Vans RV ownership

[Green_pilot_79]

Im wondering if anyone out there owns a RV. Looking at the rv6 /7 Would be interested to see the running costs involved

[VH-XXX]

If you can afford the fuel to feed 160-180 HP and a 100 hourly, then go ahead, a great aircraft, great speed and performance that you won't be disappointed with! I wouldn't be expecting any massive cost blowouts unless the engine is tired as some builders use used or close to out of hours engines.

The 7 is slightly more roomy but I wouldn't discount the 6 as it is very similar.

Some are still registered under the old ABAA category so international ops are still allowed with most being experimental these days. Prices seem to range from $90k for a 6 to $150k for a good 7.

You will be up for LAME rates unless you build it yourself.

[Green_pilot_79]

Looking at a second hand low hour rv. Just wondering the operating costs 100 hourlys etc. Insurance.


Won't be building. Considering some 172s also but I like the rv for speed and aeros.

[poteroo]

If you want a top RV for aeros - get an RV-8, or RV-8A. Tandem, feel great to handle, go like a rocket.

The RV-7 or -7A are much, much more comfy than the -6 models, and if you 180HP them - are faster and better handling.

RV-9 and -9A are actually the nicest to fly in ordinary A-B flying, and have lower stall speeds, bigger flaps, land slower. They do appear to perform better at 10k altitudes too - 12% more wing area.

Never been a better time to buy, even in Oz.

Look for one with a factory new engine when it was built.

The VANS performance numbers are more/less accurate - don't believe some of the bull you hear about 175k cruise. You'll find that 150ktas is the more realistic aim, and you'll get there with fuel still in the tanks.

I've had a -6, now a -9A, but have test flown, and instructed on, the whole range.....except -3's of course!!

PM me if you have specific Q's

happy days,

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The VANS performance numbers are more/less accurate - don't believe some of the bull you hear about 175k cruise. You'll find that 150ktas is the more realistic aim, and you'll get there with fuel still in the tanks.

Yes, the RV10 is a nice 150 kt machine! :E

Dr :8

[poteroo]

I'm unsure if that comment was straight or sarcastic. I hadn't considered the RV-10 in my comments. Yes, you'll pull 175 easy enough, but it's at a cost of feeding an IO-540. 160/65 is more the go. And yes, I've flown and instructed in them too.

Firstly, consider the unknowns of the amateur build. For anyone seriously considering an RV purchase ex the US, with the intent of aeros - just ask yourself whether you want to be stressing an airframe about which you know bugga all. At least the local builds have been under some scrutiny, and are probably closely built to VANS' plans.

Then we come to just what your RV has been doing in the US. Some years back there was an RV8 accident in Oregon,(?), where the airframe did fail, and as far as I know, it was due to some quite non-recommended aeros....way outside the aircrafts' envelope. You would really want to know just how many hours your US import had done in the hands of a DYO aerobating cowboy. Maybe you wouldn't!

Try to look past the panel chocka with EFIS and u beaut IFR avionics. It's the airframe build that's important.

Maybe you'd be better off doing your aeros in a local school aircraft, (Decathalon, Pitts,Tiger), which is designed for the job - and get yourself a nice 'cruising' RV which has no aeros history?

happy days,

[VH-XXX]

The Dr. is referring to Jabba's RV10 which is in reference to a "drag" that took place between them where inflated ego's took over and nobody really knows what happened :ok:

At least the local builds have been under some scrutiny, and are probably closely built to VANS' plans.

I must say that I disagree with this comment. There are no mandated inspections on Australian built experimental aircraft during the build process. The only "inspection" per-se is the cursory check for the issue of the C of A by the SAAA or CASA delegate. This "inspection" involves a basic look-over and check of the flight controls to ensure the ailerons and elevator do what they are supposed to. Blame this cursory check on the liability issues of recent times. I once watched an RV builder attaching his wings using a sledge hammer to put in the bolts, not to mention him banging in his prop bolts with an over-sized hammer; there is nothing in the system that prevents this.

An RV purchased in the USA or AUS could be a mixed bag in which you have no idea what you are getting, but hey, that's no different to any other aircraft on the market after all.

