RFDS and the PC-12....

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re The RFDS.....

I guess this means that the PC-12 is the 'new' standard for RFDS ops....

From the AvWeb site,
"
PILATUS HAS BEST YEAR EVER
There are exceptions to every rule and while most of the aviation industry endured a brutal year in 2010, Swiss-based Pilatus says it had its best year ever. The company said revenues and profits were up by 11 percent over the previous year ($730 million and $98 million respectively) and it took $400 million in new orders. It also delivered its 1,000th PC-12; the year's deliveries included repeat orders from early customers like Australia's Royal Flying Doctor Service, which took its 33rd PC-12, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which added three PC-12s to its fleet. The new deliveries are all the NG model with Honeywell glass panels and other improvements. More...

33 PC -12's.....That's not a bad fleet 'all over'.....I guess that means that 'youse guys and gals' have got used to the 'single engine' concept....

Cheers:ok::ok:

[Howard Hughes]

I guess that means that 'youse guys and gals' have got used to the 'single engine' concept....
Hardly...:E

B-350 will be the 'new' standard for RFDS ops starting next year!:ok:

[Desert Flower]

B-350 will be the 'new' standard for RFDS ops starting next year!

Have to wonder why the Broken Hill section of the RFDS opted to upgrade to BE-350's instead of getting the PC-12's.

DF.

[illusion]

Have an uninvited gearbox failure in a PC12 over the Blue Mountains at 2am in the morning and you will probably work it out for yourself.:ugh:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/808954/ao2010006_prelim.pdf

Thankfully, the Johnny Howard inspired drive for the bottom line does know an end - hopefully before a crew in wiped out.

[glekichi]

Adelaide to Melbourne, Hobart, and, from memory, Sydney also, do not take the aircraft outside of gliding range of a lit emergency airfield.
It's a pleasure to fly, especially the NG.

Could definitely do with a landing weight upgrade though.

As I said in another thread, it has less than half (through improvements to design) the chance of an engine failure of a Kingair. Thats less than half the chance of some kind of unfeatherable failure or fire.

In the real remote areas at night is the only time a Kingair would really appeal, although FLIR may well just change that part of the equation too.

[Howard Hughes]

Adelaide to Melbourne, Hobart, and, from memory, Sydney also, do not take the aircraft outside of gliding range of a lit emergency airfield.

Not much use if the airlfields are unusable due to fog!;)

[Wally Mk2]

..............oh goody my fav subject, just when I thought the Mods where getting to me:E

S.E. Section ALWAYS use multi airframes, not all of the RFDS sections are stupid/dangerous !Fortunately contractual req's makes sense sometimes.

I love it when some say within gliding range etc.............sure they would be most of the time at ALT but what about down in the circuit area or during a non prec App. Yr outbound on an NDB, 30 kt tail wind, it's night, raining cats & dogs with cloud expected to be on or about the min. & yr 'fan' goes quiet, prop seized not feathered?............what you have is a couple of "pre made patients" right there within the airframe & ya don't even have to land at the strip to pick up the arranged ones!!!:ugh:

Sure ya have twice the chance of a donk failure in the old Beech (& getting killed due poor handling but that's a humans fault ) but at least ya have a choice/options if that does happen, no choice but DOWN in the PC !:E

It's about economy, pure & simple. Ya can't beat the PC for that no argument there!

So how's it going there 'HH"? Looking fwd to the big Beech? Would have loved to have a drive of one but a stupid Govt decision put paid to that!


Wmk2 ................always believed safety in numbers.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I just KNEW that would GETCHA 'Wal'......

Welcome back!!!

Cheers:ok::ok: :}

(Hook...line....and...)

[tail wheel]

HH. With the B350 MTOW > 5,700 kg (6,804 kg?) are two pilots required and will it be restricted from many of the bush strips currently serviced by the B200?

Wally. "The PC-12 had, by the end of 2007, only three previous fatal accidents in the US/Canada combined fleet of 556 aircraft after an estimated total of 1.39 million flight hours. One was a training error, while another was engaged in a round-the-world attempt. The only one in normal service occurred on March 26, 2005 in Pennsylvania, where six people on board perished when the plane crashed after experiencing a loss of control during the landing approach."

Pilatus claim 1,000 + PC-12 deliveries by June 2010.

I can not find one PC-12 accident which is the result of premature engine failure.

[Nil defects]

What about the RFDS PC12 out of Derby a year ago? Engine failure after take off, at night, Young lady managed to glide it back I think.

Well done to her but could have been a different outcome if happened a few minutes later or an hour later over the rugged Kimberly terrain.

Here is the link:
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/403885-pc12-glide-approach.html

[tmpffisch]

What about the RFDS PC12 out of Derby a year ago? Engine failure after take off, at night, Young lady landed straight ahead into the scrub, betwen the Boab trees and everyone got out without a serious injury.If I remember correctly, was flying from Derby to Kunners, was about 30nm out and returned safely back to Derby. Great outcome, outlining the strong capabilities of the PC12;.......and while I don't have any strong concerns about C208 or PC12 ASEPTA ops, the RFDS probably should still be using Kingairs if flying at night.

[tail wheel]

"...PC-12 accident which is the result of premature engine failure."

I looked up accidents only, not incidents.

"...the RFDS probably should still be using Kingairs if flying at night."

