Renting a GA aircraft with a FAA Certificate

[DirtyDan]

I'm interested in renting a single engine aircraft to fly around Australia with my friend. We are both U.S. citizens with FAA commercial pilot certificates with instrument and Multi-Engine ratings. We both are also FAA CFI/CFII's. And ideally we would be looking buy about a 90 hour block of time in a C152/C172 (or equivalent).

First of all is it even possible to rent a plane in Australia with an FAA license? If so would we need some sort of validation? Does anyone know what kind of hoops we might need to jump through?

Secondly, can anyone recommend some good places to start looking for planes? What kind of prices do you think we would be looking at? Anything in particular I should watch out for?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks You!

[Lasiorhinus]

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Converting foreign licences (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90024)

[Jabawocky]

The worst part will be gaining an ASIC card, if you wish to travel around the country and get fuel it will often be at security controlled aerodromes.

For a non resident this becomes a long and painfull task I would imagine, there was a local air tour operator with a large fleet of C172's who took guided tours of mostly American tourists around all sorts of trips, but the ASIC card killed of one of the better GA business this country had.

Several years later, what benefit have we had from the ASIC.

The link above to the CASA website should also have some ASIC info as well.

[DirtyDan]

Thank you guys for the info, I appreciate it. Is there anyone on here that has first hand experience flying in Australia with a FAA license?

[YPJT]

Read this sad tale of someone who tried to come to Australia on a flying holiday.

Dear Flying Schools,

Thank you for your reply to my query towards the end of last year about possibly flying in Australia. Sorry I have not replied to you before now (I am blaming the CASA). As it happened, we decided to get all of our paperwork sorted out first before getting back to you, and unfortunately, dispite allowing a good 3 months for this, it did not happen. However, I am not writing to you so as to complain, but just to inform you about the kind of problems foreign PPLs are having who might like to fly in Australia while on holiday. I think its important for flying schools to know what is going on, and more importantly, it is handy incase you get further requests from people like us, to be able to give them some advice!

Firstly, 3 months is not enough time to sort out the application, and this is not due to postage delays. A letter from Germany to Australia takes less than 2 weeks. We sent the application forms and very quickly got the CASA numbers assigned to us. Then .... nothing!

We thought we would call to chase the application after a couple of months. This is therefore my first tip: get a Skype account. Reason: they kept me on hold for 20 minutes while trying to find out where the applications had gone. This would have bankrupted us on the normal phone rates! And finally when the lady got back to me, it was to tell me that the computers were down and that I should send an email instead. I found out that our applications, dispite being sent in the same envelope, had landed on the desks of two different colleagues so we could not deal directly with one person, but two. OK, at least they gave us some names. I sent them an email immediately as they requested. Time to reply: 2 weeks!!

Now for the reasons. I have a UK PPL but I live in Germany. I already got 15 mins of questions at the boarder upon arriving in Australia because I am a British Passport holder with a German address. Is this really so abnormal? Well CASA did not recognise my German medical in combination with my UK (European) PPL. The fact is it is totally legal (I have checked three times now with the CAA just to be sure) but for CASA it was not acceptable.

Armin is German and has both German and US PPLs. He thought, being an English speaking country, he would get the USA PPL recognised / validated by CASA. OK. Except, they did not recognise the "English proficient" part. Now, actually we both hold US PPLs independently of our European ones, and we specifically went to the US two years ago to get the new "English proficient" licenses done. The fact that this is not actually written on the license itself is not our fault! Its just the way they do it in the USA. We got in touch with the FAA who sent us a link to a website explaining that these new licenses do meet the English proficient ICAO requirements to date. It was useless, as we had already found the link and sent it to CASA. The lady at the FAA could not propose any further solution. I guess not many Americans fly in Australia to warrant any solution. CASA did propose that Armin does an exam in Australia, but even if he got that done on the very first day of the holiday, it would have been a nightmare hanging around for CASA to finally process the request. (The security check is done later so we would have had to wait for that to come through as well - and we had no fixed address in Australia, like most people on holiday!). Given the fact they had already taken 2 months to get started and 2 weeks just to reply to a phone call, we were frankly, not optimistic of getting this done in the space of a holiday.

