia and work overseas. Most probably have to permanently relocate and take the family with me, due to the double tax grab of Australia if you work overseas and have the family still here.

Ironic:

Less hours flying now = less pay - fast approaching the point where I will have to sell the house. That leaves the option of either buying or renting an apartment and sending the wife back to work another job or leaving the airline I work for.

If I leave and commute from an overseas contract - I will be in the same financial position due to the ATO assessing me as a resident and taking another tax chunk apart from the country that I would be working in.

If the current situation continues - the only viable option is to sell up and leave Australia completely and permanently. Pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me. Put my heart and soul into it............. but as you do, manage the situation and "keep on keeping on". At least the kids got to spend a lot of time with their grandparents over the past several years.

I am at the upper end of the industry - I can only imagine that the guys and girls doing the turboprops would be doing it tough on all accounts. Imagine trying to raise a family on a turboprop wage and conditions? Hard going - take my hat off to you people bouncing around in the icing levels, non-preciosion approaches and trying to pay the bills!

You should ask the wife what she thinks (assuming there is a significant other)......

Would I do it all over again - maybe (I don't know) - but i would NOT entertain Australia as viable option for employment that gives a "return for investment in both money and time spent" in developing your own skills.

[peterc005]

I've worked in IT for 25 years.

If you have a hot IT specialization and work as a contractor, you might make great money. Maybe 100k to 200k a year. Certainly working more than 40 hours a week.

The problem with IT is that it changes quickly and is fad-driven. You may have a hot specialization and make good money for a couple of years, and then be unemployed for a couple of years.

A while ago I hopped into a taxi and it was being driven by an old mate who used to be a SAP consultant. Making 250k a year, unemployed for 12 months, then driving taxis.

Most people in IT make average wages, maybe $50k to $70k a year, $40k for a graduate.

Most flight instructors would earn less than IT people. Most IT people would earn less than established airline pilots ($150k).

Pilots love to whinge and moan. Find a job you'd love to do and go for it.

[fmcinop]

An3 bolt. Not sure who you work for or what rank you hold, but for me I have a career not just a job. My salary has gone up 90k in the past 10 years, same rank. I live and work in oz, have a nice house, 2 nice cars, take the family on holidays each year, own numerous investment properties and live a great life on what I get paid. Everything I have I have because I worked hard for it.

I can hardly cry poor! I invest wisely and think of my future always as far as money is concerned. That is why I invest. I still buy the big screen tv's and have all the toys. Maybe your not on the same money as me?? But all the guys I know (captains) including narrow body are on over $200k which is nothing to sneeze about. I have mates on the 737 nominating to work hard earning $250k. There is money there if you want it. Sure 15 years ago guys might have been earning more but you can't tell me it struggle street on that sort of money now? Sure there are guys in HR, PR, and some in the mines earning more, but who gives a rats. I live comfortably, can provide well for my family and can save for the future. There will always be someone earning more. If you want to complain, please explain how a low IQ footballer can earn what they do.

I started in GA, like most worked my ring off and lived in poverty for years before getting a break in an airline.

[mrdeux]

fmcinop....you're simply explaining all the reasons that management are going to get rid of you.

Certainly, for anyone thinking of starting out now, it will NEVER be like that.

[Mr. Hat]

I just wish I did a trade instead of my stupid Aviation degree.

Single biggest education mistake I've made. I've painted myself into a corner.

If had done a trade I'd have that to fall back onto. Right now I've got nothing.

[an3_bolt]

But all the guys I know (captains) including narrow body are on over $200k which is nothing to sneeze about. I have mates on the 737 nominating to work hard earning $250k. There is money there if you want it.

Not cry poor dude. Just the facts for me. My pay is dropping.

Probably better off looking at the FO wages on the maggott. That would be more realistic - going to be a very very long time to command on a maggott or anything else for someone joining these days. So unfortunately your mates rates for maggotts probably a very long way off for newbies. Great to be on the pay you mention .... but that is if your number is up to get there and it is going to be a very very very long time as an SO/FO before you get that chance.

I started in GA, like most worked my ring off and lived in poverty for years before getting a break in an airline.

same same dude. NT, PNG etc etc. Enjoyed it all. But the time to promotion and relative salaries of such do not give an appropriate return on investment in my view.