No argument with that. And two pilot operations if the Mt Gambier RFDS accident in December 2001 is any guide.

[Howard Hughes]

HH. With the B350 MTOW > 5,700 kg (6,804 kg?) are two pilots required and will it be restricted from many of the bush strips currently serviced by the B200?
Hi Taily, B350 is certified for single pilot operations and will be operated as such, I do live in hope that two crew will become common place in aeromedical ops (in this country) sometime before I retire.

B350 will be excluded from some airports, but not a significant number, B200 will still be available for those operations!:ok:
So how's it going there 'HH"? Looking fwd to the big Beech?
Hi Wally, very much so, I've even seen them up close, but nobody will let me touch one yet!:{

PS: With regard to the higher probability of having an engine failure in a twin, I think am willing to manage that risk...;)

[Wally Mk2]

I know you where 'fishing' there 'Griffo' but with bait like that how could I not go for a bite:E

'taily' oh I understand that the PC well more the PT-6 actually (the airframe is irrelevant really)is very reliable but the whole reason for 2 donks is safety nothing else. The PC is a prime Eg of the fact that you don't need 2 donks to haul around an airframe the size of the old Beech.

Back in the old days when Piper where putting 2gether a 10 seat job (PA31) am sure the main reason for putting two 350 HP donks on the airframe was because they needed twin redundancy, back to that word safety due regs etc. 700 hp would have been achievable with just one large radial thumper up front(using piston donks that is, ugly comes to mind!) but that was never gunna happen. That's all changed these days due the reliability of turbine engines (HP /weight is excellent) but the same underlying reason is still there, safety, whether it's achievable using one or two engines is purely how the risk is mitigated.
It's at the end of the day all about choice & risk. You can have either (2 versus 1) to do the same task/job.

As for two pilot Ops in Aero Med work? Sure that would make it safer again. Two engines, two pilots can't beat that but that concept but it's ALL about cost on that score.

I know which airframe I'd rather be in when an engine goes quiet, no contest there for me:ok:

Wmk2

[Jabawocky]

Just to throw some fodder into the ring.......:E

When you have a double flame out...don't say it can't, which would you rather have?

How many EFATO's have speared in due not handling assymetric thrust in King Air's?

Given the PC12's crash survival engineering, which would you rather have, a single engine out and a easily controlled ditching (yes some terrain will be worse than others but think Charleville) Vs a mishandled B200.

I think the risks are different, and the risk comparisons almost impossible to compare. I actually think the risk overall is pretty close to minimum and equal, just spread in different areas.

Have fun and play nice :ok:

[Wally Mk2]

Hey 'jaba' who's side ya on buddy?:ok:

Spearin' in due poor handling in a twin is one thing, that can be controlled with good training. I did over 4500 hrs on the old Beech alone & many Sim sessions where we did some ugly things at rotate & we still flew away on one donk, again training & discipline there.
Having an engine up front ahead of you is not good for yr health upon impact so SE planes are dangerous just for that alone:-)
I recall going to collect a drunk driver who slammed into a tree after he fell asleep. The Dr said if it where not for the engine coming to join him in the front seat he might have survived (brain dead sadly, body donation candidate)
Double flame out? sheeeeez Jaba what about a piece of space junk falling on ya head just as ya walked outside the hanger?.........now ya really havin' a bad day:E
And as for the PC's survival ability? Yeah sure the seats are rated at 24 g's I believe...........are you?:E

Now get back to work there 'jaba' & stop goofing off:ok:


Wmk2

[glekichi]

Will it still climb away if the failed engine won't feather for some reason Wally? Genuine question.

[Jamair]

Just for interest. When I did my B200 endo (at CKN in mid-summer) the training pilot briefed the first assy session thus:

'When we take off, I will introduce a practice engine failure. I want you to do nothing except fly the aeroplane following the FD. Do not attempt to identify, verify, feather or apply rudder."

So we took off, and through about 500AGL he said 'Simulated engine failure' and pulled the power on the left engine.

I did nothing except follow the FD.

The rudder boost kicked it straight and the live engine climbed it out at about 800fpm without ANY further input from me. (This was a 3-blade; the 4-blade needs autofeather to do the same thing. U/S autofeather on a 4-blade is a no-go item)

This demonstrated pretty clearly to me that a B200 is quite hard to crash as a result of Engine Failure After TO.

[compressor stall]

This demonstrated pretty clearly to me that a B200 is quite hard to crash as a result of Engine Failure After TO.

With respect Jamair, that shows a lack of understanding of how the aircraft was certified in the first place. It might be hard for you to crash from 500', but equally well, down lower it could be in a situation of wanting to crash and there ain't nought you can do...

The B200 is not a transport category aircraft. It can legally put you in a position where it can have an engine failure at a point that it cannot fly, but it's going to go through the fence rather fast.

Jaba's comment I actually think the risk overall is pretty close to minimum and equal, just spread in different areas.

is the most sensible thing I have heard in this debate :ok::ok: which incidentally seems to bring out the same old dusty broken records onto the gramophone each time.

Regards

CS - Who used to happily fly either the PC12 or B200 - whatever was in the hangar at the time.

