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dangermouse
3rd May 2011, 18:43
check this out on AWST

Bin Laden Raid May Have Exposed Stealth Helo | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2011/05/03/awx_05_03_2011_p0-318248.xml&headline=Bin%20Laden%20Raid%20May%20Have%20Exposed%20Stealth %20Helicopter&channel=defense)

'son' of Commanche?

cool......

DM

Geehovah
3rd May 2011, 18:49
Its a tad tricky to make advancing blades stealthy!

ChristopherRobin
3rd May 2011, 19:03
picture of the modified tail-rotor hub of a stealth (-ier) blackhawk
http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/14/8065b635-752f-4a63-ae97-84beaff28a19.Full.jpg

XV277
3rd May 2011, 19:04
a “dishpan” cover over a five-or-six-blade tail rotor

Other than the frisbees, looks like a standard 4 bladed UH-60 tail rotor but with one of the blades bent back, no doubt after hitting something it shouldn't!

VinRouge
3rd May 2011, 19:04
Stealth is the wrong word. Low Observable. You cant eliminate it, but you can reduce it certainly.

advocatusDIABOLI
3rd May 2011, 19:10
No worries Sir, NFF. Good for the next wave.........

Stealth? My Ar$e! Low Flying at Night works. Also, there is that little known tacic of SURPRISE!!!

Advo

Tourist
3rd May 2011, 19:10
That's true of all stealth van rouge

Got to say that it is a very odd looking bit of kit, with it's swept horizontal stabiliser etc

Ewan Whosearmy
3rd May 2011, 20:14
XV

This shot shows clearly that it is five-bladed and that the blades themselves are quite different from those in the H-60 family as a whole.

So, no, I don't agree that it's a standard four-bladed TR.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/josh10524/bl5_1303597a.jpg

ShyTorque
3rd May 2011, 20:16
That's not like the S-70s I flew for four years.

I was quite diligent when doing the pre-flight walk-round but to be fair, it was very dark for some of the flights.

Tashengurt
3rd May 2011, 20:20
I see no reason to think this is any member of the H-60 or S-70 family.
The tail rotor is entirely different with more blades and the fairing.
The horizontal surfaces are forward swept and shorter.
I think it's a newbie!

TheWizard
3rd May 2011, 20:49
Ssshhhh.....PLA 5th LH Regiment - Special (http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/93852-pla-5th-lh-regiment-special-2.html)

http://image.wangchao.net.cn/junshi/1257610489874.jpg

Rakshasa
3rd May 2011, 21:34
Looks like some sort of lowsig S-76 to me... tail rotor hub is on the wrong side though!

Trogger
3rd May 2011, 21:44
No need for stealth - they could have painted them dayglo and festooned them with Xmas lights...


Or disguised them as tall Saudis......

Lonewolf_50
3rd May 2011, 21:49
You have my interest up, as I cannot recognize that lump ... wonder if anyone has the complete picture that came from.

chopper2004
3rd May 2011, 22:15
The Wizard,

Only stealthy low observable helos that IIRC reminds me of 'Stingbat' plastic model Kit by Revell or Hasegawa released in the early 90s with extreme BERP like blades. It been based on the artists impression of proposed Bell Helicopter and the then McDonnell Douglas consortium for the LHX program with NOTAR.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IT826_zpsea150557.jpg

I had read a rumour that there had been a fly off demonstrator somewhere around the Nevada desert from Bell/McDH and the Army decided to go for the Comanche design (which hadnt flown till 96 anyhow).

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/md_bell_lhx_01.jpg

RUCAWO
3rd May 2011, 22:32
Certainly interesting

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/four/article-1382860-0BDF064800000578-430_470x423.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/four/article-1382859-0BE1E40F00000578-506_470x423.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/four/article-1382859-0BE1E4AC00000578-295_470x423.jpg

AR1
3rd May 2011, 22:53
I've been desperately trying to mentally bend the rear of the 'SpeedHawk' to fit the article seen in the picture - other than a 5 bladed tail rotor - and stubby looking blades I cant quite manage it..

Thoughts?

LiveLeak.com - Piasecki X-49A Speedhawk trial flights: Vectored thrust ducted propellor (VTDP)

tartare
4th May 2011, 04:06
That is definitely something new.
The stabilator is not a standard Blackhawk or PaveHawk, nor any other type reportedly used.
There's a weird shield on the underside of the aft of the boom.
And the tail rotor cap is very similar the main rotor hub on the Commanche.

Flyingblind
4th May 2011, 07:48
Ask the PLA, seeing in which Country this event ocurred I would not be suprised if the details of the remains are already being looked over at PLAAF HQ.

Marly Lite
4th May 2011, 09:31
The photo's posted in the Daily Mail suggest a forward sweep to the Stabilizer and a bulbous fairing where the pylon meets the tailboom.

Then again I could have it the wrong way round!

Osama bin Laden dead: Photo of Obama watching the Al Qaeda leader die on live TV | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382859/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Photo-Obama-watching-Al-Qaeda-leader-die-live-TV.html)

Flyingblind
4th May 2011, 10:39
Moderators, perhaps merge this thread with the 'other' thread?

851Pilot
4th May 2011, 11:01
Silent Hawk anyone?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=155097

No idea of provenance mind...

FoxtrotAlpha18
4th May 2011, 11:05
Looks like the beast in question - good pickup. :ok:

AR1
4th May 2011, 11:26
A photoshop mockup based on the pictoral evidence (from Militaryphotos.net). Very well done though! - Some astonishing tripe being written about it (the mystery helecopter) too... Makes my 'night before' speedhawk conjecture almost plausible...

Mungo5
4th May 2011, 13:32
Yup.. that's the machine.. well spotted.

AR1
4th May 2011, 13:43
No it's NOT the machine...:ugh:

forget
4th May 2011, 13:52
'Silent Hawk'. The clue is in the name. :hmm:

Peter-RB
4th May 2011, 13:57
Would that size of TR be enough to control the Blackhawk?speedhawk or something of similar size...?

PeterR-B

forget
4th May 2011, 14:27
BBC report that White House is now saying there was a deliberate 25 minute video feed blackout during the operation. No one, unless they were there, saw what went on inside the compound.

Whatever next? :hmm:

Tourist
4th May 2011, 15:09
"The crashed helicopter's tail rotor bears more than a passing resemblance to that of the cancelled Boeing-Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche "

Except for the fact that that it is in no way a fenestron?

Mil-26Man
4th May 2011, 15:27
Hmmm, not a fenestron but in terms of the configuration of the individual tail rotor blades, their chord and length there is certainly a similarity with those of the Comanche.

This would tie in with the reoprted aspects of acoustic LO propoerties with the helicopter also....

Lonewolf_50
4th May 2011, 15:48
"The crashed helicopter's tail rotor bears more than a passing resemblance to that of the cancelled Boeing-Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche "

Actually, what you are referring to looks a bit like the Main Rotor Hub (five bladed) of the Comanche.

I am trying to understand who is seeing a forward sweep of the horizontal stab. In a hover, stab is typically 40 degrees down from the horizontal, in the S-70 class. I think perhaps the horizontal stab being in hover configuration is being seen in these photos as "sweep" of the horizontal stab.

Or am I missing a few photos that show a real sweep? :confused:

Tourist
4th May 2011, 15:57
Nope, it definately has a forward sweep.

And fenestrons are totally different, and certainly in the case of the gazelle, not quiet!


Is it just me that would love this to be an elaborate hoax from the yanks to throw everybody into a tiz and have the chinese/russions frantically trying to work out why you would have a forward swept stabiliser?

BOAC
4th May 2011, 16:34
However, it is not clear if development has progressed to the point where a system can yet be employed on operations. - hrm - based on what we know, I would think that is close to the truth.:)

Mil-26Man
4th May 2011, 16:49
I think he was probably referring to the Sikorsky system in particular BOAC as opposed to other such systems in general.
As for fenestrons being universally noisy - not true ( Comanche being a case in point).
Perhaps more interestingly, did anyone else note that the fuselage seems to extend into an aerodynamic fairing that protrudes beyond the vertical stabiliser?

zondaracer
4th May 2011, 17:00
I thought the whole point of the fenestron was to reduce the noise (and make it safer for those on the ground)

Mil-26Man
4th May 2011, 17:07
That's what I thought zondaracer. Did this aircraft have a fenestron? I haven't seen all the pics.

Tourist
4th May 2011, 17:31
Hmm, certainly I was under the impression that the purpose of the fenestron was efficiency. ie good thrust from a ducted fan when required in the hover coupled with very effectively offloading in forward flight due to the shroud and tail

chopper2004
4th May 2011, 17:53
Here are 2 views of the 2nd Comanche prototype I took at on the first day of Farnborough 98

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/0001478.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/0001479.jpg

Admittedly whats the MRH may resemble the crashed helo's tail rotor design, how about this X2 tech up front (as below from my visit to Heli Expo a few months ago)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/P3080898.jpg

Unless X2 tech has already gone to war :) :cool::mad:

iRaven
4th May 2011, 19:31
????

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/mh-x3.jpg

Lonewolf_50
4th May 2011, 19:42
iRaven:

If such a bird has been built and used (at night, like the old sea shadow on the west coast) then Sikorsky (rr Boeing, or MD) has been running a multi-million dollar "black" program for quite a few years, and little to nothing will be said about it.

Such changes as he imagines above (to include the ducting of exhaust as done for Comanche) present non-trivial CG and other structural challenges.

No further comments, as I have an idea that Tourist is on to something.

Is it just me that would love this to be an elaborate hoax from the yanks to throw everybody into a tiz and have the chinese/russions frantically trying to work out why you would have a forward swept stabiliser? :}

@851: not sure why he suggests 5 blades, and I note that the TRGB on a hawk (S-70 series) is on the right side, and canted about 20 degrees. That pic has it on the left, and not canted at all. With 5 blades on the main rotor hub, my brain tells me one has to retune, for vibrations, the whole bloody design ... the entire cabin has to be retuned. (Achievable, no doubt, but at non trivial cost). Why not stay with 4 main rotor blades even if they chose to go with five on the tail for whatever reason?

That sketch doesn't quite do it for me.

Oh, and by the way, don't US helicopters rotate their blades counterclockwise? :confused: The drawing shows a clockwise rotor blade direction.

Not seeing that one as the answer.

TEEEJ
4th May 2011, 19:59
Images of what was behind the screen erected in the compound.

http://i.imgur.com/DYBhQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rXvqM.jpg

TJ

Lonewolf_50
4th May 2011, 20:15
The guy on the right looks like a red head. Almost looks like he's dressed in Brit Army kit ...

Cows getting bigger
4th May 2011, 20:25
That is big. To me it appears far larger than anything that could be developed on a 60.

Tashengurt
4th May 2011, 20:29
Stealth CH53?!

I couldn't notice that the BBC news site briefly touced on this beast but now all references have been removed. I'm off to get my foil hat on!

Always a Sapper
4th May 2011, 20:44
Who ever placed the dem charges on what may well turn out to be some new supa duper secret squirrel bit of kit will have some explaining to do having left such a large bit intact for the locals to drool over....

When we had to destroy something in situ with a bit of bang we always used to try and 'convert it to very little bits' and place said little bits all over the landscape, preferably in different continents :E

forget
4th May 2011, 20:50
Oh I don't know; they managed to totally vaporise engines, exhausts, blade spars etc etc. Things that normally survive the worst of fires. :confused:

Unchecked
4th May 2011, 21:44
I think the guys tasked with destroying it had more pressing things to deal with than perfectly obliterating it, under fire, in a Pakistan city, at night, with the world's most wanted man (dead or alive) in their custody. I doubt one jot that failing to destroy the tail of a helicopter, no matter how superdupersecret, was on anyone's mind as they exfilled.

As for the guy on the right, yeah it does look like BritMil uniform - from about 5 decades ago!

As for size of the components, I'd imagine that smaller TRBs would require a faster and possibly therefore larger TGB. Maybe that accounts for it's size, I wouldn't say it would look too cumbersome on a 60, if anything it looks too small for a 53.

All personal conjecture, of course !

Lonewolf_50
4th May 2011, 21:49
How do you figure they were under fire?

As I understand it, the "firefight" lasted a few minutes and the remainder of the brief time on the ground was spent collecting loot and bodies of varying sorts (possibly rendering first aid to the lady who was shot in the leg), and destroying helicopter then and getting loaded up and outta there.

An invigorating forty minutes of one's life, no doubt, but I do not see any reports of them being under fire near the end of the mission ... only early on in that brief fire fight.

kevrockjockuk01
4th May 2011, 21:50
The latest possible ID on the spooks Taxi

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/mh-x3.jpg

Looks like a moded S70 Spirit
Looks about right but who knows

Kev S

international hog driver
4th May 2011, 21:53
Remember this thing......

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z96/redlum5x5/ts.jpg

Sikorsky S-75........ 76 dynamics, proof of concept all-composite helicopter.

Add in a bit of R&D, a-la Bird of Prey, LM X-55 etc.

There is no reason to believe that Uncle Sam has not developed a low-observable carbon composite fuse using existing dynamics.

Have a look at the other thread in Rotorheads, the head is clearly Black/Sea/Naughtyhawk .......

Throw in a bit of Comanche.....

At least when the customers start complaining about the "black helicopters" we know they are lying..... its clear they are a silver-grey:E

500N
4th May 2011, 22:06
Always a sapper

"Who ever placed the dem charges on what may well turn out to be some new supa duper secret squirrel bit of kit will have some explaining to do having left such a large bit intact for the locals to drool over....

