Plymouth City Airport Closure

[footster]

Closure of Airport
Sutton Harbour Holdings PLC

28 April 2011

For Immediate Release 28 April 2011

Sutton Harbour Holdings plc (the "Company")

Closure of Airport

The Company today announces that it intends to cease the operation of Plymouth City Airport by the end of 2011. Plymouth City Airport has been loss making for a lengthy period of time and the Board has concluded there is no realistic prospect of trade improving in the near future.

Plymouth City Airport Limited, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Company, holds a 150 year lease agreement with Plymouth City Council for the airport (143 years unexpired at a peppercorn rent). The Company will retain the lease following the closure of the airport.

In line with its stated intention the Company is focused on waterfront regeneration and developing new opportunities closely related to its core marine and regeneration activities.

Sutton Harbour Holdings plc


This information is provided by RNS

The company news service from the London Stock Exchange

[devon_guy]

A very sad day for the Southwest as a whole. I wonder what will happen to ASW?

[robin]

Plymouth City Airport Limited, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Company, holds a 150 year lease agreement with Plymouth City Council for the airport (143 years unexpired at a peppercorn rent). The Company will retain the lease following the closure of the airport.

I take it that this means they don't have to hand the airport back to the council but can dig the whole thing up for other uses.

Scandalous.

[footster]

As far as I understand it any sale of the land is split 50-50 with Plymouth City Council. But you dont put a redevelopment company in charge of an airport for 150 years and expect them to make it pay when land prices are nice and high.

[MaxReheat]

I heard this a few minutes ago on the R4 news. This is very sad news for the City.

However, the 'City' has prevaricated over the airport question for over 50 years and has ducked the issue at every turn so the bird has come home to roost.

Blame the local politicians that failed to grasp the nettle. :ugh:

[cornishsimon]

sad sad day but not exactly unexpected !

A very sad day for the Southwest as a whole. I wonder what will happen to ASW?


MX has already moved to NQY, ops is in the process of moving to T3 and the only real route that didnt include NQY has just started (JER)

i think they will continue as just a NQY operation under T3, however i expect the DH8's to be gone fairly soon

cs

[virginblue]

Is there anything else other than ASW at PLH that will get homeless? Like GA, air taxi operators etc.?

I am surprised that a city would sell its airport to a private company without any legal remedy to get the airport back if the private owner should at one point decide to be no longer interested in running an airport (that is - if the city itself is more interested in an airport than new housing, which may not be the case here).

[Non Emmett]

Exeter Airport being forty or so miles up the A38 from Plymouth will perhaps lessen the blow to Plymouth but it leaves me wondering how many cities of Plymouth's size in this country lack an airport. Poor old Plymouth so often seems to lose out be in in terms of jobs, the Navy or all round lack of ooomph which is sadly needed seems to me.

[birdscarer]

Its seems crazy that Plymouth is the largest city on the South coast, with a large population of students and is suprisingly isolated to the rest of the country (take it from a former janner!) and now sons airport.

That said, it has been on the decline for a decade and everyone knew it was never going to expand with the WX records, the STOL and poor location. EXT will cream off anything worth having and NQY will probably look to expand any charter traffic. Failing that, it is BRS if you want a regional hub/scheduled flights.

It may seem like a backwards step for a city that is ever increasing, but the airport never really existed in a commercial capacity. The old logo said it all - the aircraft did a fly-over and then diverted to another airport!

Sad day for any staff that are left on site - Devon is a nightmare for interesting employment at the best of times....good luck guys.

[footster]

This in todays local press

SUTTON Harbour Holdings this morning announced its plan to close Plymouth City Airport by the end of the year.

The airport operator made the announcement at 7am as the stock market opened in London.

The announcement read: "The Company today announces that it intends to cease the operation of Plymouth City Airport by the end of 2011.

"Plymouth City Airport has been loss making for a lengthy period of time and the Board has concluded there is no realistic prospect of trade improving in the near future.

Its in keeping with the citys plan get rid of the airport and keep the nuclear scrapyard that is the dockyard and build a nice big incinerator to take everybody elses crap down here. Good times ahead for the city NOT.



"Plymouth City Airport Limited, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Company, holds a 150 year lease agreement with Plymouth City Council for the airport (143 years unexpired at a peppercorn rent). The Company will retain the lease following the closure of the airport.

"In line with its stated intention the Company is focused on waterfront regeneration and developing new opportunities closely related to its core marine and regeneration activities."

Well-placed sources believe the group, which off- loaded airline Air Southwest last year, is looking to sell its interest in the loss-making airport and quit the aviation industry altogether.

Sutton Harbour last night declined to comment on what it called "rumour and speculation".

Senior business figures told The Herald an 'early warning' announcement was due to be made this morning confirming Sutton Harbour's intention to close the airport within six months unless a deal over its lease can be struck.

The city-based regeneration firm sold Air Southwest last year after the airline posted losses of £3.94million in 2010.

New owner Eastern Airways quickly scrapped flights from Plymouth and Newquay to London Gatwick, prompting heightened fears over the airport's future.

Sutton Harbour operates Plymouth City Airport on a 150-year lease from Plymouth City Council.

At the time of the Air Southwest sale, it insisted it would hold onto the airport.

But in December last year bosses admitted they were reviewing their interest in the airport after a £9.18million loss in Sutton Harbour's interim results.

Plymouth City Council has been in recent talks with the city's Chamber of Commerce and other businesses leaders over a study into Plymouth's future transport needs.

Business sources said last night they were putting together a "contingency plan" to rescue the airport from closure.

One aviation industry insider said Eastern Airways appeared to already be planning its exit from Plymouth.

