EK A380 crews need not fear Indian turnarounds!

[Plank Cap]

India to ban foreign inbound A380s | Aviation | AMEinfo.com (http://www.ameinfo.com/262956.html)

[Sonny Hammond]

Really?

This is a ploy by the 'clever' indian politicians to extract some of EK's profits out of any 380 ops it will do.

There will be 380 turns to india....

[Sonny Hammond]

Sonny-

Why do speak with such authority?

Do only 2 class 777's do turnarounds?

Do A380's do turnarounds already?

No authority req'd.

[Sonny Hammond]

Furthermore,

The mere fact it is in the press and the indians are 'reacting' to it probably indicates it is closer than you think...

[saywhat]

Oh no...No Indian turns....How sad:}

[Sonny Hammond]

Just keep denying it. That'll work.

[Bypass ratio]

Sonny, A3Lately-800 driver is just upset that in another 2 years when he has to go back to the A330 for 6 months before his upgrade, he will be banished to Indian turnarounds for the forseeable future. He really needs to stop saying Super all the time on the radio because he sounds like a ********....!! Now, lets see where your flying today:ok:

[Sonny Hammond]

:}:*:}



The following errors occurred with your submission:
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That should fix it.

[Bypass ratio]

Hey Speedbrake, where's the logic in this:

21APR OMDB - KJFK

A380 13hours 11 mins
Cost Index 180
ECON Cruise
TRIP Fuel 176.0 tonnes
Passengers 489
Payload 54.8 tonnes

B77W 13 Hours & 13 mins
Cost Index 35
ECON Cruise
Trip Fuel 111.1
Passengers 360
Payload 48.8 tonnes

Both Aircraft @ MTOW

So the A380 carried 6 tonnes more payload and burnt an extra 65 tonnes fuel!!

[cuberoute]

Yeah but bypass ,

A380 its carrying another A320 worth of passengers to New York .It has 34 extra Business class seats , 6 extra First Class seats , 89 extra economy seats and 6 tons extra freight .When full it has to have a superior yield .Its always full

All for only 5 tons an hour extra fuel! There is no comparison in passenger comfort . Its the new brand for Emirates . Passengers prefer the A380 .

Sounds pretty good to me.

[Trader]

cuberoute--I agree--except with regards to pax comfort. Biz class is far superior on the 777. The 380 biz seats are cramped and poorly designed. Sit in economy on the 380 and see how long it takes to get a service and for the cleanup afterward.

[pool]

If you go by numbers, then it's still not impressive.

360kgs of fuel per pax on the fatboy, versus 308kgs per pax on the T7.
And apart from that 6 tons of remaining load for freight on the fatboy versus 12 on the T7.

The fatboy was planned to do the westcoast, it still can't reach it. It has been planned to uplift masses from the subcontinent, down there they are intentionally slow to build up the compatible infrastructure. At the moment it is doomed to fly routes that make it look very thirsty.

How the beancounters show more profit on the 380 remains a mystery to me. Especially when considering how many customers have paied Y and have been upgraded with miles or simply because of overbooking in the back.

[fatbus]

EK does not have the rights to adding unlimited number of seats to India , has to be approved by the Indian Gov.
330 to 777 to 380 would make sense as the approval comes in.
West coast on the 380 is planned when the 21Ton increase in T/O weight is approved.
EK says the 380 is a big money maker someone must be right or i forgot EK has all those pilots who know better the marketing team.

[three eighty]

Biz class is far superior on the 777. The 380 biz seats are cramped and poorly designed

Trader surely you jest?
How can you compare a 777 business class seat that lies at 170˚ crunching your b*lls when you slide down the seat after an hours sleep to the 380's 180˚ flat bed? The 380's bed while narrow is more comfortable. Thats without even mentioning the bar in the back that halves a passengers perceived flying time. The 777 is a fantastic machine but lets face it, from a passenger (and EK) perspective the 380 is a winner - and yes that applies to economy too, the seats are wider, the recline better and ICE has more to offer.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Guys... You are not comparing apples with apples. The 777 has neither shower spas, nor lounges and bars. If you do the numbers for a high density all Y 777 ~450 seats against a high density A380 ~900 seats the economics become clearer. You need TWO 777s to move the same number of bodies.

[Oblaaspop]

Jeez you guys, honestly:ugh:

For those 'B777 is better/cheaper to run than the A380' preachers, don't you think you'd better pass on your immense wisdom to senior management? I mean clearly you have the 'bigger picture' and have access to ALL the data required to make your assumptions........

