Why are so many EK FO's failing the upgrade interviews? [Archive]

9 points

28th Apr 2011, 03:43

Wazza, apologies, my term was incorrect. I meant to ask if non British/Canadian/Australian etc English as a first language, white applicants were being discriminated against.

3 holer, you are incorrect to imply that I made a statement of fact, I did not. I only posted a question and relayed a rumour (being careful to make it clear that it was a rumour). After all this is the PP-RUmour-NE. Why are you so quick to attack? What is your agenda?

Harry - Is what you say fact? More detail please, date ranges, numbers etc. If your info is correct I would love to believe it but could you be more detailed?

RUMOUR has it that the interviews are now much harder than a few years ago, this seems to be reflected in the change to the EK minimum pass gradings in the sim etc. Now raising the standard is a good thing but it must be fair to all ethic groups. EK should not discriminate against FO's whom only 5 or so years ago were welcomed as future Captains and whom in many cases were Captains in their previous airlines.

So what's the truth???

Bypass ratio

28th Apr 2011, 03:52

Statistics are filled with lies & damned lies. Some weeks it maybe as high as 80% and other weeks as low as 10%. I think you have to look at the overall figure before jumping to conclusions. Everyone is capable of passing there command. Some just talk themselves out of it at the interview......Good luck to all those in the pipeline.:)

fluffy5

28th Apr 2011, 09:05

put simply, it is where the fo's have been trained in house in the uae. Any guys who have the nuts to speak up, know exactly what I am talking about. On the exit interview to be released to start basic type rating on the 320, there have been some, let's say unique understanding of how basic aerodynamics, or even the grasp of the english language. This is across the board of any ethnic groups, not just local. But as in the emirates some are more equal than others.
Oh I forgot, I have a pair now, as I have left the land of sand and sun.

Fluffy

Alconguin Crusader

28th Apr 2011, 14:20

Why are so many EK FO's failing the upgrade interviews

Two words;

"The Stasi".

Get that East German out and the failings would go down.

Oblaaspop

28th Apr 2011, 15:23

Was it just me or did Fluffy's post make absolutely no sense at all? :confused:

SOPS

28th Apr 2011, 15:25

Obs..its ok..I thought it was just me that did not understand:E

White Knight

28th Apr 2011, 19:14

Ok. I admit it - Fluffy's post confused me too but I didn't want to be the first to admit it:}:}:}

harry the cod

30th Apr 2011, 00:00

Alconguin Crusader

Sorry mate, he's not the problem. The problem lies in the quality and pysche of some of the F/O's coming through. Whilst I genuinely don't know why there's a discrepancy between fleets, SP is fair during interviews. Whatever people may think of him, a fool he is not. He researches all the candidates background and physc results and uses this information to direct his line of questioning. He's very effective at highlighting a weakness which is, after all, what people need to be made aware of. Most guys will get a month or so to prepare before a second interview. Better now than struggle through a course and actually fail 'officially'. Then you only get one more chance! You may be interested to know that the last four guys all passed.

Anyway, when I fly with some guys that have bits of paper for everything, speak poor English, have poor RT, can recite emergency briefs backwards but don't apply them effectively and can't fly the aircraft for toffee, is it any wonder the airline thinks a bit more right seat time is required. Heard about the bunch of Brazillians coming up for upgrade. The ones being 'coached' by a fellow compatriate. The same one who gives them the 'FORDEC' decision making model Funny, I could have sworn EK used Assess, Action, Manage!

We are begining to see the consequences of lower standards and of F/O's flying with paranoid Captains. We will also begin to see the effects of having low experienced training Captains. One recently applied after only 6 months of command time.....his first jet command. I recently flew with a brand new F/O. The new LTC told him never to take his bottle of water off the aircraft as he will get fired, that the A/P should be engaged at 200' and disconnected 'only when landing clearance is received' and don't try to do a CDA in case you get unstable! This F/O and many others are our future Captains. Is this how we are training them?

If so, this airline may be on an insidious slope towards long term damage, both in safety standards and in reputation.

Harry

pool

30th Apr 2011, 04:26

Amen to that Harry. I do not agree with a lot of your stands, but here you are spot on.

I would like to add that besides the obvious low standard of experience or skill of some of the recruits, still a lot come in with adequate standards. But as you pointed out, the training mentality at EK then never stops to beat every common sense and handling skill out of them during the next few years. Not difficult to breed such failure rates for later when you try to upgrade them.

As of SP, well, you state the he is very good at highlighting weaknesses. Then he might apply this to himself and realize that his greatest weakness is his poor self esteem, paired with his blatant lack of aviation skill (not knowledge, mind you, there he excels) and a complete absence of peoples skill (CRM). He might then assess himself being the wrong man at the wrong position. He should try to clean up the documentation mess at EK. With his theoretical knowledge and being able to work alone in a hidden office, nicely on ground, that's where he belongs and where he would display his greatest value to the company.

a345xxx

30th Apr 2011, 06:40

Just a thought... Before we start questioning race, religion and creed... could we consider that those who failed aren't really up to standard?

sheikmyarse

30th Apr 2011, 06:51

The fact is that EK ineherently creates the conditions for low level captains to be produced and this is true now as it was in the past...but becoming worst and worst with the expansion.
It is an oppressive and ass licking prone environment runned on terror.
Per my experience interview questions are always the same taken from a restricted database and I doubt the German guy has such a scientific approach.
Anyway so much trust into psychometrics and psychology, which are unexact sciences by definition, is and would be in this case even more ridicolous and is just the expression of the paranoia behind the scene at higher floor and generally widespread in that society. Memorizing a sufficient amount of informations, getting the easily retrievable info on LOE scenarios and other gauges ,having had a remissive attitude (low head, a lot of " Ohh I see"..) not having called sick too much and having basic flying skills will land you a left seat on a wide body. Luckily with todays technology and reliabiltiy my grand mother could fly.
If you have a little of personality and you tend to be ethical just forget EK.

falconeasydriver

30th Apr 2011, 07:10

My previous mob (UK) had a fairly sensible approach to the upgrade process i.e they put you forward when you were ready. Hence there was an approx overall 85% first time pass rate, and in the mix the company was and still is very fortunate to have a majority of Commanders who are IMHO above average...based on my exp with EK guys so far.

They also did things a little differently to EK in the sense that the training department was there to TRAIN you rather than catch you out i.e. information and ideas were freely shared in public, and the whole process wasn't a big dark secret based on the KIP principle as it appears to be here. KIP = Knowledge is power

From an F/O's perspective who hopefully has a decent command of the queens English, here are a few comments or observations I've observed from friends/taxi passengers/acquaintances who have been, about too, or are going through the process.

