Bin Laden Dead [Archive]

taxydual

2nd May 2011, 06:21

Hmm, perhaps not the Government per se. However, who controls their Intelligence Service, the ISI? Who's side are they on?

Admittedly from Wikipedia, but......

(2010) A new report by the London School of Economics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_School_of_Economics) (LSE) claimed to provide the most concrete evidence yet that the ISI is providing funding, training and sanctuary to the Taliban insurgency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_insurgency) on a scale much larger than previously thought. The report's author Matt Waldman (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Matt_Waldman&action=edit&redlink=1) spoke to nine Taliban field commanders in Afghanistan and concluded that Pakistan's relationship with the insurgents ran far deeper than previously realised. Some of those interviewed suggested that the organization even attended meetings of the Taliban's supreme council, the Quetta Shura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetta_Shura).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence#cite_note-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence#cite_note-12)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence#cite_note-13) A spokesman for the Pakistani military dismissed the report, describing it as "malicious".[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence#cite_note-14)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence#cite_note-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence#cite_note-16) General David Petraeus, commander of the US Central Command, refused to endorse this report in US congressional hearing and suggested that any contacts between ISI and extremists are for legitimate intelligence purposes, in his words “you have to have contact with bad guys to get intelligence on bad guys”.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence#cite_note-17)

0497

2nd May 2011, 06:32

Complete details:

Obama Gives Order, Bin Laden Is Killed: White House Time Line - Political Punch (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/05/obama-gives-order-bin-laden-is-killed-white-house-time-line.html)

Helicopter raid maybe from Jalalabad? (distance to Abottabad = 135nm). US only notified the Pakistanis AFTER it occurred.

The Old Fat One

2nd May 2011, 06:41

Bravo Zulu Uncle Sam

BEagle

2nd May 2011, 07:03

Congratulations to all those involved in eliminating that worthless piece of ****!

In particular, the Special Forces who prosecuted the successful attack without loss or injury to themselves.

KeyPilot

2nd May 2011, 07:03

Great news - congratulations to our US colleagues. Through their professionalism and bravery their operation has achieved an ourstanding result.

I'm very interested to hear the details of the operation once released.

I would bet this was the reason for the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge delaying their honeymoon, as someone above suggested.

Grabbers

2nd May 2011, 07:04

Omg! Obl rip?

Finningley Boy

2nd May 2011, 07:16

I wonder where and when the Funeral will be? And will his final resting place be kept a great big secret so it doesn't become a shrine for his followers?!:confused:

FB:)

zondaracer

2nd May 2011, 07:28

As a former member of the US military and US intelligence community and having worked directly with USSOCOM, today makes me proud of the work I did, the people with whom I worked, and also thankful of all those involved including the ISAF partner nations. My brother in law is a Special Forces Captain and is currently deployed in Afghanistan as well.

Hoorah!

0497

2nd May 2011, 07:30

Bin Laden was buried at sea.

Osama Bin Laden Body Headed for Burial at Sea, Officials Say - The Note (http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-body-headed-for-burial-at-sea-officials-say.html)

... leaving no definitive location for the final resting place of his body.

Finningley Boy

2nd May 2011, 07:41

Well bang goes my theory that he was masquerading as the Manager of a Kebab Shop in Preston.:(

FB:)

Wirbelsturm

2nd May 2011, 07:58

Well bang goes my theory that he was masquerading as the Manager of a Kebab Shop in Preston.

Was that the one between the Undertakers and the Vets? I always did think the kebabs tasted stranger than normal!

:E

Finally good riddance. Sadly stand by for the usual ranting repercussions.

high spirits

2nd May 2011, 08:05

As they say.....'Insh'allah'.

Trim Stab

2nd May 2011, 08:33

Bin Laden was buried at sea.

He'll get a thorough autopsy first. The CIA will want to establish whether their intelligence about his state of health was correct.

Stu666

2nd May 2011, 09:02

I fail to see the connection between HRH's delayed honeymoon and OBL being dispatched in Pakistan? :confused:

minigundiplomat

2nd May 2011, 09:32

If his resting place is likely to become a shrine for his followers, why not plant him in a minefield?

0497

2nd May 2011, 09:37

More questions than answers.

The large luxurious bin Laden compound was located in a neighborhood near the Pakistan Military Academy

Melchett01

2nd May 2011, 09:50

Finningley Boy,

I don't think it is worthy to suggest the Pakistani Government were somehow in collaboration with Mr Obama, sorry Osama, a similar point could be made about our country and all the radical loony toons and their misguided apologists

Side stepping Labour's obsession with multiculturalism and the inevitable support that gave to some of our own more extremist bretheren, the Pakistani involvement in Afghanistan is well documented going back to the time of the Mujahideen fighting against the Soviets.

A very good read - Afghanistan The Bear Trap by Brigadier Mohammad Yousaf highlights the Brigadier's role as head of the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence and the rag-tag insurgency which as the Brigadier notes clearly on the first page "For 4 years from 1983-19787, it was my task to plan and coordinate these activities".

The only thing that has changed over the years is who the insurgents are currently fighting, and Afghanistan is still of strategic importance to Pakistan, ethnically on the grounds of the presence of Pashtuns on both sides of the AF-Pak border (the concept of Strategic Depth, with Mullah Omar being appointed Amir al-Momineen or Commander of the Faithful and supported logistically by the Pakistani Army) and in an attempt to minimise a growing Indian influence in Afghanistan which the Indians had been nurturing since Pakistan gained independence in 1947.

Given the historical links and strategic importance of maintaining influence in Afghanistan, it was only in the aftermath of 9/11 and Bush's "you're either with us or against us" statement that Pakistan's military rulers were forced to adapt their stance. I think it was always fair to say that elements of Pakistani agencies took a 'pragmatic' approach to Afghanistan, playing both sides of the fence as and when required.

flame_bringer

2nd May 2011, 10:08

Would like to print a pic of his remains and piss on it or better piss on where he was buried.
I hope he incinerates in hell.

BEagle

2nd May 2011, 10:18

...or better piss on where he was buried.

Tricky - it appears his remains were disposed of in the ocean, so are probably being devoured by sharks right now.

Rot in hell, bin Laden, there won't be 72 virgins waiting for you!

0497

2nd May 2011, 10:20

Yay! Daily Mail graphics

So many things wrong.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382645-0BDDFB7500000578-300_634x527.jpg

Geehovah

2nd May 2011, 10:34

Best news I've heard for a long time.

I'm sparing a thought today for those he murdered, either directly or indirectly.

Trogger

2nd May 2011, 10:54

Yay! Daily Mail graphics

So many things wrong.

Do share......

Pontius Navigator

2nd May 2011, 11:00

Stu666, use your imagination.

It was rumoured where HRH was to go on his honeymoon. It is not a huge leap of logic to suspect there might be some repercussions from the fanatical.

WASALOADIE

2nd May 2011, 11:06

If his resting place is likely to become a shrine for his followers, why not plant him in a minefield?

Prophets would go through the roof!

OBL - Fish Food!!!

If he's meeting the virgins, no-one said they are females!

Good riddence to trash.

But I fear it's the start of another phase

SASless

2nd May 2011, 11:07

It is a grand day to be an American....and reflect upon how our SpecOps capability has improved since a raid in Iran all those many years ago. The successful operation against Osama is a tribute to all the dedication and hard work of so many people in all levels of our government and military that contributed to this success.

It must also be remembered the contribution made by our friends and Allies as well....in treasure and blood in joining in the fight with us against our foes.

I shall raise a toast (or two dozen) to all this evening.....and hope others do as well.

Well done Lads and Lasses!

Fox3WheresMyBanana

2nd May 2011, 11:32

Given AQ is now using 12 year old suicide bombers, it is hard to imagine how much angrier they can get. I for one am less concerned than yesterday. With any luck they'll launch a wave of planned attacks early that will go off half-cocked due to the rush.
A bit like sending a terrier down; I'm sure the INT types will be watching the holes to see who moves.
Having sailed an ocean, and understanding a little of ocean circulation, I know I am already p!ssing on OBL's grave!

Captain Sand Dune

2nd May 2011, 11:33

Why buried at sea, and so quickly? No, really. I'm missing something here. Is it solely to prevent his grave becoming a shrine? So what if it does? Plant few cameras around it and identify a few more of the nutters.
Why not demoralize the feckers and publish plenty of pictures of the dead toerag?

Fox3WheresMyBanana

2nd May 2011, 11:40

Immediate burial is required under Islamic law, so this will not annoy the moderates. Grave isn't important, fortunately, so burial at sea is not disrespectful. After the furore over the phone vids of Saddam's hanging, pix is the last thing we need.
Sober satisfaction is the way to go.

Stu666

2nd May 2011, 11:43

Stu666, use your imagination.

It was rumoured where HRH was to go on his honeymoon. It is not a huge leap of logic to suspect there might be some repercussions from the fanatical.

I wasn't aware of that rumour, only that the location was secret to keep the press away.

Still, even if they did have advance warning they could easily have gone somewhere else. There is probably more risk now of retaliation against them if they do choose Pakistan.

On another note, let us not forget the Special Forces, including Brits, who would have had him 10 years ago if wasn't for them being called off in the last minute. I imagine this must be a bitter-sweet occasion for them.