But everyones thoughts are different. Everyones circumstances are different. That is why it is always a personal decision.

Cheers

[Danger Banglington]

If had done a trade I'd have that to fall back onto. Right now I've got nothing.

Mr Hat - Get yourself a Security licence. I have been working in the security industry for 6 years. its payed for my cpl course. Depends on what state or territory you are in, but it will most probably be a 2 week course. Never a shortage of work if your prepared to work weekends and nights. Most companies ive worked for didnt require a resume' or an interview. ring them up, if u have a licence, start that weekend. :ok:

[A37575]

I have mates on the 737 nominating to work hard earning $250k

Bully for you - because it's certainly not one of the JetStar franchised LLC's in Asia who pay their captains barely $110,000 a year for 90 hours a month and generously supply one free bottle of water per day as in-flight rations.. :ugh:

[Xcel]

CPI and cost of living go up yet wages still like an elevator - "bing" Going down... Not the best of choices.

But I'm still here. Must be something appealing if we all complain so loudly yet are still here...

Choice over again and I would be surrounded by ocean rather than clouds...

[tarmac12]

I do para drops on the weekend to build hours and during the week I drive a truck. Its through an agency and i do 6am to 4.30pm mon to fri, no weekends and as much O/T as i want. I get offered training courses for free such as TAFE diplomas and licence upgrades. I gross around 70k a year. Thats for an outlay of between 500 to 1000 dollars depending on where you get your licence. My contract company cant get drivers so the pay goes up to keep the ones they have. I dont even have to buy a uniform, its free!

How many turbo prop FO's get 70k for mon to fri?

[MikeTangoEcho]

tarmac12,

Good on you, makin' it work for ya. Even a grand for a truck licence is cheap considering a pilot licence. Unreal. Makes ya wonder hey.. :rolleyes:

[Icarus2001]

How many turbo prop FO's get 70k for mon to fri?

I checked with mates at Skippers and their Metro, Bras and Dash 8 Captains would all exceed that. Mostly Mon-Fri as well.

[mustman]

I checked with mates at Skippers and their Metro, Bras and Dash 8 Captains would all exceed that. Mostly Mon-Fri as well.

But as soon as you get you licence you do don;t go straight to CAPT in a regional do you?

I think the point is you spend only $1000 for your licence and move straight to 70k mon-fri.

[Xcel]

Yes Tarmac...

And how much do you get for your weekend flying?? I'm glad you earn good money during the week but I sure hope that's not "private ops- oh we can't pay you"... That at the end of the day is the reason the original poster needs to ask such a question.

The real reason the future of aviation is bleak - because there is always someone willing to do it cheaper... The reason why if I had a choice of a Job to fall back on, it would be one with the best union and most cohesive employees so we don't get screwed!!

[eocvictim]

Plumber, they all think they're the best, and they all charge accordingly. Real-estate agents, $80kish/an after a 6 week course. Coles floor manager, 70k/an, store manage $120k/an. Similar for Spotlight (yes the haberdashery store). $70-100k is very achievable for an unqualified individual today, the only people who don't are doing what they want, following a passion or the sheep working under the other unqualified at Coles etc.

I learnt a long time ago that a qualification is not required to be, "Joe Bloggs: millionaire". My first day working at the local servo taught me that; the CEO worked his way up from a "console operator" with nothing to back him.

[C441]

If ya love flying anything, just do it.

I would suggest there is one common thread amongst the majority of visitors to this forum. They love being in the driver's seat of a flying machine. That the reward outside the cerebral seems to be diminishing, the thrill never does.

Wanna fly. Just do it because you love it. Don't do it for significant financial reward; that benefit is no longer relevant.

[jibba_jabba]

Dont you mean if you love flying just do it because the financial rewards are not there until many years down the track! :-)

You have to balance lifestyle and work. its easy to say just do it, and that is correct while you are still 'chasing the dream' and trying to get into RPT of some sort.

But when you are there and you get shafted its a bit of a buzzkill. I love flying, thats why I have put up the the poo for so long. But even now I am finding myself wanting to vacate the career simply for the fact that the rewards of the "fun job" just are not there (I dare say its the airline I work for!). And by that I mean not only financially but also mentally.