When we had to destroy something in situ with a bit of bang we always used to try and 'convert it to very little bits' and place said little bits all over the landscape, preferably in different continents :E"


All well and good but a couple of factors.

1. It was a kill raid, not a destroy raid so the likelihood of them
having a huge amount of explosive charges to 'convert it to very
little bits' would not be high.
They probably had some breaching and framed charges for walls, widows et al but breaching a wall / window doesn't take a huge amount of explosive.

2. Chopper, confined space, own people around, the consequences
of shrapnel hitting own people and machines would be high.

3. If left to go off after they leave, what if they don't go off ? Then what ?
Can't go back.

I agree with unchecked. "I doubt one jot that failing to destroy the tail of a helicopter, no matter how superdupersecret, was on anyone's mind as they exfilled."

Machines are expendable, people are not.

Unchecked
4th May 2011, 22:26
Lonewolf

Granted, but even if you remove 'under fire' from my post, there's still a lot left there for the boys to be thinking about. In the dark and in a major residential area is going to make it hard enough. Paveway or JDAM has been the tool of choice for downbird denial in Afg in the past as I understand it, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't an option on Sunday night.

I think the guys on the ground most probably did the best they could with the tools they had available and within the constraints placed upon them.

I do hope the US DoD reveal all soon though!

TheWizard
4th May 2011, 22:27
Looks like a fairly straight forward(ish) scenario to me.

Helicopters (whatever the variant) fly into compound. One of them flares hard (like a UH60 is prone to do) and has a tail strike on the compound wall.

Tail structure structure falls one way (as in the picture), main wreckage falls other side of wall.

Remaining troops/survivors are now inside the compound. All hell breaks loose,
dems (white phos or similar) thrown into main wreckage.

All remaining troops onto cabs inside the compound(s). Therefore no time to scale the walls or go around and destroy tail boom.

Everyone gets the hell out of dodge.


As to what the cabs were?? Who knows??!!

All of course IMHO.

Unchecked
4th May 2011, 22:32
Seems very reasonable.

Buster Hyman
4th May 2011, 22:56
http://tst.greyfalcon.us/pictures2/81.jpg

*Artists impression.

GreenKnight121
5th May 2011, 01:39
Mission helo was secret stealth Black Hawk - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/05/army-mission-helocopter-was-secret-stealth-black-hawk-050411/)

Sirius Flying
5th May 2011, 05:42
Inside bin Laden's Compound (http://www.reuters.com/subjects/bin-laden-compound)

bakseetblatherer
5th May 2011, 05:52
That fist pic of the tail rotor is very clear & looks like nothing I have seen before, obviously not an exhaustive list.

Wannabe Flyer
5th May 2011, 06:06
Question 1.

Reports indicate that about 25 SEALS were ferried in 2 choppers. Assuming they were flying in from JBAD they probably were carrying a full fuel load. Would it be possible for 2 UH - 60's to carry 25 SEAL's and assume to carry back Dead/Alive Enemy combatants of value?

Question 2.

After one Chopper was downed would it be possible for one chopper to ferry back 25 SEALS, one long dead man, and about 200 pounds worth of computers and hard drives and stuff.

To an earlier reference of a red haired Brit soldier. Well the red hair is from a product called Henna something men in that area typically use to dye their hair and is very common there (still have not figured out why they like the flaming orange color) and the uniform, is attributed to what many free lance security guards and or local cops wear which is a remnant of the culture of the British Raj. (beleive it or not .303 Lee Enfields are also still in use there).

Tourist
5th May 2011, 07:31
Wannabe.

Have a look at a Blackhawk, and answer your own question

Wannabe Flyer
5th May 2011, 09:07
@Tourist

Unless I am reading incorrect

Global Aircraft -- UH-60 Blackhawk (http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/uh-60_blackhawk.pl)

Crew: Two pilots, one flight engineer and one gunner (able to carry up to 11 fully equipped troops

On the way in is clear, not clear how 25 people (plus crew of downed chopper) squeezed into one for the way out.

Unfortunately i do not have the luck to physically access or see one of these so just checking with those that are lucky enough to do so.

Tourist
5th May 2011, 09:33
Exactly

So in answer to Q1 Very No
In answer to Q2 Even more No

0497
5th May 2011, 09:47
Various reports tell of 40+ troops were involved.

25 (two helicopters) were the compound assault force. The rest presumably provided perimeter security. Local residents came in contact with some and were told back inside their homes.

Wannabe Flyer
5th May 2011, 09:47
@ Tourist.

Thank you for clarification therefore there must have been more than 2 choppers on the ground as is being reported.

Hilife
5th May 2011, 09:57
O ye of little faith

In 2002, a Sikorsky HH-60J Jayhawk winched up 26 crew off the deck of the SS Sea Breeze some 230 nm east of Norfolk. With 30 POB (some 4,500 lbs of people and possessions) and a 60 knot headwinds, she made it back to terra firma with 800lbs of fuel still on board having burnt around 5,600 lbs.

If it’s numbers you want, then in 2009 a Turkish UH-60L rescued 44 persons, so that’s 48 POB.

Now I don’t know what really happened out there, but there can be no doubting the BlackHawks incredible pedigree when the going gets tough, just ask the Swedes. ;)

And to think we turned down the chance of 56 UH-60M’s for a bloody SA.330E upgrade. :ugh:

Tourist
5th May 2011, 10:01
Hilife

Jayhawk is not a blackhawk, and that 60kt headwind will have been a godsend for the pickup. I'd like to see it do that still wind in Pakistan at 4000ft!

ps Have you got a link to the Turkish story? Where did they put them? Underslung? Seems unlikely at a first glance.....

BOAC
5th May 2011, 10:31
For what it is worth (ok,ok!) initial early news coverage on UK TV showed a graphic of FOUR helis flying from a 'US base' to the west of the site, I would estimate around 80km? Wonder where that graphic came from?

Wokkafans
5th May 2011, 10:35
Calvin Woodward of AP writing in Army Times refers to some of the troops being extricated by one of two "standby" Chinooks.

Inside bin Laden’s lair with SEAL Team Six - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/05/ap-inside-bin-ladens-lair-with-seal-team-six-050411/)

"Inside Bin Laden’s lair with SEAL Team Six

By Calvin Woodward - The Associated Press
Posted : Wednesday May 4, 2011 21:15:24 EDT

WASHINGTON — So much could have gone wrong as SEAL Team Six swept over Pakistan’s dark landscape, dropped down ropes into a compound lined by wall after wall, exchanged gunfire and confronted “Geronimo” face to face. The vital things went right.
Just about every contingency the 25 commandos trained for came at them, rapidly, chaotically and dangerously, in their lunge for Osama bin Laden.


They had acted on the best intelligence the U.S. had ever had on bin Laden’s whereabouts since he slipped away in the mountains of Tora Bora just under a decade ago. But it was guesswork, too, with the commandos’ lives, a president’s reputation and a nation’s prestige riding on the outcome.


Was the man once seen pacing the compound’s courtyard really bin Laden, as it appeared to American eyes? That was just one unknown.
In short, the U.S. had no direct evidence that bin Laden would be there during the assault — or indeed had ever been there. Obama put the raiders in motion on the “pretty good chance” they would find their man, as CIA Director Leon Panetta, who was overseeing the operation back in Washington, put it.


Days after the attack, the administration has fleshed out a reconstruction that is probably more accurate than its initial, flawed telling. More information has been gleaned from the commandos themselves, now back at their home base outside Virginia Beach, Va. Some dust has settled.


But there remains no independent or competing account to the administration’s story as yet. The reconstruction comes largely from Panetta, White House spokesman Jay Carney and Obama’s counterterrorism adviser, John Brennan. Some of their early details proved unreliable.


The only other direct witnesses are the compound’s occupants, now in Pakistani custody and, for now, out of reach to everyone else.
Information gaps exist in the official account. Among them: how many armed defenders the raiders encountered, who shot at whom, why none of the compound’s survivors was taken away by the Americans, and how many commandos stormed bin Laden’s room. It may never be known which commando, or two, killed bin Laden with shots to his head and chest.


The question of exactly what the unarmed bin Laden did to prompt the SEALs to kill rather than capture him has not been settled. However, officials speaking anonymously told The Associated Press that bin Laden appeared to be lunging for a weapon in a room that contained his trademark AK-47 assault rifle and side arms. Still, to some in government and intelligence circles, the operation bore the hallmarks of a pure kill mission despite statements from officials that bin Laden would have been taken alive if he had surrendered.


On one point, however, there has been no inconsistency, revision or challenge: The raiders of Team Six made good on their “pretty good chance” and got safely away in a bold mission accomplished.


Late last week, Panetta got the word from the White House that Obama was giving the green light for the raid. Other options, including the idea of “just blowing the place up” from a B-2 bomber, had been discarded, he said. The president’s order soon followed. Obama directed Panetta to proceed under Title 50, meaning this would be a covert operation.


Operational control fell to Adm. William McRaven, head of the Joint Special Operations Command, who is stationed in Afghanistan. Panetta said: “My instructions to Admiral McRaven were, ‘Admiral, go in and get bin Laden. And if he’s not there, get the hell out.’” Team Six was ready.
Its members had rehearsed the assault many times — two or three times a night in Afghanistan, Panetta said. The U.S. had a strong sense for at least several months that bin Laden might be at the compound, which Americans had been monitoring for months longer than that.
Intelligence officials watched so closely that they saw a family’s clothes on the third floor balcony and, at one point, a man resembling bin Laden out in the courtyard, Panetta said. They surmised bin Laden and his “hidden family” lived on the second and third floors, because his trusted courier — who had unwittingly drawn the U.S. to this unlikely hideout — occupied the first floor, with his brother in a guesthouse.
When two Black Hawk helicopters carrying the commandos left Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, stopping in Jalalabad before crossing over into Pakistan on their way to Abbottabad, the operation invited its first risk. Pakistani authorities, kept in the dark about the U.S. mission in their territory, might spot the choppers and engage them.


But the strong Pakistani military presence in Abbottabad, a garrison city with a military academy near the compound, provided a cover of sorts for the Americans. No one would be particularly surprised to hear choppers flying at night.


Reaching their target, the raiders suddenly had to improvise.
Their plan to place a rappelling team on the roof with a second team dropping into the courtyard was jettisoned when one of the helicopters, its blades clawing at hot, too-thin air, had to put down hard. Both choppers landed in the courtyard, behind one ring of walls with more to go.


That was just one of the split-second decisions the SEALs had to make in the lair of al-Qaida’s leader. Gunfire erupted, as the 25 commandos on the ground surely had expected and might even have started.
But the compound was also populated with more than two dozen children and women, according to the U.S. The raiders faced life-and-death calls — their own lives and those of the compound’s inhabitants — about who was lethal and who was just in their way. That line was not obvious. The SEALs went in with the assumption that some of those they encountered might be wearing explosive suicide vests.


Back at the White House and at a CIA command center, officials including Obama had monitored the operation to this point, apparently on TV monitors although the administration won’t say. Special forces are typically outfitted with video.


But when the strike force actually entered the compound, Panetta said, 20 or 25 minutes elapsed when “we really didn’t know just exactly what was going on.”


A violent melee was going on, key details still largely a mystery.
The raiders trying to get into the house breached three or four walls, Panetta said, not specifying whether they scaled them or blew holes.
On the first floor, the SEALs killed the courier and his brother, and the courier’s wife died in crossfire. They shot open some doors.
They then swept upstairs and burst into a third floor room, entering one at a time, said Carney. There all the U.S. intelligence, the surmising and the guesswork paid off.


Bin Laden’s wife charged at the SEALs, crying her husband’s name at one point. They shot her in the calf. Officials told AP that one SEAL grabbed a woman, fearing she might be wearing a suicide vest, and pulled her away from his team. Whether that was bin Laden’s wife has not been confirmed.


Also in the room were bin Laden and a son. The first bullet struck bin Laden in the chest. The second struck above his left eye, blowing away part of his skull. It is not confirmed whether the shots came from one commando, two or in a spray of gunfire.


The son was shot dead in that room, too. After the nerve-wracking, nearly half-hour gap in information from the scene, Washington got word that “Geronimo” was killed in action.


The raiders’ work was not done. They quickly swept the compound, retrieving possibly crucial records on the operations of al-Qaida.


They destroyed the chopper that gave them trouble. This renewed worries that Pakistani authorities would discover the mission prematurely. Neighbors certainly noticed. “We had to blow the helicopter,” Panetta said, “and that probably woke up a lot of people, including the Pakistanis.”


The non-combatants, their hands bound with plastic ties as the operation unfolded, were left for Pakistani officials to round up.

About 10 days before the raid, Obama was briefed on the plan. It included keeping two backup helicopters just outside Pakistani airspace in case something went wrong. But Obama felt that was risky. If the SEALs needed help, they couldn’t afford to wait for backup. He said the operation needed a plan in case the SEALs had to fight their way out. So two Chinooks were sent into Pakistani airspace, loaded with backup teams, just in case. One of those Chinooks landed in the compound after the Black Hawk became inoperable. The raiders scrambled aboard the remaining Black Hawk and a Chinook, bin Laden’s body with them, and flew to the aircraft carrier Carl Vinson in the North Arabian Sea. The ground operation had taken about 40 minutes.


Only after the Americans left the area was Pakistan informed of what had happened on its territory.


Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen called Pakistani Army chief Ashfaq Kayani to tell him that an operation he had not known about was complete, a U.S. official told AP. Panetta called his Pakistani counterpart shortly afterward.