Ali Qadoo

2nd May 2011, 11:53

If he's been buried at sea, let's hope they invited lots of his followers to dig the grave!

denlopviper

2nd May 2011, 11:54

you cant just fly past 3 main operating bases, a number of active AAC fields, 2 corps and reach within 30 miles of the capital as well as some of the nuclear facilities without someone noticing. you have to wonder why they weren't engaged by the regiments at abbotabad or any on the way in or out if they werent identified as friendlies before hand. or maybe we did shoot that apache down

we knew and the operation was supported by the pakistan armed forces. well executed op though. im not very familiar with say blackhawks or apaches, but i seriously doubt that they have the fuel for a minimum 4 hr round trip with a atleast of 1.5 on station in the hover. either that or they came from the AAC field about 40 miles from abbotabad. either way, couldnt have been done with the pakistan armed forces involved.

admitting to it publicly means more pakistani blood. its only been 12 hrs and we already have had 2 suicide bomb attacks killing around 50. imagine backlash if the army says they were involved.

Roadster280

2nd May 2011, 11:59

I saw the towers when they were there. I saw the view from Liberty Island when they were not there. I've been to "Ground Zero". I've been to the memorial in Grosvenor Square. There were tears in my eyes for the last three, and I was strongly reminded why I joined up.

I was running a training course on September 11th 2001, with an American on it. He was beside himself, and marooned in the UK for two weeks.

I now live in the US, married to an American.

I will be sinking a few beers tonight, reflecting warmly on "what goes around, comes around" and "do unto others".

Pontius Navigator

2nd May 2011, 12:01

Stu, I will give you two clues, one, it was not Pakistan. Two is was where she spent 2 years of her childhood.

Stu666

2nd May 2011, 12:11

I'm with you now Pontius.

November4

2nd May 2011, 12:16

You may as well have said the place as a 4 word search on Google reveals the answer in seconds.

Either way - great news and hope the sharks don't choke

("kate", "middleton". "lived" and" overseas")

Barksdale Boy

2nd May 2011, 12:21

Pontius, thank you for your robust support (I think I may still owe you a couple of Attack Logs 11A). I did not hit on the connection myself, but rather it was MS BB, a lady of the American persuasion. We shall of course, "going forward", on the advice of the State Department suggest that taxi drivers take us on an alternative route to the Foreign Correspondents' Club.

Utrinque Apparatus

2nd May 2011, 12:22

Now ready yourselves for the inevitable media frenzy regarding "retaliation". Sorry Sky News, the muslim fundies declared war on all of us a long time ago and will kill, maim and behead anyone in the name of their fairytale any time their murderous little genes have the chance.

This will include trying to stir up AQ "sleepers", ie many of our homegrown inadequate bearded tossers to try their hand/hook with garden fertiliser and peroxide on the local shopping mall, bus or tube to emulate their spiritual Fagin who is now being gang raped by goats and rams in what passes for hell after living in Pakistan all these years.

May his arse look like a baboon's already

Pontius Navigator

2nd May 2011, 12:22

i seriously doubt that they have the fuel for a minimum 4 hr round trip with a atleast of 1.5 on station in the hover. either that or they came from the AAC field about 40 miles from abbotabad. either way, couldnt have been done with the pakistan armed forces involved.

Superficially you make a good case. On closer inspection we find that it is only 105 miles direct from the boarder or 40 odd minutes for a Blackhawk. On internal fuel they would appear to have about 1hr 20 minutes time on station. The Apache would appear to be slightly better with about 2 hours on station.

The direct flight path is some 18 miles north of Peshwar and well below any local radar cover.

The India Times however supports your contention that Pakistani forces were involved.

Osama bin Laden dead: Al Qaeda leader killed in dramatic night-time raid not far from Islamabad - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/osama-bin-laden-dead-al-qaeda-leader-killed-in-dramatic-night-time-raid-not-far-from-islamabad/articleshow/8141470.cms)

denlopviper

2nd May 2011, 12:30

already been cleared where they operated from. Pak Army Aviation field Ghazi, aka Terbela Dam Airport if your using google maps, about 30NM south west of abbotabad.

for a straight line flight from say jalalabad to abbotabad, you fly within 10 miles of PAF bases Peshawer, Risalpur and Minhas. radar coverage is actually very good in the area. remember our last engagement with india was along the Line of Control in kashmir.

either way....it was a joint operation

Fox3WheresMyBanana

2nd May 2011, 13:23

If the Pakistanis can "not notice" OBL for 8 years, I suspect they can "not notice" a few US choppers for 2 hours. I'm guessing the US found out his location despite the elements in the Pakistani security service hiding him. So, realising the game was up, they traded him for a few "concessions". Look for something to do with arms, aid or Kashmir in about 3 months. Especially now that India had decided to go European for its next fighter.
....aah, The Great Game is back on again.

Trogger

2nd May 2011, 13:25

Is he dead?...

Would appear the photo used in some media may not be genuine...

osama bin laden not dead heres the proof. (http://photoideas.in/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-not-dead-heres-the-proof/)

Flightmech

2nd May 2011, 13:26

I wasn't aware they took Bins out on bank holidays:E

minigundiplomat

2nd May 2011, 13:48

I wasn't aware they took Bins out on bank holidays

:D:D:D

Pontius Navigator

2nd May 2011, 13:58

November4, I KNOW that but why make it too easy? It was in the papers a few days back that they wanted to go to the Rose Red City.

denlopviper

2nd May 2011, 14:12

"If the Pakistanis can "not notice" OBL for 8 years, I suspect they can "not notice" a few US choppers for 2 hours"

the last place you look for your enemy is the room next door. but everyones got their theories.

dont forget, the west only lost a few thousand over the 10 years, care to look at pakistani lives lost because of this guy? heres a hint. the pakistan army has lost an average of 500 soldiers a year since the war starts. that includes US strikes on marked pakistan army posts. civilian losses happen are in the high 30 thousands.

it was the american the terrorists were mad at, yet all the bombing and killings were happening in pakistan.

and still you think the ISI and army were hiding OBL?. ok if you say so :)

btw

OBL was in that house only 3 years, not 8. the hosue was made 8 years ago. it only became occupied in the last 3

Fox3WheresMyBanana

2nd May 2011, 14:17

I said "elements", not all of them, or even most of them.
Anyway, maybe they got the address from OBL's Regrets letter envelope for the Royal Wedding.
Certainly explains how they targetted Ghadaffi's house.
Come on, every one EXCEPT Brown and Blair got an Invite didn't they?:E

camacho

2nd May 2011, 14:28

Good riddance to the swivel-eyed loon. Hope the lads who dropped him celebrated with a beer and a bacon sandwich before they crack on to the next ones, and fingers crossed there was a good int haul lifted out in the helis.

Elton's already recording the tribute...Sandals in the Bin.

Too early ?

High_Expect

2nd May 2011, 14:33

Osama bin shotinthehead. Good riddance. Nice work boys.

Mullinax

2nd May 2011, 14:42

Is he dead?...

Nah, he's just decided to spend some time at Bikini Bottom with SpongeBob SquarePants and his pals.

http://www.spongebobworld.com/images/sbw_characters.jpg

Finningley Boy

2nd May 2011, 15:50

pr00ne

2nd May 2011, 15:56

DoncasterSheffieldRobinHoodboy

"Who do imagine you'll offend on here?"

Oh, just about any Jew or Muslim...

sarboy w****r

2nd May 2011, 15:57

I read the first page on this thread and just cracked up at the irony - if you don't log in to PPrune then there are ads at the bottom of the page. And the one on page one was...

...a company offering fish pedicures - little fish eating the dead flesh off your feet. And the link is here for those that don't believe me (http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=Bttg5vNO-TdXOHIOm8AOj5tVJo4u-9AGbqrnTG4uBkLJb4OslEAEYASCBkowQOABQ7ZP__Pn_____AWC77pCB0Aqg Aa2k2-cDsgEOd3d3LnBwcnVuZS5vcme6AQozMDB4MjUwX2pzyAED2gFBaHR0cDovL3 d3dy5wcHJ1bmUub3JnL21pbGl0YXJ5LWFpcmNyZXcvNDUwMzg4LWJpbi1sYW Rlbi1kZWFkLmh0bWz4AQGAAgGpAmNIpCYn_rs-wAIByAKr49ARqAMB6AOWBegDmQHoA98J9QMAAwBE9QMAIAAB&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxV8N47c1GDfs8lie1mmIOdBV6O_g&client=ca-ib_employment_sede_1&adurl=http://www.groupon.co.uk/sites/www.groupon.co.uk/lp/lp/006/index.php%3Ftimg%3D006_gararufa_fish2%26CID%3DUK_SEM_3_401_1 000_9192%26plac%3Dwww.pprune.org%26crea%3D7330633939) Just love the fact that OBL seems to be getting one for free. Hahahah!

Finningley Boy

2nd May 2011, 16:27

DoncasterSheffieldRobinHoodboy

"Who do imagine you'll offend on here?"

Oh, just about any Jew or Muslim...

Of course all the posts on this thread have so far been quite balanced, circumspect, a real bag of mixed feelings of regret and resignation. By the way, why would a Jewish person be insulted by the "damn his hide" posts here about Osama Bin Laden?:confused:
And anyway, I thought we were disassociating him with any religious connection!?

FB:)

TEEEJ

2nd May 2011, 16:36

Trogger,

That image of a deceased bin laden was made years ago by a political satire website known as Unconfirmed Sources.

They had this disclaimer on the original webpage. 'Bush confirms death of osama bin laden'

Unconfirmed Sources political satire and news story parodies as represented above are written as satire or parody. They are, of course, fictitious.

TJ

SOSL

2nd May 2011, 16:53

Bin Laden had very cleverly set up a culture of terrorism (as they like to call it - I call it murder) which pervaded the consciousness of dispossessed and ignorant people. Well, the world is inhabited by dispossessed and ignorant people; particularly in areas where a medieval religion and culture holds sway. The death of obl will make not a jot of difference to the current threat - the culture of death will continue.

tarantonight

2nd May 2011, 17:18

Will no doubt be a good read when it all comes out, sounds like proper Hollywood stuff..............no doubt script already being written.

