WTF

[TBM-Legend]

Article from today's newspaper: What the F$%k is going on in Europe's defenses?

It seems they cannot sustain this Libyan side show for more than a couple of weeks without running out of pilots/serviceable aircraft and now ordnance!

I bet the Chinese are shaking in their boots [with laughter]:hmm:




Less than a month into the Libyan conflict, NATO is running short of precision bombs, highlighting the limitations of Britain, France and other European countries in sustaining even a relatively small military action over an extended period of time, according to senior NATO and U.S. officials


The shortage of European munitions, along with the limited number of aircraft available, has raised doubts among some officials about whether the United States can continue to avoid returning to the air campaign if Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi hangs onto power for several more months.

[hanoijane]

It's not just the Chinese who are enjoying this demonstration of western technological might.
:)

[3 bladed beast]

oh come on. What you're saying is nonsense. With all these cuts, we are now FAR more AGILE , ADAPTABLE and CAPABLE..........

We are told this daily and i truly believe it!!! :ok::ok:

Just off to get my copy of AP1 and read about RISE on a saturday morning.....:O

[Melchett01]

Article from today's newspaper: What the F$%k is going on in Europe's defenses?

It seems they cannot sustain this Libyan side show for more than a couple of weeks without running out of pilots/serviceable aircraft and now ordnance!

I bet the Chinese are shaking in their boots [with laughter]


At the risk of being controversial - good! Frankly, this is the sort of failure we need in order to hopefully make the politicians realise that if you want to play with the big boys you need to resource your military accordingly.

When Libya kicked off and Cameron and Sarkozy had to all but drag the US kicking and screaming into this venture, I did wonder whether Obama was taking an more insular approach and in doing so, almost renaging on the notion of being 'leader of the free world'. Frankly, as time goes by, it is becoming quite clear that the US is actually putting NATO and European nations to the test. By limiting US involvement, Obama is proving the point that whilst talking a good game, we can just about make it to half time before having to take a breather. For once the US political system could actually be doing us a favour.

[TBM-Legend]

M01: I think you're right. Europe feels free to criticise the US when it likes but with 300M people and claiming the moral high ground since GW2 I think it is a case of stand up and be counted. The problem is that the political will in this case [if there is one across the board in Europe] cannot be matched by action - no operational kit and crews to speak of.

I think the US should sit it out.

[seafuryfan]

I fully agree with TMB and M01. It's about time the European politicians actually had a go at being responsible for mounting and sustaining an op on their own.

[Pontius Navigator]

In the 70s we had weapon/target matching. X had Y submarines. The PK of a torpedo was k. It was simple to work out how many torpedoes needed to be carried by how many MPA to achieve a desired PK.

Similarly with AD assets - number of interceptors, number of ship sets of missiles etc etc.

With no specific or identified numerical threat it follows that weapons provision is a simple flying guess. AFAIK the Tornado had a limited number of JP223 based on the number of weapons required on target in the CR and the expect attrition of aircraft. In GW1 the attrition and expenditure did not match the CR assumptions so we just about ran out.

It must be exactly the same with PMs. There is practically a steady state in AFG therefore the consumption is known and low compared to Libya where is is higher and the supply chaon has insufficient time to restock.

So, square one, back to RAB and the cost of acquistion and holding.

[minigundiplomat]

Sooner or later, the cuts were always going to bite too deep and we were going to fall on our faces. It is, unfortunately, a fact of life before the bean counters learn the value, and not just the cost, of maintaining an effective military force.

I'd rather we lost face in a campaign such as this one, rather than losing lives in another campaign.

[A A Gruntpuddock]

"I'd rather we lost face in a campaign such as this one, rather than losing lives in another campaign."

That was probably said after Isandlwana and we're still saying it. Never mind, 'lessons will be learned' so that's OK.

[racedo]

The repeating of history from collapse of the financial systems, a paring down of defence, invasion and insecurity in Africa remind me of something in history from the last 20 and 30's ..................nah history doesn't repeat itself.

[AdLib]

... but it does rhyme.

Or,

There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know.

PN - I believe that the introduction of RAB is the reason we're in the location* we are now.

*up the proverbial creek with no propulsive capability

[TBM-Legend]

the quality of the over educated idiots who now run our institutions begins to show big time. So called "old fashioned" values are gone.

The lunatic asylum is now being run by the inmates!:ugh:

[Now we have Nook-lar secrets leaked as well...]

[MuttsNuts]

This is pretty much a nonsense story, i'm surprised no-one has picked up on it yet.

Lepoint pretty much trashed this article as nothing more than a 'buy more american weapons' sales pitch
Google Translate (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lepoint.fr%2Fchroniqueurs-du-point%2Fjean-guisnel%2Fles-etranges-affirmations-du-washington-post-sur-la-guerre-en-libye-16-04-2011-1320078_53.php)

As it concludes
The Washington Post article considers, without writing explicitly, that the Europeans would do well to buy more weapons to the United States if they want to make war in earnest. Nothing new ... Current French stocks : SCALP-EG : 500, used 12, AASM : 2,300 (ordered 4,148) , Paveway II : 1,000+
Britain has over 850 Stormshadow cruise missiles, and i'd suggest an equal number of Paveway & Brimstone missiles.

Nothing more than a US STRONG!!!! Euros Wussies piece.

[Farm-for-sale]

Yep, 850 Shormshadows... About as useful as tactical nukes in a CAS fight. And you honestly believe we have that many PGMs just sitting around? I need some quality time in that world!

[TEEEJ]

Farm-for-sale,

I fail to see your reasoning in reference to Storm Shadow? It it designed to be employed against hardened targets. Used in Libya to take out command and control and hardened ammunition storage. Of course it is not going to be employed in a close air support scenario, but stockpiles are still required to be fielded to meet national and NATO commitments.

Do you believe that the Paveway kit or Brimstone contracts are not sufficient to enable the UK to maintain stockpiles and meet requirements?

NATO Denies Reported Bomb Shortage in Libya

NATO Denies Reported Bomb Shortage in Libya - Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6295569&c=AME&s=LAN)

TJ