[aileron_69]

Here's another angle for you. Say the RFDS replace all their PC12s with Kingairs in the interest of safety because the PC12 has a slightly higher risk of engine failure. However due to the increased cost they have to run fewer aircraft to do the same work as the PC12 could do for the same $$ available to them. Now lets say someone is in a life threatening condition somewhere and needs to be urgently airlifted out, but because there just arent the number of aircraft available, said person dies as a result of not getting the care they need in time. Where is the safety in that? Now I know what some of you are going to say, what if they get picked up in a PC12 and the engine quite and they die anyway killing the whole crew? Good point, but the chances of this happening are considerably less than the risk of not having enough aircraft. Its a risky business, and there has to be a balance of risk against cost. You need to get the maximum number of aircraft out there with the $$ you have available. Cost, Speed, and reliability are all issues. As much as we all dont like it, $$ talk, there is risk in everything and there is never going to be a perfect solution.

[Jamair]

I was simply illustrating a point, not getting into the endless debate about certification standards blah blah blah.:rolleyes:

FWIW, the thing flys off at 95 and has a VXSE of 115 (or a F1 VXSE of 105), the intervening 10 or 20kt takes about 3 nonoseconds to achieve, so in practical terms if it gets off the ground it will fly. Yep, you could have an engine or systems failure at below flying speed but above stopping speed, but on a typical 1000m rwy you CAN slow enough to make a reasonably soft arrival at the far end of the rwy. That is why you brief the takeoff and choose your course of action before applying the power.

I still fly both PC12 and B200 from time to time, and both have strengths & weaknesses. They also have (surprisingly) similar running costs, so that issue really is not an issue at all.

[Wally Mk2]

'A69" that's a loooooooooong bow yr drawing there but I hear you. Some of the RFDS work is contractual so it matters none what airframe type is used there's still x amount of airframes allowed in that contract for the bucks avail. Everything is predicated on 4 airframes.Tech Crew, maint, general staff & of course the resource which is often not enough, the Ambo's. Having 5 PC airframes as they would cost the same as 4 B200's (which I doubt very much) wouldn't mean all where avail at any one time.

I know the Vic contract never allowed for SE planes when it finally was drafted up, one reason early in the peace was that the Ambo's union I believe wouldn't allow their members to fly in SE planes, fair call I reckon:-)
Remember in Vic AAV use ambo's (an extension of the road guys/gals) where as I think all other places use employed RFDS staff,medical wise.

'C Stally' yep the old broken record has been dragged out again :Eas it's bin a little while since we had this debate & I thought I might not be able to 'spin-up' the old song but like the sound of a "twin" I'm on song:E:ok:

Again at the end of the day as I have said a zillion times b4 it's about choice, I simply wouldn't fly in a SE plane at night in IMC, I value my own life just a tad more than those who do take that risk:-)
10 yrs for me & EVERY time I took off I thought ....ahhhhhhh there's nothing sweeter than a twin engined machine out of sync:E

I hope we only ever go back & forth here using just words about 'what if ' & not "I told ya so"!

Wmk2

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

That's why I liked the good old Heron!

Nothing like the thought of number cruncher sitting in his ergonomic chair, at his nice ergonomic work station in his air conditioned office running the eye over operating costs of a twin engine verses a single engine aeroplane, thinking about the bottom line and how it could add dollars to his performance bonus!!

[Jabawocky]

is the most sensible thing I have heard in this debate :ok::ok:

Thanks Stallie :8 Don't expect it all the time though!

Hey Wally....ya wanna look in my logbook under NIGHT and IF for the last few months :eek:.

Yeah yeah....I do keep it to a limit as best I can.

J;)

Back to PC12vB200:oh:

[Harry Cooper]

The B200 is not a transport category aircraft.Actually all new RFDS 200's meet the FAR Part 25 Transport Category performance requirements. With the Increased Gross Weight out to 13,500lb MTOW it appears CASA may class the aircraft as such.

[Arnold E]

Ok, so let's all put our fingers up and count together, now, how many crashes involving B200 aircraft in the RFDS, and how many involving the PC-12.
!) B200 ..... er 1 that I know of
2) PC-12 ... er how many was that again??

[Jabawocky]

While that may be true, it proves very little.

I refer you back to my earlier post that won the Stallie vote of approval.

[Arnold E]

While that may be true, it proves very little.It proves to me that a PC-X11 is no more unsafe than a B200, despite having half the number of engines.

PS or are you saying a Drover was safer that a King Air coz it had more engines?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey Arnold,

That takes me back to the story of the guy who gets a look 'up front' in a
'Super Connie' whilst mid - Atlantic, and for 'something to say' - says to the skipper,
"What do you consider is the adequate number of engines to have for these long distance over ocean flights"?

The skipper very 'knowingly' replies,
"When my Number 1 here taps me on the shoulder and says, 'Skip. Number 16 is running a bit 'hot'.!

And I reply, "Oh!.... Which side..??"

I really is with ya Wal, - just found this article 'interesting'....

Cheers:ok::ok:

[Howard Hughes]

You can never have too many engines...:E

http://www.2blowhards.com/Dornier%20Do%20X.jpg

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

TKS 'HH'...........

My point.... Exactly.....:ok::ok:

And...Didn't they do oil changes' 'on-the-run'..??

I can just imagine that on a cold and dark night with CB's all around.......

:=:eek:

[Desert Duck]

"Would you buy a watch, Made in Witchita?"

[Howard Hughes]

Yes, because it has 'dual time' function!:ok:

[Jabawocky]

Arnold you are easily led astray because the prang you alluded to had two perfectly operating engines up until the moment they hit the ground.