Good Riddance to the scumbag, but we must be alert to a backlash. Still, might be some overtime in it...................................................:D

Trogger

2nd May 2011, 18:15

TJ,
You would expect the media (who initially posted the image) to check their sources a little more carefully especially as the PS on the image is so obvious!...:hmm:

jindabyne

2nd May 2011, 18:31

Oh, just about any Jew or Muslim...

Oh do come down from your self-righteous perch.

The Old Fat One

2nd May 2011, 18:35

DoncasterSheffieldRobinHoodboy

"Who do imagine you'll offend on here?"

Oh, just about any Jew or Muslim...

Nope, don't get that one...too subtle for me.

Keep em coming though...more the merrier

chopabeefer

2nd May 2011, 18:54

Dumping his withered and crippled body in the Oggin was a stroke of genius - go and worship at his shrine now, scumbags. As I speak, he is probably being recycled into Crab****. Contributing to a greener world - that's what we like. Thanks Barack.:D

Agaricus bisporus

2nd May 2011, 19:11

I thought it was sop on Prune to add "RIP" after every post whenever anyone dies.

Why is no one doing it here?

RIP

:confused:

BEagle

2nd May 2011, 19:29

YGBSM!

Did you know that Adolf Hitler died in 1945?

Perhaps you would consider he also merits 'RIP'?

Bin Laden was a mass murderer. Nothing less. His remains are now fish food - they deserve nothing more. Although I personally would sooner have seen him kicking on the end of a rope at Ground Zero, then left to rot.

OFBSLF

2nd May 2011, 19:37

Rest in peace? No. I hope Osama burns in hell for all eternity.

I hope that my colleague, who was murdered on AA 11, rests in peace.

SASless

2nd May 2011, 20:36

RIP for Osama.....now gimmee a break here!

I hope his soul wanders in the fires of Hell in perpetuity!

Machaca

2nd May 2011, 21:25

OBL met U.S. Navy SEALS here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Abbott%C4%81bad,+Khyber+Pakhtunkhwa,+Pakistan&aq=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=55.937499,113.730469&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Abbott%C4%81bad,+Abbottabad,+Khyber+Pakhtunkhwa,+Pakis tan&ll=34.169153,73.242701&spn=0.001806,0.003471&t=h&z=19):

34° 10' 9.06" N
73° 14' 32.58" E

Lonewolf_50

2nd May 2011, 21:34

OK, since you asked, I'll offer one RIP for Osama Bin Laden:

Osama, may you RIP*

* RIP = Rest in Pisces :E

AdLib

2nd May 2011, 22:06

FaFcuksSake,

His compound is bloody well labelled on that Google site. Why in hell didn't they just look it up?!!!! We could have got this over and done with years ago. Those CIA/SEAL whatever blokes are REEEtards!

:hmm:

parabellum

2nd May 2011, 22:11

Picture looks quite convincing, double tap to the noggin, one through his right eye and one in the forehead between left eye and nose. If it is a spoof maybe the real thing was just too gruesome to publish, they possible blew his head off!

Grabbers

2nd May 2011, 22:12

AdLib

I think the labels on the map site you mentioned were put on after the event, old chum. :bored:

Off Hot

2nd May 2011, 23:27

Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

SmilingKnifed

2nd May 2011, 23:50

An outstanding waaaaaaah :E

Now that this particular head has been lopped from the hydra, it's maybe a good time for the Obama administration to pressure the Israelis and Palestinians into meaningful negotiations, the Saudis into some social changes and take away a few reasons for Bin Laden to be replaced by even more misguided youth.

I hope we don't over-celebrate this victory, there's still Zawarhiri and the real operational commanders to be given the same treatment. Meantime I hope their figurehead is enjoying his 72 virgins (and that they're all named 'Big Vince').

Navy_Adversary

2nd May 2011, 23:54

Big well done to all concerned, I expect they transferred his body from the Helo (Blackhawk?) to COD (C2) for the journey to the Carl Vinson.:8

Two's in

3rd May 2011, 00:20

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For other uses, see Hide and Seek (disambiguation).

Hide-and-seek or hide-and-go-seek is a variant of the game tag, in which a number of players conceal themselves in the environment, to be found by one or more seekers.

Previous champion Osama Bin Laden, 2001 - 2011

Reigning Champion Lord Lucan, 1974 - current

FoxtrotAlpha18

3rd May 2011, 01:47

I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy.
Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Martin Luther King Jr.

Really annoyed

3rd May 2011, 02:06

Just heard Bin Laden was actually taken out on Friday but the British Government asked the Americans not to announce it so it wouldn't over shadow the Royal Wedding.

Barksdale Boy

3rd May 2011, 02:27

I can't imagine for one moment that the Amercans would have agreed to that.

VinRouge

3rd May 2011, 02:42

I wonder if the SEALs relayed a message from Obama before tapping him in the head?

I bloody hope so.

tartare

3rd May 2011, 05:39

Anyone have any insight on the aircraft used in the operation? I am assuming they would be PaveHawks? There was footage of what looked like a Sentinel Drone circling overhead. But the stabilator on the wreckage of the chopper in some of the photos looked different to a Blackhawk...

Whenurhappy

3rd May 2011, 06:19

Drone? Drone...doesn't sound particularly military. Perhaps, Steak Tartar, you mean a Remotely Piloted Air Vehicle or an Unmanned Air Vehicle/System?

Do keep up. Drone is so, well, medja-like and common.

hanoijane

3rd May 2011, 06:54

Golly. We have to read 85 'Gotcha!' posts before we come across someone saying something remotely sensible on the 86th.

As the American like to say, without a hint of irony; 'Outstanding!'

500N

3rd May 2011, 07:21

Question for the experienced

40 minutes on the ground + flight time in and out of Pakistan air space
and the Pakistan Military couldn't scramble jets in time.

Is this slack, normal, expected ?

And if they had got jets in the air, would the US have engaged them ?

Wyler

3rd May 2011, 08:07

I assume the Pakistani Air Defence system relies on ground based radar. In that case a couple of non squawking helicopters would be very difficult to detect. Especially if you are looking further afield and do not (in a million years) expect that kind of attack.
The jets were probably scrambled after word came through of an attack in progress, rather than radar hits. This would be nothing more than an escalation of alert states in case this signalled the start of someting bigger.
As to being engaged by US jets. Bringing down a Pakistani jet over it's own sovereign territory woud have opened up a whole can of worms. That said, I doubt the Americans would be bothered when you consider the prize.

IMHO

Trogger

3rd May 2011, 08:34

500N,
The Pakistani's couldn't detect a 6'4" Arab living in a £1 million 'mansion' a few hundred yards from one of their military colleges - I think a handful of blacked out choppers would be well beyond them...

Grabbers

3rd May 2011, 08:37

Whoa whoa whoa. You mean those arrows on the G Maps weren't there before?:ugh::ugh:

Anyway, here are some interesting pics...Obama Monitors bin Laden Mission from Situation Room - TIME (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,2069208_2271482,00.html)

Trogger

3rd May 2011, 08:47

The Pakistanis are renaming "Abbottabad" to "Wegottaosamabinmohammedbinawadbinladenabad".....

500N

3rd May 2011, 09:16

"The Pakistani's couldn't detect a 6'4" Arab living in a £1 million 'mansion' a few hundred yards from one of their military colleges - I think a handful of blacked out choppers would be well beyond them..."

Yes, LOL.

I read some comments from locals who loved nearby, they had "wondered" who was living there !

barnstormer1968

3rd May 2011, 09:42

As my previous post (and all others) has been cited as a 'gotcha', can I just say that when HJ mentions post 85, he is only quoting one individuals opinion.

For my own part, much if not all of post 85 can be shown to be inaccurate in history, even if I do broadly agree with the sentiment.

The part which comes across as really silly to me is that we have a poster who may have flown combat missions to kill other folks he had never met, and would never know, purely based on political ideology and markings painted on the side of an aircraft or vehicle! To then scoff at others joy/happyness, who may know someone near and dear to them who were murdered in OBL's name, comes across as a bit hypocritical to me.

Did I hate anyone I killed...No. It was my job and I did it, and I guess the same goes for many others on this MILITARY aviation site.

No offence to any particular poster(s) intended.

Ngineer

3rd May 2011, 10:09

I heard that Green peace are upset with the US Navy for dropping the body at sea. Apparently it left a 12klm oil slick.

BEagle

3rd May 2011, 10:42

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Barack.jpg

"OK, the SEAL show has gone to commercials. Gemme a Big Mac, large fries and a regular Coke!"

SASless

3rd May 2011, 10:52

40 minutes on the ground + flight time in and out of Pakistan air space
and the Pakistan Military couldn't scramble jets in time.

The Hell with the concern about the Jets....hows about the Fire Brigade, Cops, Army....and Para medics? You do recall there are three Regiments of the Army based in that wee small town in addition to the Military School campus just a short stroll down the lane from the site of the attack.

Air Defense is the last of the things I would be worried about if I were the mission planner.

And yes Alice.....shooting down a Paki Air Force interceptor over Paki territory would have been an issue.....but then the whole raid was a violation of Paki sovereignty. It appears to this Spam the US Military and Government was not worried about that technicality and I will bet you doughnuts to dog turds (letting you hold the stakes in yer gob) we would have whacked ANY opposition to the Raid's forces.

BEagle

3rd May 2011, 11:06

SASless, the expression 'Paki' is considered to be offensive to the Pakistani community, despite what Gee Dubya might have thought.

As for the BBC radio newsreader who once unwittingly referred to "A pack of Asian youths" during some riot - what an unfortunate choice of collective noun!