The airline said it was unaware of any impending announcement about the Roborough site, while the council declined to comment.

[footster]

Mind you it is in keeping with the city plans.
Scrap the airport
Keep the nuclear scrapyard that is the the Dockyard
And build an incinerator to burn everybody elses crap from the south west

Glory times ahead for Plymouth me thinks NOT.

[Phileas Fogg]

Do what should have been done years ago, build a 6,000ft runway circa 476ft nearer to sea level than Roborough is and operate some regular aircraft types whilst taking on the opposition in NQY & EXT.

[0523 cov man]

asw can all ways have a new home at cvt 0523 covman .

[AlanM]

Sad, sad day for the region, the city (ex Janner here) and more importantly, the staff and crews at ASW/the airport.

Hard times for sure - but to close and sell off? To be left without an airport for ever is a hard pill to swallow.

:ugh:

[Aero Mad]

The scandalous closure which involved Sheffield City Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_City_Airport_%26_Heliport) comes to mind... this is just as bad. ASW will settle at Newquay, and every janner and business person alike will have to go 40 miles to Exeter.

What a shame.

[Gonzo]

Sad, sad day.

I remember sitting with my Mum, Dad and brother in the car park at Roborough, nose up against the fence, seeing the Islanders, Twin Otters and Dash 7s come and go.
Seeing all those, and the Chipmunks of the RN Grading Flight, go over the house where I grew up in Plympton got me interested in aviation in the first place. It's a shame that thousands of youngsters in Plymouth will never get that experience now. :(

[Phileas Fogg]

You wouldn't have seen a Herald, nor Heralds bearing in mind Brymon only operated one Herald, come nor go at Roborough, Roborough was a struggle for a (lightweight) DH Heron!

[4Greens]

Learned to fly Tiger Moths there via Naval College, Dartmouth. Will have a little tear.

[tony jarrett]

Looking at other airports which have had the same fate ,it appears that these development companies buy the an airport that is in the middle of two other viable ones , run the airport down over the years and slap charges on to stop people coming so they then can go to the powers to get it redeveloped into buisiness estates and housing... i feel from what i can gather from other sites that have had the same fate that the council has had a hand in the run down right from the start when these companies come in.......my opinion only....

[Phileas Fogg]

PLH's problem has always been it's size, it takes a special breed of airliner to operate in and out of PLH, a breed that are far and few between, how many airlines in UK operate airliner type(s) that can operate in and out of PLH and what are the chances of any such airline filling any such airliner in and out of PLH?

Hence PLH has been living on borrowed time for years!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Phileas Fogg

On a different tact can you recall your wheraabouts some 30 years ago for the last Royal Wedding?

Isn't it time to come clean and beg forgiveness!!!! :\

[Phileas Fogg]

Mr Angry,

This thread brought memories back to mind:

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/449817-laker-airways-civil-aircraft-inspection-procedures.html

I do recall a rumour that an unnamed individual was seen up British Airtours flagpole on the eve of William's parent's wedding half hinching a brand new Union Jack specially flown for the event.

I also recall a rumour that pPruner 'Skytrain10' bet the unnamed individual 50p that he/she wouldn't half hinch the shiny new flag.

Alas just rumours :)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Phileas

Indeed your memory is right although on the night in question I suspect it was clouded by the Carribean Airways rum punch that was taken to celebrate the Royal Wedding...Why only a fool would scale the scaffolding outside Lakers Office to undertake such a daring mission...:\

[Phileas Fogg]

A,

And that Caribbean Airways rum punch was bl00dy good stuff ... Do you recall a memo that went around the cabin crew to ensure that they stirred the punch better before serving it cos half the pax would be singing whilst the other half would be as sober as judges :)

[slowclimber]

Very sad for Plymouth, and especially for the dedicated employees who've done their best for the last few years in the face of Sutton Harbour's determination to run the place into the ground. There's virtually nothing left - they made sure that the paying operators were pushed out several years ago. But that's what you get when property developers are given some prime city land on a plate. The company who decides whether the airport is viable or not SHOULD NOT be the same company who stands to profit in terms of millions from redevelopment of the same site if it closes, not when the site is owned by the City.

Best wishes to all at Plymouth.

[fairflyer]

Very sad day but oh so inevitable. Runway length pretty much dictated everything, critically limiting. The airport was run on a shoestring, bare minimum staffing, a lean machine but very efficient with it. Very good people there.

Without any significant property portfolio underwriting the airfield side of things, it would never make a penny. You don't make money out of passengers at a place like that, ideed you don't make money out of aeroplanes directly. You need a bunch of warehouses and office blocks from which the revenue underpins everything else.

Even then, the value of the land for industrial or commercial development way outweighs it's use as a very restricted airport - in that particular case.

Is it Dunkeswell that may benefit a little from any GA migration?

[Avioactive]

Rather good time for Cornwall Council to get their backsides in gear and sell off Newquay now which they don't really want to have to run at council tax payer's expense.

Southwest runway capacity begining to look a little depleted - BAe shutting down Filton, MOD shutting down RAF Lynham, Sutton Harbour shutting down Plymouth. Year of doom on that front.

Wonder to what extent Newquay, Exeter and Bristol evolve hereon with any further development?

[davidjohnson6]

Avioactive - don't be so doom and gloom.
People in Cornwall still need to fly places - if anything Newquay's future should now be rather more secure.