Quick, tell TC before we take A380 number 16 of 90 (and probably a whole lot more) as surely your wise technical data is something he hasn't considered when ordering the worlds most expensive airliner!!:rolleyes:

Think about it chaps..... This company may not treat us particularly well at times, but they are damned good at making money, and IF the A380 is the white elephant you guys intimate it is, then clearly the company wouldn't have ordered half a billion of the things??????

[Trader]

three eighty--just personal choice! 777 biz is more comfortable for me and I know a few others (a few banker friends who travel constantly) who agree. The 380 biz class is a SQUEEZE when it is reclined.

The bar on the 380 is great!!!! I enjoy it, that is for sure. But on the flights I have been on only a half dozen or so seem to use it!

Economy is economy!!! I certainly didn't notice the seat differences. What I did notice is the length of the service and how long we sat there with the 'empties'!!!! This is a complaint of everyone I know who has travelled on it.

In 1st the shower is, as I understand it, very popular.

In the end the 380 is popular with pax because it is still a novalty. It IS quiet though!!!!!!

[pool]

I know its apples compared to Granny Smith, but hey, its fun to compare, isn't it?

Sure enough the 380 product is better. But you can add a shower, a bar and insulate a T7 to match the 380 - and it will guzzle as much fuel with the same comfort.

Then for the more math prone: If you take the JFK numbers and compare 2 380 flights with 3 T7 flights .... the two 380s burn 352t, the three T7 only 333t, BUT they would haul 100 people plus 18t freight more. How about that?

But basically such comparisons are bs, in the end it's the doe that counts.
I agree that management might not be stupid and are on top of the numbers.
This said I will wait for the comments of all the fervent defenders of the 380 when the company will start lamenting about the rising fuel cost (which bird swallows more???) and use this to make us work even harder and pay us even less.

To me economy on fuel (ratio of the stuff used vs. payload) will become the major issue when it rockets up more than 150$ a barrel. Notwithstanding the environmental issue.
The 380 may have set new comfort standards, but in terms of burn it is a step backwards.
As mentioned, if they can increase the TOW by 21 tons, it will start looking slightly more logical.

[Bypass ratio]

I admit that the passenger appeal is there. I enjoy First Class on the A380 for the following reasons:

It's comfortable,
It's very quiet, &
The bar is an awsome area to pass the time & meet people.

Personally, I think the shower spa is a gimmick, but that's just me.

I know it sounds like another slinging match between Airbus & Boeing devotees but when you look at the flight plans, the numbers, the payload, the range, the infrastructure required, the Boeing 777-300ER prints money for Emirates almost regardless of whether it's completely full or half empty.

You may point to EK management making right decisions and earning the big bucks for the company, but have you ever thought beyond and looked at the complete MENA (Middle East Nations) attitude of wanting bigger, brighter and newer without proper decison making and planning? I don't think EK is immune to this thinking and personally, I think Emirates have made the wrong decision on numbers ordered with the A380 in its future expansion plans. It will definitely forsee a niche in the market but a monumental mis-management decision has been made on this aircraft.

[Sonny Hammond]

I. Can't. Have. My. Own. Facts.

What does that actually mean?

This post is hilarious. I mean, are we really squabbling about 10 degrees of j class lie flatness?

Talk about :ugh:

[pool]

No. - About 10% more fuel burn.
If you still think this is hilarious, so be it. :\

[roadrunner21]

As SLF

777 : Noisy as hell, but with fewer seats in J the meal service is quick. The seats suck though as its impossible to sleep unless you are laying on your back. ICE is pretty much the same. Y on the 777 can be described as hell on a long haul over night flight.

380 : The beds are narrower but Full Flat beats everything. Its a pleasure to sleep on. Despite the fact that you are sitting in a tupperware box ( yes acres of plastic boxes ) with your feet in a hole in front of you. Meal service can test anyones patience, sometimes it is possible to take a nap between courses. Its quite, extremely quite when compared to the 777. But god help you if you are at the very back and someone decides to have a party in the bar. ( yep a certain flyertalk member is famous for the booze fest in the back )

To sum it up if it was not for the seats, would prefer the 777 over the 380 despite the noisy cabin. All I wanna do is eat as fast as possible if needed and sleep, hard to achieve that on a full A380.

[ShinjukuHustler]

Tupperware is easier to clean, a must on some of those flights! :E

[roadrunner21]

not replying to any of the posts here in particular
but here is something that the rest of us who don't get to sit infront/behind of bulletproof doors at the pointy end think An Open Letter To The EK Community - FlyerTalk Forums (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-airlines-skywards/1209730-open-letter-ek-community.html)

380,777 or seats is immaterial , when the product you lot are hawking is being consistently devalued by "desk drivers" at your company. The title of that post is "An Open Letter To The EK Community"

http://i55.tinypic.com/11wei41.png


EGGW please moderate this post as you see fit, I was merely referring to their favorite brand of soup, that some of them eat everyday ( see image below )

http://i54.tinypic.com/xdgjn5.jpg

[Craggenmore]

EK has one of the best global marketing departments outside of McDonalds and Coca-Cola.