1. Apart from a general process, there appears to be no syllabus for candidates to follow, the guidance that does exist takes the form of gouge (it wouldn't be EK without it would it?) that merely shows candidates how to tick boxes, without ever really helping them understand in an in-depth fashion..what it is they know, they don't know.

2. The Psyche Dept, how did some of the barely sane individuals who inhabit the training dept get through, and I as a normal line pilot with no homicidal or authority issues get the 3rd degree?

3. The line training, why do I get such a vast difference in opinions? and why are they so stingy when it comes to top tips? Everytime I ask a relevant question, it gets used against me as an indicator of the lack of my knowledge/preparation.

4. Being expected to know the OMA inside out, rather than for instance have a thorough working knowledge of the relevant sections/criteria.

No opinion myself of the process or lack of, because quite simply, I haven't been through it, nor will I for some time to come, but interesting on the basis that I've heard these same observations over and over again

Oblaaspop

30th Apr 2011, 07:47

Interesting points Falcon.

What I think is common throughout the airline industry is the inaccuracy of peoples perception of their own ability.

Let me explain.... How many times have you been warned by a colleague about a particular trainer being a tw@t/@sshole/mean or scary only to find yourself with him on your next sim detail and discover that in actual fact he was perfectly ok and had deep knowledge and was a gent? The point being that unlike your friend, you actually bothered to put the work in!!!

The upgrade course here isn't hard (nor was the interview process when I did it a few years ago), but it DOES require a lot of preparation and study.

If anyone turns up 'half cocked' expecting to be spoon fed, then quite simply you WILL fail and quite rightly so. If you guys want a 12,000 dhs a month pay rise then put the god damned work into it like those before you have, don't expect to be given it on a silver platter!!!

Quite simply, if you put the effort in, have a professional attitude and turn up prepared, you WILL pass the course.........EASY. But frankly if after having sat in the RHS for over 4 years you are still unable to find or understand relevant info in the OM-A then you are a lazy git and deserve to spend all of eternity scratching your @rse in the F/O's seat....... STOP MAKING EXCUSES and start being professional.

There's an old British SAS saying "Train hard, Fight Easy". The same rules apply here chaps, the company doesn't owe you a command!!

TangoUniform

30th Apr 2011, 08:23

Obla, Me thinks you are or will be the poster child for EK TREs. Thank for exposing the basic mentality of training by many trainers. Oy mate, you sorry git, don't you know.........

Didn't realise we are "fighting". And you said it, TRAIN HARD. Anyone want to comment of the TRAINING received?

pool

30th Apr 2011, 08:32

There is a system installed.

No one can change it as it is installed top down and the paranoid sits on top. It’s all about power and the infamous ‘divide et impare’ is applied to retain the power. The absence of modern leadership qualities wouldn’t matter too much if on the lower levels you only have home grown equally immature subjects.
The pilots group however, is the one group containing way more professional who were trained in a more modern environment than any other in this society. Knowing this and knowing about his own inadequacies, the paranoid leader can either adopt a learning and adapting attitude or he can revert to the medieval repression through power system that oppresses any criticism, therefore no change will happen. It’s management by mushrooms: Everything sticking its head out of the turf gets chopped. We know what the choice is.

The second and third level of management is either as inadequate as the leader, or it adapts and adopts the same methods. Any new and good ideas get very quickly diluted and the individual disillusioned. Advancements happen only through adapting to the lowest common coercion denominator and not through competence. Such a system has proven to work for quite a long time, but each and every one has failed, just as any dictator will eventually fail. It’s all a matter of time and ability of the lower levels to cover up the mess. Quite often the leaders get their sandals polished and their paranoia upheld by them, simply to keep that privileged position in the unhealthy food chain.

On the front the symptoms of such a archaic system are loss of interest of the average employee, he performs to a very low percentage of his capacity and customer service becomes a nuisance. He will be led by coercion which means that superiors no longer thrive for a better product, but use up all their energy to bully their subjects and cling to their seat. The top guru will not be informed, he wouldn’t listen anyway, the statistics bent and the system failure deferred until it implodes with a big bang. The blame will then be put on everything but the paranoid.

The pilots group is somewhat different, that’s the reason why some symptoms show much earlier. They could be used as warning signs, however with the wrong man at the top, they are diligently disregarded.
The high upgrade failure rate is a huge warning sign. Why? Because upgrade does not happen through favoritism or creeping up something (maybe only a little number though), the selection through competence and experience should take place. This however means a basic threat to leaders, as the competent could expose his inadequacies. To avoid too much of a change, he will install filters that weed out such danger. Filters are HR, Psych department, guys like SP and so on. With a halfway acceptable training department even such filters allow some competence to be applied for advancement, but in the process the subjects are intimidated to the point that they will never question any directives from above, during training and once passed.

Therefore they become EK captains who are easily led by the wish of the incompetent paranoid. The EK books give a captain final responsibility, but if he applies it where the company does not like it, even strictly by the book, he is punished. This as long as everything goes well, the moment something happens, the leaders will instantly hide again behind their books and punish him just as much.
Such a system is very handy for the company. It would however be exposed by unions or the public in civilized countries. Not that it works fine there, but the responsible pilot has at least some legal possibilities to defend decisions and expose coercion. Here the leaders are protected throughout all levels, whatever happens it will always be the pilots blamed and sacked.

All this leads me to predict that nothing will change.

Just live with it and hope you will not be on board when the shortcomings of such a system strike.

jackx123

30th Apr 2011, 08:59

not sure why queen's english has something to do with it....

i guess the oozies, yanks, sa etc don't qualify since they have zero command of it but they do however have a reasonable command of the english language

Oblaaspop

30th Apr 2011, 10:03

TU, me thinks you are one of the very people I mentioned! Perhaps you ARE one of the lazy little gits that does c0ck all study and then EXPECT the upgrade to fall in their lap?

No-one can 'teach' or 'train' you to be a Captain. It is a frame of mind mixed with technical ability and experience. Some guys are ready for it, some are not...simple really!

But frankly if I was a TRE and you showed up for your upgrade expecting me to wipe your bottom for you and teach you stuff you should already know then you can f@ck right off back to the RHS for all of eternity for all I care.