"...shooting down a Pakistani Air Force interceptor over Pakistani territory would have been an issue"

No $hit, Sherlock! 'An issue' indeed! Still, top result for the US Special Forces and I hope that they are suitably decorated in honour of their achievement.

Heathrow Harry

3rd May 2011, 11:29

"Honoured" ???

man, just look at the photos of the guy sitting next to Obama as they watch the operation live - he has a chestful you could land an F-35 on

the Us Military hands out more medals than even Qaddafi wears

denlopviper

3rd May 2011, 11:30

Trogger

3rd May 2011, 11:49

BEagle,
That's what gets me about the PC overly sensitive age we now live in - I recall as a kid in the north of Scotland a corner shop being owned/run by a Pakistani family. I went to school with their kids (one was in my class) and we referred to their shop as the "Paki's" - their kids even referred to it as such. The term was no more offensive than being called a "Brit" or a "Jock" - mind you that was when the likes of Alf Garnett were allowed on the BBC...

Oi whoopsee, where's my bloody tea?.....

What the Fug

3rd May 2011, 11:49

Would it not be better for the Pakistan government to say they didn't know, make some vague noises about sovereignty and then put it all on the long finger

Wannabe Flyer

3rd May 2011, 11:51

like i said, we knew. the mission was launched from a pakistan army base.

Cannot see any confirmation about that anywhere. All indications point to it coming from Jalalabad. Gut instinct says that 24 heavily armed seals landing at a Pakistani base and then setting off at night with specialized equipment would have triggered some alarm to locals/informers stationed at Ghazi. Considering the US is taking pains to say how they ensured that the local govt was not informed about this raid and to put out enough views on how they felt about clandestine co-operation they would not have risked it.

My Opinion

Operation was launched from Jbad and probably ended at Ghazi from where the transfers and hand over took place.

But again we will know exact details in about 10 years from some Hollywood potboiler.

Oh yes how did these guys cross over......there are some rumors floating about jamming radars and stuff........again wait for the pot boiler.

denlopviper

3rd May 2011, 12:22

radar jamming has just one tiny issue with it. it would have set of alarm bells though out the the air force and the army air defense. if any radar was jammed, the second they started jamming, they gave themselves away.

2nd. they were on the ground shooting for 40 minutes in the middle of 3 regiments. give me one reason why the pak army wouldn't shoot at the US soldiers and helos unless they knew and were expecting them.

can you explain the army not opening fire on unknowns shooting in the middle of their cantonment for 40 minutes (that does fulfill the definition of hostiles doesnt it)

gun fire in the backyard for 40 minutes and no reaction? really?

no fighters scrambled to check unknown helos operating over a pakistani city for over 40 minutes? flight time from the nearest base to abbotabad is 3 minutes. 2 more fighter bases withing 10 minutes flight time

does that make sense to anyone?

going by the facts at hand. i'll still maintain that it was launched from Ghazi with support of the pak military.

ixg888

3rd May 2011, 12:35

Thank God justice is served!

denlopviper

3rd May 2011, 12:38

ps

dont forget. we wanted to kill that SOB as much as the americans.

so far the coalition forces have only lost around 2400 men. we have lost over 7000 soldiers on the afghan border alone, not including deaths resulting from the suicide attacks at the air force, navy and army installations. and also have lost over 35,000 civilians mostly at the hands of the US drone strikes.

clunckdriver

3rd May 2011, 13:03

Thirty five thousand deaths by US Drone strikes? Ive told you a million times not to exagerate!

hanoijane

3rd May 2011, 13:13

Barnstormer, I was making reference to post 86, not 85. Do try to maintain focus.

It's perhaps somewhat presumptuous of me to assume your comments were aimed in my direction, but if they were then had I...

'flown combat missions to kill other folks he had never met, and would never know, purely based on political ideology and markings painted on the side of an aircraft or vehicle'

my sole intention would have been to give them a good spanking. Anything else would have been - what do you call it? - collateral damage.

Gratuitous gloating is so tiresome. It ill-serves your (just) cause to defend those who behave in this way.

UKSquiff

3rd May 2011, 13:17

They shoulda taken him alive, and made him go through Airport security every day for the rest of his life!:ok:

KiloB

3rd May 2011, 13:45

I see to remember in the initial TV coverage there was a shot of a 130 flying what looked very like a 'Spectre' orbit; and I'm sure there was other (FJ) Top cover as well.
Isn't it likely that Pakistan was given the 'Green Leader' option once the shooting had started?

KB

TBM-Legend

3rd May 2011, 14:01

what about the OBL family pet goat?????:8

denlopviper

3rd May 2011, 15:08

clunckdriver

i said

"lost over 35,000 civilians mostly at the hands of the US drone strikes."

35000 is conservative number. most of the US drone strikes have been on misidentified targets regardless of what the US has said including weddings. what they say and the reality on the ground arnt always the same you know.

clunckdriver

3rd May 2011, 15:41

OK Deniopviper, how do you define "Mostly", 30,000? 25,000? Your statement is still utter crap no matter what your definition is, yes, hitting the wrong targets is a terrible mistake to make, {One wonders how much false intel has come from Pakistan to create these errors?} however if Pakistan were really on the side of the allies such strikes would not be required, they could take care of these folks themselves, but they dont, prefering to play both ends,thus, as in most wars, the inocent suffer. It has been forever thus.As an end note, are we suposed to belive that one can build a compound of that size and cost right in the open and nobody in Intel asked questions about the ocupants? I think the Pakistan Government have a shot at the Pulitzer fiction award this year!

moggiee

3rd May 2011, 16:19

And yes Alice.....shooting down a Pakistani Air Force interceptor over Pakistani territory would have been an issue.....but then the whole raid was a violation of Pakistani sovereignty. It appears to this Spam the US Military and Government was not worried about that technicality and I will bet you doughnuts to dog turds (letting you hold the stakes in yer gob) we would have whacked ANY opposition to the Raid's forces.

It is also possible that, despite the protestations of the Pakistani government, they did in fact know that it was happening and stayed out of the way. Claiming to have been left out of the loop by the Americans is probably less embarrassing than admitting to helping them.

denlopviper

3rd May 2011, 16:36

over half that number. when was the last time you visited the afghan pakistan border? i was there last week. been in and out of that area lots of times so i can say with confidence about the numbers.

and about your statement

however if Pakistan were really on the side of the allies such strikes would not be required, they could take care of these folks themselves, but they dont, preferring to play both ends,

dude, we have lost over 7000 soldiers in that border area alone. yet here you are saying we arnt doing our job. it is us who arnt safe even in our houses from the terrorists, yet you think we play both sides.

there are many compounds of that size scattered around the entire province. one more wont raise alarms. how long has he been living there is something no one is sure of.

frankly im not concerned with what was. im more concerned about what is coming.

D John

3rd May 2011, 16:56

I'm hopeing that the SEALS brought back all Bin Laden's PCs, papers and discs with his friends names and addresses so we can see this show again and get some more of these assholes.

I was trying to picture the 'burial at sea; no quiet crowd on deck or flag draped bundle slideing off the plank....... more likely the SEALS dropping him out the door of a Seahawk on their way back home.

Anyway you look at it it's bad news for the bad guys!

cheers,

-John:ok:

500N

3rd May 2011, 17:25

"dude, we have lost over 7000 soldiers in that border area alone. yet here you are saying we arnt doing our job. it is us who arnt safe even in our houses from the terrorists, yet you think we play both sides."

If you have "lost" 7000 soldiers, the number of wounded should be, let's say 4 times that.

And then we get to how many of the enemy have been killed for you to lose 7000 soldiers ?

The numbers don't seem to stack up unless they are totally incompetent
and lined up to be shot.

Polikarpov

3rd May 2011, 17:29

I wonder if the SEALs relayed a message from Obama before tapping him in the head?

I bloody hope so.

You can be sure there'll be a suitably pithy one-liner in the TV movie!

con-pilot

3rd May 2011, 17:33

the Us Military hands out more medals than even Qaddafi wears

Really, then explain just where Prince Philip got all his medals then? :rolleyes:

billynospares

3rd May 2011, 17:40

I would guess the large majority of Prince Phillips medal would come form his naval service in WW2 :ugh:

500N

3rd May 2011, 17:41

"the Us Military hands out more medals than even Qaddafi wears"

I don't disagree with you but that particular person's Bio is pretty impressive reading ad I very much doubt he would receive multiple awards of the same medal if he or his unit wasn't up to the task (on the basis a few of them are multiple top unit awards).

con-pilot

3rd May 2011, 18:07

I would guess the large majority of Prince Phillips medal would come form his naval service in WW2

Really, very interesting, so he earned all those medals he wore during the Royal Wedding in World War Two and I'll submit deservingly so.

But Americans do not earn their medals, they're just handed out to them then. :rolleyes:

My father's medals came from his Air Force service in World War Two flying B-17s. Across a small channel, protecting the people that lived on that side of the channel and earned every damn one of them.

He also received more during the Berlin Airlift, the North Korean War and Viet Nam. He earned every damn one of those as well.

:ugh:

billynospares

3rd May 2011, 18:33

Hey chill out con I was just expressing an opinion on where his medals came from I didnt cast any doubt on your or your fathers right to his medals ? I personally will always give maximum respect to anyone who has earned the right to wear them :D

Trogger

3rd May 2011, 18:36

If you are interested here is the full list of medals issued to UK forces since WWI

Medals Booklet (PDF file 4.1Mb) (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/F094AB02-070D-4D93-A15C-EDA1694A1591/0/Medals_Booklet.pdf)

The current UK medals 'list' comprises
Operational Service Medal (OSM) for Afghanistan (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/OsmAfghanistan.htm)

Iraq Medal (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/Iraq.htm)

Gallantry Medals -

Medals awarded for gallantry or distinguished service (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/HonoursAndGallantryAwards.htm)

Compare with the US medals/awards list (which I appreciate has some 'out of date' medals listed on, e.g. Vietnam, Korea) -

Awards and decorations of the United States military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_decorations#United_States)

Not wishing to start a bun fight - but the US military do have a few more than we do...;)

I have served in the UK military and alongside US military, so no knocking intended...

