RAF training cuts leave Typhoons idle

[BEagle]

From the Daily Telegraph:

The Royal Air Force's most advanced warplanes have been unable to drop bombs on Libyan targets because defence spending cuts mean that pilots are not fully trained, The Telegraph can disclose.


See: RAF training cuts leave Typhoons idle - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8446855/RAF-training-cuts-leave-Typhoons-idle.html)

An MoD spokesman said: "We have sufficient Typhoon aircrew with appropriate training for all the systems and weapons to undertake the current tasks."

Oh, of course you have. How silly of the paper to have suggested otherwise...:hmm:

[typerated]

They must have heard you.

LIBYA: RAF Typhoons drop first bombs in combat (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/04/13/355511/libya-raf-typhoons-drop-first-bombs-in-combat.html)

Still, I hear Typhoons have all but stopped using the ranges in the last few years. So I guess there is at least an element of truth in the telegraph report.

TR

[I'm Off!]

Yet the 'demands and pace of operations' are such that the RAF needs to replace all of the Typhoon pilots in theatre at then end of this month because it is too demanding to do more than 2 months in theatre. Really?!

Not the Aircrew's faults I know, just politics. They're doing the best job they can with the shackles they've been constrained within.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Are the Tornado GR4s designating the bombs in for the Typhoons?

[Pontius Navigator]

Typerated, the Typhoon does not carry (can't) practice bombs although it can strafe but an £80m aircraft firing a gun at a £100k truck makes little sense.

There is a training version of paveway but it is still a large piece of metal that has the potential to fly away from its intended target which makes the English and Welsh ranges too small.

To use the Scottish range, or overseas would be expensive as there is no requirement for the tiffy to drop bombs (I think they decided :cool:)

[TEEEJ]

Foghorn Leghorn,

The Telegraph would have you believe that the Litening pods are still in their packing cases at RAF Coningsby. The Typhoon is regularly noted carrying the pods and can designate for itself and others.

The only problem with the designating pod is that it takes up the centre-line station. Rafale for example carries the a pod on a non-stores location. I don't think that there is any other solution for the Typhoon in regards to pod carriage as it would mean taking up one of the AMRAAM recessed locations? There would probably be clearance issues for the nearby pylons if it was mounted there?

Rafale pod location.

Mer et Marine : Toute l'actualité maritime (http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=108100)

http://www.xisquadron.co.uk/News/AFM_GF/KingsofSwing.pdf

No doubt there will be some images coming out of Italy?

TJ

[TEEEJ]

YouTube - RAF Typhoon strikes Libyan battle tank

TJ

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Could that be a Tornado GR4 designating for a bomb released from a Typhoon?

[just another jocky]

Fog Leg - of course it could be, but why would they lie so openly? The truth would eventually out and it's simply not worth it. I'm sure that is what it says it is. And the weapon effect is definitely NOT a DMS Brimstone!

I enjoyed reading the last paragraph of the link by typerated:


Dalton hails the performance of the Tornado force during the UK's Operation Ellamy contribution to NATO's Operation Unified Protector, noting: "It has become the norm for each GR4 to take on four or six targets, each of which has been positively identified." Its key weapons are the Brimstone and Raytheon Systems' Paveway IV 226kg precision-guided bomb.


:ok:

[Foghorn Leghorn]

They wouldn't be lying, as technically the Typhoon would have struck the MBT with a weapon released from the aircraft. It just wouldn't have been laser designated by the same aircraft though.

[Melchett01]

I enjoyed reading the last paragraph of the link by typerated:
Quote:
Dalton hails the performance of the Tornado force during the UK's Operation Ellamy contribution to NATO's Operation Unified Protector, noting: "It has become the norm for each GR4 to take on four or six targets, each of which has been positively identified." Its key weapons are the Brimstone and Raytheon Systems' Paveway IV 226kg precision-guided bomb.


That's a bloomin expensive way of getting rid of MBTs and APCs. Surely something along the lines of a GAU-8 would be cheaper per mission?