The initial purchase price is not so much important as the on-going running costs. A mate bought a second-hand RV6 and was hit with a $6k LAME 100 hourly bill as he had a leaking pot and a cracked engine mount. It's the luck of the draw really, even on a new aircraft, things happen.

In reality, RV owners are generally middle-aged with solid incomes, capable of supporting such an aircraft. If you don't fit this category and can't afford the fuel burn, $1000 - $2000 hundred hourlies with the occasional large expense, then the RV or any aircraft of this calibre maybe not your cup of tea...

Insurance is usually based a percentage of value figure, mixed with a variable on your experience and may be higher for a tailwheel versus nose wheel in the case of the RV.

QBE used to offer discounts for SAAA members that have completed their training programs for pilot proficiency and maintenance. Hard to give a ballpark for insurance, but I know people getting insurance for 1.8% through to 4% of hull value + 22-25% taxes and surcharges. Eg. ($100,000 * .03) * 22% = $3,660 + liability cover.... quickest and easiest way would be to give QBE a call and ask what it would be for your situation.

[Jack Ranga]

Donot under any circumstance buy an RV from the States, if you are tempted I will put you in touch with someone who will save you thousands of dollars.

[baswell]

No RVs are the same. The one I am looking to buy a share in is a 6 with a 160HP O-320 and fixed pitch metal prop. NVFR steam gauges with Garmin 430. In the lower altitudes, you can run it 28 lph for 140KTAS. Still need to fly it up to 9500 to see what it does there, but the previous owner suggests 150.

So if you want to get from a to b, it need not be more expensive in fuel burn than a recreational type, except you do it 40-50 kt faster...

Unless there are any parts to replace, an independent LAME away from the major airfields can do the 100-hourly at about $1000; a figure I hear from many owners.

[VH-XXX]

Had 2 mates that built their 6's at the same time. One went the metal constant speed prop and the other a 2 blade timber. You could hardly suggest that one was faster than the other. It was an interesting comparison.

Have another mate put a 3 blade constant speed on his 6 and found it went a bit slower, but was noticeably smoother and more comfortable and a little quieter.

Both of them were a 150 knot TAS machine up high in the 7,500ft+ range.

One of the guys I know took his 6 up to New Guinea and Vanuatu, 160hp C/S, that thing would still climb at close to 1,000 fpm at 12,000 ft.

The 6 does have a tendency to fish-tail (yawing) at high speed when you are pushing it whereas the 7 doesn't. Even the 10 does this when pushed.

Great performers.

Suggest the Van's Airforce forum for more info on the RV and maybe a trip to OshKosh this year.

[BronteExperimental]

RV-7 180HP C/S
Ignoring hangarage..
XXXs insurance estimate is pretty close ~2% of hull. SAAA deal through QBE still exists.
171kts TAS 40lph above 7500' - Extensively verified - this is right on book value for 180hp. I wouldn’t be surprised if 190 or 200hp -7s can TAS 175kts with the right prop -but agree a standard one wont do it.
150kts TAS 29lph LOP

Much of the time involved in the 100hrly / Annual is removing and replacing cowl / fairings / inspection panels (internal and external) which you can do yourself.
Pay a LAME to do the rest and I cant see you spending much at all.
Add a few oil changes / brake pads & tires every 200hrs, and that’s it for fixed costs.

My 2c - Don’t buy one with the training wheel at the front. The taildraggers are MUCH tougher, and they easier to handle than a Citabria/Decathlon. I can see a time where itll cost you more to insure a nosedragger anyway.;)

BE

[baswell]

One thing we found in our search is that you need to check weight figures very carefully. Some people put in a lot of stuff you don't need, layers of heavy paint, etc. Makes them look good, but adds weight.

That's one of the main reasons we went for the fixed-pitch model when we could have had a CSU for about the same price; a CSU weighs a fair bit...

Go through Air Safety Australia and pick all the RVs with collapsed nose gear... They just don't seem to be made for Australian bush strips.

[Jabawocky]

baswell

That may well be true for the early RV6A's....... There has been upgrades since then.

RV8 = pure fun.

RV7 = more room, still aerobatic and with an IO360 and CS prop it will be a great machine.

RV6 As above for 7 just more cozy but still awesome.