If however you turn up having put in the work, made the effort and have a professional attitude, I would bend over backwards to help you out.... See where we're going with this? Act like a loser, remain a loser!! Got a problem with that?:ugh:

Let me put it like this, have you EVER in the history of aviation known of an occasion where someone has turned up for a sim/interview fully prepared, knowledgeable and with a good attitude and who puts in a great performance that has failed?? No, I didn't think so. There are however many who have thought they have put in a great performance but actually had a gaping hole in their ability but refuse to admit it..... these are the ones who will do their hardest to blame everyone/everything but themselves. We all have bad days in the sim and occasionally you WILL come across a sh1tty trainer (this incidentally is not exclusive to EK), but this is accounted for by flicking through your records and seeing that it was a one off because 'bloggs' clearly just had a bad day in the office...... Bloggs will not fail, he will be given the opportunity to improve and prove himself. There are however those who have crap records full of 2's and 3's who become vocal on how everything's crap, life's unfair and its all EK's fault and then vent it on Pprune! But as was mentioned above, there are many who just quietly get on with their jobs in a professional manor and gladly accept the 12k dhs pay rise.

yada.yada.yada

30th Apr 2011, 11:23

When I upgraded, I only got an 8k increase...where do I go to get the missing 4k?

TangoUniform

30th Apr 2011, 11:31

Olala, Hit a nerve did I? Wow. Let's just say, I have probably seen and been involved in more training than most here. Without a shred of doubt in my mind, this training here, historicaly (and I believe MM is trying to turn the tide), is the worst I and many contempories have ever seen. You probably know as well as I, that a true and competent captain is not measured by what he can recite but rather where to access the information and his resources.

To me it is a sad state of affairs when someone has been here for 4-5 years has to take a psyometric battery of testing and then have an UNTRAINED person in HF, human performance, and psychology, evaluate a persons ability to be a captain by the interpetation of testing that is way outdated (check the original date of the MMPI). If through line checks, PPCs, and line operations over 4 plus years you can't get the measure of the pilot; what will a two hour interview provide? Fail on body language?

I have been involved in developing training for airlines, administrating the training, setting up standards and standardisation criteria. The very very first item on the agenda is to standardise the checkers and training. That my friend is the crux of the whole matter here. And that HAS been documented here. I have seen the same filmed event been evaluated a 1 and a 5 by two different sets of TREs. You want to tell me how to prepare for that?

One example...first officer here for 4 years. Never a blip on his PPCs, line checks, highly experienced in numerous wide bodied aircraft and including several captain stints. No counseliing, no "chats" with those in cubicles about anything, no nothing....But was told he will be delayed another year, because SP wants to see another PPC result. Never an explaination when asked. Just the way it is.

Finally, Olala, I will agree, if someone shows up unprepared then they deserve not to be upgraded. However, prepared for what? Memorise the OMA, recite all of the weights, etc? Not enough asking the copilot if he is "happy" or not? But do we set or f/o's for failure? According to those in training, most failures are due to the lack of decision making ability. How do you "prepare" for that? EK beats down any decision making outside of their little box. Then it is not decision making. (eg, removed from roster until we, sitting in our cubicles, decide your decision agrees with ours) And when do firsts really get the opportunity to make decisions (re, prepare) here? When they have captains telling them to not disconnect the a/p until clearance to land has been received, IMHO, we are setting up a system rife with failure.

But there does seem to be a disparity between pass and failure rates on the two fleets. Where's the standard. If there is a high failure rate, perhaps it's time to look inwards. But Pool :D expressed the reason for that much better than I am capable of doing.

But Olala, you hit the nail on the head. If a copilot shows up unprepared don't expect for me to ........and he can f@ck off for the rest of his career in the right seat. And that does exemplify the attitude of many trainers. "Don't expect me to train, teach, mentor, or cajol your preparedness." Easier to say just F@ck off. I love it.

McGreaser

30th Apr 2011, 12:34

Very interesting topic......keep it sensible lads. We just wanna learn something and hear different opinions from those who have been there and those that make you get there .........:O (obviously will take it some of the info with a pinch of salt :Pprune DISCLAIMER)

parabellum

30th Apr 2011, 14:09

No-one can 'teach' or 'train' you to be a Captain. This is garbage.

Not really, you cannot teach personal qualities, help uncover them perhaps, but not teach them.

I have been in the SIM when highly regarded FOs have been in the LHS and things have started to go wrong, it is not a situation they are accustomed to, everyone looks at them for a decision, "A competent but inexperienced FO in the RHS" is the best they can hope for.

The physical transition from RHS to LHS is easy, one or two SIM sessions, the hard part is the mental transition from FO to Captain. If the basic materials, (qualities), are there than a captain can be constructed but if those materials are missing then no amount of training will help.

Oblaaspop

30th Apr 2011, 14:30

Yada, I can only assume that you were disadvantaged by the lack of increments. I went from 24k to 36k (approx). You basically jump 10 scales when you get a command.

It seems para and shift are able to see the obvious, but for some reason TU cant, why is that?

The 'friend' that you describe that had a perfect record of PPC's/ALC's proves my point admirably. For it was HE that told you he had a blindingly superb record wasn't it? Well if it was as good as he said it was then why was he asked for another PPC result? Surely even you can admit that it just doesn't add up? I suggest that he wasn't quite as good as he thinks he was!! Food for thought?

For what it's worth mate, I too think the involvement of the psych and HR departments is damned ridiculous and completely worthless, but that's the corporate mentality we have to deal with sadly.

Also for your information, it is utter crap to actually believe that you cannot make command decisions without fear of reprisal! I use airmanship, logic and previous command experience to do my job daily and if I have time I might or might not refer to the books, but it will always come a long way behind!

Nowhere did I say you had to memorise the books, jeez me of all people would have failed miserably if that was the case!! A good upgrade candidate should be able to wipe the floor with most trainers when it comes to knowledge from the books...... despite what you believe, that's NOT what they are looking for!

TangoUniform

30th Apr 2011, 14:41

One more reply and that's it. No one is saying here that one should not be prepared. That is obvious. Do as much preparation as possible. Don't go to your upgrade interviews etc, unprepared. The question? Prepared for what? How does one prepare for subjective material such as personality, body language and weaknesses exposed on an outdated psycometric test. "Do you hear voices?" "Would you rather get sick on a bus or hit your thumb with a hammer?"

If the product that EK delivers for training is so good, then why the proliferation of the study guide, the guide of all the questions ever asked, the systems guide? Is that the kind of preparation you guys are talking about? If it were the random failure no angst from anyone. But from the line perspective there appears to be a systemic failure of training, mentoring, and motivation and more of an atmosphere of paranoia, fear and intimidation.

fatbus

30th Apr 2011, 14:56

You just have to go back 4 or so years and see who they were forced to hire. I can remember very senior trainers saying at the time " these guys will have problems upgrading" Note : it does not apply to all

Oblaaspop

30th Apr 2011, 16:04

TU if you are looking for guidance on what to study then you are barking up the wrong tree.

As we all know, it's airmanship and leadership that will save you from crashing and not what's written in the books.