[cornishsimon]

i think as far as NQY is concerned you need to keep in mind the MOD factor.

yes the raf no longer operate the airfield, however the MOD still use it on a very regular basis, just yesterday i sat in my garden as 2 tristars headed over my house towards NQY

Other airfield activities also exist at NQY, cornwall air ambulance, BIH and the new SAR training

cs

[GROUNDHOG]

Captain Blackadder I've got a cunning plan, flying from Plymouth to the centre of London and you don't even NEED an airport and it doesn't involve a helicopter either! Sometimes the craziest thoughts.......off to research it now!

[MerchantVenturer]

Wonder to what extent Newquay, Exeter and Bristol evolve hereon with any further development?

I don't follow how the closure of PLH will affect the future of BRS in any way.

Even if BRS saw all the current PLH passenger traffic migrate to it (which of course it won't) the total would still be insignificant taking into account BRS's current annual passenger throughput of 5.7 million.

What is of more concern to BRS is whether its approved £150 million expansion that would enable it to handle up to 10 mppa will somehow be stopped by the eleventh-hour attempt of the objectors to obtain a judicial review to have the planning consent overturned.

Both sides seem confident of coming out on top in any judicial review but you can never be certain of any outcome when courts become involved.

[xtypeman]

Cunning plan eh Blackadder! Must be JHE in an Islander just popping it down on the Mall and back to the Hoe for lunch then.........

But very sad to hear of PLH closure it was enevitable as soon as ASW was sold. Lets be honest what was a property and regeneration company going to do with an airport with no operator. From an ops point of view its a blessing have given up counting how many diversions I have seen from PLH. However one night it was Air Wales bolt hole when CWL/SWS/BRS and EXT where out seam to recall the whole fleet of five where there. My thoughts are with all the staff and the companies that will lose out now. Good bunch of Guys and Gals.

[GROUNDHOG]

No JHE this time, he is busy elsewhere, just a silly idea I had whilst thinking about what I have flown on often the other side of the pond. Stelios told me that everyone thought he was mad setting up easyjet with our 737's but sometimes its not the most obvious plans as you know...If it need ops though you are the man!

[xtypeman]

Thinks I will need webbed feet.......... Canary warf and back to the Sound me thinks!....

[GROUNDHOG]

Classic idea though.... whoops sorry mustn't say that.

[Phileas Fogg]

What the closure of runways at a military airbase (Lyneham) that is nowhere near to Devon/Cornwall and/or the closure of an aircraft/engine factory airfield in Bristol has to do with Devon/Cornwall!

How about the selling off of the runway and heliport in Penzance? Surely that is much closer to home!

[robin]

In English please.....

[kala87]

A sad day for aviation in the southwest. I completed my PPL at PLY, must have flown C152'2, PA-28's, Arrows and Duchesses in and out hundreds of times. ATC weren't always the friendliest, but you had the impression the airport was a tightly-run operation with high standards.

In many ways we live in aviation unfriendly times, with a distinctly aviation-unfriendly government. Airports with largely domestic-oriented traffic are having a hard time in particular. Maybe we will look back at the 1990's and early 2000's as a golden age in commercial and private aviation, before ever-increasing APD and "climate-change" issues began to bite.

[jester42]

''ATC weren't always the friendliest''
So very true for my time in the area circa the 90's. Generally bad attitude, especially from one very sour individual.

A great loss to the City of Plymouth and it's businesses.
Best of luck to the staff finding new jobs.

[eglk01]

Totally gutted my Hometown,how could they let this happen grr!!!
As everybody has said what is a city without an Airport or Heliport? i spent most of my youth spotting there and flying from there,very fond memorys of all the controllers,hosties,Pilots,friends,realy good years brings tears to my eyes,though i have lived in Hampshire since 1990 my heart will always be in the westcountry as Alan knows you are always a Janner wherever life takes you,i do hope some positive news comes soon about the Aiport which i love,it got me where i am in Aviation today,the love of Aircraft and people in Aviation was always my dream after Taking to the skies in a DC3 Back in 1983.
Kind regards
Jamie.

[Danscowpie]

Nostalgia is great but it doesn't make money.

The fact is that far bigger airports than Plymouth are struggling to come up with 3 to 5 year plans to convince their investors to continue the cash flow for the future.

Turning Plymouth Airport into a housing estate or an industrial estate is a far better return for the current lease holders and the land owners, as both will benefit from a substantially larger annual return than the airport could ever have provided.

If any of you can come up with a viable alterantive, I challenge you to provide it.
Plymouth is well served by both Exeter an Newquay Airports, a reasonable road network and a comparatively good rail link.

Why should private, or public funding (tax payers money) , secure the commercial future of an airport which doesn't have one?

[virginblue]

How much truth is in that story about plans to keep the airport open?:

Crunch talks to save Plymouth City Airport : South West : Insider News : Insider Media Ltd (http://www.insidermedia.com/insider/south-west/51703-/)

All other media make it sound as if the stakeholders pretty much have accepted the fate of PLH.

[trafficnotsighted]

Mr Parlby another management consultant with his finger on the pulse.:ugh:

"Scale back the operation and costs thus lessoning the need for Air Traffic Control Services, Radar and bar services"

Plymouth has no Radar costs as it does not have radar. The airport is on a hill
and has to a have a certain level of ATC service in order for operators to use the instrument procedures otherwise expect the aircraft only be able to land 50% of the time from October to April.

I know Mr Parlby why don't the chamber of commerce just provide one of those chaps with two table tennis bats at the end of the runway.

In fact here is a better piece of advice . If you do not know what you are talking about, do not comment or talk to people who do first to get you facts right.

[dalej123]

This is such a Shame for Plymouth. Plymouth has a bigger City and More population than Exeter so it proves that Plymouth should have an Airport. They need to extend that Runway.