VinRouge

3rd May 2011, 18:37

con, dont take it personally; its a bit of a bugbear of the brits though as we have pretty much only one qualification medal, that being the queens jubilee medal.

We have no medals for "Air force recruiter medal", nor "basic instructor" nor "overseas service", nor "air force outstanding unit award"... the list goes on and on...

Air Force Ribbons & Medals (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforcemedals/l/blafmedals.htm)

BEagle

3rd May 2011, 19:14

Not wishing to start a bun fight - but the US military do have a few more than we do...

It's not just that- medals awarded to coalition forces are often worn by US forces (quite rightly), but unless some simpering palace fag-hag has bothered to ask for Royal Assent, are not permitted to be worn by entitled UK armed forces personnel.

Remember GW1? "Congratulations, here are your Saudi and Kuwaiti medals. You are not allowed to wear them." :uhoh: Yanks do though!

Anyway, whoever it was who slotted that worthless POS bin Laden deserves a significant decoration. Well done, USA!!

Trogger

3rd May 2011, 19:42

A slow lingering death would have been better than a 'quick' head shot - but now they need to hunt down the rest of the :mad: 's....

D John

3rd May 2011, 21:07

Here you go fellas, dig in...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_titles_and_honours_of_Prince_Philip,_Duke_of_Edinbur gh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_titles_and_honours_of_Prince_Philip,_Duke_of_Edinbur gh)

Prince Philip received british WW2 service medals and awards as well as awards from other countries in recognition for his service to those countries both during and after WW2.

cheers,

-John:ok:

minigundiplomat

3rd May 2011, 21:13

Hopefully,

there was a laptop recovered providing details of where, and to whom to address the JDAM's.

As to whether the Pakistan government, or by extension rogue elements of the ISI, were complicit in his evasion of capture - I have only 1 response.

With billions of civil and military aid pouring in to Pakistan, as a partner in the war on terror, from the UK & USA; is it really in their interests to engineer an end to terrorism and by extension the war against it?

Answers on a postcard.......

Pontius Navigator

3rd May 2011, 21:16

I hear the story has changed completely - he wasn'tm armed, he wasn't cowering etc etc, so just where is the truth?

AR1

3rd May 2011, 21:31

The truth is out there..

Known by a relatively small number of people distorted and embellished by a much larger number.

Always the way.

Personally I don't care how it happened, I just believe that given the nature of the op, the chances of it ending any other way were limited.

Trogger

3rd May 2011, 21:38

PN,
Personally, it matters not one bit to me if he was armed or not - he had no hesitation in murdering innocent individuals all around the world, his guilt was not in question and as such richly deserved to die. The few cents that the two rounds cost saved the billions it would have cost to bring him to some sort of trial and subsequent sentence.

They should have kneecapped him, taken him up to 1400' (height of WTC), set him on fire then kicked him out the door...

polecat2

3rd May 2011, 21:40

So OBL's hideout was next to the Pakistani Military Academy? It's like building a mosque next to Sandhurst. :cool:

Polecat2

Lonewolf_50

3rd May 2011, 21:44

the flight time from where they operated to the target was less than 10 minutes. they were operating from army aviation field called Ghazi 33°58'56"N 72°36'39"E. the US has had helos stationed there for quite some time. not to mention a few other bases as well where UAVs were based.

I will be interested to find out if this is true or not. Spec Ops Blackhawks have air to air refueling probes ...
Wyler, yes mostly we use ground based radar. but since the Erieye became active they do all the command and control.

GCI isn't much use against non squawking helicopters down low. That said, if you get cued, you are still in the woods unless you have good "look down shoot down" radar on your fighters. Won't ask you to comment on that if you are in the PAF.
as far as readiness goes, its the western military analysts who labeled PAF as one of the most combat ready air forces. after all, our enemy who we have fought 4 wars with is right next door.

"One of the most" is what some of us call "damning with faint praise." I suspect the readiness varies with the unit (squadron or wing) just as it does in our forces. :cool:
engaging the PAF would be a declaration of war again pakistan. its that simple. you dont want to goto war with a nuclear state. its generally considered to be a bad idea.

The nuclear posture of Pakistan is no threat to the US, though India may veel a bit touchy on that score.

I don't find the prospect of war with Pakistan a likely outcome of this raid, regardless of who shot whom. Recall that Saddam shot up the USS Stark, and DIDN'T get his butt handed to him. (At that point in time). The Chinese rammed a US P-3 with a fighter (most likely a cock up) and it didn't end up in a war.
like i said, we knew.
Who is "we" denlop viper?

OPSEC is something that, in that part of the world, is filled with leaks once outside certain classifications. For this raid, you are dealing in a pretty high level of classification.

"We" might mean a few Pakistani military who were in a habitual relationship with US forces, or liaison officers, were along for a raid, and who were, shall we say, briefed after the helicopters took off.

I suspect a few might be along to deal with local Pakistani authorities.

As noted above, a "40 minute fire fight" would attract attention. Having along a couple of guys who are no fooling Pakistani officers would allow them to meet the police, or a Rapid Response Force of Pakistani military, and tell them "this is all good" and prevent any US on Pakistan action. Just a guess on my part, no idea if that is how it played out. Also not sure if any Pakistani officer would go along with that with foreign forces doing an op over his turf. Too many guesses and unknowns here.
mission was launched from a pakistan army base.
You assume.

If you can confirm this from personal knowledge, I think we'd all be greatful. Beyond that, you appear to be guessing.
if you want to believe what the pakistan government is telling the media, well the president says we didnt know, the prime minister said we knew and approved it, the ISI said they had personnel on the ground with the US.
:) As I see it, the political game has been played perfectly.

but the operation happened with the support of the pakistan military
The details on that will be unlikely to emerge any time soon, if true. (And I suspect it is at least in part true ... just a matter of detail, and what one means by "support" in this case. :cool: )

500N

3rd May 2011, 21:51

"but the operation happened with the support of the pakistan military"

The details on that will be unlikely to emerge any time soon, if true. (And I suspect it is at least in part true"

... just a matter of detail, and what one means by "support" in this case. :cool:

Support sounds like someone is wearing a jock trap and kevlar
to stop being kicked in the butt.

I would still like to know how he came up with "7000 soldiers" dead
in one of his previous posts.

AR1

3rd May 2011, 22:05

For those who haven't seen it yet I found this guy's tweets quite interesting - fog of war and all that.. Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/reallyvirtual)

If you believe it happened last Friday, then the first tweets refer to a Helecopter at 1am on the 1st May - 10pm Uk time I make it.

Also some talk of local military commanders referring to a training accident. Interesting to see it unfold from a locals point of view.

parabellum

3rd May 2011, 22:40

There is room for a wealth of speculation here, so a few points come to mind. There was a power cut in the area of OBLs compound from 22.30local until just before the Op launched, tends to keep people off the streets, may well affect communications, number of other possibilities, could have been coincidence, could have been rigged.

I'll bet there has been quite a lot of night time helicopter activity around Ghazi for at least the last couple of months so special Black Hawks etc. wouldn't attract undue attention when they arrived, if they came from further afield or when they launched for the operation. The preparation for this OP, including leaving false trails, will have been huge.

My guess is that the Pakistani forces were advised of the raid when it was too late for a security breach but in time to stop them becoming involved in either the Op itself or the extraction.

Wannabe Flyer

4th May 2011, 04:29

@denlopviper: Your reaction is well understood as there is shock and disbeleif across Pakistan at the moment, ranging from how did he hide here so long to how did the Americans come in and out and we did not even know. What if the Indians do it next.

Sometimes if you sift thru all the conspiracy theories, you do find out that Elvis is actually dead and he died exactly the way it was told, the rest is human nature to justify actions that sometimes look inconceivable.

That said, 1000's are dying everyday across the world due to all sorts of misdeeds of others. Your country is not in it alone and if there is any price it has and is paying it is the inaction of the people like yourself to take a Jasmine flower to the ones perpetrating this.

Think positive :ok: Figure head is gone, time to go for the jugular not bicker.

Finningley Boy

4th May 2011, 06:01

@denlopviper: Your reaction is well understood as there is shock and disbeleif across Pakistan at the moment, ranging from how did he hide here so long to how did the Americans come in and out and we did not even know. What if the Indians do it next.

Don't worry, they'll send up smoke signals and start banging the old war drums long before they attack. Watch Drums along the Mohawk and Apache Pass. You'll get the gen from them!:ok:

FB:)

Wannabe Flyer

4th May 2011, 06:38

FB

Good analogy, however these Indians are a few clicks to the east and not a few thousand clicks to the west. :cool:

Blacksheep

4th May 2011, 06:49

If OBL wasn't dead, he'd be on Al Jazeera holding up today's newspaper and thumbing his nose by now. As to the Indians nipping in and doing dirty deeds without being detected, how do they know they haven't already?

Pontius Navigator

4th May 2011, 06:57

Trogger, quite agree, dead is dead.

The initial story is obviously just what most western (and many other) audiences wish to hear.

The later story opens it up to bleeding heart liberals saying that he was killed in cold blood and he should have been arrested and given a fair trial before he was executed.

Or more likely make millions of $$$$$$$$ for everyone from the lawyers to the press and media circus that would emerge.

Now we could have a vote for option 1 or option 2 but I don't think it would make any difference.

