crosswind landings, side slipping woes

[Plasmech]

I'm having a bit of a rough time mastering the side slip, which is obviously) necessary for crosswind landings, at least the type of crosswind landings my CFI wants me to do. Due to the fact that short final is such a, well, short amount of time, even with 30 or so crosswind landings under my belt I don't feel like I've had time to master it. Say I'm landing on runway 27 and the wind is out of 180 at 5 knots. My CFI will say left aileron, right rudder. I try my dangest to execute that command but it always seems like I either put in way too much aileron or not enough, and never enough rudder. I think him verbally commanding me to do two opposing things is causing background confusion for my brain as well...maybe if I just did it...

So let's say I am on final for 27, being blown due north at a speed of 5 knots. I should line-up on the runway and bank the plane maybe...3 degrees (?) to the LEFT...but put in just enough RIGHT rudder to still be pointed at the center-line. It's this simple, right? I might have to add a little power due to the fact that slipping is inefficient, even a gentle side-slip. This doesn't seem like it should be so tremendously hard to do but for some reason I get all messed up out there on a windy final.

Any words of wisdom or tips/tricks for learning how to "master" the side-slip? I think once I have this maneuver down, I'll be in great shape as it doesn't get much harder than a crosswind landing during non-emergency flight in sane weather, at least I am supposing it doesn't.

[BackPacker]

You're a guy right? Remember: We are bad at multitasking.

When I started flying I could manage two control inputs more or less at the same time, but three was too taxing. Here's my trick of dealing with it.

Once I get to short final (say 15 seconds to go) I use the rudder to align the fuselage with the centerline. I then lock in that amount of rudder and don't move my feet anymore for the next few seconds.

I then use the yoke/stick to fly the aircraft to the centerline again with the correct speed, and maintain the centerline by adding or removing some bank. But I don't touch the rudder while I'm adjusting the bank angle. This will keep the fuselage more or less aligned with the centerline.

Once I'm on the centerline and have the correct bank angle to compensate for the crosswind, I check whether the fuselage is still aligned and if necessary apply a bit more or less rudder. I then lock in that amount of rudder again, and start playing with the yoke/stick a bit more. And I keep cycling between those two modes all the way to the flare.

But trying to work all three (pitch, roll and yaw) at the same time never worked for me during training. And now that I've got my license I still have trouble sometimes, particularly when I'm rusty or tired. I then simply fall back to this technique. So during those last 15 seconds you may find me making a rudder adjustment only four times or so, but pitch/bank adjustments almost continuously.

Oh, and the other thing that helps a lot is to be on the right speed, pitch angle and approach path before you transition from crab to sideslip. This means you don't have to make large power changes or pitch changes anymore. Particularly power changes have consequences for yaw and roll. Yes, a side slip introduces extra drag but you compensate for that by dropping the nose just a fraction, not by feeding in massive amounts of power.

[JW411]

Try thinking of it in another way. I have always taught my pupils to do it the other way round; in other words, you crab down finals until the last hundred feet or so. In your example, the nose would therefore be to the left of the runway centreline.

So, try applying sufficient right rudder to bring the nose around so that it is now exactly tracking the centreline and, as you do that, apply left (into wind) aileron to balance the effect of the rudder and stop the aircraft from drifting off the centreline. Don't be put off by the amount of aileron that you might need. It will probably be more than you think you need. (Don't be worried about this; you would have to put a hell of a lot of aileron on before you even get close to scraping a wingtip).

I am therefore suggesting that you MENTALLY think rudder first followed by aileron (although, in parctice, both happen at the same time).

Obviously, the into wind wing will end up by being lower than the horizontal in order to stop the cross wind picking up the into wind wing. Ergo, you will land on the into wind main wheel(s) first.

Now then, having taught this technique for more years than I can remember, the biggest problem then is to persuade the student to keep the into wind aileron firmly applied when the wheels touch. So many pilots seem to instinctively "put everything back in the middle" when the wheels touch the ground.

In a really strong crosswind this can end in a serious outbreak of tears. The wind gets under the into wind wing and off we go "aux vaches" as our French colleagues put it, off the upwind side of the runway. Remember to "fly" the wing until the roll out is complete.

Even then, always remember that the landing is never finished until you have parked the aircraft, shut the engine(s) down and have got the chocks in!

[Fuji Abound]

Wing down - way better. ;)

[Jan Olieslagers]

Do not believe there is any fixed way to do it right. No two landings are the same. You will just have to train until you can be reasonably sure to make it. For me, that took MUCH more than 30 times around. And lots of patience from my poor instructor.

