World is changing will QR change ?

[QR UNITED 2009]

Gbagbo ,Gaddafi ,Mubarak are removed from power after years and years of dictatorship can we expect more dictators to be brought to court and face judge for their misstreatment and harrasement ?

Is a 5 start Airline of one of world's richest country place for dictator ?

[Wizofoz]

Are QR staff going to mount a coup d'etat to depose him?

[NoJoke]

I admire your direct approach. I think taking into acoount the fiscal reports from the Company finances, lateral thinking and flexibility on behalf of the Managers and good intentions from the CEO I think the answer might be - NO! :\

[a345xxx]

I tried to make my answer short and sweet but it seems I need more letters...

The answer is....... No! :)

[scorpio]

hahahahaahahahahaaahahaahaahaaaaaaaaaa:O:ugh::{:=:oh:

[Luke SkyToddler]

It took a "No Fly Zone" to remove Gaddafi ...

... maybe QR pilots could do the same

[Blacksteel7]

Qatar Airways company template is very simple: "we give you a type rate and nothing more". This airline won't have any problem with pilot shortage. Why ? Simple again. They know there are a lot of pilots willing to face this kind of treatment and stay in this crap environment for three years to get a nice brand new aircraft type stamped on their licenses. Some of them will face even a little bit more to get an upgrade and then "Khalas". They will go home or to somewhere else. This is the reason that nothing here will ever change. Simply I give you a type rate and you give me your life for three years . The situation will get worse when the cadet program starts. It will feed all Goat needs. Every 5 years a bunch of new Captains will come out from the oven. Experience ? It is not a big issue up here. Just look around or check it. Joining Qatar Airways (QR) - all you need to know about it (threads merged). The Goat doesn't want any kind of commitment with its pilots. Unfortunately some pilots become wrapped up in this country for some reason. They will stay here until being kicked out just for one Evian water.

[Ronaldo 330]

AAB is very good manager every year he has 400 -600 people resign & terminated and he brings anouther 400-600 to replace them thats so financialy good for an Airline we dont want to mantion reputation impact .

[loc22550]

Thats Qatar airways paradox...:

They simply don't care if loyalty problem cost a lot to the airline...(they haven't done anything to solve this problem!)
BUT...on the other hand If they can save just a couple of riyals by downgrading crew's hotel , they will do it.!

[chainsaw]

Ronaldo 330...

And all who are involved in the other QR thread here in Knoteetingham...........

The latest from the Worlds "5 Star" Airline...

Yes, Akbar has been very successful, for a number of reasons, and some of them definitely 'dubious' from a modern-management perspective and seem to result from what, to a sane outsider seems to be the result of a Gulf-typical xenophobic dislike of outsiders, yet at the same time, a grudging realisation that without those outsiders, things can't/won't be done!

Akbar has (and I have to give him credit here :() used (ruthlessly) 'guest-worker' expertise to drive QR from where it was when he was 'annointed' to take over QR in 1997 from the other lunatic that previously ran QR - Bozo the Clown, AKA as Sheikh Hamad.

The growth of the airline is, and always has been, Akbar's primary focus, and QR has got where it is today without any need whatsoever to upgrade its management-style, its HR practices, or its organisational culture, because it simply hasn't ever never needed to.

As a (so-called) 'guest-worker' in Qatar with QR, you really need to COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND that Akbar only gives a **** about A) himself, B) the owners of the airline, C) the financiers (if other than B), and D) himself. In that order. :8

If you have any doubts whatsoever, re-read priorities A) - D) above. Then re-read them. They are the facts of life as they exist in QR.

I'm not a fan of Akbars 'mercurial' short-fused management style. And I have experienced it first-hand, so can, I think, comment here on PPRuNe about it with some 'authority'.

Continued complaints here on PPRuNe about T&Cs in QR and/or the petty dismissal code for umpteen million so-called 'transgressions ignore the fact that while Akbar's driving the show, the Qatari way, and is (and always has been) smart enough to take advantage of the fact that while the supply of guest-worker aviation personnel continues to exceed demand, he CAN (and will) do EXACTLY as he likes, and HOW he likes, WHEN he likes, because while the status quo remains, he doesn't need to think about changing QR's HR practices or T&Cs for the purposes of improving staff motivation and reducing employee turnover.

