Flying pay on PVR?

[Papa Victor Romeo]

There's a rumour doing the rounds at work that if you PVR you lose ALL your flying pay.

However, I can find no evidence for this in AFPRB 2011.

It still states on page 76 (Appendix 2):

Personnel who submit an application to PVR will be placed on the 50% rate....

As this is a rumour network I thought I'd ask in here. Maybe someone knows the truth. Is this just a viscous rumour?

[Background Noise]

Changes wef 1 Apr 12. Complete loss of specialist pay on PVR. If you have already PVR'd, before that date, the 50% drops to zero on that date.

[lj101]

SDSR - Changes Of Allowances Summary - UK's #1 Community: Navy, Marines, Army, RAF (http://www.hmforces.co.uk/news/articles/5433-sdsr---changes-of-allowances-summary)

Link as above

From Apr 2012 - On PVR, specialist pay reduced from 50% to 0

[Papa Victor Romeo]

Copied all. Thanks for the fast reply peeps.

[Just This Once...]

Ahh yes, another own goal when trying to attract an individual through their option point. Leave at an option and keep all the money. Persuaded to stay in longer and PVR at a later date equals quite a savage financial penalty when you do make the move to civilian life (oh and pension and gratuity abatement too).

Guess the FRIs will have an even bigger chasm to paper over in the future.

The post-38/16 point brigade used to be exempt from this nonsense. Only the PA Spine chaps have any level of protection now.

What a mess which will cost the taxpayer more in the long-run.

[MFC_Fly]

Of course there is always another way to get out quite quickly without getting a pay cut before you go :ooh:

[Winchweight]

If you PVR and they take away your flying pay, stop flying. :E

[Uncle Ginsters]

Am i the only one who doesn't see an issue with this revised policy? Spec Pay is there to go some way to providing specialists with equivalent total pay as a retention measure.

If you've PVRd, then your loyalty is lost and that retention has clearly failed - no amount of Spec Pay can change that.

Now, allowances cuts to those still dutifully giving their lives to the Service...that's a very different story:ugh::mad::ugh:

[Union Jack]

Is this just a viscous rumour?

Well, it's certainly a "sticky" situation for some ....:rolleyes:

Jack

[Really annoyed]

If you've PVRd, then your loyalty is lost and that retention has clearly failed

May as well take your HTD off of you then as you clearly don't want to come to work. No amount no matter how small can change that.:hmm:

[Yozzer]

you then as you clearly don't want to come to work

Hes not alone there; and as for LOYALTY :mad::mad::mad:

It is time that 'Loyalty' was replaced with "Allegiance" in military circles for although loyalty does not have to be a two way affair, to expect the same is not unresonable.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

When a proper Officer PVRs (and it was 3 years notice in my day), loyalty is not lost, workrate and daily commitment are not lost. The only thing lost is long term commitment. I still got recommended for promotion during my PVR. The idea that one 'stops working' between PVRing and leaving is insulting.
This kind of short-sighted petty penalisation of PVRers will cause a lot of damage in the long term, as many ppruners have said.

[Willard Whyte]

It'll be interesting to see how much work gets done in the 12 months between 'selection' and exit date by those who's names are plucked from CAS's hat on August 31st.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

You have a point - not sure I'd be inclined to put a lot of effort in under those circumstances. Indeed, the current situation was foretold in my reasons for PVRing - told you so.
I suggest a lot of adventurous training requests!

[Uncle Ginsters]

May as well take your HTD off of you then as you clearly don't want to come to work. No amount no matter how small can change that.

Err, no. There's a big difference, IMNSHO, between remunerative allowances such as HTD and retention bonuses such as Spec Pay. Simples.:E

As i said, that doesn't make cuts to HTD and others right, just very different to Spec Pay.

[Really annoyed]

So, what you are saying is that anybody in receipt of SP which includes Aircrew of all three services, EOD people, Submariners, Divers, GE's, Movers, AEROMEDS etc should loose this pay as a punishment because they decide that actually they have had enough of being pissed around?

Spoken like a true blunty REMF.

[Uncle Ginsters]

As you say...the Spec Pay has clearly failed in its job of remunerating specialists to keep them in the Services if they PVR. Everyone has their own limit of being pi$$ed around...some choose to leave earlier than others, that's just life old chap!

Don't confuse your terms either - Fg Pay, EOD Pay, Submariners Pay are Spec Pay. GEs, Movers and AeroMeds are not technically the same, they get Crew Pay for their roles.

Anyone considering PVR has to consider that loss now...and it's a fairly big one, so unwittingly (probably) enhancing the idea of that pay in the first case!

As a blunty REMF (your terms), you'll be just fine though ;)

[Really annoyed]

Don't confuse your terms either - Fg Pay, EOD Pay, Submariners Pay are Spec Pay. GEs, Movers and AeroMeds are not technically the same, they get Crew Pay for their roles.

I'm sorry that I have confused the two. I bow to your vast experience in these matters. Oh hang on, forget that because the last time I looked at the AFPRB report for this year, about 10 seconds ago, Crew pay and AEROMED pay came under the Specialist Pay heading. So I think it is you who is confusing the two.:ugh:

[Uncle Ginsters]

Well, what can i say, you're right (but don't get used to it:D) - just noticed that in the report too...SP(AD) and JHSUSC is has been broadened to 'Crew Pay' which should then include GEs etc. Apologies for spouting Spitfire Ale-fuelled bolleaux.

The original point stands, however - why pay someone a retention sum once they've decided to push the button and hence declare themselves a lost cause (purely in retention terms, of course!) ?