Having a career that is spat on by middle management who get paid more than you is just plain boring to me now. But dont let my cynasyim put you off. I will still fly in one way or another even if I do leave the full time flying circus...... so that should say something to you :):ok:

[Carlos169]

fmcinop,

I currently work in IT and was thinking of fulfilling my aviation desires even if just in the form of a PPL for now.

Could you please PM me how you went about it?

[jasonpb]

This has been an interesting read as it's something I have struggled with over the years and never really come to terms with.

I started in aviation aged 15. Most of the people I attended uni with struggled to pay for their flying lessons and after obtaining their CPL ended up working at coles/bunnings or in other industries.

I ended up having a car accident on my way home from the airport one day and lost my medical for a while (aged 21), this pushed me into IT which was always going to be my second career choice if anything did ever go wrong.

I have never had an issue obtaining work or earning up and over 160k a year in this industry. As was mentioned previously you just need to specialise in one area, i.e. storage. If you're willing to put in the work/effort you can earn substantially more.

I now work for the government on an ok wage 100k+ with long service due every seven years, four weeks holidays a year, 3-5% pay rise each year and a fair few other perks, not to mention I only have to work 7.5 hours a day mon-fri. It makes up the for the 60k+ less a year.

I attempted getting back into aviation over the last two years but couldn't fully commit to it. The biggest hurdle for me was the lack of financial stability, and the limited job prospects. Starting from scratch again isn't an easy task especially when it means earning next to nothing for a very long time.

Of course I still go out flying sometimes but I do regret not being able to fly big jets, it's something I think I will always regret!

[Mr. Hat]

It's definitely a lot of sacrifice becoming a full time pilot jasonpb. I'm not sure many of us would go thru it again or would choose this career if we wound back the clock.

[BombsGone]

Mr Hat there lies the problem with the current free fall of terms and conditions. The talent pool will be much shallower in the future as people weigh up the relative merits of other career options. Management are relying on the pool of people who have already committed too far to pull out, or cadets with no experience. I don't think either will be sustainable in the long run, there will always be some talent around but the average is going to fall; a long way. I enjoy flying, but I would take a decently paid comfortable desk over most of whats on offer today.

[kalavo]

Supply vs Demand

Still in touch with enough GA operators to know there are significantly less resumes appearing on the desk than 2, 5 or 10 years ago. Can you jump in to any C210 with a bare CPL and 200 hours and expect to be matching 10 year IT salaries? Of course not! But the pay and conditions are about what you'd expect for an entry level helpdesk job.

Is there a demand for 3000hr pilots on twin engine turboprops? Absolutely! And the pay is about what you'd expect for a CCNA/MCSE with a few years experience (ie completely dependent on the company and what you're able to negotiate, just like IT, some companies think your MCSE is worth $38k and pair you with someone else with an MCSE but worked for them for longer, some think it's worth $110k and give you complete control).

At the end of the day people work for what they think they are worth. Most of the pilots I know tend to migrate towards larger companies and let the company tell them what they think they are worth. Most people I know in IT have a good idea of what's around and stay where ever they are happiest. Most of your bargaining power with salary comes when you first walk in the door. I've seen IT guys jump from contract to contract negotiating $10k extra each time they change jobs, while others with a better skill set stay in the same company and only manage to negotiate $2-3k a year. I've seen a number of pilots on cabin class piston twins take a $10k pay cut to move back to the east coast on turboprops "I just want to be close to family", only to see pilots with the same hours move to the exact same city with a jet job 2 months later taking a $10k payrise as an SO, some have stayed on another six months and got an FO job (again, same city!) with a $40k payrise.

There's no secrets in Aviation, there's more than a few threads on pprune with first year base salaries for pretty much every company in Australia operating anything with a turbine. After you've put in the hard yards and ticked all the boxes, if you think you're worth $40k back on the east coast, thats the job you'll accept, if you think you're worth $90k and wait until that job comes up, that's what you'll get. If people stop signing up for $40k, that particular operator is either going to have to cut routes or start paying more (or most likely, a combination of both).

At the end of the day the "average pilot" is going to stop things spiralling out of control in either direction - not everyone is going to sit and wait for Qantas to start employing again, not everyone is going to jump at the first turboprop job offering $40k. Congratulations guys, you now realise collectively you have complete control over your salary.