Simply Ronaldo 330, employee happiness and motivation is not a QR management priority.

It never has been, and never will be, at least not as far as I can judge, in the foreseeable future. :(

And it's pretty much the same at EK, EY and a lot of other airlines too these days, by the sounds of things.

Get used to it. If Akbar can get away with cutting costs by downgrading crew accommodation etc etc., then he will do it, because he knows that as things presently stand, he doesn't need to give a **** about how his actions affect staff.

It's the same in other airlines, and loc22550, and no airline CEO these days seems to give a stuff about staff loyalty ('engagement'), or the true cost to the organisation of a 'disengaged' staff, because that cost doesn't usually get included as a P&L item, and it isn't immediately apparent in its effect on the bottom line of the Balance Sheet.

So, yes, it is a paradox, as you correctly have identified, because the true cost of such a myopic (backward??) management style defies logic in an environment such as the Gulf, where money's importance is paramount in the mindset of big is good, bigger is better, and biggest is BEST.

A typical 'little Dick' syndrome that despite the effects of the GFC is still alive and well in the Gulf, on show for all to see! :ugh:

Forensically, a 'disengaged' staff leads to increased employee turnover and increased absenteeism. The cost of employee turnover is about 150% of the employees'remuneration package for EACH voluntary and involuntary resignation, however the management metrics used by QR and a lot of other airlines don't seem to take that cost into account.

The answer? You won't/can't change the way Akbar manages QR until the demand for guest-worker aviation personnel > (available) supply for outfits such as QR in the Gulf. EOS (End Of Story = Khalas).

For anyone who's not a GCC passport holder, the answer's pretty simple really for life in the Gulf as an expatriate, and that's (as it was, and ever more shall be) when the bucket of **** gets heavier than the bucket of money it's time to leave.

....which is exactly what I did. :ok:

إن شاء الله

[SHIFTY]

Spot on Chainsaw.

"It is what it is!"

Why am I still enjoying it here, I'm worried that I must be insane?

[Duolabs_Box]

Good post!!! Ney, great!
You finally understood mate? :ok:

[QR UNITED 2009]

EVERY DOG HAS HIS TIME !

When his time come no one will even turn to see him or maybe just to spit in his face where ever he land in any part of world .

[loc22550]

AAB Very ""successful""...??

Chainsaw, if i'm the CEO of a company with 500+ resignations/year,and i'm struggling every day to fill the gap...as a manager sorry but i would feel myself very lucky rather than very ""successful""in what i'm doing...:bored:

[JCUERVO]

chainsaw...I tip My hat to you sir...First round on me if we ever fly together

[chainsaw]

Let me say right at the outset, I'm no fan of QR, but things need to be put into their correct perspective here.

loc22550, you seem to demur about whether Akbar has been successful.

Successful

— adj

1. having succeeded in one's endeavours
2. marked by a favourable outcome
3. having obtained fame, wealth, etc

I guess it depends on which metrics you use to come up with an answer to that loc22550.

Let's consider growth/expansion of the airline vs. staff turnover metrics.

An average 30% per annum growth since 1997 for the airline, presently ranked amongst the top 10 airlines by Skytrax, with it being classed as a 5 star airline vs. EK as a four star airline, 100 destinations, and a present fleet 95 aircraft, with 182 on order (sure, a lot of the present 95 will be replaced by the aircraft on order).

In 2005 QR had 42 aircraft and 56 destinations (Strategic Direction - The Airline Industry Volume 22 Numer 6 2006).

Fourteen years ago loc22550, when Akbar took over as the ringmaster of circus QR, the airline had 2 B747-100's, a clapped-out B747SP that was sold to the Foreign Minister (and which resulted in an absolute debacle at the time), 4 B727's, and two A300-600's. There were then about 15 destinations. Athens and Istanbul had previously been destinations, but they were cancelled in 1996 I think (?).

So, by the measures of succeeding in his endeavours to make the airline grow, which has clearly resulted in a favourable outcome for QR (in terms of its Skytrax ranking), and Akbar's award of 2005 Airline Personality of the Year Award at the 12th World Travel Awards, then you'd have to say that Akbar has been successful.

However, from the ongoing posts here on PPRuNe concerning QR staff 'disengagement', and from your alleged staff turnover figures, then 'yes', I'd agree with you that Akbar has been unsuccessful in the field of HR management.