On that last slurp of the last bottle...:zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

[Really annoyed]

Flying pay is for a specialist skill.

No it isn't.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

SP is a non-pensionable payment, over and above the basic military salary, paid to certain groups in response to specific recruitment or retention factors. It is not a reward for particular skills or compensation for risk but a payment to encourage personnel to join, or remain in, certain trades.

[Uncle Ginsters]

I hope you'll realise that you're posting like a tool in the morning.
In that i posted a non-truth about Crew Pay - yes, as mentioned above.

Flying pay is for a specialist skill
RA quotes the AFPRB report exactly above - no it isn't.

If you PVR you still have to do it- there's no protection from crappy dets/bad trips/pulling your weight
Yes you do, but your non-SP branches face that dilemma without the additional pay. That's what the X-factor is for, which you're still getting after you PVR.

I'm sorry, but in the current climate, I don't see how you can justify giving out a payment that simply cannot achieve its aim (if you've PVR'd). It's not good to lose around 1/3 of your take-home - maybe the 0% on PVR change will have greater effect on that PVR decision? It could be seen as a highly cynical measure by HMG, but I know of several that are now planning on staying to their natural exit points who may have otherwise hit the button - i may even be one of them:bored: !

RA - you quote the report definitions, do you see what i'm getting at yet?

[Biggus]

Is flying pay a retention tool, or a retention and recruitment tool? If there is an element of recruitment then surely, using Uncle G's arguement, we can reduce flying pay as soon as people have completed flying training (which I believe these days is actually when we start paying it), on the basis that you have already been recruited, therefore that element of flying pay is "no longer achieving its aim"...


Secondly, what is the PVR time for aircrew these days, is it down to 6 months like everyone else? If so, given resettlement, terminal leave, etc, you can be in a new job, being paid, inside 3-4 months. While the loss of flying pay for 3-4 months is not inconsiderable, if you really want to go, and have something planned for outside, to me the loss of flying pay will simply confirm what a mean spirited organization you actually work for.


Finally, I very much doubt that any of the "names out of CAS hat" will lose any flying pay. They have not PVR'ed, rather they are being made redundant, against their will for some of them.....

[Just This Once...]

All pay, in all its forms, is to 'attract and retain' and SP is there to address an additional need to 'attract and retain' above and beyond basic pay.

So why only target SP on PVR? Why not apply the same logic to all personnel if reducing pay on PVR makes so much sense?

We would save a bunch of cash if every doc or dentist who left outside of an option point retired on an abated standard flt lt, sqn ldr or wg cdr pay scale.

I would suggest we would cost a fortune in the long run to attract and retain such personnel in the future if we continue to behave in this way. People are always going to point at the absurdity of it all when two 43 year old sqn ldrs from the same sqn/office/det PVR. One looses all his SP and the other stays on PA Spine in receipt of all his pay - does this not sound strange?

[Uncle Ginsters]

Biggus, I see what you're saying but you can't really, can you?

If you reduced Spec Pay the instant you awarded it then no-one would ever get the full whack, in which case they would have been recruited on a bare-faced lie, a ruse!

The SP's done its job once recruited, and continues to do so until PVR, at which point no amount of 'recruit and retain' pay can make a difference. I think the two (recruit & retain) are surely intrinsically linked.

As for cutting all pay - if it wouldn't create a management nightmare, which it would, i'm sure the powers that be would love to let all PVRs go instantly. Then they would stop all pay as they'd be out :ok:

[dash2]

Uncle Ginsters,

I think Biggis may be highlighting the flaw in the reasoning behind cutting sp.

Regards,

Dash2

[Yozzer]

Allowing an individual to leave immediately on PVR has the advantage of avoiding the infectous growth of discontent that is invariably accompanied with the individual that has pressed the 7 JPA clicks. Thus everbody left behind is 'happy' until they too decide to reach down and pull. I wish I could get place a bet on staff shortages within 3 years because I would have a better chance at winning then I did on the National.

[Biggus]

dash2


..................................... :ok::ok::ok:

[Really annoyed]

Thus everbody left behind is 'happy' until they too decide to reach down and pull.

You mean push. You need to push the buttons on the keyboard to get JPA to work, not pull.

[Uncle Ginsters]

RA - i think Yozzer is alluding(not eluding) to pulling the big Black'n'yellow.

Dash2 - many thanks for the insight...that's what i read it as too:bored: But, as i said, i don't think it is the flaw you suggest as 'recruit' and 'retain' are intrinsically linked, IMO.

If PVR numbers did increase, then i think, as Yozzer says, the toxic element may provide a difficult challenge for local leaders. Without caution, the whole think could snowball. Of course, the same individuals could also continue to serve with the pride that they have thus far and cause no issues whatsoever as they now have an end in sight...who knows?:confused:

[MrBernoulli]

i think Yozzer is eluding to pulling the big Black'n'yellow.
elude - to escape or evade
allude - to refer to indirectly

So, is he evading, or being indirect? :ok:

[dash2]

Uncle Ginsters,

Fair enough, I misunderstood your post.

From my point of view all of the wrangling over definitions misses the main point. SP is purely there because it's a cheap way for the government to vary pay from 1 specialisation to another without having to pay a pension based on the total pay package.

All pay is for recruitment and retention, the wording is just window dressing. Do we really think that there is a 'grand plan' where the effects of this cut to flying pay on pvr have been assessed or has some bright spark just thought 'this'll save some money'.

Cheers,

Dash 2