Of course option 3, without the body, will have the conspiracy theory guys well away with the fairies - OBL is now in custody well awayn from Gitmo and will be coughing up the beans in between water boarding sessions.

Wannabe Flyer

4th May 2011, 07:03

Pontius

Option 1. I think was the far cheaper one. What was the cost of 3 Mp3 bullets? A Lawyer would not even pick up the phone for that one. I think the Judge Jury and executioner in this case was properly played out by an anonymous human being who took a big decision in a split second.

Now to move to the next PIA (pain in the arse) and make him a EKIA..........

And yes Elvis still lives.

SASless

4th May 2011, 11:04

so just where is the truth?

PN asked?

One small bit of truth.....OBL is dead at the hand of a vengeful Nation's SpecOps raiding force. It took ten years, two Presidents, four Congresses, thousands of dedicated people, and lots of money.....but he was chased down, cornered, and killed after having been responsible for the murder of thousands of people.:ok:

That is all the truth this one individual seeks....and needs!:D

Fox3WheresMyBanana

4th May 2011, 13:14

Exactly.
Churchill always said you could rely on the Yanks to do the right thing; after they've tried every other option.
The point is, no matter how inefficiently, they have got him. This should put off every nutcase who doesn't actually have a death wish.
Radko Mladic next?

Lonewolf_50

4th May 2011, 13:38

To play Devil's advocate, Radko never attacked America ... :}

Graybeard

4th May 2011, 14:19

Is this coincidence, or something more?

2005: Villa/mansion/whatever is built for bin Laden in Abbott-abad.

2006, July 4: NY Times: "The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said."

2006 Sep 15: Bill Maher's "Real Time": Guest Christiane Amanpour says bin Laden is not living in a cave, but a nice villa somewhere.

GB

Pontius Navigator

4th May 2011, 14:49

PN asked?

One small bit of truth.....OBL is dead

. . . That is all the truth this one individual seeks....and needs!:D

Allegedly.

Haebeus Corpus.

As commentators have said, why does the White House have this easy knack of feeding the conspiracy theorists?

He shot: he didn't. He used a human shield: he didn't. She was killed: she wasn't.

Shades of that rescue mission that went wrong - they killed her: we killed her.

The lesson that the White House needs to take away is don't shoot your mouth off. Least said, soonest mended, or rather get your story agreed before you go public.

Pure Pursuit

4th May 2011, 15:11

So in enters the SEAL with his gun pointing at OBL...

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee."

Tap Tap.

Tourist

4th May 2011, 15:15

Oh if only. You know it was really something more like this.

"Uh dude, you that bad dude."
tap tap

500N

4th May 2011, 15:22

PN
"The lesson that the White House needs to take away is don't shoot your mouth off. Least said, soonest mended, or rather get your story agreed before you go public. "

Absolutely. The complete opposite to the SF community attitude.

I couldn't believe some of the corrections that were made. From being at the top of the tree, these made the US look almost as stupid as Pakistan.

Maybe one spokesperson from the White House to do all the briefings ?

Grabbers

4th May 2011, 16:20

If only the intelligence community had looked here: YouTube - Michael Bentine's Potty time

BEagle

4th May 2011, 16:27

"Yo - bin Laden. Do you surrender, yo' muthafakir"

"Errr...."

"Wrong answer! Night-night"

TAP TAP

What a shame he wasn't captured alive though. Then he could have been dangled kicking at the end of a rope over Ground Zero and left to rot.....

Trogger

4th May 2011, 16:47

"Derka derka derka Mohammad Jihad"...

Pontius Navigator

4th May 2011, 17:06

Maybe one spokesperson from the White House to do all the briefings ?

They had. He got it wrong. Someone else had to issue a new statement.

Why oh why could they not have stuck with 'truth central' and ensured the facts fitted the story? As I say, they seem to make a habit of it.

Lonewolf_50

4th May 2011, 17:38

The lesson that the White House needs to take away is don't shoot your mouth off. Least said, soonest mended, or rather get your story agreed before you go public.
This White House is as bad as the previous one at saying things that make me shout "better to shut up than talk out of yer backside" at the TV screen.

"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee."
Tap Tap.

"Uh dude, you that bad dude."
tap tap

PN
Must agree with your assessment of how "the need to say something" usually turns into a mess ... all the moreso with the 24/7 news and blogosphere at full power most of the time.

SASless

4th May 2011, 18:25

The Obama White House operates by "Leaks, leaking, and issuing contradictory statemements"....so why is this event any different?

Indeed the cockroaches are scurrying about with the new light shined on them....and AQ too.:E

Two's in

4th May 2011, 18:31

Like all recent adminstrations, the trouble is the chief spin doctor is sat at the President's elbow telling him that a vacuum can't exist in the 24 hour cable news void, so fill it with something, just anything. Every action is subject to the following scrutiny:

1. How many points will I score in the opinion polls?
2. Can I make the other team look bad?
3. Will it come back to bite me?
4. How does this help my voters?
5. How does this help my country?

Point 5 is positively the last thing considered by any sitting President, regardless of party affiliation, because if you don't get voted back in, you can't be President. Sad but true, not much different back in Blighty these days I'm guessing.

AR1

4th May 2011, 18:50

because if you don't get voted back in, you can't be President. Sad but true, not much different back in Blighty these days I'm guessing.
Unless your name's Nick.

parabellum

4th May 2011, 22:24

I'm guessing of course but I think the SEALS may have had instructions to kill OBL. Much as the prospect of seeing him executed at Ground Zero appeals, we have all learned that a high profile prisoner isn't always good news.

In the case of OBL I fear that, had he been taken alive, within a week there would have a hundred hostages being held and within two weeks one hundred televised beheadings.

Judging by the amount of intelligence that was seized at the time it isn't surprising that the raid took forty minutes to complete.

MAN777

5th May 2011, 01:45

Not my work but found on the net

"OSAMA BIN LADEN"

Anagram

"A LOB DA MAN IN SEA"

:)

denlopviper

5th May 2011, 04:11

guys its not about personal opinion. i can completely understand why wont believe a number as high as that.

but

the 7000 figure includes 6 of coursemates and quite alot of my friends. so you'll just have to take my word for it. no proof sorry. the pak army will never reveal its actual losses. we took heavier losses in the operating at wanna and the north areas. frankly i dont mind if you believe me, but i been to enough funerals to know.

you know, these guys the pak army is fight. they have been fighting a war since the soviet invasion. they might not have the equipment, but they more than make up for it in terms of experience and knowledge of the area and any infantryman will tell you, that makes quite a big impact on how things trun out on the ground.

here is an example on how good they are. single sniper. took 2 shots fired at the presidents motorcade which was traveling at over 100 mph. armored cars. the spread between the 2 impacts was less than 2 inch. he got caught so we know it was a single shooter, distance was just over 500 yards. this is the caliber of guys the army has been fighting. they started firing guns as soon as they started walking. shooting comes naturally to them. and therefore the high casualties.

Ghazi is no secret. that is where the US started to operate from during the flood relief. they just never left. the government will never admit to it.

unlike what both the pakistan and the US governments would like you to believe, we have had US boots on the ground for a long time. advisors during raids as well as doing BDA on the ground. they have been flying in pakistan since the beginning with an army aviation officer on board for all the radio work to keep it hush hush.

GCI cant pick up low level targets yes, but the Erieye can. we are actually operating 2 different AEW&C systems. also VERA-E, even though feedback from sector commands is bad about the VERA-E, but its still there and operational. i wont comment on what kind of look down shoot down capability PAF has, but we have it and on multiple platforms not just F-16s. but i will tell u that if its to intercept a US fighter, PAF will never use F-16s, it'll be either mirages, the F-7s or the JF-17s. the F-16s have this fail safe system, they wont lock on US aircrafts. the guys in the squadrons tried, it wouldn't.

PMA is a no fly zone. no one goes in or out without express permission from army ADA, otherwise you get shot. a poor guy flying a lonely Cessna152 ended up near PMA after getting lost and losing radio contact. knew though they knew where th plane came from, still the poor guy was chased away with live warning shots and a gunship escort. problem is the exact thing some here have pointed out. PMA is only 80 miles from indian controlled kashmir. low level choppers can sneak in. therefore the order to open fire if unknown and no contact.

ok forget all that. say i am making everything up for arguments sake.

we all agree on 1 thing...PMA is a secure facility. they have their own ADA unit assign to them, plus 2 regiments for defense. right, this is on record so no argument there

now, even if the choppers were flying low. even if army only heard the choppers after their arrival....

what stopped them ADA from opening fire? stingers are very effective on hovering targets u know.

why didnt the sentry guards who patrol around PMA shoot, after all, the choppers were only 500 meters form PMAs boundary.

even to get to that compound, they had to fly over army units based at and around abbotabad. why didnt they react?

forget them...any reason why the police didnt react. the US themselves say they were on the ground for 40 mins. 40 minutes of 3 or 4 helicopters flying less than 500 meters from PMA in the middle of an army cantonment and no one does anything? really? does that make sense?

how long you think an sentry would take to run 500 meters and open fire? even if you cut of both legs off, i think he should atleast get to say 50 meter from the compound in 40 minutes?

unless of course they were expecting the choppers and had orders not to react..

ok fine...say the reaction time of the PAF is pathetic. highly unlikely since i have personally seen their scrambles, plus india is next door. you really think it will take more than 40 minutes for a fighter on QRA to get airborne and reach the choppers who are less than 5 minutes flight from the runway?

one more thing, since i have lived in that area.

i know for a fact most civilians carry guns in that entire region, the province is the gun capital of the world u know ( look for darra adam khail , or pakistan gun market on youtube, you'll get an idea).

coming to the point. every other guy carries a gun and no one fired a single shot? or maybe they did and thats what brought the chopper down.