But as mentioned in my previous post, Akbar simply doesn't need to worry about staff 'engagement' or 'disengagement' matters.

I'm not saying if you don't like it leave loc22550, as seems to be the usual GCC response to expatriates if they express disatisfaction, but the impression I get is that your bucket of **** seems to be heavier than your bucket of money, so I have to ask why you bother to keep on keeping on at QR (if that's actually where you are)? :confused:

There's lots of jobs elsewhere these days if you care to look, particularly if you've got A330 or B777 time. :ok:

[loc22550]

Damn you really think to be impressed by this dictator "success"story..

[chainsaw]

Damn you really think to be impressed by this dictator "success"story..

WRONG! :ugh:

You're allowing YOUR prejudice towards QR to override the FACTS relating to the airline's growth loc2250, so nice try, but no banana. :ugh:

I suggest you take a few moments to actually read ALL that I wrote before you shoot from the lip.

When (if) you take the time to do so, you'll see that I actually said that I'm no fan of QR and that Akbar has been unsuccessful in the field of HR management. :=

[Luke SkyToddler]

Or could it just be that AAB is the lucky monkey who was on top of the tree the day the Al-thani's decided they wanted to play "airline" games and gave him a bottomless pit of money to spend.

All his 5 stars and huge growth plans are great but they won't look so good when some excessively fatigued A320 pilots bang it into a mountainside some rainy night at 3 am on the subcontinent. This industry isn't like all others chainsaw, all this breakneck growth you like so much is a BAD thing unless it's managed correctly to maintain safety standards. P1ssing off your pilots so much that half of them leave every couple years and all the experience is constantly draining out of the airline, that cannot be ignored or apologized for. I don't care two coppers about skytrax 5 star ratings, the man is a very bad and dangerous manager of airlines and the day will come when he has blood on his hands.

All the warning signs are there right now :=

[chainsaw]

Luke,

I completely agree with you, but as yet, QR hasn't had a 'biggie', so you're hypothesis seems without foundation until the facts prove otherwise.

QR has come close to a major event though - the classic one being the Dhaka A300 high speed RTO in '98, which was incorrectly reported as the result of a birdstrike.

Having said that, Air France's appalling safety record over the last few years is nothing to ignore, and at the moment, QR has a long way to go to beat that record I'm afraid.

Still, anything's possible, as you infer, particularly if you have a toxic work environment like seems to (still) exist at QR.

[Homo Ludens]

Back in my "union" days I learned something I'd like to share with you, gentlemen:
One can only judge the success (or the lack of) of a manager/managerial team if one knows the tasks/goals given to them by their superiors (be that royal family, owner or shareholders).

On the other hand, yes, the huge achievement of QR under its CEO is a known fact, but who's to say what it could have achieved under somebody else with a different managerial methods. May be less, or, may be, much, much more.
Just food for thought...
Cheers!

[chainsaw]

Thank you Homo Ludens! :D

Nicely put!

Luke............re your edit:

This industry isn't like all others chainsaw, all this breakneck growth you like so much is a BAD thing unless it's managed correctly to maintain safety standards. P1ssing off your pilots so much that half of them leave every couple years and all the experience is constantly draining out of the airline, that cannot be ignored or apologized for. I don't care two coppers about skytrax 5 star ratings, the man is a very bad and dangerous manager of airlines and the day will come when he has blood on his hands.

Really?

You are clearly demonstrating your prejudices here. Maybe you need to try to look at things OBJECTIVELY rather than the SUBJECTIVE nonsense you're spouting!

Where did I say I 'liked all this breakneck growth'?

I didn't Luke. It's as simple as that.

So your retraction of that statement might be in order, in the interests of a BALANCED approach to this thread, which seems to be on the verge of total derailment by the idiotic, childish, emotive and subjective nonsense that you posted. :yuk:

Tell me, since you seem to know so much about airline management, WHY, in an OBJECTIVE way Akbar is 'a very bad and dangerous manager of airlines.' What metrics are you using for your criteria of 'bad' and 'dangerous'. What formal management qualifications do you have to make that wild statement?

Also tell me in an OBJECTIVE way why 'the day will come when he has blood on his hands.'