I was reading they are planning to do a study into Saving the airport, Just hope it works

Thanks
Dale

[Phileas Fogg]

Dale,

They need to build a new bl00dy airport!

To extend the runway, but only by a little, they either build into a housing development or build on stilts, cost effectiveness?

What is there worth saving at the Roborough airfield, the airfield (landing strip) is 476ft above sea level thus attracts the crappiest weather, I can recall a month of February during which PLH didn't see an aircraft for the entire month whilst cloud remained on the surface, I've watched 50 seater airliners almost tripping over the pylon cables, whilst getting below cloudbase, on Dartmoor whilst trying to find the airfield, even with a marginally extended runway the writing remains on the wall for the current airport!

If there is a genuine need for a Plymouth Airport then here's the opportunity for those in a position to do so to put their money where their mouth is, there is bag fulls of land available to the south east of Plymouth, much nearer to sea level than Roborough, ripe for development for a circa 6,000ft runway airport, can even use the Roborough runway for hardcore for a decent length runway, then the marketing people can try to encourage all sorts of operators, not just STOL aircraft operators, to their nice shiny new airport.

P.S. There currently remains a runway in a farmer's field mid (ish) point between Yealmpton and the A38!!!

[rowdyyates]

My first job as an ATCO was at Plymouth back in err...1976.
Two Twin Otters and an Islander (Brymon Airways) and a few Chipmunks of the EFTS. Great fun to work there and good people...Farewell Plymouth...

[revik]

'They need to build a new bl00dy airport!'

Phileas, you've got it in one but it should have been done 50 years ago.

Many moons ago now, I wrote a dissertation about Plymouth's (Roborough's) aiport and its viablity. Research revealed a never ending deluge of consultants' reports that all came to the same conclusion (surprise, surprise) viz Roborough was not viable in the long term and the only option was a new, greenfield airport.

The result was a never ending deluge of council prevarication and buck passing; if someone had grasped the nettle in the 60s I don't think we would be having this discusson now.

At that time (the 60s) Newquay wasn't in the equation and Exeter was a small, struggling airport. With a catchment area of Cornwall and the City itself, there were over 800,000 potential passengers. The new Plymouth Airport would probably have seen Exeter decline and extend its catchment (given new services) to Exter and beyond. It had the potential to be the dominant air facility west of Bristol.

That's what 'could have been' and unless the council can come up with some sort of PFI (or even, dare I say it, EU money - one only has to look at some of the magnificent runways constructed in the backwaters of the Irish Republic) Plymouth's long association with aviation appears to be at an end.:{

[Aero Mad]

Perfect: shove this in Google Maps (it doesn't like coordinates too much so you have to scroll the map south-west a little from the A marker)! 50.36342 -3.99147

[Phileas Fogg]

Aero Mad,

That's the farmer's field runway I referred to in my post above, it has been there a long time although I understand it hasn't been in use recently.

[Phileas Fogg]

Revik,

It was EU funding that paid for the construction of the PLH terminal, the airport couldn't even afford to build itself a very basic terminal building!

At the time Brymon took the airfield lease over Roborough was a field with three grass runways, I don't recall who paid for the initial paving of one and a half of those runways but knowing Bill Bryce (RIP) as I did I very much doubt any such funding came from his pocket!

[JSCL]

Other than ethical reasons (jobs, economy etc) - is there demand locally still there for potential flights to strengthen any hope? Is there popularity that can be worked on - I dont know how the can go from just under 1000 passengers per day to less than 100 - surely demand for routes is thriving still?

[Phileas Fogg]

JSCL,

There was a time when the only business type route(s), besides such leisure routes as CI, ISC, ORK, MXN, BES or similar, to/from PLH were to LGW & LHR thus all such travellers from/to PLH, indeed NQY also, were funnelled in to the London routes regardless of where their ultimate destination in UK, Europe, World may have been ..... and this worked.

Then aviation changed, over recent years all these LoCo carriers developing otherwise unfeasible routes, beancounters start running airlines etc, and Brymon dropped a number of leisure routes in favour if trying to develop more business type routes to a number of UK destinations, this being combined with the LHR slots being taken away from the Devon/Cornwall carrier.

So, in the days of the LON routes the pax had a choice, "LON or you take the train" and 100% of flying pax travelled making the LON routes viable, more recently percentages of those LON pax have been offered BRS, MAN, LBA, NCL or wherever and this, combined with the loss of the LHR (connecting flights) slots, indicates that there aren't enough pax to make all these different business type routes viable ..... meanwhile, just as an example, the choppers and Skybus have picked up on the ISC business that Brymon threw away etc.

I believe there is business for an airport in PLH, nobody need expect to make a million from it but I believe it could be viable, a business route twice daily and once daily at weekends, Channel Islands, perhaps a once weekly summer to Palma or similar, general aviation, flying school/club or similar, and so on, but these need an airport and not a landing strip on top of a hill!

P.S. Where did you get circa 1,000 pax per day from? That would equate to filling 20 DHC8's per day but bearing in mind most are split loads with NQY that becomes 25 pax per DHC8 .... 40 DHC8's per day!!!

[JSCL]

Not quite 1000 - maybe closer to 500. I was seeing figures of just under 200,000/year at the airports peak.

[GROUNDHOG]

Phileas is right, there is a case for an airport but a modest and diverse one. The problem with Plymouth is that it has water to the South and Dartmoor plus a low density area of Cornwall surrounding it. Counting the South Hams it takes 20 minutes longer to drive from Kingsbridge to EXT than PLH ( RAC Route Planner) so that catchment area is split. With the dockyards hardly thriving is there really a case for a major airport at PLH?