However, one must have a good 'working knowledge' of the books in order to know what might or might not be an issue. For instance if EGT says to you in interview the visibility for take off is 400m in fog, then you must consider the fact that its a captains only take off. If you miss it, then he is now gonna start to dig deeper into your knowledge and may well uncover more stuff you are unaware of. The point being, if you can impress in the first 10 minutes and not make an arse of yourself, then I'd lay money on the fact that you'd get an easy ride for the remainder of the interview. If he asks you to recite the stabilisation criteria and you fumble around for 10 minutes and come up with crap, then you will likely fail........simply put, a lot of this stuff should already be at a good F/O's finger tips.

A good keen F/O with a professional attitude will have been practicing being a Captain from the RHS for a very long time before his upgrade. He should have been trying to think like a skipper and come up with his own solutions to problems. If something arises he should assess it as if he was in the LHS, come up with an answer in his own mind, see what the capt did and look at the out come. He should be asking as many questions as possible coming up to his upgrade, he should be asking the line guys how to do the tech log, how to apply the MEL and continually ask himself 'what would I do now if x happened'. This is the attitude that will sail you briskly through your upgrade interview AND course with minimal fuss. On the other hand, I fly with some who I can spot a mile off will fail. They are the ones who, with just a couple of months to upgrade are happy to sit there reading the Gulf News, chatting up the crew and generally have 'sloping shoulders' not giving a sh1t.

These guys can fly! Their stick and rudder skills are probably better than mine in some respects, this is because 99% of their attention is given to the basic task of flying and NOTHING else. Being a skipper is 10% Flying skills and 90% management and problem solving/decision making. Like I said before being a good Captain is a frame of mind, not a taught skill. You can teach a monkey to fly, but it's unlikely you could teach it to manage effectively!

Good luck in any case:ok:

TangoUniform

30th Apr 2011, 16:33

Obla, thanks, but I don't need the luck. Been in LHS for years. And your final post, I can agree with. My points are that EK does not foster any sort professional development as other airlines do. Second, why the failures on the B and not the A? If there is a significant amount of failures, I believe someone needs to identify areas that need improvement, better recruiting, yearly performance reviews other than PPCs, evaluations by line captains...... Amazingly, other airlines seem to get along just fine without an untrained psych profiler (SP) digging into an outdated, irrelevant psychological profil test and looking for psychological deficiencies. And who determines what those deficiencies are for a pilot/captain? So throw all that away and someone answer why there are significantly more failures on the Boeing (fact) than the Airbus?

Oblaaspop

30th Apr 2011, 16:45

Maybe that result is because no one has TAUGHT them what to widen their focus to encompass items and areas beyond that which an FO will typically think about. And because no one has TAUGHT them to make decisions in a more comprehensive fashion than an FO might engage in.

Fack, I can only assume that you have no idea what the NaC course actually comprises? Check out the course footprint and you may be enlightened.

All trainees get a 2 day upgrade LOS workshop course which goes into great detail about developing a workable management model for decision making as well as giving them scenarios to work through in slow time in the classroom to get them thinking along the right lines. Not to mention the fact that ALL F/O's now get Command Development training for 6 sectors a couple of months before upgrade where the instructor also nurtures PSDM and allows them to 'run the show' as far as possible.

Again as I said before, a good trainee will have already spent many months mentally preparing for this and so should not find the course a shock. Its a lot better now than it ever used to be. At least a LOS can be paused to discuss a course of action whereas before you would just be allowed to plough on and c0ck it up! The emphasis actually is on training these days (thanks to MM in no small part), however there are some guys with the wrong attitude and approach that will never succeed regardless of the amount of training on offer......... These are the ones I suggest who continually cry foul!

(Sorry TU, assumed that by the content of your previous posts that you were approaching upgrade, no offence intended, just trying to help guys get their minds focused....... Not sure the Airbus is that far behind the Boeing now with failures as it seem DT is trying to follow in EGT's footsteps!)

halas

30th Apr 2011, 18:37

Obla is giving sound advise. Heed his info as a good bases of starting your upgrade.

Have a read of the latest training bulletin. It refers to candidates turning up for command and not even knowing their 9 memory items on the Boeing. Maybe that's why there is a disparity.

There has been little change in the upgrade interview process since l have been here. It is not new. So why is there a sudden surprise that some don't make it? History says that some just aren't prepared or have a bad day. You at least get a second chance or more. Better to find out at this stage than in training, or worse on the line, where there is "no going-back". But this has been spelled out before.

The other day l did a flight with an FO who was coming up for command. He told me his assentiveness had been questioned in the past. Well, did he try to make up for it on that flight, as his interview was coming up. It was annoying to the point of distraction on all parties involved on a late departure. There were many inputs with many questions and solutions offered. But at the end of the day there was only one answer, and unfortunately for him, after all his involvement, the decision was made by load control. Having tried to tell him he had no control over what was going on, he kept on proving his assertiveness. 10 points for that. 0 points for result.
He will make a good skipper, as soon as the assertive stigma collar is removed.

It's all about preparedness and attitude.

Good luck to you all approaching, as most l fly with will be on my OK list for the family to fly with.

halas

ManaAdaSystem

30th Apr 2011, 23:18

A good keen F/O with a professional attitude will have been practicing being a Captain from the RHS for a very long time before his upgrade. He should have been trying to think like a skipper and come up with his own solutions to problems. If something arises he should assess it as if he was in the LHS, come up with an answer in his own mind, see what the capt did and look at the out come. He should be asking as many questions as possible coming up to his upgrade, he should be asking the line guys how to do the tech log, how to apply the MEL and continually ask himself 'what would I do now if x happened'. This is the attitude that will sail you briskly through your upgrade interview AND course with minimal fuss. On the other hand, I fly with some who I can spot a mile off will fail. They are the ones who, with just a couple of months to upgrade are happy to sit there reading the Gulf News, chatting up the crew and generally have 'sloping shoulders' not giving a sh1t.

Spot on!

It's very little about flying, and a whole lot about managing.

parabellum

1st May 2011, 00:32

I'm not surprised that is the result if you have given him no training.

A properly run command course should contain no traps or hand grenades, everything you do you will have been doing previously from the RHS so it is more a case of practice than teaching. As I have said many times before, it is the mental transition from RHS to LHS that is usually the stumbling block and that may only come out during line training.

As Oblaaspop says, you can help to open up a persons mind, getting them thinking in the right direction, thinking like a captain, (which they should have been doing for the previous months anyway), but you cannot teach the human qualities that make a good commander/manager, you can only develop them.

In the military we were always taught that if you want to be promoted to the next rank up then you must behave like the next rank up.

pool

1st May 2011, 05:26

Reading through your posts I really coldn't agree more. All your points about preparation, aquiring management skills etc. are more than valid and most probably many applicants didn't completely step up to them.