The largest revenue earner per annum for world-wide TV networks is sport and EK sponsors the majority of world sports.

Sports events unite the world. The A380 unites the world.

The world watches sport.

Sport is image.

EK is image. The A380 is image.

There is none larger and there will be none larger for years to come. 787 and 747x = no. A350 = no

Go to FRA and look at the Lufthansa 380's lined up; impressive. Head off to CDG and look at the Air France 380's lined up; impressive. Go down under and look at the Quantas 380's lined up; impressive. When BA get their 380's for LHR, it will be equally as impressive. From a marketing perspective, they make the 777's (and most other a/c) look like regionals.

When your load factor is an high as EK's, some extra kilos to maintain the global image is a price worth paying. You can't argue with profit.

[pool]

I just recently watched 'Jurassic Park' again on TV.
The line-up of Brontosaurs and Tyrannosaurs was impressive.
They dwarfed any other creatures, younger or older.

They're extinc now, unlike some younger or older.

[crewmeal]

VC10's get my vote lined up at LHR back in the 70's. Even GF's standard VC 10's looked good at BAH.

Go to FRA and look at the Lufthansa 380's lined up; impressive. Head off to CDG and look at the Air France 380's lined up; impressive.

I thought they only had a couple each.

[nitpicker330]

Rumor has it than when the big boss of CX was asked why we haven't ordered the 380 he replied "do you guys know how much more payload the 380 takes over the 777 on our typical routes? 7 tonnes extra is all, not worth its 200 tonne extra weight and fuel burn"

CX should know a thing or three..............

[Sonny Hammond]

Just as Qantas didn't order ANY (NOT ONE!!) 777.

Why? Old technology. (Dixon)

Qantas should know a thing or four, it is Qantas after all. But clearly don't.



777 v 380 = Fuel, tonnage blah blah.

Airport capacity constraint anyone?

As with most things in life, maybe the answer lies in between the absolutes.

[jackx123]

i'm a bit surprised to read this fuel/tonnage stuff and I'm equally surprised to see fellow pilots not having a clue how precious a slot time into LHR/JFK etc is. Has anyone a slightest clue what the cost to obtain a slot is?

Into LHR peak slot is valued at sterling 30 million.

[pool]

Nobody is denying the cost advantage of a big one vs. a smaller one in terms of slots, overflight charges, crewing, turn-around cost, if you sum it up vs. passengers and revenue.

Another cost factor is the price of the airframe and the after sales conditions. Emirates made an enormous deal with Airbus when they negotiated price as launching customer. As they took even more airframes off the Toulouse tarmac, ones others deferred taking, they additionally got some numbers with payments deferred for many months! Airbus was grateful, the 380 production could eventually be started and they didn't mind too much about the killer-discount any normal company would never be able to sustain - they passed it on - thank you very much dear European taxpayer!

Emirates are no fools, neither are the HK Chinese. Both have profitable airlines. The difference is that EK came early and audaciously ordered a huge number of mammouths and received an enourmous discount. This allows them to operate it for many years in the profit zone. Any other company having to pay closer to the sticker price therefore calculates more to the effective operating costs and might go for the more economic solution, like CX with the T7.

Considering this, we understand that EK is happy with the A380. It's a fine product. I simply guess that when the effect of the discount starts fading out the joy will fade with it. Any future crisis, and there will be one, will see the mammouth reduced as the very first. Hopefully this takes time!

In the mean time just accept that even if the A380 seems profitable, at least for EK, it is plain and simply NOT more fuel efficient as the industry leader T7. That's all I am pretending.

[sheikmyarse]

I editted him mey be know you under stand it
As of 3 July 2007 41.63% of EADS stock is publicly traded on six European stock exchanges, while the remaining 58.37% is owned by a Contractural Partnership".[32] The latter is owned by SOGEADE (27.38%), Daimler AG (22.41%), SEPI (5.46%) and Dubai Holding (3.12%).[33]
Aabar Investments, whose major stakeholder is wholly-owned by the Abu Dhabi government, will pump €1.95bn (£1.8bn) into the company ( Daimler AG) which also manufactures trucks.

Airbus 380 is a piece of ****e,
They always justa take monney from one pockat and put in oter pockat .They hare camal fokkeres with petroddolars. Clear?

[saywhat]

sheikmyarse, when you sober up, could you please send that post through a Google Translator so that someone can understand what you're getting at. It's not that I disagree with you, it's that I haven't the foggiest what you're saying...