[Conventional Gear]

Perhaps from your post you are being taught just the forward slip, this is fine and best to learn first. Else it is really hard to apply it at the end of a crab. It sounds like you are looking for a magic control input to sort the problem. Not going to happen, all the way down the amount of input keeps changing as the wind is not constant. Just cancel the drift with bank, keep it straight with rudder and carry a few knots for the position error and inefficient flight mode. Remember don't remove the inputs when you touch down, it's likely you may need to end the landing running with full aileron into wind and whatever rudder to keep going straight.

I would also check where you are looking during the landing flare. All landings are harder if you don't look well out from the plane, crosswind are just worse still if you look too close in.

Remember, whichever 'method' you are being taught it is training, in the end most people use both crab and wing down combined. Personally I found it much easier to learn crosswind landing using the wing down technique throughout the approach than the crab and kick it straight method which during training never came out too good. Partly because I was rubbish at judging when to kick it straight, partly because I didn't have the confidence to transition to wing down quickly enough to stop any drift before touch down.

Main thing, enjoy, it gets easier in time. :ok:

PS remember if doing a forward slip the 'picture' out of the cockpit is a bit odd, if it isn't clicking ask your instructor to demonstrate a couple of landings and just fix on the picture that day, it will help you pull off a couple of reasonable crosswind landings and help with the confidence.

[trex450]

as you will come to discover the beauty of the wing down method is that if you are not holding the centre line with full rudder deflection then the crosswind is too strong, regardless of what the book or reported wind is. This can be very handy if you are landing at an airfield with no radio comms to the ground and only one runway available.

I personally line the aircraft up with rudder and then roll into the wind until the centre line is held. Of course you need constant correction as you get lower and the wind changes and in gusty conditions, as with all elements of flying practice makes perfect.

enjoy learning!

p.s. your landings will be smoother with it as you will be landing on one wheel at a time. Even in no wind try landing with a little bank on at touchdown to make your arrival gentler. :)

[P.Pilcher]

In my SPL days (and I have still got mine - it was a full student pilot's license with cardboard cover) I was taught to hold the crab attitude until the roundout and, the instant before touchdown, kick or P-U-S-H off the drift with rudder. I managed to do it that way when I got my PPL and thought little more of it except to accept that cross wind landings were a bit of an "arrival". The year after I qualified, I found myself on my hols in Canada and wanting to fly a light aircraft. I obtained the required "Tourist Pilot's Permit" and reported to the local airfield for a Canadian Style checkout on a Cessna 150. (Yes it was that long ago!) We had a crosswind and after a couple of circuits my instructor said: "Huh - I guess you were taught by an ex-RAF instructor. Here we do crosswind landings like this: You drop the wing which is into wind and then line the aircraft up on the runway with rudder. You can easily put a C150 down with 30 kts. across that way - no sweat!"
On my third circuit, I tried this technique - it worked and I was rewarded with a pass so subsequently, I spent quite a few hours exploring the outskirts of Toronto, Lake Ontario and Niagara Falls with my own friends aboard.
Since that time I have always used this technique for crosswind landings and can confirm that it also works on all S.E aircraft I have ever flown including Chipmunks, all light twin engined aircraft, Trislanders, Twin Otters, Shorts SD 330/360's and Jetstream 32's. Other friends and acquaintances have confirmed that it also works on Boeing 707's, Boeing 747's, Viscounts, Heralds and BAC 1-11's. Don't know about airbuses though!

P.P.

[Plasmech]

I think what might be messing me up a little is (and I discussed this in a thread several weeks back) that there is a lot of resistance on the rudder pedals due to my CFI resting his feet there, and also sometimes he might be putting in a rudder input which might not be exactly what I was going to put in and it's like too many cooks in the kitchen. It may be that the only way I truly learn crosswind landings (maximum of 12 knots according to the Cessna 152 engineers/test pilots by the way) is to do them solo so I have full authority over the aircraft. When I did my first solo on Sunday, I noticed that the rudder was a LOT easier to manipulate without a set of feet riding on the right seat pedals.

[BackPacker]

Is he still doing that?

TELL HIM TO GET HIS $%^&* FEET OFF THE PEDALS. And if that doesn't work GET ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR.

If you have control then that also includes the rudder pedals. They're not for him to use as footrests.

:ugh:

[Conventional Gear]

You really don't want to learn crosswind landings solo. It may end up very messy. I had a few after considerable circuit training went more than a bit odd.

How come you admit to issues, then it's suddenly the instructor again?