But I think the main point is missed. It's the reigning culture that is a huge obstacle. All applying pilots are assessed as future captains. If there is a high upgrade failure rate, then either recruitment did a lousy job, or something happenes during the 4+ years as FOs. My point is the latter.
I observed that many FOs during their early years are first flabergasted by some events, then bewildered and finally almost intimidated.
The company pretends a lot of things, writes beautiful books and in meetings assure us of every assistance and confirm skippers of having all the authority and so forth. But then they see a skipper grilled for letting the FO land (successfully) after an engine failure (BKK), they witnessed a skipper beeing grilled of aborting at high speed when a tire exploded (DXB), they heard about a skipper beeing grilled for landing in Dyarbakir and not where the company would have wished, with an engine failure. They know about the many letters, some even warnings, to skippers for loading fuel when they deem it necessary. They read about the multiple mess-ups by a certain DCP (NRT, DXB, SIM) and must ask themselves why he's still acting PIC AND in charge of upgrade interviews. And I am not even talking about some dismal sackings.
THAT is the actual culture they are witnessing.

There is a huge dicrepancy between what is said and what is done. THAT'S what hinders many FOs to perform adequatly at the interview. They no longer go by what makes aviatic sense, or common sense, they try to accomodate the culture. But, as I mentioned, this is a double edged sword, because the company can apply what is written OR what they deem necessary. It acts in a hugely opportunistic way and this is somewhat difficult to read and live by.

I have heard about an upgrade loft beeing terminated after a few minutes simply because the trainee chose to change runway, due to lenght/crosswind reason, and because the trainer disagreed, he failed him. I can't confirm this, but it would fit the above and greatly increases fears among candidates.
And fear or intimidation, finally the wrong culture, is one of the worst enemies in aviation.

Unfortunately more pilots we encounter than not would strongly confirm this. At a wash-up the ABDCP asked if captains feel pressured by the company in fuel decision making, he was aghast to see two thirds of hands raised.

As long as this culture is upheld and its protagonists can continue nothing can change.

tatin

1st May 2011, 06:22

Let`s Benchmark upgrade:

EK : psychometric, command check flights as an FO, interview (40% fail) with chief pilot and HR (new since a year), tech exam, around 12 sim sessions, every session pass/fail, PAM markers 1-5; 5 =not given because to much work, 1 and 2= no good, 3 =below average, so only 4 is normal, an LOE, then two(!) final line checks. Half a year monitoring on line, early OPC/PPC.

KLM/AirFrance/Lufthansa (Over 75 years of experience)

Your number comes up, Operating manual exam (in case you miss you do it again after your linecheck!), around 14 sim sessions, exam, done.
Markers : standard, standard plus/minus. Excellent TRAINING.

the sense that the training department was there to TRAIN you than catch you out
On the nail!

There's an old British SAS saying "Train hard, Fight Easy". The same rules apply here chaps, the company doesn't owe you a command!!
:ugh:
Oblaaspop
that' exactly the medieval condescending SAS/RAF/military philosophy that has been critised and banned from civil aviation since CRM was invented. 'Going through the mud, like your brothers in arms, conquer and victory for queen an country' Haleluya! 'We are on (another) Imperial Mission to Trivandrum at 3 o'clock in the morning, bombs away!'
Try to rethink the training philosophy a bit, Oblaas, it's 2011.
Oh, and an upgrade is NOT a gift from the company, it's a basic right embedded in the contract you sign. Remember the EK road shows: 'A wonderful career is waiting for you!'

Payscale

1st May 2011, 06:39

Tintin... In that case I hope you work for KLM and not EK.

Are there such a thing as an SAS saying? I think their motto is Who Dares Wins...

Oblaaspop

1st May 2011, 06:55

Ok Tatin, so what you are saying is that regardless of how crap an upgrade candidate is, the likes of KLM/AF/ and LH will force them through a course at all costs which is un-failable? Gimme a break! That's probably the reason why AF continually crash all over the place (YYZ anyone?). Unionisation at is best! BTW, if they don't pass the OM-A quiz you mentioned, does it just get swept under the carpet? Is that any different to the interview here??????

Oh, and an upgrade is NOT a gift from the company, it's a basic right embedded in the contract you sign

Please oh please tell me you are kidding? NO-ONE (you or me included) has the RIGHT to pass the upgrade, only the right to have a go at it. Can you think of anyone with a decent record that has been refused the right to attend interview? Though not!

I realise English probably isn't your first language (I least I hope it's not or you are in trouble!), the SAS saying you quoted appears to have gone over your head a little! All it alludes to is saying that if you put the work in, you will find the actual task much easier....... Now please tell me you don't disagree with that as well?:hmm:

pool

1st May 2011, 07:21

Pool,as the topic starter clearly points out''rumours are that etc etc'',and you further add to that nonsense with your post about how new F/O's are ''hearing'' ''grilling'' stories.
Well personally they, the new F/O's should all stop hearing rubbish, because when you hear things they may not necessarily be exactly as events unfolded in the first place and are often fabricated to suit the story teller.

To use the term ''Grilled'' is a bit far fetched.
Whats wrong with having a meeting and discussing an event such as those that you list?Has it occurred to you that the company might want to learn something by hearing it from the horses mouth instead of going on Prune to learn about it?

Touched a nerve wv2? You sound irritated.

You qualify the forementioned as 'rubbish' and at the same time say 'they may not be exactly as events unfolded'.
Either you know EXACTLY what has happened (care to enlighten us?) or you are simply on the same level as us and only assume you know better.

Has it occured to you that someone contributing was actually involved in such an incidend and therefore could recite things quite accurately? Not doing it completely though, not to reveal his identity.

Has it occured to you that another contributor could actually have been 'invited' to a so called 'meeting', just to discover that the verdict was already on the table in print? That's some 'learning' by the company.

With the intransparent communication culture around here we have to rely way more on what we hear than in a civilized environment. You can barely blame anyone for doing that, allthough it's not without risk of misinformation, I agree.
Or do you suggest just to shut up and only use what trickles down from our leaders?

I truly hope not.

It is hard to go by the 'only follow SOP/AOM' and you're safe myth.
Too many leads show in another direction. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

But I must be wrong, as the latter is not an ECAM or AOM line.

Jihad Jim

1st May 2011, 08:26

Original Poster,
By your logic then all the current (all fleets)highly competant and deserving skippers from the Sub continent, Africa, Fiji etc etc etc are in their position only as a token quota because its all about race. Utter utter bolox.

Harry,
Im disappointed old chap. That nasty instructor syndrome. Do you honestly believe the F/Os version of events was not edited to make him look good. Really?? how long have you been at this game?Have a word with yourself.