Mere hours after the operation, before most of the world knew bin Laden was found and killed, his body was buried at sea.

MReyn24050
5th May 2011, 10:53
The Chinese take on the subject. How much of it is guess work?

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/stealthhelo_sm.jpg

Buster Hyman
5th May 2011, 11:49
The Chinese take on the subject. How much of it is guess work?
None. They probably built it under licence!

NutLoose
5th May 2011, 11:55
Quote:
The Chinese take on the subject. How much of it is guess work?
None. They probably built it under licence!


And are now selling it back to the USA at a lower price. :ok:

Buster Hyman
5th May 2011, 11:58
Bit fancy for a Yum Cha trolley though...

SASless
5th May 2011, 12:44
Two Chinooks were standing by nearby....want to guess how many folks that birdie will pick up and fly away with at a piddling 4,000 feet MSL? The US Army has flown UH-60's with 26-29 FULLY Equipped Infantry troops aboard in places like Iraq and Afghanistan....know that for a fact as told by some who dunnit! Seating Capacity does not mean Carrying Capacity! In combat, seats usually are removed and cargo straps are used in lieu.....you can carry more folks that way.

Some of ya'll need to put down the Checklists, SOP's, CFS mentality....and accept reality exists and life begins outside the box you build for yourselves with all the artificial constraints you find so comfortable.

Seldomfitforpurpose
5th May 2011, 12:53
Some of ya'll need to put down the Checklists, SOP's, CFS mentality....and accept reality exists and life begins outside the box you build for yourselves with all the artificial constraints you find so comfortable.

Sas,

Spot on however for folk that have neither been or worked with SF folk the logic you use is hard to fathom.

Not been SF myself but in a previous role worked with some who were and the corners cut often made me wince but I got the "why" and could see the risk/reward balance as being very valid :ok:

forget
5th May 2011, 13:01
Some of ya'll need to put down the Checklists, SOP's, CFS mentality....and accept reality exists and life begins outside the box you build for yourselves with all the artificial constraints you find so comfortable.
I wouldn't be one bit surprised to find that the furthest 'outside of the box' machines and crews have gone is not Special Forces but Search and Rescue, civil and Mil. (Even the Saigon roof top 205's were 'civil' ;) )

TEEEJ
5th May 2011, 13:02
Always a Sapper,

The tail appears to be outside the compound. Obviously they destroyed the main portion of the helo inside the compound. In the heat of the moment, hidden by the wall and in the dark, it is clear that is was overlooked.

TJ

Doors Off
5th May 2011, 13:23
It is not a Blackhawk variant. That tailboom is off the new Huey II, it can hover to the moon, carry 55,000 rounds of 20mm, 7.62mm, 200 rockets, 80 hellfires, and 65 troops. Rearm and refuel in 6 mins as well.

On a serious side, there is some chat on the net that it may be an S92 variant?

The crew was rescued by Blue Thunder:}

Doors Off

TEEEJ
5th May 2011, 15:03
Looks like a good match for an H-60 rotor head?

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Bin Laden Raid: Stealth Helicopter Mods? (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1739955&postcount=53)

TJ

JFZ90
5th May 2011, 17:05
Its interesting that given the tail rotor is from a clearly unknown and unidentified helicopter, that there is not a sausage on the "flightglobal" website about it (unless I missed it).

Erecting screens around it kind of implies there is something classified about it. It would surely make more sense to just chuck a tarpaulin over it?

Bubblewindow
5th May 2011, 18:19
Not near a TV but just got a Msge that on ITV news , the U.S have finally admitted it was a never before seen 'Stealth Heli'. (No s@&t Sherlock!)
Can't find the statement on the net yet??

BW

Tourist
5th May 2011, 18:32
SASLess

Not in any way denigrating the Hawk and it's variants. I have time on 2 of them myself, though not the utility versions. Fantastic bit of kit, we should have bought them years age for the RN and RAF.

Re the "Yes the Hawk can carry 26-29 fully equipped", maybe, I'll take your word for it, but the Hawk variant in this case is likely to be more PaveHawk than Blackhawk. Go look up the difference in empty weight. No 25 POB in that beastie.




On further investigation, I call bulls1t on your 26-29 fully equipped in Iraq/Afghan
No way no day, unless you mean SF running around kit only, and even then......

That is the sort of thing done to get out of a nasty situation, not on the way to the action, except for crazy ops like the Seaking into Argentina 1000s of Lbs over max weight.

"Some of ya'll need to put down the Checklists, SOP's, CFS mentality....and accept reality exists and life begins outside the box you build for yourselves with all the artificial constraints you find so comfortable. "

Since you have no idea of the background of various on here, that is a bit of a strong statement, don't you think?

Silly point anyway, because you don't for a minute think that they only sent 2 helicopters for 40+ troops whilst expecting to pick up extras, do you?

Wokkafans
5th May 2011, 18:32
Coverage on US ABC News worth a look...

SEALs Used Secret Stealth Helicopter Video - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/seals-worlds-1st-stealth-helicopter-13533840)

WF

Lonewolf_50
5th May 2011, 19:05
More interesting is the report that "lights and phones went out" right before the raid and "came back on" shortly afterwards.

News guy insinuates that this is evidence of a cyber attack on local phone and power grids. Hmmm, food for thought.

Also of interest was this comment: stuff collected and bundled off to points unknown, possibly for sale to Chinese ... who are trying to develop stealth aircraft and helicopters and missiles. Is this potential tech transfer an unexpected oops from this mission, if the above is true?

Hmm, further food for thought.

TBM-Legend
5th May 2011, 21:45
I think that the tail unit is a fibreglass replica set up to deceive....:rolleyes:

Great job by all....

UV
5th May 2011, 21:45
The raiders scrambled aboard the remaining Black Hawk and a Chinook, bin Laden’s body with them, and flew to the aircraft carrier Carl Vinson in the North Arabian Sea.
Mere hours after the operation, before most of the world knew bin Laden was found and killed, his body was buried at sea.

Oh really??? The nearest point of the Arabian Sea is actually about 650 nautical miles away (in a straight line, thru PAKISTANI airspace!) from the compound.
So, what I would like to know is, how did they manage to get the body there, and have it under the water, by the time Obama announced it on TV just hours later?!
And how did they get the DNA, photograph him, wash him, dress him etc., all within the same timescale!
Not that i dont believe the Americans for one minute...

500N
5th May 2011, 21:51
I just wish the US had got the facts sorted out before they all sprouted off.
It was a great result look as bad as the Pakistanis.

Anyway, the body is now located in Area 51.

Wokkafans
5th May 2011, 22:23
As someone with expertise in DNA technology (PhD Applied Molecular Biology) you might be surprised to know that running a DNA test to verify his identity need only take a few hours. This could be done in a small lab, which could be mobile/containerised, using a technique such as Y-linked short tandem repeat PCR amplification and analysis.

The most important issues for DNA testing are the have fresh, uncontaminated, and non-degraded samples (no problem in this case:ok:), and suitable samples for comparison with.

From what I understand the DNA comparison was made with DNA from his sister, who died in a US hospital, with additional secondary verification using morphological features (height), in combination with facial recognition technology. One would expect the CIA/U.S. military to be well versed in all these techniques

Can't explain the claimed transit time to the carrier though :hmm:

WF

RUCAWO
5th May 2011, 22:31
I think the claimed time overall was eleven hours.

Buster Hyman
5th May 2011, 22:45
More interesting is the report that "lights and phones went out" right before the raid and "came back on" shortly afterwards.
...and when I first heard about this, I wondered how that local was able to "tweet" the raid live. :confused:

TEEEJ
5th May 2011, 23:13
UV,

US officials state that bin ladens body was taken to Afghanistan. His body was flown out to the carrier probably by a C-2 Greyhound? (Unless he took a back seat ride in a two-seat F/A-18 Hornet?). It was also reported on the news this morning that his son killed in the raid was also buried at sea.

News reports highlighting bin laden being taken to Afghanistan.

BBC News - Osama Bin Laden: What happened to his body? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13261680)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/world/asia/02reconstruct-capture-osama-bin-laden.html

TJ

tartare
6th May 2011, 00:11
I think we've all missed the obvious conclusion that if a stealth blackhawk was involved - then there were probably stealth chinooks in there as well ;)

exH60cChief
6th May 2011, 00:12
one hawk would not be able to carry much more than 11 troops with gear, ammo for the miniguns, fuel, etc especially in hot weather not just because of the space limitations but the power and lift reduction with a temperature spike, and altitude (not sure if that was a factor.) the tail rotor is different on this, so the main rotor would almost certainly be different. if that were true it may have more powerful engines and so on, they could have sling-loaded the downed bird with a chinook or maybe even the hyper-stealth-steroid-hawk either way they likely had a multi-ship trail party to clean up or some sort of plan B../

Other thoughts* if the tailcone is primarily composite, and it was punctured by gunfire, rpg, or a wall the opposing gyroscopic forces of the tail rotor, tail rotor driveshaft, and tailcone driveshafts could tear the whole thing off.. but the pic on reuters of inside the compound show exploded parts of a helicopter burnt (like composites do.) so who knows.

food for thought.. stealth coating on the windows was a topic in another thread i forget which.. but, unpiloted helicopter?

nice castle
6th May 2011, 01:07
Hugely amazed by the people on here giving credence to such a fake load of bolleaux.

The frisbee is clearlt a load of crap. Not dirty, bent, and it could have been photographed anywhere.

total non-story getting a huge amount of bites! (Including me now...)

Tourist
6th May 2011, 07:50
Castle

If you are so convinced it is a bite, care to put your money where your mouth is?

What forfeit are you willing to risk if we subsequently discover it to be true.

nice castle
6th May 2011, 08:50
I'll apologise and have to eat some humble pie I suppose, chap. Other than that, I won't be going to great efforts to show it's a fake - it's just my 2p, if that's ok?

BOAC
6th May 2011, 10:19
a fake load of bolleaux.

The frisbee is clearlt a load of crap. - I reckon that's a bit more than 2p!

XV277
6th May 2011, 10:48
Oh really??? The nearest point of the Arabian Sea is actually about 650 nautical miles away (in a straight line, thru PAKISTANI airspace!) from the compound.
.

One of the spotter forums draws attention to this alleged 'secret US base' inside Pakistan

Point A on the map

Tarbela Dam Airport - Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=Tarbela+Dam+Airport&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl)

quadradar
6th May 2011, 12:05
Very interesting aircraft on apron on Google Earth !

Or am I imagining things ......

RUCAWO
6th May 2011, 12:15
AH/MH-6 Littlebird.

denlopviper
6th May 2011, 12:53
the field is called Ghazi. in civilian circles its called Tarbela

AR1
6th May 2011, 13:57
I find the concept spouted on militaryfakephotoshoppedpictures.net that somebody took the trouble during a live military op to leave behind a fake tailrotor even more ridiculous than the speculation regarding what type it may or may not represent..

BEagle
6th May 2011, 14:19
Ah, but AR1, these are the people who dress up in 'camo' tabards festooned with I-think-I-once-saw-a-Tomcat badges, who carry little aluminium stepladders to air show and who believe in 'chemtrails'.....

Photospotter gives them a new way of wasting everyone else's time...

Still, here's a nice shot from Area 51:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/wing.jpg
















or perhaps not?

XV277
6th May 2011, 14:47
Is page 6 on this thread classified?

Mmm, perhaps not

SASless
6th May 2011, 16:42
"Some of ya'll need to put down the Checklists, SOP's, CFS mentality....and accept reality exists and life begins outside the box you build for yourselves with all the artificial constraints you find so comfortable. "

Since you have no idea of the background of various on here, that is a bit of a strong statement, don't you think?


Knowing the background of most....and the influenced thinking created by those within a very structured existence....it is a very accurate statement.

Take note some whose background you do not know and probably cannot fathom...agree with the statement.

Combat and the demands it puts upon people to perform unusual acts sometimes puts paid to SOP's, Checklists, and above all....conventional thinking ( that kind we know as being "within" the box...where one is all comfy and safe because one can point to a bit of text and say....see there...I was right!") when reality necessitates taking very real risks that exceed Peace Time rules, SOP's and thus thinking thus putting your cute little ass square on the spot.

Again....when a fellow/lady says they dunnit....say so in the presence of their peers....who know the truth.....I suggest we can accept it happened. They also said it was risky....violated all their rules....but was a necessary effort consistent to the extenuating circumstances extant at the time.

I accept your statement about the weight difference of the 160th's 60's...but then we don't know what Mod's have been made to the aircraft...their fuel state....where the FARP had been established (if any)...and a myriad of other things. It appears there might be an unknown Helicopter type used....how does that play into things?

Perhaps you might consider how your SAS folks get to work....reckon they are limited to standard rules as say an ordinary Infantry Regiment might be?

This is what we are talking of here....some "Hi Speed...Low Drag" folks doing some very interesting work.

Lonewolf_50
6th May 2011, 17:11
But Beagle, that thing can't hover! :eek:

FoxtrotAlpha18
7th May 2011, 04:19
From Bloomberg..