Crosswind landings are difficult to master.

Some go wrong.

Some are good.

Some instructors are better than others at teaching them. (my experience).

IN ALL though it takes practice practice practice and more practice.

If you land aligned with the runway and with zero drift, it is a good crosswind landing (assuming you hit the runway you were aiming for). That is it, can't be the instructor in my opinion UNLESS he needs to be putting in those rudder inputs to save flesh and metal?

The instructor feet thing really isn't that big of deal. When I did tailwheel yes you get some fighting the controls, it's little wonder though because without the help I would have bent several aircraft learning just like they did in the good 'ol days when pilots were rare and planes disposable.

I would suggest reading what is said above regards crosswind landings. There is a lot of good advice and either put up with the instructor or get a different one. :ok:

[mikehallam]

I saw above a few replies back that old saw about increasing IAS to compensate for position errors when side-slipping ?

IMHO when side slipping (say to the left) the pitot sees the wind coming from the left at an angle, not straight ahead, so its forward component is less & it measures LOW. At the same time the air over the wing is coming at the same angle, so the chord it sees is increased, but it still functions as a wing.

[Depending where the static is it might not notice (balanced side to side types e.g. Jodel) or it could see a higher sideways component and thus read even lower compared with true airspeed - or the opposite.].

Consequently I always fly the same indicated speed on a side-slip as on normal 'finals'.
Increasing the speed even more seems to be at best arbitrary, is not in my pilot's notes and contrary to the aims steepening an approach to get in without gaining speed & thus excess energy.

mike

[Conventional Gear]

It was me 'carry a few kts for position error and inefficient flight mode'

It is very true increasing IAS may not be required on some types.

Though I also think it is worth remembering here we are talking about a very mild slip during a wing down approach compared to the full on taildragger express elevator down type approach which Mike might be thinking of.

In all, gusty conditions, plane producing more drag, it might be better to think in terms of more power and watching the IAS with care when doing a forward slip crosswind landing. Certainly I find it needs more power to arrest an increase in descent.

I have to say though that in the Super Cub I've always been advised to carry an extra 5 kts in a full on slip to lose height to compensate for position error. Could be wrong could be right, the instructor is massively experienced with tailwheel so that's what I do.

[Tinstaafl]

If you're not finding sufficient time to practice the technique(s) then your instructor needs to make that time. If practicing each aspect of the whole method is difficult because of the other aspects then your instructor needs to isolate the interfering parts until your competence with each part is sufficient to leave more capacity to deal with more variables.

I prefer teaching wing down initially. There's more time & opportunity for the student to perceive what's happening, decide on a response & effect that response. It's also easier for the instructor to isolate parts for the student to practice.

Wing down: From a wings level crab into wind, yaw the aircraft until aligned with a reference point, usually the middle of the end of the runway. As the yaw is commenced use opposite aileron input (ie yaw left will require right roll input). Some of that aileron input will be to stop the secondary effect of yaw and some of it will be to lower the wing. You'll need an initially surprising amount input.

My thoughts about resolving your issue:

Have your instructor take you to somewhere with a long runway with a stiff, but not gusting, x-wind component. On the way there practice L & R sideslips up to full rudder deflection at lowish altitudes but stop/start the sideslip amount ie establish a small sideslip, then increase a bit, then a bit more etc. Do the reverse to reduce the sideslip.. The aim is to be able to hold the heading constant with reference to an external aim point while changing the AoB. The lowish altitudes are to help see the sideways component of the flight path.

At the long runway have your instructor demonstrate establishing the aircraft flying over the runway centreline in the wing down/sideslipping state. Lower the wing a bit more - while using even more rudder to keep the aircraft aligned - the s/he can move the aircraft upwind towards the runway edge. Maintain that position for a few moments then reduce the AoB/rudder input a bit to allow the aircraft to drift back to the CL. Stop the drift with more aileron. Start the drift again until over the downwind RWY edge. Stop it. Sideslip upwind back to the CL. Stop it.

While your instructor does this you need to have your hands & feet on the controls to feel how much input to make when it's your turn. Don't look in the cockpit, only at the external cues. Then it's your turn!

If co-ordinating all three axes + throttle is too much at first then your instructor needs to take over one or more of those inputs while you focus on a single one or two of them eg you control heading with rudder while your instructor does AoB, pitch & throttle. Once you're using your feet, then you can do the wing down while your instructor does the rest. Then you do both rudder & AoB, instructor on elevators & throttle (s/he should be able to move the column without interfering significantly with your inputs). Next you do rudder, AoB & altitude with instructor using throttle to hold speed. Eventually you'll do all of it under control while flying above the runway.