Waiting for your reasoned, objectively-based response. :zzz:

[loc22550]

Kijangnim:Sure he has a big picture..
When asked by the journalist about is his goal/ambition..;
The Answer given by AAB,( i was expecting everything but this one..):"to have one a/c more than EK":uhoh: exactly like a child!
It shows as well the unhealthy Gulf mentality:the bigger the best!
In the mean time i Just wonder if this was an emotional or rational answer......:bored:

[loc22550]

"NO ceo will answer such question.."
Well...he did!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Yeah sorry about the edit chainsaw, it landed a couple mins after your post, I didn't think it changed my basic argument that much, for you to get mad with me like that :confused:

1) there's no need to get precious about emotive vs balanced arguments and thread derailment, the thread started off with a silly title and a silly concept ya know :rolleyes:

2) So lets be "objective" about AAB's management performance. *Lets start like all good financial analysts, by running a judgmental eye over the annual accounts, shareholder reports etc to determine some basic stuff like profitability and return on capital invested ... oh wait we can't :rolleyes: *There's no point demanding "objective" debate about AAB's managerial performance because neither you or me or anyone else knows whether QR is wildly profitable or a complete financial disaster.

3) Talking it up about "objectivity" when you have absolutely zero financial data to quantify why and where all this growth is happening or whether it's profitable or not and treating that as the sole "objective" measure of AAB's performance - and then congratulating his management abilities on that basis - just makes you look foolish. Enron and Bernard Madoff had some pretty good growth figures too I believe?

Also on that basis there's not much point getting sarcastic about my airline management qualifications either, it might be more relevant to ask where HIS qualifications are perhaps.

4) The safety issue is not emotional claptrap, it is absolutely entwined with any verdict on performance, especially in an airline like QR where the CEO micromanages and interferes with and routinely overrules decisions from his subordinates. Safety HAS to be entrusted to the hands of qualified professionals and they HAVE to be allowed to do their job without politics and interference and fear for their jobs if they stand up over issues. Can you " objectively" say that's happening?

What else with regard to safety. *The fatigue due to excessively harsh rostering is real and it's a huge issue affecting every pilot in the place. *The effect of fatigue on performance IS objectively measurable and the subject of a large volume of research, none of which appears to reached the attention of the people in charge of QR rostering practices.*

What else ... The 5 different chief pilot training appointments in last 4 years is real. *The incredibly high rate of resignations / terminations of good, experienced pilots is real. *The corruption and nepotism that allows sub standard pilots to keep their jobs despite disastrous performances in the simulator is real (and personally observed by me). The appallingly bad CRM environment between cockpit and cabin crew is real and indeed it's positively encouraged by AAB with things like the segregated CRM courses. All these things and plenty more should be huge red flags to anyone with a basic knowledge of historical causes of accidents, who was to study the risk profile of QR today.

The fact that AAB must surely be aware of all this and yet he chooses not to rectify these problems, indeed they all got worse during my time there, is plenty reason enough for me to call him a bad and dangerous person to be let loose in charge of an airline. *You may call it emotional and subjective, I say I'm calling things as I see them, no amount of discussion about objectivity or the airline's amazing growth record or how it has more skytrax stars than EK, will change my point of view on that one.

[chainsaw]

Thanks for your response Luke. :zzz:

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well said gutter ... JAA / FAA / CASA are you reading this?

The sad thing amongst all this is that QR "could" have been the best job on earth.

Imagine if the al-thanis had gone to a real pro like Herb Kelleher or Richard Branson and said "we want you to create an airline for us, you will have unlimited funds, pay no tax, get heavily subsidized fuel, no landing fees, no interest on loans, your cabin crew and ground staff will be on salaries a tiny fraction of your first world competitors. We want it to be a profitable and innovative company with a good reputation, that spreads the good name of Qatar all round the world" What do you think the place would have been like ...

All the aggressive nonsense and control freak stuff is just so ... unnecessary, if he would just let the good people he's got, do their jobs without fear and constantly driving them away

/sigh

[loc22550]

Gutter..who is gone be suprised by that (safety target)???
Have you seen our roster pattern sometime..Especially on 320, when you treat people like robots not human..what do they expect..an improve of the trend or what??!!?!?Lets be serious...!
Sometime You come back at noon minimum rest and than another long turn around at night...!!Sure you can show your roster to any other airline ,they won't believe what they see!Sometime i feel like i'm not flying with crew anymore but Zombie...
And i'm not even talking about any emergency..should any emergency occurs,just wondering whats gone be the issue with such a level of fatigue amongst cockpit and cabin crew.
Maybe people sitting comfortably in office and at home every night.. should really do something..especially that they known about the problem!