[Rengineer]

Forgive me for asking something here that I've been wondering for some time. Why isn't the Typhoon qualified to fire the Brimstone (yet)? It'd seem like a logical thing to do I'd think.

[Spurlash2]

Slight thread drift, but I'm going for a tenuous link with the pilot training bit.
Image of 2 pages from a RFC Training Record book dated 1917.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd247/spurlash2/RFC%201917/05RFCTrainingTransfercard.jpg

[Rector16]

Rengineer

'Forgive me for asking something here that I've been wondering for some time. Why isn't the Typhoon qualified to fire the Brimstone (yet)? It'd seem like a logical thing to do I'd think.'

Put simply - cost. If you've got GR4s to fire the DMS Brimstone (and Stormshadow, 27mm, Pwy2/3/4, etc) then why spend good money this year get your (primary role AD) Typhoons able to duplicate? GR4s will go eventually and just before then you need multi-role Typhoon.

Given 20/20 hindsight you could argue that it would give you cover for Libya, but that's a bit harsh!

[A2QFI]

Not at night!

[Geehovah]

Nice post to lighten the tone Spurlash:ok:

Rengineer; the answer to your question is mired in years of procurement politics:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

Nice post to lighten the tone Spurlash:ok:

Rengineer; the answer to your question is mired in years of procurement politics:ugh:

years of international procurement politics

and at least it has a gun

[Thelma Viaduct]

That's a bloomin expensive way of getting rid of MBTs and APCs. Surely something along the lines of a GAU-8 would be cheaper per mission?

Not nearly as potentially expensive as entering the MANPAD threat range with your GAU-8. (Not that it's a UK option)

I'd like to know whether Brimstone has been guided using mmW in Libya, be interesting to see whether it works as advertised in that regard and whether Toyota pickups are in their data bank. :}

[Rengineer]

Thanks Rector! Put that way, it makes sense.

[draken55]

Libya: RAF Typhoon fighters carry out first ever attack - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8448774/Libya-RAF-Typhoon-fighters-carry-out-first-ever-attack.html)

Was this really the case?

[Foghorn Leghorn]

As I thought, the GR4s would be laser designating the Typhoon bombs in.

[TEEEJ]

Foghorn Leghorn wrote

As I thought, the GR4s would be l@ser designating the Typhoon bombs in.

Why did you think that though? The Typhoon can self designate. If the GR4s assisted then it is simply team work rather than a deficiency on type. See following page discussing the issue.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/431997-decision-axe-harrier-bonkers-28.html

TJ

[Foghorn Leghorn]

TEEJ, it would appear that you have misunderstood me. I questioned whether the Tornado GR4s were laser designating Typhoon bombs. It would appear to be the case that Tornado GR4s are target marking. I was not saying it was a deficiency of the Typhoon, merely that the Tornado GR4s were laser designating for them.

[engineer(retard)]

Possibly for very good reasons as well

[Foghorn Leghorn]

What are the reasons engineer(retard)? It would be interesting to know.

[Pontius Navigator]

Foghorn, you lost me 3 posts back.

as I thought, the GR4s would be laser designating is a statement of the truth?

TEEEJ said:

Why did you think that though? which is what I thought.

you replied:

I questioned whether the Tornado GR4s were laser designating Typhoon bombs. It would appear to be the case that Tornado GR4s are target marking

Where is it stated that the GR4s are marking for the Typhoon? I missed that somewhere.

Then Retard appears to back this up with:

probably for very good reasons

I can suggest that a split marker/bomber solution can work well if the marker has to go low to designate as the bomber can remain high, have a reduced fuel burn, and achieve a greater TV.

[engineer(retard)]

If you can, I suggest that you talk to aircrew that have done co-operative designation and ask why in certain circumstances it is the method of choice. It is not a topic I would post on in open forums.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

PN, sorry if I confused you, I might have been reading between the lines a little from the other thread that's running with this too, the bonkers harrier thread, and thought that the Tornado GR4s were laser designating for the Typhoon bombs.