It has also been my experience that those who shout loudest about the upgrade process perform the worst on line flights. Not due to morale, just p1ss poor skills and attitude.

As for fuel letters. Grow a set. Make a command/airmanship decision and put what you NEED on not what you WANT. Therein lies the difference. I have never met or heard of a specific name of anyone called in for NORMAL application of the above.

tatin

1st May 2011, 10:06

Oblaas:All it alludes to is saying that if you put the work in, you will find the actual task much easier
That`s so general,one can only agree with that. it's also the only thing I agree with in your post.
I realise English probably isn't your first language (I least I hope it's not or you are in trouble!)
Condescending, comes from a superiority complex of certain Commonwealth countries. 'There's widespread fog in England, the continent is isolated'.
Thank God it's not my first language.

that regardless of how crap an upgrade candidate is, the likes of KLM/AF/ and LH will force them through a course at all costs which is un-failable?
Ok, this requires some lateral thinking, are you up for that?
The upgrade candidate has jumped through a lot of hoops, except for basic ATPL etc., he has a history in the airline, PPC's exams, the lot. He is known by his records, just as EK has a similar (comprehensive) file about you.
The company doesn't treat him/her with disdain and distrust, but as an asset.
The company has a just (safety) culture. It's not 'my way or the highway' and there is room for criticism and openness.
If this candidate has weaknesses, it has been known for long through thorough and honest training where the trainer supports and implements self-confidence. These first officers have been captains in training whole their careers. There are NO crap candidates.

Ek could learn from that.

First world airline versus third world airline.

Shiftpattern:you network with other candidates, pull your finger out and study lots, and
diversity of the EK network you can appreciate that a command here probably requires a bit more work than the 'average' upgrade.
What is an 'average upgrade'?
If you benchmark against which airline why do we have a more extensive network than any other major long haul carrier in the world? EK just recently started flying to South America, a destination the majors already flew to for years. Plus the rest of the world. Don't see why this is used as an argument to 'toughen' an upgrade.
And why is the network with other candidates necessary? Lack of notes and available study material? Lack of communicating priorities versus insignificant details?
Where does this trainer attitude 'let me see what you`ve got' come from? Instead of support and training there`s still a lot of 'grilling' mentality around.

parabellum

1st May 2011, 11:12

In most of the legacy carriers, (BA may be an exception), first commands are usually on the short haul fleet where the command can be consolidated with a lot of sectors and mainly within the same climatic region and with minimal time changes. Make haste slowly.

Oblaaspop

1st May 2011, 11:23

Hey Tart (Tatin), just so that I'm clear, are you actually saying that ALL F/O's in the 'First World' airlines you mentioned are without fault and have a perfect record? Not possible my garlic breathed friend!

I'm sure that wasn't what you were alluding to, so you must therefore acknowledge that there will be a number of F/O's in those airlines who are simply not ready for/capable of transition to the LHS when their number comes up. These guys will either be delayed, or shoehorned onto a course which they would later fail in any case. Is that not what happens here?

Give me EK's pragmatic non unionised approach any day over the dinosaurs of the industry!!!

BTW I'd rather have the 'superiority complex' of a certain commonwealth nation, than an inferiority complex of one swamped in garlic and cheese!! If I had my way, I pop a couple of large outboard motors on to the UK and sail it as far away from France as possible...... Incidentally, how's the Euro doing?:E

harry the cod

1st May 2011, 12:53

Jihad Jim

Not sure why you felt the need to have a go, I actually agree with everything you have stated.

The F/O I referred to had no reason to disrespect the new LTC. He was merely pointing out a few 'nuggets' of advice that had been passed on to him during training. Knowing the culture of fear and paranoia that pervades throughout our operation, I can well believe what he said was true. As a good operater himself, with lots of experience, he actually had nothing to prove. I just think he was somewhat disappointed that the new LTC was feeding the fire of paranoia rather than encouraging the behaviour trates that we're all encouraging F/O's (and some Captains) to adopt on this thread, mainly airmanship, good judgement and a large dose of common sense. The rest of the trainers he said, were great.

I do agree with what wet vee two is saying. There are far too many rumours out there with stories being maginifed and distorted as time goes on. I also back up what pool eludes to in that the Company culture impacts on a pilots ability to make sound decisions when there is the fear of tea and biscuits. Is it any wonder then, when you consider that most of our F/O's coming for upgrade have been here approximately 4 years or so. The last three, especially those infamous 3 months after Melbourne, have hardly helped them feel easy about making errors. With everyone watching their backs and ACR's (Arse Covering Reports) replacing ASR's, what kind of culture have they been exposed to throughout that period? The problem lies in that generally, most of this fear is now percieved. (Manchester sackings were a disgrace I know, as was the handling of the other incidents. I'm not saying, however, that I disagreed with all the other outcomes.) We have had several incidents since then in which management have taken a more pragmatic approach and nobody has been fired. It may be naive of me to say, given the national culture of where we operate and who controls us, but it's a step in the right direction and may show the future intent of our Flight Ops in dealing with issues. Only time will tell!

Captains can't afford to make decisions based on fear, especially when this fear is based on perception and rumour. They must use their better judgement to make a decision that is the most sensible at the time. At least you will be around to defend it afterwards.

And, apart from the lack of preparation that Oblaaspop correctly refers to, is perhaps a fundamental reason why guys are failing interviews.

Harry

pool

1st May 2011, 13:32

Very good post harry, fully agree.

Happy to read that your perception is showing a trend to the better. I will gladly take this into making my picture about the situation, just as I feel entitled to consider negative hear-says or here-reads.

In the end it's just an opinion, just as yours, wet vee two, and we all have to take it with a pinch of salt, I agree.

TangoUniform

1st May 2011, 14:05

Couple of things. The fuel letters have raised their nasty little heads again. When one gets a letter stating you are carrying more fuel on the last ten sectors than your contempories......intimidating maybe? In years and years and years of flying and several companies, NEVER have I seen such a letter to any captain. I have eyeballed two letters recently. Does that set up a little intimidation when firsts see captains making judgement calls and get one could be construed as a mild threat. OBTW, one letter was for carrying 600kgs over the contempories, on average.

Can anyone tell me why a HR representative, who has probably never sat in a cockpit, never mind a sim., can have the ability to fail a candidate in their interview.

You guys may think there is no built in prejudice towards pilots from the lands of salsa and tango, but just ask around. Not making excuses for poor performance, but if there is a perception of such.....Well how does that not contibute towards paranoia. And if you think the flying around that part of the world is easy, I dare say you haven't flown into airports with elevations from 8000ft to 12000ft, through TRWs daily, temps 40plus, lousy ATC. I have more respect for those gentlemen and ladies and what their careers have been thus far than most of the "first" world laddies that show up here.