[chainsaw]

Luke,

Yep! Imagine IF the al-Thanis DID become really focussed on things other than themselves for once, eg., QR, and mandated (hyothetically of course) that the CEO (Akbar):

...create a world-class airline for Qatar, which worked under a defined Business Plan, within a pre-defined and documented budget, paid the State a return (=tax), paid its way like everyone else is expected to at Doha in the real (=normal) world terms WRT to world benchmark JET A1 prices and parity with all other players WRT to airport facility charges, paid parity interest rates on finance funds (err....that could be a bit tricky though, as charging interest in Islamic society is apparently haram), paid competitive aircrew salaries, conformed with international standards, and complied with international recommended practices) and after all of that, turned a profit for us (QATAR)!

BIG BIG ask to meet all of that wish list, but IF THEY (the al-Thanis) actually DID that and stuck to the plan then QR would be then be a totally awesome place to work at if it met all those objectives. :ok:

The pesent CEO though, as you rightly allude to Luke, probably isn't able to accommodate all of those contemporary management OBJECTIVES into his current portfolie of knowledge/skills/experience OR understanding of management 101. :ugh:

loc22550...

You continue to surprise me by your persistent parroting-on about QR T&Cs. :ugh:

Please read, then RE-READ my previous post which said:

For anyone who's not a GCC passport holder, the answer's pretty simple really for life in the Gulf as an expatriate, and that's (as it was, and ever more shall be) when the bucket of **** gets heavier than the bucket of money it's time to leave.

If you haven't got the balls to do anything about it loc22550, then grow some, face realities, and...

START DOING SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS...

...BUT for GOODNESS SAKE WILL YOU PLEASE STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM HERE ON PPRUNE!

[loc22550]

Don't known really whats your problem Chainsaw...
I'm talking about REAL issue here.., and Now that you left QR..leave us please!

[LABRISEDEMER]

Loc, you really are pathetic.
Had your pprune complaints ever changed anything on your daily life
in Qatar Airways and in Qatar?
If the answer is yes then keep on doing so, if no then be sure that those facts and treatments will never change in Qatar unless an union or pilot association
are created which I really doubt about.
So "try to grow those If you haven't got the balls to do anything about it "
and go for greener pastures but please stop moaning and wailing night and day
about those T Cs, it will not help nor change anything except easing a little bit your huge frustration and your boundless resentment.

[Brian Cohen]

Loc, you really are pathetic.

He might be pathetic and frustrated but there's always a lot of true in his posts!

[chainsaw]

He [loc22550] might be pathetic and frustrated but there's always a lot of true in his posts!

How 'did you know loc22550 is a 'He' Brian?? :confused:

The inference from your post (no 2 in your PPRuNe career I think??) is that you're possibly mates with him or something, maybe? :E

Or maybe you're loc22550 posting under a 'new' alias?? :8

Whatever, I reckon you're full of sh1t Brian, because there's clearly no 'might be' about loc225550 being pathetic and frustrated whatsoever. :O

His/her/its posts clearly demonstrate that he/she/it clearly IS pathetic and frustrated, and that he/she/it is obviously a BIGGER bullsh1t artist than you are, if you and loc22550 aren't one and the same! :ok:

Some advice for the 'two' of you.........give up while you're behind.

:cool:

Regards,

chainsaw.

[loc22550]

Chainsaw,seems that that you really enjoy coming here again and again,trying to hijack the thread,insulting people,despite the fact that you have nothing to do with Q.R anymore!
So,if your level of education permits..,at least try to improve the content of your language.

[fatiguedpilot]

And yet another QA thread sinks in to depravity, what a surprise, yes everybody has a view point, and yes some get on our nerves with there endless (worse than some TV channels) repeats, but this is meant to be an information and rumor network, not a slag everybody and thing off network. I respect your views but the petty bickering day in and day out detracts from what could have been a relevant discussion topic.
And quite frankly the way all QA threads seem to end up, is it no wonder this part of the world is the way it is.

Peace out
:ugh: