Applying for a new AOC

[Dark Warrior]

Hi All,

Im looking into applying for a new Charter/Airwork AOC and wondering if anyone has any experience in this area and some of the gotcha's that have caught people out when applying.

DW

[dhavillandpilot]

In this present climate of CASA are you mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Having personally been involved with four AOC's over my career I wonder at the sanity of new entrants.

If I was to ever do it again I would go to New Zealand, get the AOC and then use the blind provisions of cross Tasman politics to operate in Australia. Just look at Pioneer and Vincent Aviation - both used this route much to the chagrin of the CASA people.

If you are still certain you want to go down the AOC track - go and buy a PTY LTD company that holds an AOC.

What ever you do I wish you the best of luck and hope you have endless patience and of course wads of cash.

[Widewoodenwingswork]

Dark Warrior, don't listen to the naysayers.
CASA really are there to help you and will go out of their way to make the process as smooth and simple as possible. You shouldn't have to wait very long (maybe 2 weeks if your paperwork is mostly in check, they will usually let a few things slide to help you get started) as they are a very efficiently run Government Department, certainly one of the better public service arms in Australia.
I am sure I speak on behalf of everyone here at PPRuNe when I wish you well in your endeavour to add to the wonderfully friendly and healthy community that is Australian General Aviation. Warmest Regards!

[Dark Warrior]

Thanks for the feedback, i knew it would be tough but wasnt expecting this :ooh:

Thanks again

DW

[bilbert]

6 to 9 months, up to $10'000, elevated stress levels, probable divorce and you'll end up with an approval to commit an offence. Go for it!.

[bizzybody]

6k and 6-8 weeks for a basic ME charter with 1 or 2 twins

[Bic4Pen]

Last time I did it, we were looking at about $9k.

We had a good application with "living" manuals and a good CP candidate :}

Try to make it a good application and make sure you have most of the types you will foreseeably need - variations are low priority and can take forever.

...recently took one operator I know 12 weeks to add a Partenavia to an AOC which already had C421:ugh:

[aroa]

Wonder what planet WWWW lives on....??

CASA hasnt changed that much in 20 years....and I speak from experience

Then with business plan, $$s in the bank, many years of aviating experience, and all the paperwork as required a good friend of mine applied for a charter AOC for a tourist venture

I wont bore you with all the gruesome details, but whether the local infamous office was either lazy and incompetant, deciding that no more AOCs should exist in the already busy region, or protecting mates operations from further competition , we'll never know.

After 8 months he went political and 5 months later he had an AOC.
By this time after feeding a family, driving buses to survive he is nearly broke.
So much for all the CASA bs requiremnts re yr financial viability to operate and maintain an aircraft.

When his cross-hired Cherokee 6 was not available at short notice for a charter and a Cessna 206 was...the business was lost because CASA said that it would take 2 weeks to remove one and 2 months to put the other on the AOC. And this is for a CPL that says you can fly any aeroplane up 5700KG. Which proves the point that the AOC is a "work permit" and a commercial stop/go mechanism. Why no "cover note" until they do the paperwork.???
And if a business suffers.. do these leeches give a tuppenny fcuk.! No way.

And so it went, and finally with a severe downturn in tourism, he called it quits.
Very much the poorer and wiser, now a seriously confirmed CASA hater, and now a happy NON aviator.

Sound familiar...!
So goeth GA.:\

[Tinstaafl]

Once upon a time AOCs used to list SE <5700kg as group. No dicking around adding or removing SE types. May also have been an equivalent for ME <5700kg but can't remember now. Can anyone point to a safety increase as a result of having to have types listed separately?

[Horatio Leafblower]

Tinny my AOC lists the twins by model for CHTR and AWK, but the singles as SPEA<5700kg.

When his cross-hired Cherokee 6 was not available at short notice for a charter and a Cessna 206 was...the business was lost because CASA said that it would take 2 weeks to remove one and 2 months to put the other on the AOC.

...maybe you should bore us with the gruesome details, because this doesn't sound right to me :suspect:

[Tinstaafl]

They must have zig-zagged back again. Last time I was involved with an AOC all singles had to be listed separately. Time before that it was a <5700kg group.

[185skywagon]

Ours (new format) is a blanket "under 5700kg" listing for charter and airwork.

[Tinstaafl]

Is that SE and ME? Or SE only? Either way, it's more sensible than listing types individually.

[185skywagon]

Our is SE only and includes turbine for the aerial application side of the show.

[Tinstaafl]

Coincidently an Oz mob have a PDF of their AOC available on their website. It lists SE by type instead of group for CHTR. Mind you, their current PDF (as of last night) is for an AOC that lapsed last year. Oops....and maybe when it was issued was prior to the current group vs type policy?

[aroa]

Leaf Blower.... 2 months, nothing How about seven!

After a final ops inspection for a CHTR amendment to the AOC, the go ahead promise is within 48 hr on receipt of invoices to prove purchases of a new First Aid Kit and a Cargo Net .. duly sent.
Never heard from that SOB again, and when I contacted that office,... "away", "off sick", "not in today".. whatever.
I did follow thru to BNE and after a torrid call, one of many, I actually got an apology from someone who finalized the deal. (Newbie in the office, obviously)
But after all that time the business opportunity was L-O-N-G gone.

During that seven months the file had sat on two desks for 6 weeks while the
"staff persons" (#@!!&**%!!) had been on leave or whatever.
How on earth is any business in this country supposed to survive when the monopoly "provider" has such piss poor sevice? re paperwork. Again ... why no "cover note", so you can get on with the business of trying to stay in business, while THEY finalize their bloody paperwork!

I saw a recent article in Aust Flying titled, Australian needs aviation entepreneurs... Oh yeah.!

The sad thing is that the type of people that have a sinecure / secure job in a bureaucracy are NON enterprenuerial types themselves, otherwise they wouldnt be there, shuffling paper, pushing pens and BS.

So you dont know whether the inordinate delays are due to laziness, incompetance, dont want any more Chtr ops, but cant say so outright, or protecting a mate from futher competition, or they just diont give a rats ar$e. Problem bilong u.
And to the detriment of GA all round. That's why GA is in the state its in today.

We did put different types that we may operate in the Ops application, but were told you can only have what you've got.
I found out afterwards an ex CASA/chtr person had just about every aircraft known to man in his Ops manuaul... so HE woiuld never suffer any hold ups due paperwork.

But thats CASA for ya.. different strokes for different folks.
Inconsistencies abound.!!

And one of the gruesome details... when they asked for a flight test... and this is with a very experienced pilot, remember,.. he gets off work, hires an aircraft, puts the fuel in, lodges a flight plan... and the CASA bum never showed up.! Not once but TWICE. And not even the decency of a phone call.

So the Industry really does have to ask... just what is the agenda here, when these fools are playing with peoples' livelihoods and financial well-being.

For their amusement???:D

[ding duck]

Dark warrior, my mate and I applied for and were granted a se-vfr aoc last year. We were told by casa it would take 6 months for simple charter and air work, ended up taking 9 months and $10,000. Operations manual was written in conjunction with an existing operator and amended to suit our needs. Already approved by casa yet they sent me pages and pages of unnecessary amendments, none of which were safety or operational issues, rather many were the personal opinion of the foi. It is a frustrating process but it is still possible if you have the time, the determination and also the cash to keep your head above water whilst you wait. Pm me if you want more info or have any questions.

[notmyC150v2]

If you are really that desperate to throw your money away, pm me and I will give you my bank account details. I can promise you that you will never see your money again and have nothing to show for it but with less stress and no time wasted...

[601]

Already approved by casa
OMs are NOT approved by CASA. They are only accepted. T&C Manuals (or the T&C system) require approval.

Part 137 aerial application manuals are a slightly different story.

[Centaurus]

Dark Warrior. Check your Personal Messages.

Cent