And Pool (excellent post), the gentlemen that failed his sim because of the runway....he didn't even get airbourne before the TRx failed him. Game over. Maybe more to the story, maybe two hours into the sim and still not airbourne, but because of the atmosphere here, many believe it on face value. "Yeah, I can believe that."

One question, ask around. How many guys have you flown with who never had received a failure of any sort in their 10,000 plus hours careers before getting here? I don't see the carnage around the world from where we have received our new joiners in the last 7-8 years.

But interesting thread, nevertheless. Truely exposes the training/checking/intimidating mindset of those driving, checking and "training" around the pit. You guys are using the old pilot error investigating technique. Yep, failed (crashed); obviously an unprepared bad pilot. Some of you gentlemen really need to get your CVs up to date for some management positions. Perfect mindset, the ONLY reason for a failure is an unprepared pilot. The only reason for a crash is a lousy pilot.

And the high speed reject going to IAH? To think they kept those guys under question immediately after the incident for several hours. A first world carrier would have allowed them to go home, catch their breath and come in and "chat" when you are up to it. FACT.

leftarmover

1st May 2011, 17:23

Interesting discussion in-between the unnecessary mudslinging by certain egos..
Now in my forth year as an Emirates checklist reader.. Without the mandate to call ‘STOP’ on a reject.. Start the aircrafts engines.. land the aircraft in anything resembling a ‘cross wind’.. etc. etc.
Truth is Emirates are not preparing their F/O’s for Command.
Thank God I came here with 1000hrs in the left seat with a ‘blue chip’ carrier that has an adult mind-set to operating an Airliner. Whom I can confirm prepare their F/O’s from day one.. F/O’s ‘sign the tech log’ on all their PF sectors.. Imagine that here!?
Mind you, no chance of Command in Emirates for me as p**is and bo***cks found retrospectively wanting at only 45tons instead of this apparently magical 55tons, funny I’d never had any complaints in the past!?:{

White Knight

1st May 2011, 17:31

F/O’s ‘sign the tech log’ on all their PF sectors.. Imagine that here!

Well - that certainly doesn't happen in most countries either! The skipper is the one who signs because ultimately the buck/sh1t stops with him/her.... End of story...

Mind you - seeing as you could possibly be Dutch I can imagine your lot 'sharing the love' and all that:}:}:}

I do though completely agree about the 55 tonnes nonsense! That's keeping many good guys and gals in the RHS!

Oblaaspop

1st May 2011, 17:47

Lefty, I totally agree with what you say! The x-wind thing along with many other policies are what we would have called 'negative training' in a previous life. I also agree with you about the 55 tonne thing.

I don't agree with some of your other points though.... before your last airline turned 'blue', F/O's were not allowed to sign the log, the CM1 only having authority to call stop is actually an Airbus (and probably Boeing) SOP - this is the same SOP that was used in my last airline on the 'Bus and the same goes for starting the engines........ no different!

But as you well know, none of the things you mentioned are actually that important in the grand scheme of things and take 3 nanoseconds to overcome on the course. With your extensive command experience, I am sorry to hear that you feel you are just a checklist reader....... you and I both know that isn't the case:ok:

leftarmover

1st May 2011, 17:49

Yeah, I have to say it did use to irritate me when the F/O signed the tech log! Not Dutch.. that was the problem..
Oblaa me old F/O! See your point about Airbus S.O.P's.
For sure Emirates need to address the seriously sloping Cockpit mentality they have at the mo if F/O's are to gain any experience in decision making on line.. Perhaps not as flat as our cheese eating friends employ mind!?

wilcoluca

1st May 2011, 18:03

what's this thing about 55 tons?

leftarmover

1st May 2011, 18:13

Emirares retrospectively changed Command upgrade policy, stating; any previous flying on a/c less than 55tons now doesn’t count towards the 4000hrs required for Command. And here we have no recourse for complaint or to challenge such nonsense. Good hey?!

Oblaaspop

1st May 2011, 18:17

Jeez, you got a good memory buddy, that was 16 years ago:eek:

Word of warning though, having also held a command at our old firm, I can confirm that the course here is a helluva lot tougher!! But as you say its clearly made easier having had previous LHS time.

Agreed, the corporate mentality here is certainly geared towards it being a 'Captains Airline', but I think it is safe to say that generally that mentality doesn't creep into the cockpit. I certainly felt an integral part of the decision making process especially when it was my sector and didn't find the gradient that steep, maybe that was just me though?

donpizmeov

1st May 2011, 18:39

I think you will find the 55t rule was here before you Lefty. So that would not make it a change for you. But you joined anyway right?

The Don

dkz

1st May 2011, 18:40

@Oblaaspop

You are right about the STOP in Airbus SOP however the start+taxi is PF's job (CM1 or CM2) ... also crosswind shouldn't be an issue in a company that only takes experienced (4000+, err 2500+ ... err ... cadets) pilots.

Techlog is company's decision so no reason to upset anyone (never liked paperwork).

(55t or not ... still b***sh*t)

leftarmover

1st May 2011, 19:13

Don; as I said; 'retrospective'. And I am not alone by any stretch of the imagination.. Disgraceful.
And sadly I would never of come if I'd actually realised how insecure my employment contract was going to be..
A 'Mc Job' compared with First World Employment. Be warned.

Praise Jebus

2nd May 2011, 02:39

I would never of come if I'd actually realised how insecure my employment contract was going to be..

What, did EK change your conditions? You're kidding me. News Flash everyone......

tatin

2nd May 2011, 05:35

Garlic and cheese and a glass of red Bordeaux any day instead of a Yorkshire pudding with over-or undercooked vegetables and pint of warm p1ssbeer without the foam, Oblaas. And you don`t need outboard engines for that floating museum of yours, it's already pulled towards the other continent by sheer magnetism.:E (Actually I could have gone much further and talk about subjects outside this forum which give away the tremendous weaknesses of a people that drives on the wrong side of the road and still think they are right about everything, but I won't do that. Not now.)

Funny that training philosophy differences comes with culture. Ancient versus innovative, progressive.

Same goes for EK, stuck in a retrospective airline culture, a business plan stolen from the first world carriers(you didn't know this, the business units ek has, engineering, flight ops etc. get a budget each year after negotiating and have to make a profit on that budget. This is still the most ancient bus. plan around and has never been changed. It has been proved wrong), the same ones that now have superior training systems.

Saying that you have a non punitive reporting system, a 'wonderful' career for Fo's, a low power distance in the flight deck and doing the opposite, is not very noble. Nor professional.

Oblaaspop

2nd May 2011, 05:36

Actually Don, Lefty joined several months before the 55t change. So having gone from a 4-5 year estimate to upgrade, he's now looking at 6-7 years. Its gonna cost him a lot of cash and extra time spent in cattle class, so he has every right to be pized off along with many others in his shoes.