A United Technologies Corp. (UTX) (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=UTX:US) Black Hawk helicopter carrying U.S. Navy SEALs to Osama Bin Laden’s hideout was downed by an air vortex caused by unexpectedly warm air and the effect of a high wall surrounding the compound, not mechanical failure or gunfire, according to U.S. officials and a lawmaker.
The Army pilot from the service’s most elite aviation unit executed a hard but controlled landing -- clipping a corner wall -- after the chopper lost lift. The 12 heavily armed SEALs exited the aircraft unharmed.
Senior government officials briefing (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/05/02/press-briefing-senior-administration-officials-killing-osama-bin-laden) reporters by telephone on May 1, the day bin Laden was killed, gave conflicting accounts, first saying the chopper experienced a mechanical “malfunction” and then backtracking without an explanation.
The initial administration explanation wasn’t accurate, according to U.S. government officials, a lawmaker and congressional staff briefed yesterday by Vice Admiral William McRaven (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/navybio.asp?bioid=401), leader of the Joint Special Operations Command.
The command includes the Army’s 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (http://www.campbell.army.mil/units/160thSOAR/Pages/160thSOAR.aspx), which piloted the SEALs of the Navy’s Special Warfare Development Group to the house in Abbottabad, Pakistan (http://topics.bloomberg.com/pakistan/). McRaven yesterday briefed the Senate and House armed services and intelligence committees.

Rappelling Mission Ditched

The aviation unit (http://www.campbell.army.mil/units/160thSOAR/Pages/160thSOAR.aspx) is based at Fort Campbell, Kentucky (http://topics.bloomberg.com/kentucky/). President Barack Obama (http://topics.bloomberg.com/barack-obama/) is scheduled to visit the base on Friday and see members of the 160th, said an Army official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the trip.
Twenty-five Navy SEALS were flown to the bin Laden home by two Black Hawks, CIA Director Leon Panetta told the PBS “News Hour” May 3.
The helicopter that crash-landed was supposed to hover over the compound’s courtyard so that the SEALS would rappel, or “fast rope,” to the ground, Panetta said.
According to two U.S. officials, who praised the skill of the pilot, the chopper lost the lift necessary to hover because it entered a “vortex” condition. At least two factors were at play -- hotter than expected air temperature and the compound’s 18-foot-high walls, they said.
The wall blocked rotor blade downwash from moving down and away as it normally would. This caused disturbed airflow to move in a circular, upward and then downward path back through the top of the rotor, causing insufficient lift for the aircraft.

Hard Landing (http://topics.bloomberg.com/hard-landing/)

The pilot, realizing he had lost lift, landed quickly in a maneuver practiced by pilots to deal with helicopter flight conditions known as “settling with power,” one official said.
Another explained that if a helicopter hovers next to a large enough building at just the right distance, moving air created by the rotors won’t be able to exit freely. Instead, it will hit the wall and have nowhere to go except back into the rotor, robbing lift.
The pilot executed a “hard landing” as a result, House Armed Services Committee ranking Democrat Representative Adam Smith (http://adamsmith.house.gov/) told reporters after a McRaven briefing.
Asked if there was a mechanical failure in the United Technologies’ Sikorsky aircraft, Smith said, “I don’t believe that is what happened.
‘‘As was explained to me, with the temperature and the setting, it came down faster than they anticipated so I don’t believe there was some sort of mechanical failure. It’s just those were tough conditions to land in,” Smith said.
House Armed Services Committee Chairman Representative Howard McKeon of California (http://topics.bloomberg.com/california/) reiterated in Washington (http://topics.bloomberg.com/washington/) yesterday that “it was not a mechanical failure.”

Wreckage Destroyed

He also said he had “no sense from the military that they had any concerns about” leaving wreckage of the modified Black Hawk, said McKeon.
The commandos detonated an explosive to destroy the helicopter, which the Army Times reports (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/05/army-mission-helocopter-was-secret-stealth-black-hawk-050411/) was a specially configured stealth model Black Hawk.
Two 160th additional MH-47 special operations Chinook helicopters provided back-up and assisted in flying out the raiders.
Sikorsky Aircraft spokesman Paul Jackson said the company hasn’t been contacted about any aspect of the raid.

Night Stalkers

Once known as the secret Task Force 160, the aviation regiment was formed in 1981 and has participated in most major U.S. military operations since the 1983 invasion of Grenada. Its pilots are known as the “Night Stalkers (http://www.soc.mil/160th/160th.html).”
Five of its personnel were lost and eight aircraft, including two Black Hawks, were either destroyed or damaged during the October 1993 battle in Mogadishu (http://novaonline.nvcc.edu/eli/evans/his135/Events/Somalia93/Somalia93.html), Somalia.
The unit’s Black Hawks and the mission to rescue the air crews were the basis of the book (http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov16/rang16.asp) and movie “Black Hawk Down.”
The unit flies (http://www.soc.mil/160th/Black%20Hawk.html) the Sikorsky MH-60 Black Hawk, Boeing Co. (BA) (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BA:US) MH-47E heavy assault chopper, and the Boeing A/H-6M Little Bird, used to ferry Army Delta Force commandos during a raid in the invasion of Panama (http://topics.bloomberg.com/panama/) to free a jailed American businessman, Kurt Muse.

To contact the reporter on this story: Tony Capaccio in Washington at [email protected] ([email protected])

Sorry about all the links... :ugh:

high spirits
7th May 2011, 05:37
So the article suggests power loss due to either recirculation or vortex ring (the American term settling with power). Or the latter caused by the former. Still not sure an 18 foot high wall would cause recirculation if they were at roping height, ie well above the level of the wall. Hell, what do I know , I only comment on what is already speculation.

Royalistflyer
7th May 2011, 06:58
All this is good and fine - but the fact remains that after one was down - that left just one helo to carry everyone out ..... and a Blackhawk can't carry that much. One suggestion to cover the unusual wreckage is a highly modified pair of S-92s - They lend themselves to stealthising/quietising, and some of the angles observed fit with the S-92. It would have the required carrying capacity. The team going in didn't know how many extra people they'd want to carry out, so the Blackhawk would be too small. This was a highly secret group that went in - so special aircraft are nothing unusual.

7th May 2011, 07:06
High spirits - not power loss, just an increase in power required that wasn't available. A small compound with 18ft high walls is just made for recirculation - seems surprising that SF superheroes didn't take that into account, surely they practised on a mock-up building first!

High DA shouldn't have been a surprise either so, if the explanation put forward for the loss of the helo is true, someone didn't do their homework properly and it could have seriously compromised the whole op - imagine 18 dead or injured SEALs in the wreckage - always impressive to do the enemy's job for him.

bast0n
7th May 2011, 07:50
Royalist flyer

Two 160th additional MH-47 special operations Chinook helicopters provided back-up and assisted in flying out the raiders.

Not a problem for one '60 then..............:)

lelebebbel
7th May 2011, 08:02
We'll never know for sure why the thing crashed. It does look like he came in too hot and settled onto the wall, but really - who knows.

Maybe Bin Laden himself shot the engines out with his Makarov - they just won't tell us, because that would make him look like a Terrorist Hero to his fellow jihadists.

Much better to blame the crash on VRS, created by the compound walls.. that's less embarrassing than "mechanical malfunction".
And to the general public, some vortex-thing doesn't even sound like "pilot error"!

SASless
7th May 2011, 20:11
Crab,

What kind of crystal ball you gazing into?:rolleyes:

You know naught of what ocurred...you don't even knoiw what kind of helicopter it was....give us a break here!:mad:

You think something as mundane as a simple engine failure might have happened?:ugh:

Bushranger 71
7th May 2011, 20:59
Given all of the unknowns, the only reasonable bit of conjecture here is that the aircraft (whatever it was) may have been operating too heavy and thus very close to performance limits.

Technological developments to reduce helo noise signatures, a big YES; but low observability and stealth would really be of very dubious merit, bearing in mind what helos are supposed to do down among the weeds. Cost also comes into play; for example, Huey II - $2million, UH-60M - $20million, NFH90 - maybe somewhere between $45-80million. Maintenance/operating costs also go up exponentially for composite LO hardware.

Most nations will be forced to operate helo types that are affordable and readily available for special operations work and not the super-expensive James Bond style stuff.

WillDAQ
7th May 2011, 21:17
that left just one helo to carry everyone out ..... and a Blackhawk can't carry that much

Is it such a stretch that they may have bought spare chopper capacity to the party? There's an article above which mentions two Chinooks.. that enough for you?

TEEEJ
7th May 2011, 22:12
Radars were inactive, not jammed: air chief

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has accepted the responsibility of air surveillance failure but informed the government that the entry of American helicopters into the Pakistani air space was not detected because the radars deployed on the western borders were not active on May 2. He dispelled the impression that the Pakistani radars were jammed.

Radars were inactive, not jammed: air chief (http://thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=5806&Cat=13&dt=5/7/2011)

TJ

Thelma Viaduct
8th May 2011, 00:09
It's funny how the spams spend loads of time and money on a quiet stealthy helicopter, then proceed to crash it in to Osama's back garden. I'm obviously assuming that stealthy aircraft make a noise when they stack it.
:}:}:}

Siggie
8th May 2011, 00:18
As pointed out previously, Tarbela Dam airfield (a couple of Littlebirds shown on it on Google Earth) is only 38nm away from OBL's 'opulent mansion' - Might make planning infil/exfil a little easier.

FoxtrotAlpha18
8th May 2011, 03:03
...UH-60M - $20million... :eek:

In what universe?!?!?

Royalistflyer
8th May 2011, 03:17
There's an article above which mentions two Chinooks.. that enough for you?

The locals are reported as saying that they did not hear the helos until they were directly overhead - you ever heard of a silent chinook? Or even a relatively quiet one. And the Pakis didn't see them on their radar ..... LO chinooks????

rh200
8th May 2011, 03:47
And the Pakis didn't see them on their radar ..... LO chinooks????

released in the news was that the radar on that side of the country wasn't on at the time. Can't find the link anymore. Was supposedly said by the Pakistani high command in response to "please explain" questions.

500N
8th May 2011, 05:17
rh200

The link is a few posts above yours.


Re the "you ever heard of a silent chinook?"

They could have been following a few minutes behind.

high spirits
8th May 2011, 05:38
Crab,
I get the whole 'compound is just made for recirculation' angle. However, the helicopter had just flown a significant distance and therefore burned petrol. Even with a running takeoff on departure the hover performance would not have been an issue even in recirc. Unless they had refuelled enroute of course. That just leaves vortex ring. Either way as you said, if they screwed up the perf calculation that's a bit dull.

Royalistflyer
8th May 2011, 05:57
The country is virtually at war - there's a real war in the country next door .....they are at daggers drawn with India ..."and the radar on that side of the country wasn't turned on..."

Oh come on - really does anyone believe this ....really!

8th May 2011, 10:28
Sasless - no crystal ball, just the official sources quoted in FA18's post. If what they (including the director of the CIA) say is correct then someone didn't cover all the bases in their pre-flight planning - usually SF ops are planned meticulously, as far as possible, and predicting recirculation from such a LS is not rocket science.

High spirits - if the op was launched from Tarbela Dam they didn't have far to fly and even so, 12 heavily armed SEALs is still a hefty payload.

I have fallen out of the sky flying into a similar sized and equally high walled (albeit wriggly tin) LS and landed much harder than intended - not hot, high or particularly heavy - just caught out by the massive power requirement to hover when the whole disc is experiencing recirculation.

Doors Off
8th May 2011, 11:23
There are good landings and great landings. Good ones you survive. Great ones you can use the aircraft again.

Fact: we don't know if there was mechanical failure or not.
Fact: Mission Success
Fact: They all survived

All of the above = Good Landing

Fact: it is a rumour network, so speculation is OK I guess.

I heard that they externally loaded in an old blackhawk with a "figure this one out China, Tail Boom", dropped it on the wall, then set in on fire to give us something to natter about.

Tourist
8th May 2011, 14:35
Oi Doors off

"I heard that they externally loaded in an old blackhawk with a "figure this one out China, Tail Boom", dropped it on the wall, then set in on fire to give us something to natter about."

Get your own conspiracy theory, or pay me royalties!

Doors Off
9th May 2011, 09:32
Tourist,

sorry old chap. Didn't realise you had raised something along those lines, or maybe I am Chinese and just reversed engineered your theory:E I guess mine won't work as well, but it still looks possible.

A big part of me hopes that it is a wind up, it would be great if it is. Who said the Yanks don't have a sense of humour:rolleyes: Maybe it was the British exchange pilots idea:}

Doors Off

RAFEngO74to09
9th May 2011, 15:47
Link to CBS 60 Minutes interview with President Obama on planning & execution of UBL raid (full episode on line) shown in the USA last night. Worth a look - some interesting details.

Watch 60 Minutes on CBS.com. Full Episodes, Clips and Behind the Scenes footage. (http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minutes/)

Lonewolf_50
9th May 2011, 20:09
I am not quite as indifferent as most seem to be in this discussion, regarding what may have been a mission planning issue, or a technique gaff during the mission. :confused:

Compromise of classified tech isn't a good thing. Crashing it to be exploited isn't good at all. :sad: While I am glad Osama got his taste of high speed lead, and the Pakistanis are embarassed (which I see as a good thing), I am not pleased that the "stealth" features are somewhat out in the open.

"We had our radars turned off."

Why not? It's not as if Afghanistan has any strike aircraft heading south anytime soon, and it could have been assumed that the Yanks were not a hostile air threat.

Hmm, they may revisit that assumption again, as they used to when they scrambled fighters against tankers over Afghanistan a few years back ... :p

Whoops ...

hoodie
9th May 2011, 20:48
Compromise of classified tech isn't a good thing. Crashing it to be exploited isn't good at all. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif While I am glad Osama got his taste of high speed lead, and the Pakistanis are embarassed (which I see as a good thing), I am not pleased that the "stealth" features are somewhat out in the open.

Yet what are they for - why bother creating them in the first place - if not to use them on Big Boys' Ops?

jamesdevice
9th May 2011, 21:28
Apparently the yanks have new intelligent spy-drones known as Crows & Ravens

Could Crows Have Helped Bring Down Bin Laden? · OPB News (http://news.opb.org/article/could-crows-have-helped-bring-down-bin-laden/)

NutLoose
11th May 2011, 11:41
Would appear German TV in it's haste to find the badge for Seal Team 6 found one and then ran it with the news.....

German TV: 'Star Trek' terrorists killed bin Laden | Technically Incorrect - CNET News (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20061024-71.html?tag=mncol;posts)

So it is official

'Star Trek' terrorists killed bin Laden, the badge they found and used was one for the Marquis, the bad guys on the Star Trek TV series Voyager.


Unfortunately, in its haste to offer a SEAL logo, someone at the station actually mustered the logo of the "Star Trek" Maquis Special Operations Seals Team VI--a bunch of nasty little 24th century terrorists.


ROFL :E

Lonewolf_50
11th May 2011, 17:41
Fair point, hoodie.

That Seal Team Six is being so glibly discussed in the media is yet another case of OPSEC violations in the name of glory mongering, this time by someone in the executive branch/DoD. (I doubt the SEAL Team Six folks are glory mongers, it's the mukky muks up high in DoD who too often play that card ...)

Most of the SEALS I ever met or worked with were low key, completely not Hollywood types, and not attention grabbers. Same with other SOF folks I had the chance to work with.

As the joke used to go, Delta Force doesn't exist ... but if you mention them, expect a visit in the late night by some quiet and deadly folk wearing NVG's. :}

Well, I'm not keen for our "cloak and dagger" folks to be outed. Anyone read "Feather Men" recently?

500N
11th May 2011, 18:37
""We had our radars turned off."

Why not? It's not as if Afghanistan has any strike aircraft heading south anytime soon, and it could have been assumed that the Yanks were not a hostile air threat."


No, but what about India ?
Anything stopping them flying around and coming in from the Afghan side ?

.

Lonewolf_50
11th May 2011, 20:16
Besides the fact that the USAF (and ISAF/NATO) still has radar coverage over Afghan airspace? US might advise the Indians "no funny stuff, if you please" and would be in a position to stop them if it got really nasty.

I don't see your scenario as realistic, 500N.

500N
11th May 2011, 21:08
I understand that. What is ISAF /NATO were not there ?

Afghan would still not be a threat but the door might be open
to a surprise back door attack.

Either way, I suppose I just always look for the least obvious route.

Lonewolf_50
12th May 2011, 12:03
I see what you're saying, 500N. When the outsiders eventually wander off, what sort of EW and air surveillance radar capability will Afghanistan maintain?

Good question.

TEEEJ
15th May 2011, 19:11
DISCOVERY CHANNEL SPECIAL (http://press.discovery.com/us/dsc/press-releases/2011/killing-bin-laden-1300-1300/)

Killing Bin Laden

One-Hour Special Premieres Sunday, May 15 at 10PM ET/PT


Due to air in the UK on Wednesday.

TJ

Siggie
24th May 2011, 21:32
The remains of the destroyed helicopter have been recovered to US soil. The US 'required' Pakistan to return the wreckage - seems a lot of trouble to go to for just a burnt out UH60, unless it was heavily modified!

BBC News - Pakistan returns helicopter used in Bin Laden operation (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13531607)

RUCAWO
25th May 2011, 09:02
Did the bits return by way of a Chinese model factory?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/four/4628poster1.jpg

Bushranger 71
31st May 2011, 21:18
Herewith a cut and paste media extract.

'AP sources: Raiders knew mission a one-shot deal

WASHINGTON (AP) — Those who planned the secret mission to get Osama bin Laden in Pakistan knew it was a one-shot deal, and it nearly went terribly wrong.
The U.S. deliberately hid the operation from Pakistan, and predicted that national outrage over the breach of Pakistani sovereignty would make it impossible to try again if the raid on bin Laden's suspected redoubt came up dry.
Once the raiders reached their target, things started to go awry almost immediately, officials briefed on the operation said.
Adding exclusive new details to the account of the assault on bin Laden's hideout, officials described just how the SEAL raiders loudly ditched a foundering helicopter right outside bin Laden's door, ruining the plan for a surprise assault. That forced them to abandon plans to run a squeeze play on bin Laden — simultaneously entering the house stealthily from the roof and the ground floor.
Instead, they busted into the ground floor and began a floor-by-floor storming of the house, working up to the top level where they had assumed bin Laden — if he was in the house — would be.
They were right.
The raiders came face-to-face with bin Laden in a hallway outside his bedroom, and three of the Americans stormed in after him, U.S. officials briefed on the operation told The Associated Press. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to describe a classified operation.
U.S. officials believe Pakistani intelligence continues to support militants who attack U.S. troops in Afghanistan, and actively undermine U.S. intelligence operations to go after al-Qaida inside Pakistan. The level of distrust is such that keeping Pakistan in the dark was a major factor in planning the raid, and led to using the high-tech but sometimes unpredictable helicopter technology that nearly unhinged the mission.
Pakistan's government has since condemned the action, and threatened to open fire if U.S. forces enter again.
On Monday, the two partners attempted to patch up relations, agreeing to pursue high-value targets jointly.
The decision to launch on that particular moonless night in May came largely because too many American officials had been briefed on the plan. U.S. officials feared if it leaked to the press, bin Laden would disappear for another decade.
U.S. special operations forces have made approximately four forays into Pakistani territory since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, though this one, some 90 miles inside Pakistan, was unlike any other, the officials say.
The job was given to a SEAL Team 6 unit, just back from Afghanistan, one official said. This elite branch of SEALs had been hunting bin Laden in eastern Afghanistan since 2001.
Five aircraft flew from Jalalabad, Afghanistan, with three school-bus-size Chinook helicopters landing in a deserted area roughly two-thirds of the way to bin Laden's compound in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad, two of the officials explained.
Aboard two Black Hawk helicopters were 23 SEALs, an interpreter and a tracking dog named Cairo. Nineteen SEALs would enter the compound, and three of them would find bin Laden, one official said, providing the exact numbers for the first time.
Aboard the Chinooks were two dozen more SEALs, as backup.
The Black Hawks were specially engineered to muffle the tail rotor and engine sound, two officials said. The added weight of the stealth technology meant cargo was calculated to the ounce, with weather factored in. The night of the mission, it was hotter than expected.
The Black Hawks were to drop the SEALs and depart in less than two minutes, in hopes locals would assume they were Pakistani aircraft visiting the nearby military academy.
One Black Hawk was to hover above the compound, with SEALs sliding down ropes into the open courtyard.
The second was to hover above the roof to drop SEALs there, then land more SEALs outside — plus an interpreter and the dog, who would track anyone who tried to escape and to alert SEALs to any approaching Pakistani security forces.
If troops appeared, the plan was to hunker down in the compound, avoiding armed confrontation with the Pakistanis while officials in Washington negotiated their passage out.
The two SEAL teams inside would work toward each other, in a simultaneous attack from above and below, their weapons silenced, guaranteeing surprise, one of the officials said. They would have stormed the building in a matter of minutes, as they'd done time and again in two training models of the compound.
The plan unraveled as the first helicopter tried to hover over the compound. The Black Hawk skittered around uncontrollably in the heat-thinned air, forcing the pilot to land. As he did, the tail and rotor got caught on one of the compound's 12-foot walls. The pilot quickly buried the aircraft's nose in the dirt to keep it from tipping over, and the SEALs clambered out into an outer courtyard.
The other aircraft did not even attempt hovering, landing its SEALs outside the compound.
Now, the raiders were outside, and they'd lost the element of surprise.
They had trained for this, and started blowing their way in with explosives, through walls and doors, working their way up the three-level house from the bottom.
They had to blow their way through barriers at each stair landing, firing back, as one of the men in the house fired at them.
They shot three men as well as one woman, whom U.S. officials have said lunged at the SEALs.
Small knots of children were on every level, including the balcony of bin Laden's room.
As three of the SEALs reached the top of the steps on the third floor, they saw bin Laden standing at the end of the hall. The Americans recognized him instantly, the officials said.
Bin Laden also saw them, dimly outlined in the dark house, and ducked into his room.
The three SEALs assumed he was going for a weapon, and one by one they rushed after him through the door, one official described.
Two women were in front of bin Laden, yelling and trying to protect him, two officials said. The first SEAL grabbed the two women and shoved them away, fearing they might be wearing suicide bomb vests, they said.
The SEAL behind him opened fire at bin Laden, putting one bullet in his chest, and one in his head.
It was over in a matter of seconds.
Back at the White House Situation Room, word was relayed that bin Laden had been found, signaled by the code word "Geronimo." That was not bin Laden's code name, but rather a representation of the letter "G." Each step of the mission was labeled alphabetically, and "Geronimo" meant that the raiders had reached step "G," the killing or capture of bin Laden, two officials said.
As the SEALs began photographing the body for identification, the raiders found an AK-47 rifle and a Russian-made Makarov pistol on a shelf by the door they'd just run through. Bin Laden hadn't touched them.
They were among a handful of weapons that were removed to be inventoried.
It took approximately 15 minutes to reach bin Laden, one official said. The next 23 or so were spent blowing up the broken chopper, after rounding up nine women and 18 children to get them out of range of the blast.
One of the waiting Chinooks flew in to pick up bin Laden's body, the raiders from the broken aircraft and the weapons, documents and other materials seized at the site.
The helicopters flew back to Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, and the body was flown to a waiting U.S. Navy ship for bin Laden's burial at sea, ensuring no shrine would spring up around his grave.
When the SEAL team met President Barack Obama, he did not ask who shot bin Laden. He simply thanked each member of the team, two officials said.
In a few weeks, the team that killed bin Laden will go back to training, and in a couple months, back to work overseas.
Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press.'

Airborne Aircrew
31st May 2011, 21:55
Adding exclusive new details to the account of the assault on bin Laden's hideout, officials described just how the SEAL raiders loudly ditched a foundering helicopter right outside bin Laden's door, ruining the plan for a surprise assault. That forced them to abandon plans to run a squeeze play on bin Laden — simultaneously entering the house stealthily from the roof and the ground floor.
Instead, they busted into the ground floor and began a floor-by-floor storming of the house, working up to the top level where they had assumed bin Laden — if he was in the house — would be.
They were right.

Is the author truly trying to have us believe that a deployment to the roof and the compound would have allowed a "squeeze play" from helicopters? Blades through air generating force has a side effect of noise even if you were running on totally silent electric engines. Now the tinfoil hat brigade will be even worse... :ugh:

NutLoose
1st Jun 2011, 00:25
.S. Senator John Kerry announced that Pakistan has agreed to return the tail of a stealth U.S. Black Hawk helicopter (http://www.warplanes.com/model-airplanes/uh-60-blackhawk-model-helicopter) that American commandos had to destroy and leave behind in the raid that killed Osama bin Laden. This was during the senator’s meeting with Pakistani officials.
Pakistani officials had expressed their interest on studying the remains of the U.S.’s secret stealth-modified Black Hawk helicopter (http://www.warplanes.com/model-airplanes/uh-60a-black-hawk-us-customs-model-helicopter) abandoned during the Navy SEAL raid of Osama bin Laden’s compound, and suggested the Chinese are as well.
The U.S. has already asked the Pakistanis for the UH-60 helicopter (http://www.warplanes.com/model-airplanes/uh-60a-black-hawk-us-customs-model-helicopter) wreckage back, but one Pakistani official told ABC News the Chinese were also “very interested” in seeing the remains.
One of the Black Hawks (http://www.warplanes.com/model-airplanes/uh-60a-black-hawk-us-customs-model-helicopter) flown by an elite Army unit called Task Force 160 – which carried the Navy SEAL commandos – lost lift and was forced into a hard landing at Osama bin Laden’s compound in Abbotabad.
The pilot nudged the UH-60 Black Hawk (http://www.warplanes.com/model-airplanes/uh-60-blackhawk-model-helicopter)forward into a controlled crash – saving the mission from disaster, but sheering off the helicopter’s tail section, CBS News national security correspondent David Martin reported.
Bill Sweetman, Editor in Chief for Defense Technology for Aviation Week, told “The Early Show” that some unusual features were spotted in the wreckage, including special materials covering the tail rotor hub to reduce the helicopter’s radar signature, and extra rotor blades to make it quieter.
“At a range of a couple hundred feet even, if you’ve got a bit of urban background noise, you’re not going to hear it,” said Sweetman.
Source: CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20063339-503543.html)


I bet they were LOL


Pakistan agrees to return stealth Black Hawk parts (http://community.warplanes.com/2011/05/17/pakistan-agrees-to-return-stealth-black-hawk-parts/)

Tashengurt
1st Jun 2011, 11:27
I can't say I'm convinced that the tail left behind was from some heavily modified Blackhawk variant. If it was it seems to be so heavily modified one wonders how it would be asimilated onto the existing airframe.
I haven't even attempted to scale it but it also looks much larger than anything from a Blackhawk.

Siggie
1st Jun 2011, 12:16
Google Image's your friend - Silent Hawk.

Tashengurt
1st Jun 2011, 12:25
Hmm. I'm not sure I'm ready to don a tin foil hat just yet but I'm afraid the fact someone has cobbled together what is, admittedly a very nice and plausible picture, isn't proof of this strange hybrid to me.

JFZ90
1st Jun 2011, 19:18
I can't say I'm convinced that the tail left behind was from some heavily modified Blackhawk variant. If it was it seems to be so heavily modified one wonders how it would be asimilated onto the existing airframe.
I haven't even attempted to scale it but it also looks much larger than anything from a Blackhawk.

In many ways I find myself reaching the same conclusions - however one of the pictures does show that the main rotor head appears identical to that of a blackhawk, which suggests it is likely to be a similar weight of helo.

Lonewolf_50
1st Jun 2011, 20:57
extra rotor blades to make it quieter.


What was that again? :confused:

Siggie
1st Jun 2011, 21:36
Hmm. I'm not sure I'm ready to don a tin foil hat just yet but I'm afraid the fact someone has cobbled together what is, admittedly a very nice and plausible picture, isn't proof of this strange hybrid to me.


The picture was out there long before the OBL raid and subsequent images of the wreckage, coupled with the fact that the US 'required' Pakistan to return the wreckage (of an ordinary UH60, would they really bother about it, if it were not 'modified')

You don't believe that the US would develop aircraft in secret and manage to keep it secret for such a long time.

Nighthawk ring any bells?

Please enlighten me of your reasons for your doubt of the aircraft's existence and what type helicopter the wreckage came from, otherwise my tin foil hat is staying firmly in place.

forget
1st Jun 2011, 21:41
Google Image's your friend - Silent Hawk.

Real? The clue is in the name, and you can eliminate 'Hawk'. ;)

Tashengurt
2nd Jun 2011, 06:51
Siggie,
You seem to have entirely the wrong end of the stick.
I don't doubt the helicopter was there. After all the evidence is there to see. I don't think the US would be desperate to have a UH60 recovered either. I simply don't see any evidence other than a few speculative drawings, that the aircraft in question was anything from the Blackhawk family, heavily modified or otherwise.

chopper2004
9th Aug 2012, 15:12
The plot thickens :)

Stealth Black Hawk « The Aviationist (http://theaviationist.com/category/stealth-black-hawk/)

As in the other side of the Med :)

Stealth Yanshuf: the Israeli top secret radar-evading chopper used to drop spies in Iran « The Aviationist (http://theaviationist.com/2012/05/17/stealth-yanshuf/)

Arguably (its a bit late now), if what exists could have been revealed at Farnborough, the show would have been a real showstopper :)

Cheers

XV277
13th Aug 2012, 22:19
There was an article in Aviation Leak or Fright at the time that suggested the 'Stealth hawk' was not classified, as it used existing techologies, but the SO people had just kept it carefully hidden.

Ian Corrigible
14th Aug 2012, 08:51
Tin foil hats at the ready:

Is This a Super-Secret Stealth Helicopter … Or a Hollywood Fake? (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/08/movie-prop-or-stealth)

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2012/08/blurred-660x495.jpg

(Movie link here (http://www.zerodarkthirty-movie.com/))

I/C

Stuff
14th Aug 2012, 09:36
Already covered here http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/492439-silent-hawk-pic-film-prop.html

chopper2004
14th Aug 2012, 11:23
I recall a Shephard Press Defence Helicopter article published in early 2000, inbterviewing 160th SOAR. There was a large paragraph stating that the Nightstalkers do all any mods all in house. Maybe one could park it in the open on the flightline amongst other MH-60K/M and I'm guessing the average allied air/ ground crews couldnt even walk near a restricted area so all they would see is a ramp full of H-60.

Davey2
15th Aug 2012, 14:05
Bit of coincidence here - I read this thread last week, thought nothing more about it and then last night, as I was climbing into bed, what should fly over the house but a pair of very strange sounding helis. I'm out in the sticks just to the north of Grafham Water and get regular overflights of Chinooks, Pumas, Merlins MH53s etc, so am used to the sound of rotors. I missed the first one but was hanging out of the window as the second one came from behind the house and saw it fly away to the south west in the direction of Kimbolton. It was dark so only saw a single red strobe but what struck me as odd was the sound. It was quiet, very quiet by helicopter standards and it was not your normal 'chop chop' sound but more of a whooshing, like a fan. The thing was somewhere around 500 ft I would say and it was going at a fair rate of knots - disappeared from view and out of earshot in a very short time.

Wonder what they were....

chopper2004
15th Aug 2012, 18:43
I guess your neighbours have a mil h pad according to my charts :) Hopefully not anywhere near the old GLCM bunker and launch tower on the base :)

chopper2004
21st Jun 2014, 07:33
Secret US 'Jedi' ghost-copters kept out of bin Laden raid ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/08/jedi_ghost_seal_copters/)

chopper2004
17th May 2015, 21:21
http://theaviationist.com/2015/05/17/stealth-black-hawk-helicopter-in-syria/

Cheers

Lonewolf_50
18th May 2015, 13:55
chopper, the author notes that little is known, and then embarks on a pile of speculation.

/tongue in cheek
And as we all know, Delta Force doesn't really exist
/tongue in cheek

Mechta
18th May 2015, 19:24
There's always the possibility in the OBL raid, that after the hit itself, a sizable piece of a redundant experimental helicopter was dropped on the site (maybe from one of the CH-47s reportedly involved in the raid) to:



Make an iconic photo opportunity of an otherwise pretty nondescript location.
Give other nations the impression that the Americans were further ahead with putting stealth helicopters into service than they really were.
Add a significant amount of 'wow-factor' to the story.
Establish the level of co-operation between the Pakistanis/Chinese and/or others, before the subsequent retrieval of the 'wreckage'.

The Americans would have been well aware that the wreckage would soon be inspected by knowledgable foreign parties, thus a film set type mock-up would have been rapidly outed. Whatever was left behind would have had to be pretty convincing.

chopper2004
19th May 2015, 16:04
@Lonewolf,

Lol, you mean the 303rd Logistical Studies Group led by Lt Col Tom Ryan a.k.a The Terminator with Snake Doctor, Betty Blue, Cool Breeze, Dirt Driver.

@Mechta,

Ref your synopsis on the MH-47E dropping a nice tail rotor got one thinking and found another related link by the Aviationist, w.r.t related matter below

The Aviationist » The Stealth Chinook involved in the Osama Bin Laden raid and why the Stealth Black Hawk crashed in Abbottabad (http://theaviationist.com/2011/05/18/mh-47x/)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/mh-47x3_zpso5mbgnhp.jpg

Cheers

Surplus
19th May 2015, 22:41
Google earth has some interesting past images at the Tarbela Dam airfield, some 60 clicks SW of Abbottabad. (Should Pakistan ever be implicated in assisting the raid and that the raid was announced prematurely after the loss of a helo during the op.) :hmm:

Surplus
20th May 2015, 15:12
What, nobody going to deny, ridicule?

Tourist
20th May 2015, 15:14
I'm more than willing to ridicule if I had any idea what you are on about.

Type with clarity and add links, and I promise to ridicule as requested.

Surplus
20th May 2015, 15:26
I apologise for my lack of clarity, your Google must be broken.

BossEyed
20th May 2015, 16:30
Ah, right. You give us a job and we all immediately rush off and do it to your satisfaction.

Seems fair enough.

Tourist
20th May 2015, 18:32
I'm willing to ridicule, but not interested in expending any effort in the process.

Seems like I'm in the majority.

Mechta
20th May 2015, 21:25
Chopper2004,

Thanks for the type correction (MH-47E).

I'll believe there is such a thing as a 'stealth Chinook' when I don't hear it.:}

As an idle thought, would a fuselage stretch to prevent the front/rear blade overlap, reduce the distinctive 'thump, thump, thump' that the Chinook produces?

chopper2004
8th Dec 2015, 11:39
Book Reveals New Details About Stealth Black Hawks Used In Bin Laden Raid (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/book-reveals-new-details-about-stealth-black-hawks-used-1734205517)

cheers

SASless
8th Dec 2015, 12:30
Making the Wokka Stealthy is easy....try doing that for the Huey!

Pontius Navigator
8th Dec 2015, 12:41
Mechta, as the tread has been resurected, you don't so much as hear a CH47 as feel it.

Same with the other big 'uns. Used to watch cattle vacate a target area long before you could see the helos.

chopper2004
7th Feb 2019, 10:50
Looks like the answer lies as far back as 4 decades ....


Origins Of Stealth Black Hawks Date Back Over 30 Years Before The Bin Laden Raid - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/25890/origins-of-stealth-black-hawks-date-back-over-33-years-before-the-bin-laden-raid)

intersting report dated as far back to 1978 titles ‘Structural Concepts And Aerodynamic Analysis For Low Radar Cross Section (LRCS) Fuselage Configurations’


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/1a8a63ef_6faa_44b6_a693_0f2ffb0ddad7_5f0a370bf27279de6353694 a320bb03a45eb6958.jpeg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/760x646/0f81aa85_5b72_4d60_8172_e5b15bcd742e_58165202b597b51c25b16d3 1d9b78dcf45231e3e.jpeg


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1098x775/0d6dd968_f613_4a62_9e16_bc2e0ad4a292_59efcd3f2b08ebbed0cdfe8 98a24e31a3a7349fe.jpeg

Lonewolf_50
7th Feb 2019, 22:03
Thanks for the update. Tyler must have done his homework, so good for him.

megan
7th Feb 2019, 22:44
Stealth helo has been around for a while.

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/233075-quiet-one-used-cia-mission-vietnam.html

tartare
8th Feb 2019, 01:23
Thing looks like a flying Zumwalt!
With a cross section like that - no wonder it handles like a pig...!

chopper2004
10th Feb 2019, 22:30
Stealth helo has been around for a while.

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/233075-quiet-one-used-cia-mission-vietnam.html

The Aviationist speculates that it could be conceivable also to have a L/O Little Bird and sets out how one could look like:

https://theaviationist.com/2011/05/25/a-stealth-little-bird/

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x620/07b29b03_3d9f_456e_bc39_bb5180682283_39bdc68121e3bb40a238aa4 652cb5abe3bde5569.jpeg
cheers

chopper2004
1st May 2019, 14:14
Just twigged on this day 8 years ago, Neptune Spear happened.

Cheers

Haraka
1st May 2019, 16:06
Just twigged on this day 8 years ago, Neptune Spear happened.

Cheers
And STILL no sign of the Stealth Blackhawk :)

melmothtw
1st May 2019, 16:35
And STILL no sign of the Stealth Blackhawk :)

That's kind of the point, no?

ORAC
18th Mar 2020, 08:31
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/03/17/legendary-special-operations-aviator-reveals-bin-laden-mission-details-for-the-first-time/

Exclusive: Legendary special operations aviator reveals bin Laden mission details for the first time

Tashengurt
18th Mar 2020, 21:42
I still think it was a handy excuse for Pakistan allowing the raid to happen.

MightyGem
18th Mar 2020, 21:48
Thanks for that, ORAC. Very impressive.

Lonewolf_50
18th Mar 2020, 21:53
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/03/17/legendary-special-operations-aviator-reveals-bin-laden-mission-details-for-the-first-time/

Exclusive: Legendary special operations aviator reveals bin Laden mission details for the first time From the article .....
Twice between 2013 and 2016, Englen was in hot pursuit of Iran’s Quds Force leader, Gen. Qassem Soleimani. But their order was “capture only.”
"It wasn’t ‘capture or kill,’ so if we couldn’t guarantee a capture, then we couldn’t take it to the next level,” Englen said. “But we were minutes behind him and his vehicles in Iraq, and we could’ve gotten him. But our rules of engagement was, 'capture only.’”
I suspected as much. I am both glad that my guess was correct, and disappointed that stuff like this is being discussed in open sources.

Haraka
24th May 2020, 18:23
",,,,,,,and STILL no sign of the Stealth Blackhawk https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif"
see my #181
And yet another year goes by................

ORAC
24th May 2020, 19:23
Over 20 years since the last flight of the SR-71 and no sight of the TR-3 or the Aurora or whatever made the soap-on-a-rope contrails far above the airways off the West coast...

gums
24th May 2020, 19:39
Salute!

Over 20 years since the last flight of the SR-71 and no sight of the TR-3 or the Aurora or whatever made the soap-on-a-rope contrails far above the airways off the West coast...

A great point, frequent poster. Been 9 years since the UBL raid, so guess there's been no effort to develop and field new, improved systems for covert and not so covert missions. We don't even know the exact configuration of the choppers used back then.

I wonder why the Guardian or Sun or NYT or WaPo doesn't have accurate scale diagrams of every bend and curve and angle on the platforms that the U.S. or any other country wishes to remain "secret". /sarc

And then the DuPont company or 3M could have their patent for their new, improved RAM coatings that have been developed and fielded since the late 70's and early 80's when one country seemed to have made a quantum leap in LO technology. Huh? Oooops, shouldn't have mentioned "quantum"....... Now waiting for the visit from men in black, sheesh....

Gums sends...

LowObservable
24th May 2020, 20:29
I could tell you, but then I'd have to use a horrible old cliche from a movie about shirtless male beach volleyball that had some airplanes in it.

What I learned over many years is that the Gummint is very good at keeping certain things secret. Also, given the rather large piles of cash that have gone into such things, compared to the visible results we have seen, either something else was produced that we don't know about or somebody's got some splainin to do about where the **** that money went.

Jamesel
24th May 2020, 20:35
The size of the money is hard to keep stealthy. The shapes it goes into can be several orders of magnitude harder to see.

gums
24th May 2020, 21:36
Salute!

Enjoying the banter, today. But let's not forget the meaning of the holiday, huh?

'Follow the money". Yep, that's how the Aurora thread got started, wasn't it?