40 minutes flying over the city and a crowd didnt gather?? no matter what you do to a chopper, besides installing antigravity drives, they will make a ton of noise and wake people up.

come on :hmm:

now knowing all that. knowing that army didnt shoot, PAF didnt scramble and the crowd couldnt gather during the 40 minute long op. how can anyone say the pak military didnt know?

oh and another thing, its only been a couple of days and the US is already starting to change stories. what does that tell you?

aviate1138

5th May 2011, 04:29

Shirley.......

LOB A MAN IN DA SEA?

Wannabe Flyer

5th May 2011, 04:37

oh and another thing, its only been a couple of days and the US is already starting to change stories. what does that tell you?

It tells me to make sure your commander does not know you are online spilling secrets.

Fact: OBL is dead
How: Irrelevant

Hard to believe in 6 years people whose behavior was termed strange and as per televised interviews of the neighbors some one who has assumed "black money from white powder" lived there, in 6 years never even merited a visit by the local beat constable to look into this.

If the above is the case it is well within the reasoning of what Panetta said. The forces were plain incompetent and 6 years of no interference had resulted in all including the forces to keep their defenses down. Now when you have been caught napping, treat it as a bad dream and move on

SASless

5th May 2011, 12:54

Bin Liner was a Goner from the gitgo....take a minute to think just how many folks around the World would not want him to talk freely about his connections, supporters, and financiers! That one fact alone condemned the Man to a very quick departure from this life. Just how many Saudi Princes, Emirs, Mullahs, Bankers, Politicians, et al....are now breathing much easier. At least until the treasure trove of intelligence keepsakes are analyzed and disseminated to other SpecOps units for use in their Ops.

Graybeard

5th May 2011, 12:58

This event reminds me of a Redneck (US rural Southerner) murder defense:

"He needed killin'."

GB

larssnowpharter

5th May 2011, 15:40

here is an example on how good they are. single sniper. took 2 shots fired at the presidents motorcade which was traveling at over 100 mph. armored cars. the spread between the 2 impacts was less than 2 inch. he got caught so we know it was a single shooter, distance was just over 500 yards. this is the caliber of guys the army has been fighting. they started firing guns as soon as they started walking. shooting comes naturally to them. and therefore the high casualties.

Bit of a raised eyebrow here.:rolleyes:

500N

5th May 2011, 16:08

" here is an example on how good they are. single sniper. took 2 shots fired at the presidents motorcade which was traveling at over 100 mph. armored cars. the spread between the 2 impacts was less than 2 inch. he got caught so we know it was a single shooter, distance was just over 500 yards. this is the caliber of guys the army has been fighting. they started firing guns as soon as they started walking. shooting comes naturally to them. and therefore the high casualties."

Bit of a raised eyebrow here.:rolleyes:"

A good shooter knowing what lead to put on using the sustained lead method would do this. No difference to shooting animals running flat out.
It's just a judgement call. However I will say that 2" is good.

On the other hand, he might have been a good shot but he got caught so he wasn't that good was he. Alos, what was he doing shooting at armored cars with a rifle or was it a 50 cal using AP bullets ? Even then, not the best tool for the job.

.

denlopviper

5th May 2011, 19:20

i guess they were trying to make a point. that they can hit the presidents car in the capital while under escort and traveling at high speed

it was in the news. you should be able to find photos of it on the internet.

Lonewolf_50

5th May 2011, 20:15

Thanks for your explanation, denlop. I find myself in some agreement with the first line in Wannabe Flyer's response. ;)

We can't be too careful ...

500N

5th May 2011, 20:52

denlop

"i guess they were trying to make a point. that they can hit the presidents car in the capital while under escort and traveling at high speed

it was in the news. you should be able to find photos of it on the internet."

We know really good snipers come along once in a while so they are few and far between.

" trying to make a point" at the cost of what you say is a top quality person is IMHO, not a good use of assets.

Anyway, this is thread drift.

WhatsaLizad?

6th May 2011, 01:56

denlopviper,

I wouldn't put too much credence in the White House story changes to back up conspiracy theories.

The WH has screwed up the story and account royally, but has been overlooked due to the significance of what happened. The best explanation I've seen was a US TV networks Pentagon correspondents observation that unlike past practice with military operations where well versed, well trained and experienced military officers handled the briefings, the Obama Administration had their civilian White House staff handle the briefings and basically didn't have a clue what they were talking about unless they could pull up a Wikipedia reference on their iphones. When all the information keep coming across their desks, they just regurgitated it without any filters unlike a smart military officer who could clear up the chaos for a consistent, easy to understand account of an operation.

Willard Whyte

6th May 2011, 05:14

Probably been said before (too many pages of posts), but the timing of the take-down leads me to suspect they were the opening shots in BHO's election campaign.

And of course a few days later he makes his first visit, 2 1/2 years after being elected, to ground zero.

Cynical? Me? How very dare you.

VinRouge

6th May 2011, 05:17

I get the impression that someone seems to think the way in which OBL was taken out may be of dubious legality. Who cares, well, other than Amnesty and a load of other guardian reading types, not that many.

Wonder whats going to happen if it emerges that OBL was shot in the back of the head for example? I for one cant understand why they just dont release the juicy pics and be done with it!

The guy had it coming. If he was executed, all the better. But the likes of Rowan Williams should bear in mind the families of those killed on 7/7 as well as 9/11 before commenting on whether OBL should have been killed.

Willard Whyte

6th May 2011, 05:23

Shirley.......

LOB A MAN IN DA SEA?

Nah, the original has more of a patois vibe, try singin' it to the tune of 'underneath the mango tree'.

PTT

6th May 2011, 06:20

"I get the impression that someone seems to think the way in which OBL was taken out may be of dubious legality. Who cares, well, other than Amnesty and a load of other guardian reading types, not that many. "
Due process. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process)
Moral high ground. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_high_ground)
Summary execution. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_execution)

VinRouge

6th May 2011, 07:09

How sweet! A Guardian reader!

I think we are some way past due process and your legal nonsense. The guy was a key proponent in the deaths of 3000 people in the world trade centers.

Quite frankly, a bullet in the head was too good for him.

LT Selfridge

6th May 2011, 09:03

'And laying his finger aside of his nose,
And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose!'

PTT

6th May 2011, 09:21

"How sweet! A Guardian reader!" - How condescending and trollish! Nothing like a poor attempt at an ad hominem attack to confirm that you can't actually argue the point, eh?

You don't get to claim the moral high ground if you go around summarily executing people. IF he was unarmed and did not resist, or IF this was a kill (as opposed to capture) mission, then the US has lost the moral war.

If you're so sure this was the right thing to do then what is there to fear from a trial?

Pontius Navigator

6th May 2011, 09:52

I wouldn't put too much credence in the White House story changes to back up conspiracy theories.

The WH has screwed up the story and account royally

IMNSHO the White House has made a monumental strategic screw up. By changing its story once again it has both fed conspiracy theorists but more importantly destroyed its strategic integrity.

For example, deception operations in WW2 depended upon the credibilty of the information that was 'discovered' by the Nazis. There were self-evident elements of truth with credible seeds of disinformation.

Today the CIA say that OBL's computers were unencrypted, whereas every other computer captured was encrypted, and that they are gettingm huge volumes of information from them. This gels with the 'mother lode of intelligence' story, that like the initial hotreps, was released so early that is it was doubtful it the computers had even been switched on. Forensic analysis dictates that the hard drive must be copied before the computer is switched on. Who believes the CIA now?

In the ephoria of tactical success the US has made a grave strategic error; do they realise this?

Pontius Navigator

6th May 2011, 10:17

Bye bye Dilbert, go back to playskool.

Utrinque Apparatus

6th May 2011, 10:30

Oh fer Chrissake. Stop the hand wringing about the human justice involved in the perfectly lawful, even if admitted in some quarters as the ex judicial execution of the world's most hunted, self admitted and acknowledged terrorist.

This is the scum who openly laughed and joked with his cynical pond life yes men at the video of human beings who only had the choice on 9/11 to burn or jump to their deaths. The deaths of 3000 people of all faiths and creeds on 9/11 and the subsequent tens of thousands of muslims and non muslims since then rests clearly with him and if indeed he is judged by his maker under the tenets of the Koran he will be burning in hell for his crimes against humanity and outright murder.

Simpering wimps who are so concerned about Osama's well being should have tried being held captive by him or his thugs, before a bestial and degrading beheading spectacle. If he had been taken alive, the morons who follow his perversion of Islam would have been out there beheading, murdering and slaughtering innocents demanding his release - unthinkable, so no show trial was ever on the cards for him. Live with it.

VinRouge

6th May 2011, 10:40

Ptt, I dont recognise this new world order jingoistic legalese rubbish that the west seems to have come up with in the last 15 years. We fight to win. If that means slotting our enemies in their sleep, unarmed, so be it. This message is important - you can run, but you can die trying.

The death of OBL in the middle east may be treated as some as a grave injustice. Quite frankly, I couldnt give 2 hoots. We didnt win WW2 by holding back; we won by flattening Dresden and a hundred other cities to boot.

Wannabe Flyer

6th May 2011, 10:45

Well in my opinion he was killed on Pakistani Soil, therefore the law of that land should be applicable. If not mistaken they still follow some form of Sharia, therefore an eye for an eye is permitted.

Since the Pakistanis are claiming that he is responsible for so many 1000 deaths in their country then under the laws of their land what was done is legal and so as to respect their "sovereignty"" which has been dented in recent times lets not play human rights and respect the law of their land to which the SEALS adhered to. :ok: (PS: if the Pakistan Government has not filed an FIR then no crime has been committed so then stop barking).