You can only compare failure vs failure stats. Any other type is irrelevant.

[aileron_69]

I still fly both PC12 and B200 from time to time, and both have strengths & weaknesses. They also have (surprisingly) similar running costs, so that issue really is not an issue at all.

Im surprised that they are so similar to run. I thought there would be a significant difference.

Jamair, do you have any rough numbers for each aircraft with regards to:
New a/c purchase price:
Engine replacement/overhaul price per engine:
Propeller TBO and replacement/overhaul Price.
Average hours/cost per 100hrly inspection:
Fuel Burn at cruise speed:

I'd have thought with the replacement cost of 2 engines, even if they are slightly smaller and thus cheaper than the larger PC12 Engine it would make quite an impact on the running costs. Coupled with the added hours required to do an inspection on a second engine and more complex fuel system it would make 100hrlys somewhat more costly and time consuming. Time is money afterall, especially when its costing around $100 an hour for a LAME these days. Less time on the ground = more productive flying. I personally have flown neither aircraft but pilots who have tell me the Kingair is about 10% faster roughly, obviously bringing its price-per-mile cost back slightly.

It just seems to me that surely there must have been more than just a slight difference between running costs of each aircraft for the RFDS to switch so many of its fleet to the PC12.

[Propstop]

especially when its costing around $100 an hour for a LAME these days.

Hey Aileron 69, where do I get that job..... I have a lot of experience on those aircraft;););)

[tail wheel]

HH. What is the SE rate of climb for that thing? :}

PC12:

Max cruise speed: 280 ktas (322 mph) 519 km/hr TAS

Max range (3 Pax, 30,000 ft, NBAA IFR reserve) 1,560 nm / 1,795 sm 2,889 km

Max operating altitude 30,000 ft 9,144 m

Takeoff distance over 50 ft obstacle 2,650 ft 808 m

Rate of climb (MTOW) 1,920 ft / min 585 m / min

B200:

Max cruise speed: 289 ktas

Max range 1887 nm

Rate of climb (MTOW) 2,450 ft / min

The PC12 has a better SE rate of climb than the B200. :E

[Towering Q]

I know the Vic contract never allowed for SE planes when it finally was drafted up, one reason early in the peace was that the Ambo's union I believe wouldn't allow their members to fly in SE planes, fair call I reckon

I wonder how the Ambo's Union came to that decision....too many beers around the BBQ with Wally?:E

[rcoight]

Here we go again...

The PC-12 has now been operated in Aus for more than 15 years, the fleet is of a very respectable size, and it flies a very large number of hours each year.
If the afore-mentioned incident in WA is the worst thing that has happened in that time, that's a pretty good record.
(An incident that would certainly get your attention, but hardly the stuff of nightmares)

Now, how many King Air accidents have there been in the same time frame (15 years+)?

:ugh:

Oh, and the ambo's in SA (SAAS) routinely fly in RFDS PC-12's. I guess they're not as soft as their VIC counterparts (or perhaps not as poorly informed?)

[Al Fentanyl]

Vic Ambulance is quite well informed, thanks.

These circular arguments are pointless; different folk have different opinions and that is fine. Those firmly in one camp or t'other are unlikely to be swayed.

FWIW, there have been some B200 engine failures in the past several years, none of which made headlines because the crew used the other engine to fly to a suitable destination and land without incident. That option does not exist for SE aircraft. At best, they can hope to glide to a survivable arrival.

Apart from the well-know WA PC12 incident, there have been at least two others - an engine failure at TO at DN (PC12), a chip detect and turnback in SA which was found to be a shagged engine (PC12), and four C208 engine failures with successful outcomes in very lucky circumstances.

Its all good until the luck runs out. As Wally said: I hope we only ever go back & forth here using just words about 'what if ' & not "I told ya so"!

[Howard Hughes]

B200:

Max cruise speed: 289 ktas

Max range 1887 nm

Rate of climb (MTOW) 2,450 ft / min


Tell him he's dreamin!;)

I don't think even a brand spanker is capable of those figures...:{

[Wally Mk2]

Hey"Taily" ya 4got to mention the ROC in the PC with an engine failure seeing as we are quoting clb rates:E


Wmk2

[tail wheel]

HH. That was just a "grab" from the internet, probably sales figures? My recollection of the B200 was around 245 kts TAS and I think the PC12 may be a bees whisker faster? But the two aircraft are reasonably comparable.

The RFDS has limited financial resouces and if they are to continue providing the excellent service they do to Aussie rural communities, they must consider all possible capital and operating cost savings.

Wally, I know you don't like SE turbine aircraft, but the PC12 was designed to fill a market and operating gap and it does that exceedingly well. Indeed, Pilatus have an enviable record in building safe, successful SE turbine aircraft, particularly the PC6, PC9 and PC12.

[Jabawocky]

Agreed Taily......and I would love one of each of them! :)

Hey its raining again out there, you might need a different Pilatus....on floaties!

http://www.pc-6.com/history/540-hbfal1.jpg

3_ZLbF45O_E

[Harry Cooper]

At FL260 the other night, running book settings, I got 282 KTAS out of a fairly new B200. About 3 knots off book figure of 285 KTAS. At FL220 you could expect around 287KTAS roughly I suppose with a book figure of 290 KTAS. At those power settings range would be around 1350 nm with basic reserves. Initial rate of climb is easily around the 2,500 ft/min mark.