The best bet to see where a neat project was in progress was to follow the construction $$$ at Tonopah in early 80's. Maybe not easy to find in the annual budget, but all those trucks and semi-tractors loaded with stuff had to be a clue if you had a trailer park closeby, huh? Groom Lake was well known by all of us by then, but we didn't know exactly what the platforms were flying there (except for the saucers), and only knew a few of the pilots. We also knew many of the Constant Peg folks and some of us actually flew against them to "learn" some things. The heavy traffic was at Tonopah for both Constant Peg as well as the F-117 outfit. Some folks thot Michael AAF at Dugway couild have been a player, but not me. I was flying in that area then and can tellya that the strip was bare bones and nothing was going on. Not so with Tonopah.

I still haven't figured out how you can make a helo "stealthy". Guess the wizards have been very successful last 30 years since I was close to the business.

Gums sends...

ORAC
24th May 2020, 22:23
:cool: :cool: :cool:

https://youtu.be/86OCvJAvsmE

tartare
24th May 2020, 22:53
I could tell you, but then I'd have to use a horrible old cliche from a movie about shirtless male beach volleyball that had some airplanes in it.

What I learned over many years is that the Gummint is very good at keeping certain things secret. Also, given the rather large piles of cash that have gone into such things, compared to the visible results we have seen, either something else was produced that we don't know about or somebody's got some splainin to do about where the **** that money went.

Indeed.
One fact remains.
That tail-rotor, stabilator and the colour of them wasn't like anything in the current inventory at all.
The tail rotor boss was clearly aimed at reducing radar reflectivity - anyone seen anything like that on a helicopter before?
And the photo wasn't a fake.
As Gums points out - many, many people knew something was going on at Tonapah quite early in the piece.
But images of the F-117 didn't make it into the media for a long time.
And today - we all know there's something called the B-21 being built - the iron bird's been finished for a while.
But can anyone yet show me a real photo of it yet?
I have no doubt that there is some kind of LO Blackhawk or something similar - albeit in very small numbers...

Fonsini
25th May 2020, 08:54
I always found this to be the most likely preview of things to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSGLBb3k80U

chopper2004
25th May 2020, 17:32
I always found this to be the most likely preview of things to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSGLBb3k80U

Flying doritos more like LRS-B fly off a.k.a L-M and Boeing tad annoyed with decision to purchase Northrop B-21 Raider

cheers

gums
25th May 2020, 19:03
Salute!

Don't think so, Fonz....

If you can see it and get a photo, then it must be intentional subterfuge, and we have to keep folks looking for ghosts. Huh?

Gums sends...

chopper2004
25th May 2020, 20:07
Over 20 years since the last flight of the SR-71 and no sight of the TR-3 or the Aurora or whatever made the soap-on-a-rope contrails far above the airways off the West coast...

Thing is though laughingly about Aurora, it was few years ago L-M announced SR-72 development

https://www.airforce-technology.com/features/feature-lockheed-martin-unveils-sr-72-successor-sr-71-spy-plane/

https://www.businessinsider.com/sr-72-lockheed-martin-hinted-may-already-exist-2018-1?r=US&IR=T

Then retracted the idea..

https://www.flightglobal.com/singapore-lockheeds-carvalho-kiboshes-sr-72-idea/127007.article

unmanned_droid
26th May 2020, 13:21
I still think that they were just mod-heavy uh60s, maybe with a completely different tailboom as that would be relatively easy to change out.

Lonewolf_50
27th May 2020, 02:53
I still think that they were just mod-heavy uh60s, maybe with a completely different tailboom as that would be relatively easy to change out. Define what you mean by 'relatively easy' about UH-60 Tail boom replacement.

unmanned_droid
27th May 2020, 13:06
Define what you mean by 'relatively easy' about UH-60 Tail boom replacement.


Easier than designing a stealth/low observable utility helicopter from scratch, or massively modifying a UH-60 to represent some of the artist illustrations in this thread.

Being a design engineer, my assumption is that the process would be along the lines of cost/benefit analysis of varying degrees of modification.

The technical complexity of altering the forward fuselage structure around the cabin, engines, and transmission for low observability to any great degree would be unappealing. Whereas, treating the rotor heads to some radar absorbent hats, and maybe putting radar absorbent mats over the cabin windows on the other hand seems an easy win. Design and rapid prototype/manufacture of a tailboom specifically with low observability in mind sits somewhere between the two.

Lonewolf_50
27th May 2020, 14:42
Easier than designing a stealth/low observable utility helicopter from scratch, or massively modifying a UH-60 to represent some of the artist illustrations in this thread.
OK.
Being a design engineer, my assumption is that the process would be along the lines of cost/benefit analysis of varying degrees of modification.
In particular for the tail rotor changes, as one starts adding weight way back there at the end of the tail the W&B and Vibe issues that crop up can be a bugger. Though likely achievable.
... treating the rotor heads to some radar absorbent hats, and maybe putting radar absorbent mats over the cabin windows on the other hand seems an easy win.
Design and rapid prototype/manufacture of a tailboom specifically with low observability in mind sits somewhere between the two
I am thinking that the whole tail boom would a be bit more than needed, given your point on the rest of the airframe.
Maybe only the last bit, aft of the intermediate gear box (significant changes in shape and reflective geometry back there already) but the point I refer to above in re the W&B and vibes would take some sorting out. (Though achievable if one has the budget).

tartare
27th May 2020, 23:57
To what degree does the fuse skin on the Blackhawk transmit loads?
I assume it's an integral load bearing part of the airframe, and you couldn't simply `re-skin' a standard UH-60 with some exotic RAM material and add a few rotor hats etc.
The other thing that is very odd about the photo is the tail-rotor blades.
Even taking into account that weird coolie hat that sits on it - the blades looked shorter than a standard UH-60 tail-rotor.
The stabilator was also not a standard UH-60 one.
I'm as cynical as the next punter, but in this case, I do think there's some substance to the story.
Have a look at HaveBlue, Tacit Blue and some of the other weird predecessors to the F-117 and B-2.
Landing gear from an F-5, engines from a T-2C - FBW from F-16.
Noting that rotorcraft are in some senses an order of magnitude more complex than fixed wing aircraft, surely It's still possible to build something quite unusual in small numbers - using off the shelf components - landing gear, transmission, rotor system engines, avionics.
If it proved to be stable and reliable enough - one might even consider using it as a tactical advantage on such a mission...

unmanned_droid
28th May 2020, 01:48
OK.
In particular for the tail rotor changes, as one starts adding weight way back there at the end of the tail the W&B and Vibe issues that crop up can be a bugger. Though likely achievable.
.

I am thinking that the whole tail boom would a be bit more than needed, given your point on the rest of the airframe.
Maybe only the last bit, aft of the intermediate gear box (significant changes in shape and reflective geometry back there already) but the point I refer to above in re the W&B and vibes would take some sorting out. (Though achievable if one has the budget).


Assuming the dynamics of the rotor system are maintained (including the effect of the fruit bowls) then the issue is one of airframe stiffness. Matching the stiffness of the structure you are replacing, or, at least not negatively impacting it, preserves the existing response. Computationally this is pretty trivial to calculate even by hand so I don't see that as an issue, and I am thinking in 2005 terms for software tools. I would suggest looking towards the ACCA/X-55A (https://www.compositesworld.com/columns/advanced-composite-cargo-aircraft-proves-large-structure-practicality) as an example of how this kind of modification can be achieved on a larger scale than the tailboom of a UH-60 variant.

I do take your point about the extent of the mod not needing to be the entire tail boom. I looked at the UH60 and it seems that for a non-Naval variant, the easiest place to split the airframe is at the panel line just aft of the exhausts, where the contours change. You would be able to maintain the tail rotor torque tube positioning and layout. It occurred to me whilst looking at photos and drawings that if you parts binned the airframe, you could use a Naval variant tail which would allow you to develop just the parts aft of the fold point.

In terms of how and where these mods were carried out, you'd obviously need tooling and jigs. There are re-configurable fixturing systems out there, like Meccano for grown ups. I've used it to prove out robotics systems on commercial airline sized wings, and I know it has been used for much much more besides. You could keep that all in-house, no need to get any heavy steel people involved for jigs other than some laser cut plates, besides just buying the meccano kit. I imagine that there are discrete facilities in the US that could accommodate and carry out all this mod work without issue.

As ever with low observables you have to decide what you want to achieve before you get going. Do you want to just reduce detection range a bit or a lot? do you just want to confuse radar computers by presenting a signature that won't be in anyone's data? what frequency ranges do you want to optimise for? I'll admit that the tailboom is not likely to be giving that great of a signature in comparison to the rotating parts or the cabin returns through the windows. But it does seem the most appealing on cost/benefit to me.

The handling qualities, weight and power are referred to negatively more than once in discussions around this mission. This suggests that there could be changes to both rotor systems to reduce signature at the expense of performance, and that there is obviously a load more weight (either because they were over filled or because they were covered in older RAM? or, more likely both! ).

I don't think anyone would produce a dog from scratch to be the taxi for the guys at the tip of the spear. That doesn't sit well with me.

IFMU
28th May 2020, 03:01
Matching the stiffness of the structure you are replacing, or, at least not negatively impacting it, preserves the existing response. Computationally this is pretty trivial to calculate even by hand so I don't see that as an issue, and I am thinking in 2005 terms for software tools.
The easiest way to avoid a structural resonance with one of the N/rev frequencies is to have your engineers design the structure to hit it. In my experience, including through 2005, is that it is not that easy!

To what degree does the fuse skin on the Blackhawk transmit loads?
The Blackhawk structure is very conventional semi-monocoque construction. The skin definitely transmits loads, especially in the tailcone.

Nige321
4th Aug 2020, 21:09
Don't shoot the messenger... :cool:
Link to the story... (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35342/this-is-the-first-image-ever-of-a-stealthy-black-hawk-helicopter?fbclid=IwAR1YE1cW1gQkz0i2-_1zZlLOmxLEJ4hi88XmE5NT0IvVozxq8iKnD-46ua8)

We are constantly on the lookout for more details about the U.S. military's highly elusive stealthy Back Hawk helicopters, one of which famously crashed during the raid (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32618/a-pakistani-f-16-engaged-one-of-the-mh-47g-chinooks-three-times-during-bin-laden-raid) that led to the death of Al Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden in 2011, as well as any possible predecessors that predated them.

Now, what appears to be a previously unpublished picture has come to our attention that shows a heavily modified EH-60 electronic warfare and signals intelligence variant of the Black Hawk.
Is seems to be, at the very least, one of the missing links connecting the unique Black Hawk helicopters used on the Bin Laden raid and stealthy Black Hawk design concepts (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/25890/origins-of-stealth-black-hawks-date-back-over-33-years-before-the-bin-laden-raid) dating back to the 1970s.

It is our understanding that the picture in question seen at the top of this story and again below in a slightly enhanced manner, has a relation to Fort Eustis in Virginia.

In addition to being home to 128th Aviation Brigade, previously known as the U.S. Army Aviation Logistics School, Fort Eustis' Felker Army Airfield it also hosts a unit commonly known as the Flight Concepts Division (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11082/it-looks-like-the-armys-most-secretive-aviation-unit-needs-a-new-home) (FCD), that is now called the Aviation Technology Office (ATO).

This is the unit understood to be responsible for leading the development of the stealth Black Hawks used during the Bin Laden raid and many of the U.S. Army's most advanced and secretive rotary-wing capabilities.




https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1441x797/52523f_0e15b8adda2dd7b758bea8c7b2d7cd5803a0a7cb.jpg

Lonewolf_50
4th Aug 2020, 21:48
Just out of curiosity, why the round (cross section) external fuel tank rather than one with different angles? Also, the tail rotor in that photo does not align with some of the pictures from the 2011 raid, so perhaps that photo is the old "this is a work in progress" deal.

sandiego89
5th Aug 2020, 17:55
Just out of curiosity, why the round (cross section) external fuel tank rather than one with different angles? Also, the tail rotor in that photo does not align with some of the pictures from the 2011 raid, so perhaps that photo is the old "this is a work in progress" deal.

Perhaps because non stealthy round tanks could be jettisoned before reduced cross section was really needed on certain missions? External tanks are rarely jettisoned, but for a a really high profile mission such as Eagle Claw or OBL raid maybe tanks could be jettisoned before reaching the higher threat target area. Maybe even the whole stores pylon could be jettisoned? I do agree with you this has the appearance of a development bird, with incremental bits and bobs being trialed.

Interesting possible link to Felker Field at Ft. Eustis. Usually a pretty sleepy field but always with some interesting relics from various 1960's and 1970's rotor projects dumped about the field and a few preserved on base, such as the high speed compound Huey's and others. It was neat to drive around and see some surprises. The transportation museum there is worth a visit, with great Army aviation pavilion, and a few more aircraft inside, including the crazy single solider VTOL experiments.

hoodie
5th Aug 2020, 18:48
How fascinating! The background doesn't look like Virginia. Perhaps Groom Lake, TTR or Edwards North?

It's a strange combination of presumably low observable features (nose, MRH, engine inlets and exhaust...) and high signature elements (pylons, antennas, tail rotor...) I wonder if it is a re-used signature experiment after that work was complete?