The next part is to reduce power gradually while still holding position over the CL. You'll need ever increasing control inputs as the speed reduces. When the wheels touch make sure the throttle is closed, continue adding more control inputs. By taxi speed you should have full aileron applied & whatever rudder is needed to counter weathercocking.

Your instructor should be **lightly** touching the pedals to feel what you're doing but *not* interfering with your inputs. You, on the other hand, should be pushing as hard as is necessary to make the heading go where you want.

Not everyone needs the method broken down into so many steps. You may not. Often the upper air practice is enough to bed-in the sideslip size of control inputs & co-ordination so the student can manage rather more when it's their turn to sideslip L & R across the runway.

One of the keys is that co-ordinating the sideslip control inputs needs to be as second nature as normal aileron/rudder co-ordination. Also a stiff, steady-as-possible wind so that your inputs are the variables, not the external environment. Lastly, part of an instructor's job is to off-load some of the workload until the remaining tasks are within the student's available capacity - splitting the job into manageable tasks which are then combined as capacity & skill develop.

[Conventional Gear]

Just like that.

OP Needs to do a few of them to sort out the crosswind landings :E

Still scares the living c**p out of me doing that in Cubs, but it is very addictive :}

Just watched it again right to the end, that is one very skilled pilot, very nice fast taxi :ok:

[Lister Noble]

I fly an L4,but obviously must try harder.

edited to add,that's a real one ,not a sim;)

[Conventional Gear]

I fly a flapless Super Cub (real one).

If you weren't taught to side slip like a looney you have missed something Lister for sure. I have terrible problems really committing to it but keep working on it.

Shame these days fast taxi is rarely taught either, fact is if one can fly it and land it without bending it, one should really be able to fast taxi it too as the elements are all there.

[Mark1234]

Looks like he went to the same school as the guy that did my tailwheel rating - albeit in a decathlon. Certainly opened my eyes a bit at the time :ok:

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have found that if a new pilot is having trouble doing crosswind landings it often due to the fact that for the first time in their training they actually have to actively use the rudder. It it is very easy to get lazy feet unless your instructor keeps after you and so it is unnatural to be in a position where constant and variable rudder application is necessary to keep the aircraft aligned with the runway centerline. When I teach this maneuver I emphasize "the keep straight with rudder" verbally reminding them to do this in the flare. The bank angle will take care of its self as the student instinctively banks toward the centerline (more bank if downwind of the centerline, less bank if upwind).

In the Cessna single engine series aircraft less flap also makes crosswind landings easier, I tell my students to initially limit flaps to 10 deg for crosswind landings.

Finally there seems to be an almost universal tendency in flying schools to approach at too high an airspeed. This especially complicates crosswind landings as it leaves the student juggling the aircraft in an unnecessarily prolonged flare

[Red Top Comanche]

I have to agree with backpacker.

You CANNOT learn if someone else is on the controls.

I have 400+ hours, including complex and IMC and was joining a club in France. The instructor doing my check ride would not stop "helping" at the last moment by pulling the stick (a DR310), he would then complain about balloning or something else No amount of telling him seemed to work, so I now belong to a different club.

I just fly the plane in line with the runway and kick the plane into line with the ground about 2 seconds before touchdown, add a little into wind aileron to balance and then move it progressivly to full into wind aileron as I roll out. Seems to work but you need to find your own way a little bit.

Have Fun

[RatherBeFlying]

Wise words from Tinstaffl, especiallyThe next part is to reduce power gradually while still holding position over the CL. You'll need ever increasing control inputs as the speed reduces. When the wheels touch make sure the throttle is closed, continue adding more control inputs. By taxi speed you should have full aileron applied & whatever rudder is needed to counter weathercocking.I would add that once you have properly lined up on final, it is time to sort out how much correction you need to track the CL, be it crab or wing down. Then, of course, you must continually adjust all the way down through final, flare and rollout.

Transitioning to flare is the time to put your eyes on the far end of the runway (yes, stop looking at the instruments). Peripheral vision will show you how high the wheels are relative to the grass, asphalt, cement, sand, gravel...

And yes, a long runway is a good place to work out your first crosswind landing, especially as such runways generally don't have trees and buildings close by that make nasty effects in crosswinds. There is nothing quite like holding a near full rudder sideslip all the bumpy way down in the lee of a ridge -- then having all the crosswind disappear 30' above the ground in the lee of the trees.