Of course we had to pay for this. The first thing they did was take 150 AUD off our credit cards! That went VERY quickly funnily enough!

Then came the Security thing (which we put together with the COV application). We filled in the lenthy forms, and as per the notes, we got a policeman to sign the documents and the photographs for us. If you check the notes (unless they have updated it on-line) you will see that the policeman does not have to be an Australian unlike the other two categories. No matter. They sent everything back saying, sorry, policeman is not Australian. Great! Where do we find Australian officials here in Munich? They don't even have an embassy or consulate here. However, I am grateful that these guys did not take the 250 AUD required unlike the COV guys. They just sent the lot back and said No.

Time was drawing close to our departure. I had no time to get a medical done in the UK and was beginning to wonder if it was worth the expense of a trip to the UK, and the cost of the medical itself (which I did not really need, at least not in the rest of the western world). I was beginning to wonder if it would be enough, whether they would find another reason not to let us fly. We felt like we were at a dead end, and were busy enough with winding up with work, Christmas and family stuff, and not to mention planning for the trip itself.

Finally, we decided that life (and holidays) are too short to mess about exceptionally, and given that CASA made it so difficult and were causing undue amounts of stress, we gave up. We had a fantastic 7 weeks in your beautiful country, but on the ground!

We would love to come back one day, and fly, but until then, we'll have to make do with Europe and the USA. I really hope that CASA sort themselves out, and more importantly, that you flying schools (who bear the brunt of this innane beauraucracy) survive.

Anyway, thanks for reading this far! And take care,
When CASA had their offices at Jandakot and I assume the other capital city GA airfields, it was an easy process to do a certificate of validation. Their claimed efficiency improvement has turned it into a complete cluster ****.

Regarding the ASIC, it is not as difficult as many believe. Contact Aviation ID Australia or Airport Security (http://www.securityid.com.au/). CASA are a total cock up when it comes to ASICs.
DO NOT - repeat - DO NOT go to CASA for your ASIC

[baron_beeza]

I'm interested in renting a single engine aircraft to fly around Australia with my friend.

Australia is a big place, how many hours do you figure on doing ?

New Zealand has better flying and is much more of an 'aviation friendly' country...

There can so much to be learnt in a country with diverse scenery and dare I say weather patterns..

I know where I enjoy flying best.

[mnehpets]

Thank you guys for the info, I appreciate it. Is there anyone on here that has first hand experience flying in Australia with a FAA license?

Someone posted a blog entry on their experience here:

http://www.planeconversations.com/2010/09/17/flying-in-australia-getting-licensed/

- S

[Clearedtoreenter]

Read this sad tale of someone who tried to come to Australia on a flying holiday.


Can reiterate that story in trying to get a French PPL validated. Next to impossible. The ASIC did prove impossible because they just would not recognise any non-Aussie/EC form of identification and it all just got too late as they took about 4 weeks for each response - AND they still took the money. If they would just respond and say ' Sorry, that's all too hard' or something rather than not respond at all, thus making sure its all too late, it would help. Getting on the 'phone is very frustrating... nobody knows nuffin... Eventually we did get the validation sorted by hassling them that way - but beware, they sent us off on some other wild goose chase, to get more docs that they then lost or claimed they did not receive or said someone else was dealing with it and would be in touch - but were not of course.

Yes, it is a far cry from the old days when foreign PPL's could walk into a field CASA office, show their docs and walk out with a validation - - but I guess we are just soooo much more secure now and saving truck loads of hard earned CASA money too!

How DO they get away with treating people that way?