Like so many of these regional airports its future lies in diversification and perhaps very limited scheduled flights, a delicate balance. Let's buy the Ark Royal and an Islander.........!.

[Phileas Fogg]

GROUNDHOG,

If one looks at St Mawgan then there is Perranport just down the road, St. Just and Bodmin a bit further etc.

My thinking was "What is there around PLH?". . There's a disused farmer's strip north of Yealmpton, a disused (I think) grass strip west of Mary Tavy, there is, or was, RAF Harrowbeer, I mean there is nothing around, the nearest airfields, I think, being Bodmin and/or Exeter.

There are businesses in Plymouth that would like to fly execs in/out, even operate their own aircraft, there are youngsters that would like to learn to fly, there are light aircraft owners, exec aircraft owners, passing military traffic etc, besides the travelling public there will be nothing around to accommodate these types of businesses.

[JSCL]

@phileas - that's a solid view. But what chances are there of commercial aviation? What routes would it actually need to survive?

[Phileas Fogg]

JSCL,

I've never been in airport commercial however much of a problem around UK is airports have taken over ex military airbases, expanses of land, tarmac etc, all of which need to be paid for, maintained, secured etc.

One airport, that springs to mind as being different, is Dundee, ideally an airport runway should be longer than Dundee but I'm talking about the size of the airport grounds, it's small and, in that respect, cost effective, get such a ground space close to Plymouth then that would be a good place to start.

An airport needs it's 'bread & butter' such as on site flying school, perhaps an exec aircraft centre, a maintenance facility, as far as airline routes are concerned well, I'm guestimating, PLH warrants a 30 (ish) seater aircraft to operate a business route morning and evening, LHR slots have gone, LGW doesn't offer enough connections, so perhaps MAN, certainly during the summer a middle of the day Channel Islands, a middle of the day Ireland service, think Ireland would work year round, perhaps CI also, that's one airliner pretty much occupied and an airport taking in the revenue from car parking, cafateria sales etc, and of course landing/navigation and aircraft parking fees, never mind the rent for the home based airline's hangarage or whatever.

[WHBM]

Then aviation changed .... beancounters start running airlines etc
I suspect beancounters have been running some airlines, particularly those that have stuck around, for some time now. It's those who were led by supposed visionaries, or those who had little commercial ability, who tended to run out of beans, and are thus no longer with us.

Regarding regional UK routes, the Whitehall bureaucrats, who of course never use connecting flights from the provinces on to overseas themselves, have consistently missed the plot with Heathrow They should have declared it a singular national resource (which of course it is), and allocated a limited number of slots, properly spread through the day, for routes to provincial cities. Thus they would have got far more political support for the expansion of Heathrow, if those from the rest of the country were to actually use it. How concerned is the MP for Plymouth about Heathrow if a) There is no service there and they don't use it, or b) It is seen by them and all the businesses of the area as their link through to other countries. And you can bet that BA would have embraced the operators of such routes as commuter feeders, knowing that if they did not the slot could not be used for the 50th flight of the day to New York, but would go across to Star Alliance or whoever.

[JSCL]

Then surely we should be welcoming and supporting Southend? Surely that's where the bridge can be built?

[Phileas Fogg]

JSCL,

If you're talking of PLH/SEN/PLH then that would work for travellers starting/finishing their travels around London but connecting travellers expect, quite rightly, to step off one aircraft and step on to the next aircraft without leaving the airport, in this respect PLH/SEN/PLH would be, pretty much, operating from one regional airport to another regional airport.

[GeneralMelchet]

As someone who used the ASW service weekly to and from glasgow, I have to say I'm surprised.The flights were always busy with large numbers of Navy personnel using the service every week.The tickets were not cheap. And for the time I used the service wasn't diverted once.Some of my fellow passengers found the low level and often bumpy transit from plymouth to newquay a bit of a trial! there were never sick bags in the seat pockets. :ooh:

There is also the Navy Dauphin helicopter which operates out of plymouth.

[diginagain]

The cynic in me might suggest that the closure's got diddly-squat to do with bums on seats.

[JSCL]

Let me tell you. The fat ladies will be singing past December.

[jetsetsimon757]

Hi everyone I am one of the admins for Save Plymouth City Airport face book group and I am asking all my fellow aviators to help us and join our growing group and make sure this wondeful airport stays open..
Just type in face book search Save Plymouth City Airport.

Thank you..

[Phileas Fogg]

Plymouth doesn't have an airport, it has a skid pan/landing strip on top of a hill!

From what I've been reading a particular Plymouth councillor (who I worked with some 28 years ago) was announcing and calling, earlier this year, for the runway to be extended whilst suggesting, if not saying it in so many words, that the airport needed such a runway extension to serve the city appropriately ... at present very few commercial aircraft types can operate in/out of the airport.

Well the only feasible runway extension would need to be a stilted one, I don't know facts and figures but I'd imagine a stilted runway extension to be mega expensive.

Thus with such advice/suggestion the council had a choice:

1. Spend a bucket load of money stilting a runway extension in to what is currently an industrial estate, or:

2. Close the airport.

[oapilot]

There is no point in extending the runway. The local population wouldn't be able to supply the demand for international routes and Flybe don't want competition for Exeter. Once the runway is long enough to let a Q400 in Flybe will simply do what they did at Newquay and undercut the competition to strangle the route.
Plymouth has a future for GA and rotor traffic, but don't see much hope for anything bigger than a Dash8-300. There's just not the demand.
Now PLH-LGW-PLH twice a day would have been interesting, but Eastern don't seem to have the stomach to annoy Flybe...

[Phileas Fogg]

oapilot,

This thread is about the airport and not about Air SouthWest, read all these other airport threads, they're all crying out for LoCo operations so why not let FlyBE in to a PLH airport?

I agree no point in extending the current airport runway, mega expensive and still wouldn't be long enough for many an aircraft type, just a shame there isn't another operational airfield close to Plymouth that could provide, at reasonable cost, a decent length of runway.

[Winniebago]

Seems almost irrrelevent, but the runway would have to be dug up and resurfaced as it's so weak today - PCN14, just about O.K. for the smallest of turboprops.

[trafficnotsighted]

Phileas -

"Why not let Flybe into Plymouth"
They could'unt if they wanted to as DHC8 400's cannot operate from Plymouths runway.

"only Feasible runway extension would need to be a stilted one"
There is no way the CAA would approve a stilted runway in such a location.

But hey as you said "you don't know facts and figures" :ugh:

[Phileas Fogg]

TNS,

"Why not let Flybe into Plymouth"
They could'unt if they wanted to as DHC8 400's cannot operate from Plymouths runway.

But a councillor has/had been calling for a runway extension!

"only Feasible runway extension would need to be a stilted one"
There is no way the CAA would approve a stilted runway in such a location.

Well take this up with the councillor that asked for it and not me, just Google for 'councillor plymouth airport' and you'll identify him, what he's said, and his address/email address etc.

And TNS,

Please refrain from misquoting me, what I actually said was: "so why not let FlyBE in to a PLH airport?" ... No reference was made, nor intended, to the current skid pan/landing strip.

[johnnychips]

I agree no point in extending the current airport runway, mega expensive and still wouldn't be long enough for many an aircraft type, just a shame there isn't another operational airfield close to Plymouth that could provide, at reasonable cost, a decent length of runway.

Exeter? :confused:

[oapilot]

Phileas,
Agree this is about PLH.
My point is Flybe don't want an airport at PLH as it dilutes traffic to Exeter, and I don't see any other LoCo falling over themselves to put 100+ seat aircraft specifically through PLH either.
Maybe if the council and the airport owners had invested more time and effort into letting people know Plymouth had an airport to fly to and from, then demand would exist.
Yes loads of regional airports want LoCos; I want a Ferrari. We can all dream.

[Phileas Fogg]

Johnny,

Let us say we compare Plymouth to Coventry, after they both had the sh!t bombed out of them during WWII, CVT has BHX 10 minutes up the road or railway line and/or be delivered to the door of LTN airport by National Express in circa 1.33 hours in t'other direction.

So, precisely how long, and by what mode(s) of transport, does it take to travel from Plymouth to EXT airport, how much does it cost and where the bl00dy hell can one fly to at the passengers desired time from EXT?

[Phileas Fogg]

oapilot,

But Plymouth has never had an airport worthy of letting people know about!

Please take this with the humour it is iintended ... would you stand up on a rostrum and announce that you are a man then make excuses why your dick is so small? :)

[oapilot]

Good point - although I don't need to, my wife does it for me!

[johnnychips]

So, precisely how long, and by what mode(s) of transport, does it take to travel from Plymouth to EXT airport, how much does it cost and where the bl00dy hell can one fly to at the passengers desired time from EXT?


Good question. It was further than I thought. 1hr 5 mins by car, 2-2.5 hrs by public transport.

However, Plymouth's routes were very limited anyway, so almost any route from Exeter would be better than the non-existent routes from Plymouth. As with most domestic routes, the trend seems to be a movement to trains: frequency seems to be more attractive than shorter journey times.

[Phileas Fogg]

EGHQ,

There is no need for rudeness thus I'm reporting your post

[Phileas Fogg]

johnnychips,

Whilst ignoring the juvenile(s) at least, were I to live around Plymouth, I could fly out on a breakfast time flight and, via a connection, be at a European destination by lunchtime and I'd be able to catch an evening flight back to Devon.

Exeter or Newquay, breakfast time flights out of the question, no public transport unless hotel the night before, evening flights back then difficult if any public transport and not in bed until midnight or later.

[johnnychips]

Whilst ignoring the juvenile(s)


What does that mean?

were I to live around Plymouth, I could fly out on a breakfast time flight and, via a connection, be at a European destination by lunchtime and I'd be able to catch an evening flight back to Devon.


But evidently enough people didn't think like you, and as I stated, two flights a day from Plymouth to London for the domestic market cannot compete with the train frequency, even if the flights are quicker (depending on which bit of London you want to go to).

I'm certainly not knocking Plymouth and will be sad to see it closed - hell, you can see from my address there's enough worries about my local airport; but sometimes the sheer tide of market economy floods over our ideal scenarios.

[Phileas Fogg]

Johnny,

Don't concern yourself regarding the juvenile remark, it isn't directed towards you.

But in the old days Brymon successfully operated 5 flights in each direction, per day, PLH/LON/PLH.

But ... because Brymon stretched the purse strings buying 3 x DHC7's they needed to sell the NQY HP7 (Dinosaur) thus PLH & NQY LHR services became combined and this happened because PLH had such a pathetically short landing strip the only airliners that could operate there were the 50 seater DHC7 or the 20 seater, fixed undercarriage, damn noisy, 150kt cruising speed, DHC6, one couldn't have an optimum sized aircraft on a route, perhaps 25, 30, 35 seat airliner, because no such STOL airliner existed!

I read a remark here recently that pax still complain (vomit) about the low level (bumpy) flights between PLH/NQY/PLH and memories returned, I did that journey one morning in a DHC7, a 15 (ish) minute flight that I can best describe as like being inside a tumble dryer, by the time I arrived in NQY my tie was at half mast and I was sweating profusely, it had been an extremely unpleasant experience that I didn't repeat.

Besides London, back then, Channel Islands and Ireland services were also successful along with summer operations to/from ISC.

But long ago a PLH runway became realigned and lengthened, limited other aircraft types, Do228, Do328 etc. could operate there but still the base airline insisted upon a 50 seater aircraft on a combined (NQY) and unpleasant/inconvenient schedule basis, I recall there was uproar from the Cornwall locals once they lost their direct services and became subjected to routing via PLH. at least then were transitting in the right direction of LHR, do you imagine the Plymouth locals were any happier being subjected to routing via NQY which was in the wrong direction from where they wanted to be?

I know hindsight can be a wonderful thing, some airline's ago, and due to particular circumstance(s), PLH & NQY services became combined, how many years ago was it that the PLH runway became realigned and extended, that's how many years the based airline(s) have had to uncombine these services however they have failed to do so, PLH airport has failed because the base airline(s) continued to operate an inappropriate size of aircraft!

[CelticRambler]

But "the train to London" doesn't just go to London, does it? It stops a few miles up the road, then a few miles further, and a few miles further again. How many passengers per week get on a train at Plymouth and don't get off till they reach London - are there figures for that?

When passengers do the time-cost-benefit analysis, sure, they'll frequently choose the longer ground-level journey that makes numerous stops on the way rather than an expensive uninterrupted flight and no amount of marketing will change their minds. So the airlines need to offer a different product.

[Phileas Fogg]

Brymon operated a DHC6 service PLH/ODH one time but only as a 'one off' whilst the Captain was making mention of 'Mayday'.

[Xeque]

It's sad news. I think the rot set in way back when Brymon lost the Heathrow slots and were re-located to Gatwick. Newquay and Plymouth to London City should have been successful but the routing imposed by ATC to get them around the London TMA outbound and Gatwick inbound blew it because it added so much flight time.
I used the Newquay/Heathrow service a lot during the 70's using the Brymon HP Herald when I was working in Saudi Arabia. It was a fabulous connection with either the BA flights to Dhahran or the QANTAS flights to Bahrain. Flights were always popular because so many 'janners' were working in the Middle East at the time. The breakfast beer sessions at Terminal 1 LHR on arrival back from KSA were legendary.
So, farewell Plymouth. You were one of my stops when I did my first solo cross-country when learning to fly at Bodmin. Shedding a tear or two as I write.

[Skipness One Echo]

Newquay and Plymouth to London City should have been successful but the routing imposed by ATC to get them around the London TMA outbound and Gatwick inbound blew it because it added so much flight time.
Very interesting, I didn't know that was a problem. LCY is a problem go get to airspace wise though in some ways.

[johnnychips]

But "the train to London" doesn't just go to London, does it? It stops a few miles up the road, then a few miles further, and a few miles further again. How many passengers per week get on a train at Plymouth and don't get off till they reach London - are there figures for that?


Had a look at rail times to London. 3-3.75 hours, basically hourly, some trains make only four stops, some a lot more. Surprised it took that long.

[Bergholt]

Lots of gradients and curves between Plymouth and Reading. I think trains can only go at full speed between Reading and Paddington.

[EGTE]

The train takes the best part of an hour just to get from Plymouth to Exeter. Mainly, of course, due to the circuitus (whilst scenic) route that Isambard Kingdom Brunel was forced to choose due to Devon's topography.
That additional hour is why air services from Devon's 2nd city to London have tended to work whilst those from Exeter have been, and always will be, unsuccesful.
If you then factor in the rail jouney time from the west of Cornwall just to get as far as Plymouth one can see that a London service from Newquay should be viable.

[CelticRambler]

Hence my question about the numbers remaining on the train all the way to London. When you have a community so far removed from (in this case) the capital city, the people there have a long tradition of ignoring it ... and vice versa. Logically, to those of us who have grown up within spitting distance of a busy international airport, a regular air service is the way to improve the link, but humans are not logical. :}

It's not realistic to simply provide the connection to "somewhere" and expect it to flourish and remain viable without also making a determined effort to give an entire county reason to believe it serves a purpose or that it will be maintained long-term. In areas such as Devon&Cornwall - as in many parts of France - the locals have their cynicism reinforced by the frequent failed attempts of outsiders to impose on them a different mentality.

Not that that's stopping me from trying to do exactly the same. ;)

[Devonair]

As well as having pretty mediocre rail links, Plymouth also has NO motorway. It is incredibly isolated for its size. Government policy is to build high speed train corridors North and when they do go west they usually go along the M4 corridor to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea. Add to this APD taxes - for some regions air travel is the only viable option and the peripheral nature of Devon and Cornwall is only going to get worse.

[robin]

Plymouth also has NO motorway

When I lived there we tried to get upgraded links and instead of spending money on infrastructure, some bright spark had the idea that planting a road sign calling the A38 'The Devon Expressway' would suffice at a fraction of the cost.

[Yak97]

So if Plymouth is closing why have Eastern (Air Kilroe) applied for a route licence to Guernsey?

GTB 138 Air Kilroe Limited to operate a scheduled passenger service between Guernsey and Plymouth.

[Aero Mad]

Hang on, ASW already operate GCI - PLH??

[xtypeman]

Its probably because of AOC change. The current licence is for ASW that is disappearing but Eastern as such does not hold a licence therefore has to go through the process of obtaining a new licence in their name.

[jabird]

When passengers do the time-cost-benefit analysis, sure, they'll frequently choose the longer ground-level journey that makes numerous stops on the way rather than an expensive uninterrupted flight and no amount of marketing will change their minds. So the airlines need to offer a different product.