Sadly without the benefit of a crystal ball, it was not possible to see the Melbourne incident coming along with the unjustifiable knee jerks that followed!

Payscale

2nd May 2011, 05:51

Varmint...

Trainers at EK should get 13 guaranteed days off, the pay should be increased, and the quality of life should be well above that of the normal line pilot. That is the only way we are going to get rid of these idiot **** trainers who get in only because of the power of the position.

Really!! I dont get your logic. More money and days off and "idiot shXt trainers will leave"???? What a gentleman you are.

I see you have a serious problem with logic thinking.

I do agree that trainer should NOT have the worst schedules. Then again these days trainers are not allowed to leave training. Leave training is also leaving Emirates!

Praise Jebus

2nd May 2011, 07:39

so he has every right to be pized off along with many others in his shoes.

Can't agree with that. Disappointed yes but not pissed off. It should be no surprise to any FO in EK when their "contract" changes, it should have been expected as an inevitability. What it changes to on the other hand is not expected. But the fact it did change...... predictable.
Join EK hoping for the best but be prepared for the worst.

ibelieveicanfly

2nd May 2011, 11:13

who can answer me this:let say if you are on the 380 and called for the interview process for an upgrade on the 330,are you going to be interviewed by the 330 or 380 chief pilot?for the tech quiz is it about general quetions or 330 or 380 related questions?

EK Snorkel

2nd May 2011, 19:39

is it about general quetions or 330 or 380 related questions?

Interview for upgrade is not really type specific. OM- A , OM-C, decision making, leadership etc.

Any CP or DCP can do your interview irrespective of fleet.

ibelieveicanfly

3rd May 2011, 06:03

ok guys thanks for your points I copied.Anyway the upgrade is not for me in the short term but any info is valuable if it is not some garbage.

9 points

6th May 2011, 15:31

What an interesting and really amusing read. Laughed out loud several times. Thanks fellas.

Pity the issue of ethnic discrimination didn't generate more response but I guess there isn't that much known.

I started this thread because several friends of mine who are more junior in years with ek are having trouble and it seemed suspicious to me that they were all from a non english speaking background. Ok it is only my circle of friends and not a proper survey but it is odd, I won't elaborate in order to preserve anonymity.

To wet behind the.. Sorry wet v whatever: All your assumptions about my rank, nationality, grades etc are completely wrong. On a personal note, my goodness, what a courteous and respectful fellow you are, it must be a pleasure for the FO's who fly with you. Wake up and take a look at yourself. :=

Cheers fellas, thanks for the good gen and the laughs.

BYMONEK

6th May 2011, 15:52

Pilots aren't discriminated against because of their skin colour, ethnic origin, religion, what football team they support.........

The most likely reason they failed is due to a lack of command of the English language. No matter how bloody good a pilot you are, if you can't communicate effectively, how can you expect to manage the operation as a Captain?

fliion

6th May 2011, 16:58

On a sobering note...

The interview pass rate is 58% on 1st attempt.

The percentage of FO's who are going from the very beginning of the process (tech, psych, CDT) to passing final ALC after training without any hitch whatsoever - is roughly 20%

That is not to say that 20% are making it on-line, its more. But hitch free - 1 in 5.

What an unmitigated systemic failure of the training system.

Shambolic - and a disturbing message to those who are considering joining.

f.

PS the sources on the above are solid, in fact just ask fleet admin.

jackx123

7th May 2011, 00:54

suck it up gents.

When i flew for the air force there were roughly 6000 applications for every 20 seats. 0.3% pass rate. no matter how good you were 20 seats were the cut off and filled, period.

I'd say out of the 6000, 5000 would be "fit" to be commercial pilots.

fatbus

7th May 2011, 14:17

And you were not the 1? Thought so

fliion

7th May 2011, 16:17

One does have to have a cathartic chuckle at the fact that the Co. on realising that no TRI's were going for TRE's because of the psych, tech, HR interview process, abandoned it altogether in order to get the candidates....and so for the first time and due to popular demand...the process has changed for TRE applicants.

Quote: "Some people dont interview that well".

Kinda funny how the the people who are tasked with arguably the company's most important safety and training tasks and who are considered the highest of professionalism, talent and experience...completely rejected the cornerstone of the process of advancing from a given position...and were duly obliged.

Do I hear credibility?

teehee.

;)

mini cooper

7th May 2011, 18:25

Fliion, so this new TRE thing, does it mean we will get more head strong, anally retentive, overly ambitious, brown nosing FOs with no prior command experience getting upgraded then accelerated into training with little time on the line, then ending up as TREs preaching to us all - or did he leave already!!!!

We have some exceptional trainers here (and some not so good ones as well) however most at least have some experience, I would just like some common sense applied during selection and training so this can be passed on.

We all know when we see someone during training that has a good grasp on the what is needed in the LHS or at least has potential . I'm not talking about the flying, if you can't do it by the time you upgrade then thats a bigger problem. I'm talking about common sense, if those coming for upgrade don't have it then surely they should be given some direction by someone with experience!!!

fliion

7th May 2011, 18:37

Mini,

I'm not knocking the trainers...I haven't come across anything but good trainers (had a couple of guys with reps - and it was a non event).

Just a little word of sympathy for the 42% who do not pass interview - just like with potential TRE's, they may not interview well.

Clearly some should fail - but beyond the bell curve - not so sure.

f.

GoreTex

7th May 2011, 23:11

good TRE's, especially on the 380, freddie k. is axing lots of captains lately, his wife brags that lots of guys call sick when they have him on their rosters. what a tosser

pool

7th May 2011, 23:35

It seems like an emirates natural law. The higher you look, the lesser the qualities required for the lower group get applied.

Would anybody bet only a fraction of the upcoming huuuuuge profit share that morons like SP or AAR would pass a psychometric test or any other test assessing common sense? I guess not one poor soul.

Climbing the ladder at EK unfortunately disqualifies.

Wizofoz

8th May 2011, 04:17

flion,

You are being a little selective in your appraisal of the change in TRE selection.

You quote one line out of a long paragraph.

We are short of TREs, largely because it is currently a crumby job with lousy rosters.

The company asked a lot of TRIs directly if they'd take the upgrade, only to then inform that, if they wanted to do this admittedly crumby job and take an even further degredation of life stye, they would have, on two days off, to attend the Psychs (and do exactley the same tests they did to become TRI), do a tech quiz, present a brief and interview before a board.

A goodly number told them to jam it!

SO they decided it was sufficient to judge someones suitability as a TRE by observing their performance as a TRI.

Kinda fair enough I would have thought...