RV10 = A lot faster than FTDK claims.....and his V-Tail Banana boat. And that is LOP on 40LPH :E

[frigatebird]

You've gotten some mileage out of your RV, Jaba. My old hangar-share mate has been ill, and hasn't taken me for a ride in his 6a for ages. He should have finished changing the oil in it yesterday, but didn't feel up to it after something he ate.. He still wreck-ons he prefers his first-build LongEze for a cross-country, but it is down in a shed in South Aus.

[Jabawocky]

FB :ok:

Will have 375hrs on the Tach by Thursday night, and it is still two months shy of a second birthday!

J:)

[VH-XXX]

375 x 60L x $1.90 = ouch! (is the first thing that I just thought of)

Jabawocky and fossil fuels - using the past to power the future....

[Ultralights]

375 in 2 yrs? :hmm: pretty average, i have put 300 hrs on bills savvy in the past 12 months.. :ok:

[Jabawocky]

UL
Do you wanna compare miles then? Suggest you don't hehehe:}

XXX, I think the average is a bit better than 60, its overall more like 45 to 47.

Thats still about around $32.5K to $33.5K, but it sure beats walking!..............and V35B's :cool:

[Ultralights]

Milage, i will never win that one only covering about 85 every hour. but 300 hrs at 18 ltrs x $1.60 average.. ohh about $8500..... :}

[VH-XXX]

Add Jabba's fossil fuel burning large capacity engine Land Cruiser into the equation, driving him to the airport and back and you have a carbon footprint half the size of Qantas. Oh what ever happened to the Global Warming swindle thread....

Back onto topic though.... if you need to ask you can't afford to own an aircraft, but that being said, they (the RV) should be considered to be highly cost-effective in terms of pocket-rocket type aircraft. Half the speed of an L39 at a tenth of the price.

[flyingpom]

Has anyone got any experience of actually importing an RV from the states? Any tips or traps to watch for? I am starting to look at an Rv7 or 9

[Jabawocky]

flyingpom

I think you had better send me your details....or check your PM's.

This is a mine field if you do not know what you are looking for.

Recently a chap in Townsville was keen as mustard on an RV10, he wisely spent the $$ and had "The Critter" on a Jet to Texas ........who quickly had a fit at what had been done to a load carrying bulkhead. :ugh:

Give me a call with your mission requirements and I might be able to help you make a good decission.

Cheers

J:ok:

[rjtjrt]

Jab
Can you post details here as well, as I would like to benefit from your knowledge/experience.
John

[jackson's_joyflights]

Rv10 260Hp

52.5 Lt/Hr 165KTAS
55 Lt/Hr 170KTAS
60 Lt/Hr 175KTAS
Will do 65Lt/Hr 180KTAS but only up to full throttle height....

Oil/ Filter changes 25hrly about 100 per change

No other maintenance costs as new engine/ prop airframe

I budget about $120/hr for all inc insurance, fuel, ect excluding landing and airways charges.

300hrs on type.... built it myself..... PM for more details if you like

[Jabawocky]

Hey Jackons

Is that post meant for viewing by your wife :ok: Thats what I tell her too, but its kind of selective accounting there mate.

Also you need to run that engine differently. I wish I had a picture of the trip to Echuca a month or so back, TAS166 @ 41LPH with two of us and gear at 10,000'.

Here is a pic in the middle of summer, 4 POB, Tips full and a load of supplies to YRLL.
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab58/jaba430/m_IMG_0185.jpg


So lets say you run at best power and say 5000' to get the 180 knots, which they will do, this equates to around 57LPH. This will be around 85% power. Oddly enough that is also about what I see on the EMS. I think you are throwing fuel out the exhaust pipe and gunking up your valves etc.


So for running costs, lets look at some rough numbers.

Fuel approx 45-47LPH average $85-90/hr
Overhaul/replacement allowance on engine and prop $27-28/hr even with todays rate
Insurance $21/hr based on 200hrs per year
General maintenance, RAD43/47 ADinst9 etc etc etc $10 min.
Hangarage - varies a lot but say $15/hr
How about cost of finace even if you own it outright like we do, it could be funds elsewhere........ say $60/hr

Thats $224/hour before we add other things like doing Instrument renewals, or if IFR....all the data updates and Jepps etc.....

If I have something wrong....please let me know.

J:ok:

[heated ice detector]

Thought you only carry out an oil change and filter change at 25 hrs if you do not have a paper oil filter?