I'm not sure if we're comparing like with like here?

PLH-NQY-LGW means two sets of sitting at the gate (+1 set of security), taxiing, take of, climb - and only then can the table come down, although for the PLH-NQY sector is goes straight up again!

Now that is a hell of a lot of hassle for a short sectory, which still only delivers you to Sussex, not central London (well, the outer edge of Zone 1 at least).

The train v plane debate has often focussed around a threshold journey time where people will prefer to take the train. This has typically been 3-4 hours for biz pax, but imho it is getting longer as wifi becomes standard practice and laptops + mobile devices get more & more powerful.

So yes - each stop of the train will add 10 minutes to journey time, and maybe someone will sit at the table for four you have to yourself but otherwise there is no inconvenience.

Of course, biz pax can spread out more in 1st class, whereas my suspicion is that all the discretionary leisure pax will have been totally put off by two sets of APD. Now there is the real injustice - leisure flights out of EXT to Spain which support the Spanish economy very nicely thanks get taxed once. Take a PLH-GLA flight to support the UK economy and get taxed twice. Actually if the sector features a stop, is that APDx4? Always confused on that one!

[Phileas Fogg]

LGW in Sussex, W. Sussex, jabird?

When I worked at LGW the airport postal address was Horley, Surrey but the phone numbers were Crawley, West Sussex ..... it got so confusing they introduced a postal district of Gatwick, W. Sussex however the border between the two counties is the River Mole and that passes underneath the LGW runway and airfield. :)

[jabird]

Hmm pf - not sure if we are in Judean People's Front territory here, I think we are! West Sussex would still be in the ancient county of Sussex eh?

Just don't tell me The Hague is the capital of Holland ;)

[Phileas Fogg]

Den Haag is the capital of The Netherlands jabird ..... Not that I lived in the Holiday Inn, Leiden for an entire summer ... there's no such country as 'Holland'.

There are 2 different counties, East Sussex and West Sussex, much the same as there are a number of 'Yorkshire' counties but LGW is part in W. Sussex and part in Surrey.

[xtypeman]

Must be sad but checking the OS all of LGW is in West Sussex.

[jabird]

pf, that is exactly why my statement is incorrect on two counts ;)

Amsterdam is still the constitutional capital even though DH is seat of govt & royalty.

I was just being lazy about Susses 1st time round, was born in Cuckfield, but I will confess to needing to look up if it is East or West. It isn't as if there is a big wall between them, but I am glad we are all such pedants on PPRUNE ;)

[Phileas Fogg]

But there's still no such country as 'Holland' :)

[jabird]

I know! Like I said, the original comment was 'don't tell me that'...... - ie it was wrong on both counts! There is no such country as Holland, therefore Den Haag couldn't be its capital.

Now where are those application forms to join the People's Front of Judea!

[Phileas Fogg]

Amsterdam is/was famous for being the capital of something(s) ... just not famous for being the capital of The Netherlands.

In my day the airport's recognised IATA code was 'SPL'.

[jabird]

I think Amsterdam is capital of lots of 'things' or 'actitivities'!

Yes, one of a handful of cities with two IATA codes & one airport - CAS/CMN & PEK/BJS spring to mind. Correction - Beijing also has NAY, but PEK refers to Capital Airport, not a generic code for the city.

Whoever designed the IATA coding system (err IATA perhaps!) without disambiguation between so many cities and their respective airports (GLA <> PIK etc) created a major oversight!

So back to PLH, what will happen to the code? The land is presumably reasonably attractive to developers, being so close to the city?

[Phileas Fogg]

PLH airport is what it's all about ... real estate ... and PLH is an airport I worked at previously ... if one hit a cricket ball, whilst wearing a fireman's helmet in case of a 'bouncer', across the runway it scored a '4' :)

What you said previously agreed with what I said previously, PLH & NQY services became combined due to a financial restriction, of a particular operator, some 28 years ago .... they've had all this time to uncombine these services and the public have voted with their feet.

Beancounters and Aviation ... Let's not even go there!!!

Meanwhile ... If you want a pretty damn good Cornish Pasty then Portreath Bakery is the place to go :)

[jabird]

Meanwhile ... If you want a pretty damn good Cornish Pasty then Portreath Bakery is the place to go

Thanks, you seem to get around a bit pf ;)

I will be in PLH for an annual bbq in August. Some are flying down from MAN whilst they still can, but even if I was coming from up there, the train journey around Dawlish is still a real treat imho. (Maybe that's why some ppl preferred the train) Will also head across the Royal Albert Bridge and hopefully make it down to Penzance.

As for PLH, the thing with airports is they are very good users of land when you are considering footprint of two airfields against the land take for comparable rail or road. But a runway takes up the same amount of space, however much it is used. Combine low usage with attractiveness for other uses and the result is obvious.

[Phileas Fogg]

Trust me, buy a pasty at PB and tou will not regret it, there was agreement of this in the NQY (Nookie) thread that seems to have disappeared, perhaps we're not allowed to discuss foodstuffs :) however PB have branched out around the Redruth area so worth a 'Goggle' :)

Problem with PLH is it's always been a landing strip (skid pan) and never a 'runway' although I did witness a Caravelle touching wheels with a circa 1,250ft paved PLH runway surface one day!!!

And as for Mrs Jones and her bungalow, off the threshold of runway 24, and the ornaments rattling on her mantlepiece ..... Well, one day, a Sea Harrier sorted her out as he went it to a hover over her garden ..... her garden was flying higher than the Harrier :)