Now let me get that new Osama Bin Ladin Cocktail going this weekend:

What was that?

2 Shots and a splash of Saltwater make one tasty cocktail. Cheers!

Edited to add the salt water!! :p

Pontius Navigator

6th May 2011, 10:46

and a dash of salt. Don't forget the sweetener round the rim :)

Utrinque Apparatus

6th May 2011, 10:53

Oh, and another point for PTT.

The farcical show trials of the likes of Saddam Hussein, Abdulbasset Al Megrahi, Milosevic and other high profile criminals and murderers for the media just to show a semblance of due process to the bleeding heart liberals prove there is no real justice in dealing with such people.

The human race is well rid of bin Laden, no matter how ruthlessly it was done. There was no doubt about his guilt as he admitted it himself with a fanfare regularly, and his elevation to the status of the victim in all this by western hand wringers is just laughable.

Had the Brits found Saddam in his cockroach bolthole I suspect an L109A1 would have avoided the cost and anti western propaganda which followed during the legal circus in Baghdad

hanoijane

6th May 2011, 12:05

Golly, the stench of testosterone on this thread is making me dizzy...

It's not about ending the life of someone who was long past his sell by date. It's about being seen to be better than your adversaries.

The manner of his demise may scare the living daylights out of his colleagues (though I don't for one second think it will) but it, and the three-or-four-versions-thus-far, sure look bad to Mr & Mrs Average sitting in their living room wondering what the world is coming to. And it's this audience which counts, dear PPRuNers, just in case you'd forgotten what your democracies were meant to be all about.

Yes, if you'd captured him the hostage beheadings would be taking place as we type. So, in effect, your actions demonstrate that the fear of further terrorism led you to place aside your own moral values. The very values which are meant to differentiate you from the bad guys in the first place.

Tell me again, who's winning here?

VinRouge

6th May 2011, 12:23

Utter c0ck. Its about winning. Nothing more, nothing less. I think the average american would have preferred to see him skinned alive than get away with a shot to the head.

And doing it in that manner doesnt show any fear of terrorists. Actually, quite the oppsite. You are quite willing to double the misery back in order that their wicked ways dont affect the rest of the population. You might want to research what the french got up to in Algeria. The fact that the other side are more than willing to use tactics against civilians using children in bomb vests shouldnt limit our guile in liquidating those responsible.

AQ have just confirmed he is dead. :E

parabellum

6th May 2011, 12:29

All this goes to prove that it is not possible to conduct a war in full view of the media, which brings that war into peoples living quarters, where they are in no way effected by the war and have the luxury of armchair observance.

Option One: Take out OBL in a SF operation and suffer the libertarians hand wringing afterwards.

Option Two: Take OBL prisoner, suffer the ritual and televised execution of tens, if not hundreds, of hostages, put OBL on trial at a cost to the public of millions and eventually, millions of appeal dollars later, execute him and return his body to his relatives for glorification.

Sorry, but it has to be Option One, no contest.

hanoijane

6th May 2011, 12:44

Option Three: Kill him quietly, very quietly, and don't crow about it.

London Eye

6th May 2011, 13:35

This is a rumour forum and I get it that speculation is allowed and encouraged. However, as many have said, before we get all judgemental on any erosion on the rule of law we should at least first try to understand the circumstances of the death of OBL. I remember one observer's comment following the tragic death of Jean Charles de Menezes that "whatever else we think when we judge the incident we should not forget that there were people who were prepared to move towards the man that they felt at the time was carrying a suicide vest with the intention of setting it off at any moment" and I for one am glad that there are such brave men and ladies around. Who knows what pressures the SEAL Team 6 members moving through the compound and house were under - I am certain that they would have expected OBL to be defended, to defend himself and probably to have been wearing a suicide vest. All of this at night and following a helicopter incident which I am sure that they had not fully analysed or understood. Regardless of any intent or direction before the raid OBL was likely to die once the mission was authorised and I am glad that the op was authorised. As for anyone getting in a twist about "a full enquiry" I think we all know where that will lead. Question one "were you in immediate fear for your life when you fired" Answer one "yes" and all corroborated by SEAL 2 - where exactly would the enquiry go from there?

On a slightly separate note, I am also slightly puzzled by the furore over the rule of law aspects of this specific event while the targeting of opposition military and political leaders happens in every conflict - how many drone killings of senior Taliban in Afghanistan recently?

PTT

6th May 2011, 14:21

The point is not that it's a bad thing that he's dead - it's not a bad thing at all, imo. The point is that it is a bad thing to be seen as a people who revel in the death of their enemy. It legitimises the actions of Bin Laden, as he did exactly the same thing, and the rest of AQ (or whoever) do too. You legitimise the actions of terrorists everywhere.
The short-sightedness of the celebration over killing a single man is, frankly, astonishing. These people are criminals, and should be treated as such - treat them as combatants and you legitimise them as equals; give them a fair trial and you show not only that they are criminals, but that you are better than to stoop to their level.

Yes, it's about winning, but you have to define what winning is. It's not the death of one man, no matter how hated. It's not the killing of Taliban leaders with drones (legally questionable, too). It's proving that this way of life with justice and the rule of law is better. It's an ideological battle, and it's one that crowing over the death of an enemy, or his deliberate targeting for death, doesn't help to win - quite the opposite, as it turns us into hypocrites. And ultimately, you can't kill the real enemy with bullets, because the real enemy is not a person, it's an idea.

Load Toad

6th May 2011, 15:48

Osama, I couldn't stand the evil SOB and wished him dead. But it would have been better - was it able, to capture him; to have captured him and put him on trial for the 9-11, London, Madrid, Bali & all the other acts he planned or inspired.

Now - if 'we' choose to 'off' him we should have our story and reasons clear before it goes public; the drip feed of truths, corrections, contradictions and rumours do us no good.

No one trusts government anymore - so - be honest. No point lying through your arse it'll get Wikileaked or similar.

'He was killed in a military operation to attempt to capture him, but no risk to our people was to be tolerated - any sign of resistance would be and was met with the ultimate force. He had his chance to face justice after 9-11, he chose not to, he chose to continue killing innocents - he selected the manner and timing of his death - not us.'

Really annoyed

6th May 2011, 16:25

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/474274/554407.png

larssnowpharter

6th May 2011, 16:34

My personal opinion is that OBL was a bit of a spent bullet; he remained a firgurehead only and was no longer - so reports tell us - involved in the operation side of things for AQ.

His death at the hands of US military may well provide closure to the many who suffered at his hands. And this is a good thing.

I am particularly glad that he lived long enough to see his dream of the re-emerging Caliphate wither on the vine of the recent uprisings in the Arab World.

Really annoyed

6th May 2011, 17:15

OBL's last words?

"I need a house full of Navy Seals like I need a hole in the head".

Lonewolf_50

6th May 2011, 17:26

You don't get to claim the moral high ground

Which is important to whom? Who do you think occupies this mythical terrain: Salafists? You? Ivory Tower dwellers?

IF he was unarmed and did not resist

Why do you assume this?

, or IF this was a kill (as opposed to capture) mission,
PTT, you really don't seem to understand. It is most often both, and either, in the same mission orders.

Mission orders for a whole slew of terrorist and non-national actors in the past ten years have been very clear: Kill or Capture.

There was a freakin' laundry list of targets under that classification when I was last in operational modes, a few years back.

YOUR nation signed up for this approach, my friend, in the infamous coalition of the billing.
Kill or capture orders, for example, were issued for Al Zaqauari.
(He of the infamous bridge in Fallujah stunt). Looks like "kill" was the option chosen, via F-16 or some such high speed armed jet.
then the US has lost the moral war.
What, pray tell, is that little fiction your are spouting? Has a moral war anything to do with killing your enemies, or are you referring to the war of cultural symbols and propaganda?
If you're so sure this was the right thing to do then what is there to fear from a trial?
I will ask you a simpler question: what is the point of a trial?

He has already admitted and bragged about his happiness in 9-11 exceeding his expectations. If you wish to give him a further political soap box from which to foam at the mouth. He chose to wage war, of an unconventional sort, going back to about 1996 with such followers as he could manage. So, he got what he wanted, a war, and got to be killed, in that war. I don't see where your insistence on a trial makes any sense, as an imperative, rather than as an option.

How about you go capture him and put him on trial?

Oh, what was that? You are unable. Funny old thing, yes? Yet there you sit on the sideline, sniping and whinging, since you Can't do.

Impotence, thy stench is mighty ...

PTT

6th May 2011, 17:55

- We try to occupy it. The invasions of both Iraq and Afghanistan and our intervention in Libya are justified on our occupation of the moral high ground.

- I don't assume it. Hence the "IF".

- I fully understand it, thanks. I am well aware of how the orders go. What I am talking about is our leaders' justification for giving the orders. The troops do what they are told to the best of their ability. Please don't shift this so it looks like I am in any way not backing the troops at all - it's about the politics.
I don't recall our nation signing up for this approach at all, actually.

- The moral war is the one which allows us (the military) to continue to act as a "force for good" and "in the name of the people". Every time our politicians order us to do something of this sort it sullies our reputation as a military and as a nation and degrades our ability to act as that same "force for good". Reputation goes a long way.

- The point of a trial is to say to the world that despite the heinous crimes OBL committed, we are still going to subject him to the rule of law. By deliberately not doing so (i.e. deciding not to capture him rather than taking the kill option because there was no other) we are saying to the world that the rule of law doesn't matter a jot and the rule of the gun does. Nice one :ok:

- I have no idea what you think it is I "can't" do. You have about me at all, so I really don't get the point of that little snipe other than it being another example of the ad hominems which simply show you don't have a point.
Impotence, thy stench is mighty indeed :}