[Artificial Horizon]

I agree with all of the above, it took me 13 MONTHS to get a certificate of validation completed on my UK ATPL, everytime there was a problem it took over a month for the emails, letters, phone calls to get through. The frustrating part was the amount of times that CASA insisted on something even though their own guides on their website said it wasn't required. English proficiency was one of them, the website guide just said you had to be english proficient whereas the guy I was dealing with said it had to specifically say 'level 6'. So even though I am a New Zealander flying in the UK for a legacy carrier and my licence said English proficient they made me sit an 'english' test :ugh: I pity anyone who has to deal with CASA about anything. :sad:

[baswell]

Do you need a 4 (or more) seater?

I wonder if it is much easier to get your recreational certificate from RA-Aus. This limits you to to LSAs, but something like a Jab 230 will outperform a C172 (so long as you only need 2 seats!) and be much cheaper anyway... (At least $100/hour cheaper.) If you want something more like a Cessna, a high-wing Tecnam will do.

I would not be surprised if with a quick 5 hours, the CFI will sign you off and you are good to go.

The RA-Aus operations manual only mentions "PPL" as previous experience, not "CASA" or "Australian" PPL.

Still leaves the ASIC issue, but you can have a very good time flying in Australia while avoiding airfields where you need one. (Not to mention going into ones where you do anyway because nobody ever checks. Not that I advocate you doing this, of course!)

As a side note, I got my ASIC as a foreigner and only a provisional residency visa with very few questions asked and was returned to me within 10 days by RA-Aus.

So you might well start your tour off without one, to get one sent to you a few weeks in.

[27/09]

If you could find an owner in New Zealand who would let you fly their pride and joy across the Tasman and back (they may even wish to accompany you on the joureny) you could do a flying tour of Australia and have the experience of an oceanic operation/international flight as well.

The big plus is you don't need an ASIC or have to comply with the silly aircraft security device requirements since you are operating a foreign aircraft on a foreign licence.

The New Zealand CAA are very helpful regarding foriegn licence conversions, getting an aircraft to hire for such a trip may not be so easy, though probably easier than meeting the Aussie ASIC and licence requirements by the sounds of it.

[uncle8]

The CASA site says "You need a valid ASIC if you require FREQUENT access to a secure area of a security controlled airport (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/transport/security/aviation/airports.aspx) that has Regular Public Transport (RPT) operations. This is a requirement of the Aviation Security Regulations 2005 (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90108)." My bolding.

I operate with this in mind for my infrequent landings at these airports by arranging for the airport safety officer, the refuelling man or LAME or his representative to escort me. This is quite legitimate as far as I can see.

[YPJT]

The big plus is you don't need an ASIC or have to comply with the silly aircraft security device requirements since you are operating a foreign aircraft on a foreign licence.:=
Not quite correct.

3.05 Crew of foreign and state aircraft etcDespite regulation 3.03, the following people need not display
an ASIC in a secure area:

a) a person who is a member of the crew of a foreign aircraft
(other than a state aircraft) that is engaged in a regular
public transport operation or a charter operation and who:
(i) is in the uniform of the aircraft operator; and
(ii) displays appropriate identification issued or
authorised by the aircraft operator;

(b) a person who is a member of the crew of a state aircraft
(that is, a person who has duties or functions on board
such an aircraft during its flight in connection with the
flying or safety of the aircraft) and who:
(i) is in uniform; and
(ii) displays appropriate identification issued or
authorised by the defence force or service of which
he or she is a member;

(c) a person who:
(i) is a member of a foreign defence force or service;
and
(ii) is undergoing flight training; and
(iii) is in uniform; and
(iv) displays appropriate identification issued or
authorised by the defence force or service of which
he or she is a member; and
(v) is supervised by the holder of an ASIC.

Our friend trying to have a flying holiday clearly does not fall under this exemption.

Granted though, you would probably get away with not having to comply with the aircraft security requirements but what a lot of dicking around just to save having to put a control or wheel lock on.:rolleyes:

Uncle8,
Yes legally you can do it that way if you are fortunate enough to have a LAME, Reporting Officer etc who will escort you.:ok: Bit of a problem with the supervision aspect though once you get in and close the door. Just one of the many cockups with this whole regime.