[FGD135]

I got 282 KTAS out of a fairly new B200 ...

Interesting Harry, but just sounds a bit too fast for a King Air!

I am curious.

Were the "book figures" for "maximum cruise"? If so, what ITT (relative to the red line) do they result in?

Also, where did you get your TAS figure from? From an ADC, or calculated yourself via the prayer wheel?

If via the prayer wheel, were you using the IAS to CAS correction from the flight manual? And, could you have been using indicated OAT instead of true OAT in your calculation?

If via an ADC, then I will have another bunch of questions about the indications it gives (related to the accuracy of all the measurements it makes in order to arrive at a TAS figure).

Edited to add: What wind indications were you getting? Was it indicating a thumping head wind by any chance? Or, was the indicated wind roughly in agreement with the forecast? If the latter, then the ADC measurements and calculations would all have been pretty good.

[compressor stall]

The other side that noone mentions.

I've flown the (pre NG) PC12 on a dark and stormy night from Kalgoorlie to Jamieson (out past Warburton) pick up patient, on to Laverton for another and back to KG still with reserves plus one hour's holding.

Not a snowball's chance in hell of doing that in the aeromed B200 (despite the aforementioned fantasy figures) - you'd have to land at YWBR for fuel on the way back. And you'd have to land there...

I was happier to have the range over the extra donk.

It's a few years ago now, but IIRC - old -200s with -41s were about the same TAS as the PC12 around the low 240s. Newer (then) -200s about 13 kts faster.

[The Green Goblin]

And to burst both your bubbles, the conquest does Perth Jamo Perth with reserves :)

The unequaled C441, the best aeromedical aeroplane built :ok:

[compressor stall]

I came on the scene too late to play with that one. I've not heard many say a bad word about it! :ok:

[Harry Cooper]

What wind indications were you getting? Was it indicating a thumping head wind by any chance? Or, was the indicated wind roughly in agreement with the forecast? If the latter, then the ADC measurements and calculations would all have been pretty good.Had around 50 knots on the tail for a GS of around 330. Close to forecast from memory. TQ was around 1830 with an ITT of 760 - 40 degrees below Max and 10 below company limit.

No flash moves with the Whiz Wheel, just read it straight off the MFD. The range I gave was assuming full tanks at take off (both Aux and Main). At the weight we were at I'd estimate around 850 nautical mile range (Nil Wind and Full Mains).

The unequaled C441, the best aeromedical aeroplane builtAgree. Speed and efficiency that a B200 can only dream of and a beautiful machine to hand fly as well.

[rcoight]

Best cruise I've seen so far in a -12NG is 272 KTAS. Book settings. Winter. FL220.

In high summer there seemed to be little in cruise TAS between the NG and the classic (maybe 5-8kt at best).
NG cruise-climbs better, though.

I would guess the latest versions of the B200 are around 15-20kts faster, but don't quite have the payload / range of the PC-12.

Pity about the landing weight restriction of the NG though...

[FGD135]

Had around 50 knots on the tail for a GS of around 330. Close to forecast from memory. TQ was around 1830 with an ITT of 760 - 40 degrees below Max and 10 below company limit.

Thanks Harry.

Those engines must be almost brand new for you to be getting TQ 1830 at FL260. This would have to be the principal reason for such a good TAS.

Does your aircraft have the Raisbeck RARS (inlet mod) and QTP (4 blade prop) mods?

You state the ITT limit as 800, but I figure your aircraft would have to be a B200, hence -42 engines with the ITT limit at 850 (not 800).

[Towering Q]

The unequaled C441, the best aeromedical aeroplane built

Would have to agree with the speed, range and handling of the C441....but, when it comes time to actually load a patient...the PC12 is miles ahead.:ok:

[Harry Cooper]

You state the ITT limit as 800, but I figure your aircraft would have to be a B200, hence -42 engines with the ITT limit at 850 (not 800). ITT limit in the -42 is 800 degrees, you can go 1000 on start and 850 transient but Max Cont/Max cruise is 800. HBC recommend 770 degrees for climb and normal cruise.

Those engines must be almost brand new for you to be getting TQ 1830 at FL260Well under a thousand hours on each engine.

[Howard Hughes]

but, when it comes time to actually load a patient...the PC12 is miles ahead
Even better when loading the crew, what I wouldn't give (OK I wouldn't give up my other engine :E) to not have to push past patients...;)

[FGD135]

ITT limit in the -42 is 800 degrees

Ah yes, my mistake - apologies.

Any Raisbeck mods?

[bankrunner]

I don't think even a brand spanker is capable of those figures.

Beech claims 310 knot cruise for the King Air 250 (the latest model 200GT with a rename, as far as I can tell.)

[Dixons Cider]

Just a little aside from the 1 donk vs 2 discussion...

how do you guys that operate both the Beech and the PC12 find each regarding field performance?

Numbers I've read indicate the PC12 has better, but how is it in the real world?
Cheers

[MyNameIsIs]

"King Air" - says it all in the name! :D

[Harry Cooper]

Any Raisbeck mods?

Apologies FGD, missed that. I believe it has the full EPIC kit installed - Props, Ram Air, Leading Edges etc.

[Captain Nomad]

Real scenario:

Depart point A with full medical gear and crew (including Doctor). Takeoff at MTOW and fly 640nm to point B (2.9 hrs block to block). Pick up two patients and depart for point C. Fly 414nm (1.8 hrs block to block) at FL130 (sea level cabin required) to first available fuel at point C. Takeoff at MTOW with the two patients and fly at FL130 for 724nm to point D (3.1 hrs block to block).

Yes, that's a total of 7.8 hrs and 1,778nm with a significant load and operational considerations. This is one of the areas where the PC12 truly shines in a part of the country where we have some of the longest turboprop aeromedical routes in the world.

Food for thought.

[Howard Hughes]

What is the max diff on the PC-12? FL-130 seems low!

[Captain Nomad]

5.75 Delta P.

[morno]

Normal diff is 5.2psi from memory. Think max is 5.75psi.

I have flown both and they both have their positives and negatives. However for range vs payload, the PC-12 sh*ts all over the B200.

For pure hands on flying, the B200 handles better than the PC-12 (there Jamair, you happy?).

Dixon, the PC-12 also craps all over the B200 for field performance. In a light PC-12, about a 10kt headwind, 30 degree's OAT, I've landed and pulled up the aircraft in as little as 3-400m's. Airborne again in around the same.

morno

[compressor stall]

what morno said. :ok:

[Towering Q]

....plus you get the chance to practice turn-backs and high speed cloud-breaks. (Not everyones cup of tea I realise.:uhoh:)

[Howard Hughes]

I've landed and pulled up the aircraft in as little as 3-400m's.
Also acheivable in the Kingair, it's getting airborne that it doesn't like!:{
....plus you get the chance to practice turn-backs and high speed cloud-breaks.
I'm assuming that's a recall item...:}

[PPRuNeUser0161]

In my humble opinion under normal circumstances these two aircraft should not be compared only for the manufacturers chasing sales in each others market.

The KingAir beyond any argument provides the added safety of two engines and stronger performance at altitude;


The PC-12 does provide advantages in certain areas such as;

Cabin size;
Two access doors (you don't have to squeaze by the patient etc;
Better field porformance;
Range Vs Payload.

For me it comes down to risk management. If you do a lot of night flying in IMC carrying the public, well what would you rather be flying on as a patient? As for never being out of gliding range of an emergency lit aerodrome, even if you are within range, you still have to get someone out to light em up and shoot the perfect approach. What if they don't answer the phone or radio??? Thats a worry hey! What if being at such an altitude is operationally unacceptable due to a ground level cabin requirement? I have over 10 years on the B200 in aeromedical industry and to this day I am still impressed by what it can do and the sense of safety you have when flying at night in remote areas.

I am also aware the PC-12 offers some advantages also.

[Jamair]

Mornos...... coming to grips with the nintendo are we?:E

PC12 max landing flap x-wind limit - 15kt (not demonstrated, MAX)

B200 DEMONSTRATED (not MAX) x-wind limit with landing flap - 25kt.

From the RFDS website, ALA need to be 1000m, does not differentiate between a/c types.

FWIW, a Citation sh!ts over both of them for range v payload (gidday Gaunty!). A b@stard to load stretchers into but :yuk:.

Kingair has passed 6,000 units in service over what, 40 years? PC12 has 1,000 over 15 years. Not really apples with apples. The KingBear flies nicer; WGAS what happens on the other side of the curtain :p.

[Wally Mk2]

......gaud this thread still running? I would have thought the Mods would have had enuf by now:E

I was having a cuppa one day a few years ago with an AD pilot awaiting his med team to come back to En & I asked what's the proc on a non precision App with the ONLY donk out of action if height was up yr sleeve. He proceeded to freighter the crap out of me with his rendition of how to go about this most dangerous maneuver. Me takes me hat off to those that take that level of risk day in day out:ok: Their the real hero pilots not us soft c*cks who fly with redundancy:-
I'm with 'SN'. I did 10 yrs & over 4K hrs on the old Beech. It was like slipping on an old pair of boots where if one sole fell off I had another to limp home on:)

Keep it up boys it's amusing reading:ok:


Wmk2

[Al Fentanyl]

The Engine Fire Detect & Warning system on the PC12 is amusing - red light, chime, aural 'Fire, Fire', but NO EXTINGUISHER:eek:

[Wally Mk2]

"Al F" that's interesting but there's little point in a fire ext as yr number is up by then anyway:E


Wmk2

[megle2]

Performance comparison

King Air 200 and 350 are going in and out of Toowoomba at present.
Elevation about 2,000 ft.

There is a notam on works in progress limiting the runways to less than 700m last time I checked. Even the grass cross runway has been used.

So both the PC12 and the King Air's have enough performance.

[Howard Hughes]

King Air 200 and 350 are going in and out of Toowoomba at present.
Elevation about 2,000 ft.
They are? Out of 700M?

Hmm, sitting here with the B350 book in front of me, not this little black duck!;)

[Captain Nomad]

Sorry, have to correct a couple of things.

Jamair, sorry to rain on your parade but to quote straight out of the PC12 flight manual it expressly states the opposite to what you say. The crosswind is: "Maximum Demonstrated Crosswind for Take off and Landing (not a limitation)" - 15kts with flap 40 progressively increasing to 30kts with flap 0. Althought I will have to say that all aircraft that I have flown (including the PC12) that have a rudder/aileron interconnect make crosswinds a little less enjoyable as you are fighting the interconnect and the wind to achieve the result you want.