Thanks for your suggestion of split designating bombing. If the designator is low level, would this not put him in the high threat area and, additionally, would it be a problem with a bomb coming through his height/exploding on the target with the laser designating aircraft getting close to the target? Just some quick thoughts. Is co-operative designation bombing what PN wrote about? I assume it also increases the comms and timing workload between the aircraft and potentially cause more errors? It seems it would be wiser for the Typhoons to self designate their own bombs

[Pontius Navigator]

FH, fratricide is an issue but one easily avoided. The low man can remain above manpad height and the ML SAM is probably neutralised by now. While EO is capable of high resolution at altitude low cloud can negate that thus offering a better eyeball effect.

The Typhoon prefers much higher altitudes than the Tonka.

Certainly it would result in more comms and higher workload except that it would relieve the Typhoon pilot from doing the search and acquire bit - a 3-man or 1.5-man cockpit :)

and a disclaimer, I am purely speculating and have no direct experience except from the weapons course 30 years ago which went into laser techniques in great detail.

[TEEEJ]

Foghorn Leghorn,

Apologies if I misunderstood your post. Thanks for the reply.

In regards to Typhoon and Litening pod. The MoD has released some images of Typhoon in Italy carrying Paveway II.

Interesting that no Litening Pod is fitted on Typhoon, serial ZJ924? The centre-line stores position is empty. Usually a fuel tank or Litening pod is carried.

Link to Typhoon images that are too large for the forum.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/gallery/7653C211_5056_A318_A823150867A995EF/gallery8_big.jpg

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/gallery/765BF9BA_5056_A318_A8419BBEFF734FCF/gallery9_big.jpg

From

RAF - Typhoon and Tornado (http://www.raf.mod.uk/gallery/TyphoonandTornado.cfm)

Enhanced Paveway II is dual mode with GPS and Laser guided.

http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/feature/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms01_055757.pdf

Looks like they were doing buddy-buddy targeting on a joint Typhoon/Tornado mission? So far there is no footage of the other Typhoon involved in the mission.

RAF - News by Date (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive.cfm?storyid=1929A33D-5056-A318-A8D23B7C0AB45945)

TJ

[Rulebreaker]

Flight international is reporting that tornado is designating for typhoon due to the lack of ground attack qualified typhoon pilots. I guess the extra training to allow the the designation and identification of targets within the ROE is whats limiting factor.

[Ogre]

Somewhat tongue in cheek, it all appears to me to be an inefficient method of delivering LGBs by using two expensive aircraft.

How about fitting a big long rack in the back of a Herc, and filling it with LGBs (think about images of WW2 destroyers and depth charges). The Herc then pootles around the area of choice at altitude, waiting for a designator aircraft to find a target. The designator aircraft marls the target, the Herc flies over at great altitude and they roll a bomb out of the back and into the basket!

Allegedly the precedent was set during the Falklands when dumb bombs were dropped by a similar method. Think of the benefits, loiter time on a Herc is considerably greater than the designator aircraft, so you can put one up and sortie the designators. Also the number of LGBs the Herc could carry would be greater than any other single aircraft.

Only one drawback, we don't have any spare Hercs!

Hang on, what's that black car pulling up outside my house.......

[Abbey Road]

... it all appears to me to be an inefficient method of delivering LGBs by using two expensive aircraft.So, to clarify, your suggested method substitutes one of those "expensive aircraft" for a cheap, dirty, smelly Herc? Have I got that right?:E

[Ogre]

Abbey Road

Exactly, instead of using a two souped up touring cars racing around to deliver a limited payload, we use several touring cars to spot the delivery points and an articulated lorry to make the deliveries.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ogre, and even before the Falklands we had the Argosy bomber. IIRC it could carry 4x1000lb under each wing.

Getting airborne was something else again.