[lk978]

The hardest part will be finding a FAA rego'd aircraft (N rego) that the owner wants to give to you. I remember seeing a cub around the traps at one stage. very legitimate and if you do let me know as I would be happy to give a tour of my city and would pay to do a BFR if you guys are qualified.

I always love watching the safety morons try and get up the foreign crews on the biz jets. They don't seem to understand not everywhere in the world has ASIC's

[Jack Ranga]

Welcome to Australia :ok: The clever country :ok: Land of red tape :ok:

Perhaps you should fly to Afganistan and buy passage on a cruiseliner to Christmas Island :ok: There'd be a whole lot less red tape on that path :ok:

The shock of that will get you used to our aircraft hire rates, yep, C172 minted in 1973 for only a couple of hundred dollars :ok:

Australia, land of milk and honey :E

[27/09]

YPJT

Not withstand what you have copied from the regs, I have a letter from CASA telling me that in a similar situation, (foreign pilot flying a foreign aircraft), that since I was not a regular user of Australian airports I do not require an ASIC, though some airports may require me to be escorted. I can presume it would apply to anyone in this situation.

Granted though, you would probably get away with not having to comply with the aircraft security requirements but what a lot of dicking around just to save having to put a control or wheel lock onAgreed. My post was more to make the point that from reading of other peoples experiences, my tongue in cheek option, as difficult and impractical it may be in this case, might still be the easiest option.

[YPJT]

27/09, You are quite correct. An ASIC only allows an airport to grant the holder unescorted access airside which leads to a lot of the confusion. My point was that being a crew of and flying a foreign registered aircraft did not automatically exempt you from the ASIC display requirements. Unless as prescribed in sect 3.05 of the regs. In the end, an ASIC is merely a verification that a peson has undergone a background check. It has nothing whatsoever to do with authority to go airside. That still rests with the airport operator.

The risk a person runs of wanting to go airside when they don't have an ASIC is a long and painful delay whilst whoever is responsible, processes a visitor identification card (VIC).

Be very cautious indeed about information given by CASA on ASICs. We had a guy come all the way from the UK to fly and was told that he didn't need an ASIC to fly in Australia. Technically correct but it would have been nice had they told him that he did need one to have unescorted access to security controlled airports. Apparently, this did not create a problem for him and he was able to enjoy his holiday. :ok:

Any chances of significant change or relaxation of the ASIC display requirements are long gone. A review of the secuirty ID system has been undertaken and they are well and truly here to stay.

As for the aircraft security requirements, I found it rather strange that only an Australian aircraft is subject to the anti theft device requirements.

[baswell]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

If the PPL presented by the converting applicant is a PPL from a
'contracting state' (a country CASA recognises as having an equivalent
training standard) then, yes, it can be used as recognition of previous
experience for the conversion to a RA-Aus Pilot Cert. However, they will be
required to pass a Human Factors exam and satisfy their RA-Aus CFI of their
knowledge of our regulations, local procedures, controlled airspace
avoidance etc.

In order to obtain a Cross-Country endorsement they must once again satisfy
their RA-Aus CFI that they are capable and compliant as per section 3.04-24
of the RA-Aus Operations Manual, prior to the issue of the endorsement.

The human factor is a pretty basic exercise in translating jargon into common sense. Easy.

The rest is nothing a competent pilot couldn't do in a day or two of nice weather.

If you are happy flying LSAs, this sounds like the easiest way for a foreigner to fly around Australia.

Unlike CASA, you don't need to wait for paperwork; as soon as the CFI has signed you off and the forms are faxed off to RA-Aus head office, you are good to go.

[TinKicker]

One other point to consider, as well as the discussion on ASIC's, is how would the aircraft and liability insurance hold up?

If you can get an aircraft it may pay you to have a look at the policy to see if it states anything about holding an Australian Licence. The policy might become invalid if it specifically states anything about this and this may become the ultimate show stopper, inspite of all the other hurdles.

Just something to consider....

Tinkicka...........