[VH-XXX]

If you want your engine to last a long time happily over TBO then changing the oil filter regularly is a great idea. For what it costs, it may pay off in the long run, especially with leaded fuel.

[maxspeed]

The RV-6 is only certfied for aeros with 1 POB whereas the 7 you can with 2.....so I am lead to beleive , can any one confirm?

[djpil]

and Lycoming recommends 4 months max between oil changes

[heated ice detector]

I think you only have to change oil every 4 months if you do not fly very regular, Lyc SI 1425, I would suggest changing oil filter every 25 hrs a bit overkill. a bit messy and more potential for forgetting to do it up. lyc sl 185B refers to recomendations. each to there own of course!

[djpil]

SB 480. Doesn't say anything about utilisation. All are recommendations by Lycoming of course. Read in conjunction with the CASA AD.

[Jabawocky]

XXX is confusing engine types :E

There is absolutely no benefit in doing them at 25 hours IF you are doing changes say every 4 months. Which we do about 40-50 every 3 months.

The issue is contamination from condensation/acids forming if you do not fly often and do 30 hours a year.

A healthy engine will be fine on 50 hr changes if they are frequent enough. The sump volume is going to be run at 7-12L on the big fellas anyway.

J:ok:

[baswell]

The RV-6 is only certfied for aeros with 1 POB whereas the 7 you can with 2.....so I am lead to beleive , can any one confirm?
It's not about the number of people, it's about the weight; the RV6's aerobatic gross weight is only 635 KG

Depending on empty weight, you could probably put two 60 KG people in the RV6 and with half tanks go do aeros. So it is not practically possible with two standard people.

The RV7 as an aerobatic max gross of 725 KG, enough for two reasonably sized guys and half fuel.

[RV6]

Hi Green Pilot
There is an RV6A for sale at Murray Field you might be interested in. PM me for owner's contact details if you like.

Cheers
RV6

[dale_8888]

Is it both feasible and reasonable to put a TIO-360 lycoming instead of the IO-360 into an 8? I was just thinking that the altitude performance would be significantly greater.

From what I can see, excellent layout Jaba. Is it IFR? Do you have built in oxygen?

Do RV 8 kits need to be imported from the states or is there a suppplier in Aus?

Cheers

[Andy_RR]

Is it both feasible and reasonable to put a TIO-360 lycoming instead of the IO-360 into an 8? I was just thinking that the altitude performance would be significantly greater.

From what I can see, excellent layout Jaba. Is it IFR? Do you have built in oxygen?

Do RV 8 kits need to be imported from the states or is there a suppplier in Aus?

Cheers

Why do you want to do this? The RV-8 (and others) run quite close to their Vne with the standard 200hp. Turbonormalizing it will bust Vne very quickly at altitude!

Dick Vangrunsven has opined at some length about this issue and many others in the RVator magazine (later editions available as .pdfs on their website) and elswhere. RVator is now replaced with the Van's Facebook page - check it out!

All the kits come from the states - a little bit of work and expense in the import but join the RVs_in_Aus yahoo mailing list and see who's importing already - some have containers heading this way, or at least advice on the latest, best way of handling the shipping.

IMO, ship as much as you can in one hit.

A

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

From what I can see, excellent layout Jaba. Is it IFR?

It is, but all that stuff is just Jaba's security system. He is the only person who can start the Goddam thing!

Dr :8

[Fred Gassit]

Agree with responses here, additionally

an excellent (best in my opinion) resource for Vans aircraft is

VAF Forums (http://www.vansairforce.com/community/index.php)

Ask away in there!

[Jabawocky]

Forkie

It's easy to start if you live in the 20th or later century;)

Had a DR from Georgia USA fly it today, and as per usual, just like you and chuckles.....made me look average.:{

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Jaba!

Flew out from under the "Cone of Silence", huh? We was worried 'bout ya!

Bet the Dr from the US couldn't start the friggin thing though.

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

No cones of silence......just having a ball :ok::ok::ok:

And no problems......he also worked for NASA.....with them astrodudes..... He can do almost anything.

Bastard can fly too......... Makes me sick :sad:

Got a voice mail from chuckles too..... Tried calling back but no good.....yes still alive and having a blast, wanna meet us in Katherine?