Morno, not sure if you got 5.2 diff from a pre Series 9 but series 9&10 classics have a max diff of 5.75 continuous. A dead band exists between 5.75 and 6.35 where the system relief valve opens. A red radial line on the guage at 6.5 psid indicates the maximum permissible cabin pressure and is the maximum switching point set for the cabin pressure diff warning switch. For the /47E (NG) cabin pressurisation control is automatic and it is also regulated to 5.75 continuous. An Amber caution is triggered at 6.0psi and a red warning is triggered at 6.35psi.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

King Air 200 and 350 are going in and out of Toowoomba at present.
Elevation about 2,000 ft.
There is a notam on works in progress limiting the runways to less than 700m last time I checked. Even the grass cross runway has been used.
So both the PC12 and the King Air's have enough performance.

Braver than moi!

I have landed on the grass at Toowoomba exactly ONCE, in dozens of YTWB landings.

First flight after achieving Unrestricted PPL - Archerfield to Toowoomba in a PA28 - didn't like the look of the cross-wind on the bitumen so put it on the grass - thought I was gonna go through the fence at the far end - never again!

Dr :8

[frigatebird]

thought I was gonna go through the fence at the far end


Was taken over there recently in an Ibis Magic by a young new RAA Instructor so I could pick up and bring back a 172. He hadn't been there before, but elected to use the grass for a straight-in approach as there was an aircraft arriving a few minutes after us on a straight-in for the displaced sealed threshold. Haven't had a RAA licence for a while, but know the Ibis is a sprightly performer, however was still surprised by our high approach to this short strip. Prompted him a couple of times that it was short, and we were two up, etc. Anyway, when full flap finally went out, and we made it onto the surface (seemed like half way along), and the brakes weren't being applied vigorously enough for my liking, I had that EXACT same thought. A bit more prompting had us pulled up, just..

[Jamair]

NOMAD: Sorry, have to correct a couple of things. yep, yer right, I was mistaken; it is demonstrated. Yer also correct that at or above the x-wind limit the thing handles like a pig:}:yuk:. I will add that reducing the flap increases the landing distance A LOT - a nil-flap landing means an 80% increase in LDR :eek: at 118kt. Nullifies the suggested advantages somewhat.

I would further suggest that as the majority of Oz PC12 are in RFDS service, their failure rate would be improved by the very high standards of maintenance in that organisation, vs the older Kingairs in the general GA population whose maintenance standards may not be quite as rigorous.

FTDK, in the famous words of that J* captain - 'suck it up princess!' :p Used to fly circuits on the TWB cross-strip in DDACs A36 (WMA) regularly. The Eastland Twotters used it routinely on their TWB-BN RPT.

[megle2]

I should point out that I haven't seen the King Air's out of TWB, just heard their radio calls on Centre. One had 8 pob.

The distance available is less than 700m so you have to be impressed.
Why go for a SE PC12 when the King Air's can handle that.

[Towering Q]

Because it is the range and ease of loading/offloading patients that are the most important factors on a day-to-day basis.

[Desert Duck]

B200's going in and out of TWB - are they the ones who shoot ILS at OK then scud run to TWB?

[Stationair8]

Once upon time at Essendon, it was a dark windy wet night.

As the dashing young handsome Capt Wally drives into work he notices the city lights reflecting in the low cloud and as he steps from the car he fills the cold biting southerly breeze drifting across the rain lashed airfield.
As he checks the forecast he notices most of the southern Victorian aerodromes are covered in low cloud and heavy rain, and the only reasonable places are on the other side of the ranges such as Mangalore.
The TAF for Essendon is showing a overcast cloud base of 500 feet and 3000m in heavy rain, the TTF for Melbourne shows a southerly gusting to 30 knots, broken at 400, ovc at 600 and visibilty of 4000 metres. The ARFOR shows a strong southerly starting at 30 knots at 2000' increasing to 100 kts at 18500.

As the good Capt Wally digests all this information, and ponders whether he should have a crapp, followed by a coffee and then think about preflighting either the trusty old B200 or this new fangled PC-12, the air ambulance flight dispatcher rings and says, "Wally your off to King Island, you know place where they have that really nice cheese, and which arcraft you takin?". Capt Wally thinks great middle of Bass Strait, winters night, low freezing level, **** that water will be cold!

Now the slick salesman said no worries this single engine job, she glide for miles, don't worry your pretty head about engine failures, its a turbine they don't fail. The guy that did the endorsement said the same thing, he certainly showed that it would glide and did everything by the numbers, but then it was a fine day.

Capt Wallly starts working the numbers, EFATO in the PC-12, probably struggle to get back round onto the Essendon ILS or some sort of cloud break procedure , what about engine falure in the cruise at say at FL210 will it be able to glide back for an ILS into Avalon, what about an EFATO out of King Island?

In the end Wally walks over to the old trusty B200, and light the fires and taxi's for rwy 17.

[scarediecat]

Ha ha can't believe this argument still persists :bored:. Comparing apples to oranges it is. Or maybe its just down to plane ol' dollars. Business plans dominate everything now. Aviation is a sport where risks are managed and balance sheets are....balanced. Give a choice to any aviator which craft would you prefer to dominate....Kingair or PC12? Kingair will win everytime. Ego? Safety? Performance? Pecker size? Plane commen sense? No c'mon we gotta pay for this extravagance through tax! Plus we gotta pay for the arts and craft fairs that us pollies get our votes from!!! What of them if we waste the excess on safety? But hey the performance is comparable..of course it is..just listen to the reason here.