Lonewolf_50
6th Aug 2020, 15:47
Interesting possible link to Felker Field at Ft. Eustis. Usually a pretty sleepy field but always with some interesting relics from various 1960's and 1970's rotor projects dumped about the field and a few preserved on base, such as the high speed compound Huey's and others. It was neat to drive around and see some surprises. Hmm, we used to bounce there. SH-2's back in the 80's, and IIRC we used to pick up their PAR for training flights. Just north of there on the James River was what we called the Ghost Fleet. Dozens of very old ships, most of them supply and support ships, parked at an achorage against the need to take them out of mothballs and use them to move material across the Atlantic. I think that was eventually disposed of a while back; made for an interesting set of targets radar training flights for our new aircrewmen.

chopper2004
7th Aug 2020, 07:21
How fascinating! The background doesn't look like Virginia. Perhaps Groom Lake, TTR or Edwards North?

It's a strange combination of presumably low observable features (nose, MRH, engine inlets and exhaust...) and high signature elements (pylons, antennas, tail rotor...) I wonder if it is a re-used signature experiment after that work was complete?

Judging from the fence in the background and the terrain, I do not think it’s Groom Lake or TTR or Edwards but could be Libby Army Airfield at Fort Huachuca (Home Inscom training and airborne SiGINt / ELINT) , as we talking about EH-60A.

below is Libby AAF and mountains behind are not as high as Groom or Edwards..


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/acc0f391_34b8_4d99_ba55_a9b80f2c6891_0a284a8bc2947b342eec719 523b2248a557f8f32.jpeg

cheers

unmanned_droid
9th Aug 2020, 12:22
Perhaps because non stealthy round tanks could be jettisoned before reduced cross section was really needed on certain missions? External tanks are rarely jettisoned, but for a a really high profile mission such as Eagle Claw or OBL raid maybe tanks could be jettisoned before reaching the higher threat target area. Maybe even the whole stores pylon could be jettisoned? I do agree with you this has the appearance of a development bird, with incremental bits and bobs being trialed.

Interesting possible link to Felker Field at Ft. Eustis. Usually a pretty sleepy field but always with some interesting relics from various 1960's and 1970's rotor projects dumped about the field and a few preserved on base, such as the high speed compound Huey's and others. It was neat to drive around and see some surprises. The transportation museum there is worth a visit, with great Army aviation pavilion, and a few more aircraft inside, including the crazy single solider VTOL experiments.

This was a kit specifically developed for EH-60A DFE. It was found impractical enough that a lot of the applique was not used in the first gulf war. The forward hemisphere was considered most important so the parts applied to the tailboom were removed first (also noting vibe issues as we discussed previously). Looks like the aircraft had RAM coatings.

I am a member of a different forum that has some contributors that keep track of these sorts of things. This photo was first found on the net over a decade ago, and was also posted in another forum where more details on the project were shared (purported to be from the test manager who organised for this photo to be taken - I think this is Edwards as there is another photo of another aircraft which shows this aircraft in the background.) and that there were similar projects for other types of helo, the OH-58 kit being the most well known, but there were aspirations for a similar type of kit for Apache).

I implied Ft Eustis / FTD (or whatever they're called now) in my previous post regarding discrete facilities, but apparently this was all done between Edwards and Sikorsky.

This is what they were doing in the 80s.

There's a comment in a book about Neptune Spear saying something along the lines of: "I turned a corner and laughed, said to the guys, it's alright, we'll be fine, the air force has given us decepticons to fly in"

chopper2004
10th Aug 2020, 01:10
This was a kit specifically developed for EH-60A DFE. It was found impractical enough that a lot of the applique was not used in the first gulf war. The forward hemisphere was considered most important so the parts applied to the tailboom were removed first (also noting vibe issues as we discussed previously). Looks like the aircraft had RAM coatings.

I am a member of a different forum that has some contributors that keep track of these sorts of things. This photo was first found on the net over a decade ago, and was also posted in another forum where more details on the project were shared (purported to be from the test manager who organised for this photo to be taken - I think this is Edwards as there is another photo of another aircraft which shows this aircraft in the background.) and that there were similar projects for other types of helo, the OH-58 kit being the most well known, but there were aspirations for a similar type of kit for Apache).

I implied Ft Eustis / FTD (or whatever they're called now) in my previous post regarding discrete facilities, but apparently this was all done between Edwards and Sikorsky.

This is what they were doing in the 80s.

There's a comment in a book about Neptune Spear saying something along the lines of: "I turned a corner and laughed, said to the guys, it's alright, we'll be fine, the air force has given us decepticons to fly in"

Thanks, very insightful and like the quip with decpticons...guess did not mean a Page Low IV pulled out of retirement or the dead lol if anyone has watched Transformers movie opening. Or perhaps meant the CV-22 Osprey which was also in the opening of the film ..

Not having read the book as yet , be very interesting and will find that one liner...however if ‘Air Force’ term used then maybe it was not army Nightstalkers operating the stealth hawk But it AFSOC all along.

Slightly digressing ...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35535/night-stalker-mh-47-emerges-with-mystery-modifications-during-training-in-colorado


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/296dbdd6_d09d_41e3_9e80_9dd14ea211fd_7170531f014bffba009a193 566c962712a7ca2d3.jpeg

NSDQ..

cheers

unmanned_droid
10th Aug 2020, 13:55
Yes, that's an interesting set of equipment. That G Chinook has lived a life.

Also, always good to see a Thundercats logo!

I have found the quote, sorry, not in a book but a long esquire article.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a26351/man-who-shot-osama-bin-laden-0313/

You can search for decepticon or its about 1/3rd down the page. Otherwise its a pretty good article. The article's real angle is the lack of support for verterans post service which is real and warranted in my opinion.

NutLoose
10th Aug 2020, 15:45
The Stealth helicopter was flown in under a Chinook and deliberately destroyed to send Russian and Chinese designers down the wrong research path for decades. ;)

NutLoose
10th Aug 2020, 15:52
Tin foil hats at the ready:

Is This a Super-Secret Stealth Helicopter … Or a Hollywood Fake? (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/08/movie-prop-or-stealth)

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2012/08/blurred-660x495.jpg

(Movie link here (http://www.zerodarkthirty-movie.com/))

I/C

FAKE, shadow near right wheel casting to the right, shadows on boxes behind casting the opposite direction.

Tashengurt
10th Aug 2020, 17:01
The Stealth helicopter was flown in under a Chinook and deliberately destroyed to send Russian and Chinese designers down the wrong research path for decades. ;)

I still say it was planted to get Pakistan off the hook for allowing the op to go ahead unhindered.

Haraka
11th Aug 2020, 06:48
Tashengurt. I have been suggesting this as a possibility for years. (Including early posts on this forum).

hoodie
11th Aug 2020, 09:35
There's zero evidence for that, and it would be an extraordinary - and totally unnecessary - risk during an already high risk operation.

The suggestion really doesn't stand up in any sense at all.

chopper2004
3rd May 2021, 11:03
Decade on and we are still none the wiser ...best kept secret since the F-117A,

https://theaviationist.com/2021/05/02/stealth-black-hawk-new-rendering/


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/678x381/9317ac5d_7bf9_4816_8f5a_920bcd4d1a39_549a4efffe6ed927d0e496e e0aaaa8dd9e1c82c0.jpeg

Tashengurt
3rd May 2021, 11:21
Decade on and we are still none the wiser ...best kept secret since the F-117A,

https://theaviationist.com/2021/05/02/stealth-black-hawk-new-rendering/


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/678x381/9317ac5d_7bf9_4816_8f5a_920bcd4d1a39_549a4efffe6ed927d0e496e e0aaaa8dd9e1c82c0.jpeg
Not even a reverse engineered Chinese copy.
I still say it was a red herring to let Pakistan off the hook for allowing the raid to go ahead.

Less Hair
3rd May 2021, 11:39
All we know is this tail part was left.
https://images.app.goo.gl/g8r7DyFDqVcgixRZ6

I never got why the rest of the aircraft should be so close to some pretty standard Blackhawk? If it is intended to be stealthy wouldn't the entire airframe need to be designed in some more radical way?

West Coast
3rd May 2021, 16:07
Not even a reverse engineered Chinese copy.
I still say it was a red herring to let Pakistan off the hook for allowing the raid to go ahead.

Do you have anything beyond your opinion to back this?

unmanned_droid
3rd May 2021, 17:12
Decade on and we are still none the wiser ...best kept secret since the F-117A,

https://theaviationist.com/2021/05/02/stealth-black-hawk-new-rendering/


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/678x381/9317ac5d_7bf9_4816_8f5a_920bcd4d1a39_549a4efffe6ed927d0e496e e0aaaa8dd9e1c82c0.jpeg

It's a good probability that they've been buried in the desert by now and replaced with something else.

Ewan Whosearmy
3rd May 2021, 21:50
I still say it was a red herring to let Pakistan off the hook for allowing the raid to go ahead.

I don't think so. I have a friend who saw two of them in a hangar in Afghanistan in the hours leading up the mission.

chopper2004
31st May 2021, 07:54
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40853/stealthy-variant-of-chinas-z-20-black-hawk-clone-emerges-in-concept-model-form?fbclid=IwAR0oe_NIx1pzP-08CIkqf-h5qd9lHF9sF5gRrD_20TCnYFA8xOWWB3YN4b8


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x481/ce6831f4_239e_4d29_8010_1745b170c866_8ea029185a171cc276c0f57 f6d86546da4e148ae.jpeg

TEEEJ
11th Sep 2021, 19:10
Some details of the stealthy Black Hawks from a new programme on Sky History channel.

Title:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14574560/

Revealed: The Hunt for Bin Laden

Lead Planner and Captain, US Navy SEAL.

"As the briefs went through the chain of command there was a sensitivity expressed on exposure to radars and discovery of the helicopters as the force was infiltrating. That shifted the conversation to using the Black Hawks that had some of the capabilities to defeat radar."


Command Master Chief, US Navy SEAL Team Six

"Very early on when we got out and saw them fly they were unstable, particularly when they came into hover and I said with all due respect I don't think that we should use these helicopters. The time to try something new is not on the most important raid arguably since WW2."


Lead Planner and Captain, US Navy SEAL.

"Another one of the factors that we had to take into account was that the aircrews flying the Black Hawks had been separate programme and didn't have a lot of time flying overseas."


Admiral McCraven, Commander Joint Special Operations Command

"..... those particular crews had been taken out of the fight for quite a while and really had just been part of research."

Tashengurt
13th Sep 2021, 07:49
Do you have anything beyond your opinion to back this?

Absolutely not.

ORAC
13th Sep 2021, 10:25
Absolutely not.
:}:D

https://youtu.be/vp_WfB2yKD4

sandiego89
13th Sep 2021, 16:34
Some details of the stealthy Black Hawks from a new programme on Sky History channel.

Title:


Revealed: The Hunt for Bin Laden

Lead Planner and Captain, US Navy SEAL.

"As the briefs went through the chain of command there was a sensitivity expressed on exposure to radars and discovery of the helicopters as the force was infiltrating. That shifted the conversation to using the Black Hawks that had some of the capabilities to defeat radar."


Command Master Chief, US Navy SEAL Team Six

"Very early on when we got out and saw them fly they were unstable, particularly when they came into hover and I said with all due respect I don't think that we should use these helicopters. The time to try something new is not on the most important raid arguably since WW2."


Lead Planner and Captain, US Navy SEAL.

"Another one of the factors that we had to take into account was that the aircrews flying the Black Hawks had been separate programme and didn't have a lot of time flying overseas."


Admiral McCraven, Commander Joint Special Operations Command

"..... those particular crews had been taken out of the fight for quite a while and really had just been part of research."

Sounds like some of the lessons from Eagle Claw which I just re-read were weighed and considered as acceptable risk, or forgotten. Two of the six or so major lessons from Eagle Claw were not to use helicopter crews that had not been part of, or well integrated, into the team beforehand, and not be overly complex.... Guess stealth/surprise was deemed more important than some lessons. Salute to the folks that carried it out.

Haraka
13th Sep 2021, 18:02
Absolutely not.
And any hard evidence to demolish Tashengurt's Occam's razor assessment? ( and mine from 2011 incidentally)

RAFEngO74to09
15th Sep 2023, 00:47
More here on the stealth specials - there were two - air quality inside the compound affecting lift available - pilot that managed to do the heavy landing had 6,000 hours on UH-60s

There was a forward refueling area in Pakistan for the return leg and that's where the backup helo for the extraction came from.

From 6:50 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmh70JEeZEo

unmanned_droid
15th Sep 2023, 02:12
The forward refuelling area was visible on google maps for a while - with resident US helis of various types. I think it's safe to assume 160th SOAR and their friends were familiar with it.

chopper2004
20th Sep 2023, 14:22
https://www.sandboxx.us/news/airpower/the-origins-of-the-socoms-stealth-black-hawk-helicopters/

https://www.sandboxx.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/TIMELINE-PLUS-HAVE-GLASS-1024x541.jpg

cheers

212man
20th Sep 2023, 14:39
Which Syria raid is that?

T28B
20th Sep 2023, 18:18
https://www.sandboxx.us/news/airpower/the-origins-of-the-socoms-stealth-black-hawk-helicopters/ cheers In the posted picture, the 2014 "Syria raid" silhouette suggests that the stealth Blackhawk has retractable gear.
Interesting, if true, although that may simply be a bit of artistic license.

212man
20th Sep 2023, 19:12
In the posted picture, the 2014 "Syria raid" silhouette suggests that the stealth Blackhawk has retractable gear.
Interesting, if true, although that may simply be a bit of artistic license.
I think all the images of the ones used in the OBL raid also had retractable gear - pretty much stealth 101 I’d say.

Davef68
21st Sep 2023, 09:44
Which Syria raid is that?

The only 2014 one I can think of in the public domain was the attempt to rescue James Foley