[BombsGone]

"But the pay and conditions are about what you'd expect for an entry level helpdesk job." Yep.

That may have been acceptable when there were high paying jobs down the road, the jobs that are now evaporating. But 35k is the absolute bottom for a graduate job with the average 55k and up as a start point. The graduate would also have a HECS debt of around 15k as opposed to 80-140k for a CPL with all the fruit. Yes I am biasing towards tertiary qualified comparisons but that is the type of person aviation use to attract and will now struggle to.

There will always be people for whom 60-85k with rolling shift work sounds like a good deal. The question is whether the talent pool will be deep enough to avoid problems. I think that it will take 10 years or more for the full affects of the changing market to be visible. Just look at the US experience.

[eocvictim]

National average salary as of this month is $67,000... No specialist field should be accepting this let alone below.

[jibba_jabba]

eocvictim, your right, but unfortunately there is someone who always will, usually those who just leave school and commit to big debt in return for service. I have seen many of these guys go from ignorant management/company loving do anything yes men to a year or two down the track very disappointed with the treatment we get as a "professional". Most of them learn, how can they not in the "race to the bottom" industry.

I have a couple non-aviation interviews lined up in some very rewarding careers not to mention the lifestyle / money but its the value you receive as an employee that really makes you want to stay.

Like a wise man once said to me, "If a company dont respect you then they simply dont pay you!"; and that can mean also in the lifestyle they offer you as well.

Never been able to forget that saying ever since I started in the RPT sector!.... but then again I dont work for Virgin :).... lol

[Mr. Hat]

The problem is that our country has become very comfortable with the zero hull loss and has a excessively confident outlook on the matter.

CEO's/"managers" think that Automation replaces everything and that all you need is anyone just sitting there turning it on/off at 50/0 feet. Character like Bruce Loosecannon have no idea what the job entails and base everything on superficial numbers.

What they don't realise is how many times per day experienced crews are really the last line of defence. They think we just sit there and do nothing.

[flying_a_nix_box]

What they don't realise is how many times per day experienced crews are really the last line of defence. They think we just sit there and do nothing.

Funny......that's the same thing that a lot of IT management think as well!

[Mr. Hat]

We don't THINK it we DO it along with everybody else's job to keep the show on time. We ARE the last line defence.

[Wally Mk2]

There's two things that I believe are tagged with a Commercial pilots license & hence have kept this industry money wise low.
One is that the industry can't afford big bucks at any level other than the high end big bus drivers. Charter at say PA31 level can't afford 80K or so for a pilot as the charter rates to provide that wage would be cost prohibitive & there would be no work for anyone anyway. That 'tag' is un-fixable sadly
Two & this is debatable more a question really is the holder of a CPL & beyond considered a professional such as a Dr ?
You see to gain a CPL where you are available for hire & reward you don't need any formal education other than basic reading & writing skills & enuf money to pay for lessons etc. A Dr for Eg needs to have a higher education well before they get into that field & have the public's respect, pilots don't although I understand that a degree in aviation is now favorable. As an Eg I never finished secondary school bombing out in form 5 or year 11 did a trade & worked my way up to a 'bus' purely 'cause I wanted to fly,money never became the driving force as I was earning far more than I ever could during my way up in another industry (OIL).
The traditional path to the top is dieing.
Aviation as a career has changed, that's pretty obvious to us older ones but to the youngsters whom have the desire/dream to fly as we did all those years ago has nothing to compare it too where we older ones do as we have lived & currently live in the two worlds of an aviation career path.

I'm sure the dream to fly is still there in the hearts of the young but like it or not Cadetship is the way of the future.

Wmk2

[seaskythe]

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the comments, I'm new to aviation, only did my first solo a couple of weeks ago.
For the sake of sharing information, I'm paying over 50k just for my CPL and it may add up to almost 90k for all the ratings including night VFR, MECIR etc, is it normal? was it way cheaper a while back?
Also.. I would greatly appreciate if some of you could tell me what they would've done if they could go back in time to build hours. What's a good way to start this career?
Thanks heaps!!

[07jamradh1]

@fmcinop excuse my curiosity but what airline do you work for and how long have you been flying commercially? :)