<rant over>

[Xcel]

I agree , why the continued arguments?

This thread is rfds pc12 and the verdicts in-
western ops have signed it off no more pc12's for them... Southeast won't have em... Qld well ... Just central to have an "incident" and it's all finished for them and their rfds relationship...

Great machine by all accounts just not a comfortable place "if" it goes pear shaped...

[Towering Q]

western ops have signed it off no more pc12's for them

Not quite....the decision has been made to go back to a mix of single and multi-engined aircraft.

Give a choice to any aviator which craft would you prefer to dominate....Kingair or PC12? Kingair will win everytime

I worked at a base that had a PC12 and a B200. The B200 spent long periods parked up at the back of the hangar. I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with the Kingair, but when you include the life-port patient loading system, more fuel stops and a more time consuming pre-takeoff safety check routine, it was hardly suprising that the PC12 was the preferred option.

[puff]

The other thing too is not all Aeromed flying with RFDS is ALL Med 1 work in the middle of the night in crap weather. A lot of the work they do out of places like Mt Isa, Charleville and Cairns are clinics - in the day and of course mostly in perfect weather. A lot of this work used to be done in clapped out PA31s and the like.

RFDS QLD has C208s - they aren't using them for Med 1s in the middle of the night, but clinics and other non urgent work - as is the PC12 in CNS and mostly the ISA based a/c, this now keeps all the clinic work in-house and they don't have to farm it out to GA operators.

Again you want the arguement of if a Dr is safer in a brand new C208 or a PA31 with 16,000 + hours operated by perhaps a dodgy GA operator ?

RFDS does fantastic work - I think their choice of a/c provides a very safe platform for the wide variety of work that they do, money sadly is not unlimited - and some of the locations served are not 1500m bitumen strips either !

[morno]

Too right Puff, imagine the costs if all those clinics were done in B200's!

And CNS no longer has a PC-12, just the C208's and B200's now. Isa has 2 PC-12's and 3 B200's.

morno

[Wally Mk2]

'S8' ............you bin peeking over da fence watching me sometime ago? That's almost an exact rendition of what was played out many a time except the PC would have been a bad dream if it had actually been in the mix there:ok: Still loved the story though & it brought back many a fond memory:) KI can be a nasty place wx wise, no place for a SE plane that's fore sure & even worse FLI, ooohh ahhhh me shudders at the thought of only one fan flying in & out of those places:-)
One of the places that you would never catch me in a SE in IMC was AY. Those hills where alive with the sound of TWIN engines day & night in some pretty ordinary wx

Some say this is an argument, not so it's healthy debate which is always a good thing. :)
What this 'argument' does however show is that it boils down to $$$$ If the Beech & the PC cost the same to buy/run I think it would be clear cut as to which airframe would be sitting out there on the flight line.
Govt contracts are funny things. I recall many years ago flying the pollies around they only ever went on twin eng craft & mostly 2 crew, that's for obvious reasons, safety. But give those same pollies a choice re SE or twin for a Govt contract where they don't have to fly in them & they would be crying out for the SE frames!

Anyway the PC am sure is a great machine, ultra reliable, cheap to run(compared to the old hack B200 design) have many great features over the old clunker Beech & from a bottom line aspect unbeatable...............BUT:E
Thanks 'S8' for the little chuckle here, 10 yrs not having to worry about an engine failure has left me spoilt I guess but now I look down on my RUFDUS friends from above & still hear the MW's (with a tear in my eye) as they ply that safe sky in the dying days of a once great operation:-) Best of luck to all my mates as they say goodbye to one of the best jobs around:ok:

Wmk2

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

More likely a clapped out old Datsun 120Y,speeds down Nomad Drive does a handbrake turn into the car spot normally allocated for the RFDS Chief Pilot, a fine figure with a mullet steps out of the vehicle turns off the 8 track stereo, stubs out the Marlboro cigarette, grabs his flying scarf, and walks purposely into the RFDS nerve centre and says, "Nets team to Cooma in the PC-12, no wucken furries, I am ready willing and able!"

*Nets Team, a doctor, a nurse and a cot. Generally the nurse will weigh about the same as the neo-natal cot which is about 200kgs. She will generally hate the male species at all costs. Do not get between her and food, remember the movie Jaws. These flight's normally come in in the wee small hours of the morning and involve a trip up country, where you the pilot will sit and wait!

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

More likely a clapped out old Datsun 120Y,speeds down Nomad Drive at 9pm does a handbrake turn into the car spot normally allocated for the RFDS Chief Pilot, a fine figure with a mullet steps out of the vehicle turns off the 8 track stereo, stubs out the Marlboro cigarette, grabs his flying scarf, and walks purposely into the RFDS nerve centre and says, "Nets team to Cooma in the PC-12, no wucken furries, I am ready willing and able!"

*Nets Team, a doctor, a nurse and a cot. Generally the nurse will weigh about the same as the neo-natal cot which is about 200kgs. She will generally hate the male species at all costs. Do not get between her and food, remember the movie Jaws. These flight's normally come in in the wee small hours of the morning and involve a trip up country, where you the pilot will sit and wait!