Long Haul - NO FRILLS

[spitfire747]

If EasyJet and Ryanair can fill a B737 to Europe for £30 a seat no frills and BA etc. can do the same for £100+ with all the trimmings. .then

what is the economic reason that a NO FRILLS long haul operation can't be set up, say filling a B747 to Miami charging £150 per seat with no food or drink, just buy your own.

Is this economically not possible on longer routes ?

[newswatcher]

spitfire, I can't remember the detail of who paid for in-flight services, but wasn't this Freddy Laker's strategy for his "Skytrain" service to New York?

[spitfire747]

Newswatcher, me neither i believe you are right, bit of a runaway success that wasn't it before the big boys got jealous !

Not sure about you or anyone else but most of the flights I have been on, I only eat the food because it is there, it is not good and could quite easily be bypassed.

I would eat before the flight and just get drinks on board - all if the ticket price was cheaper.

Maybe there is another aspiring Freddie out there... Sir Richard, Stelios......??

[ 07 February 2002: Message edited by: spitfire747 ]</p>

[Lima Tambo]

Laker's 'SkyTrain' charged for meals and drinks and offered good value flights. In fact it could be argued that he was the 'Pioneer' of value for money air travel. He got run out of town by the big boys though. I enjoyed my flights on Laker (thanks Freddie! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ).

Later there was People's Express but that was a different story! (still paid for food and drinks though). Interestingly they didn't carry 'passengers'; they carried 'customers' thereby avoiding certain legalities and conventions (allegedly!) :) :)

[Roadtrip]

Brillant idea! Let's see, how many could we get into an Airbus 380 with 27 inch seat pitch, no need for galleys, and a couple of lavatories.

[scanscanscan]

I think Fred only failed because he borrowed in one currency and got paid in another and the exchange rate direction basically killed him.. .Should have been advised by the chap at Allied Irish and done the opposite.

[LAVDUMPER]

Spitfire,

It's all about utilization/volume when you participate in a "commodity" and low-margin business.

EasyJet makes money because they operate like Southwest and turn around their aircraft multiple times a day - that is the only way they can make money with such low fares - by reducing "unit costs" and keeping the aircraft moving...

Making serious money on long-haul would require either a lot of uncomfortable seats, a super low-cost operating structure, and probably "medium-haul" routes of less than 7-8 hours. If you could get two or three full flights in the air on a daily basis (using a full 747), then you might be able to make some money if the cost structure is low enough...

I suppose the capital costs on 747 Classics are reasonable now so that you could purchase a bunch for the cost of a new 747-400... Of course, maintenance could then become an issue with older aircraft...

If Easy were to start-up an operation like this, it should use a slightly different brand name - maybe "Easyhaul"... I doubt loyal Easy passengers would mind the "no frills" concept since they are already used to it on the short-haul flights...

. .Cheers

[flypastpastfast]

Sir Freddie Laker was really the original budget airline maestro, but was undone by events surrounding another carrier - as everyone now knows. (a lot of people were sued in the process, which is why I didn't name the airline).

The problem is really related to how low the price would have to go to attract punters away from current economy carriers. In Sir Freddies day, transatlantic fares had previously been very expensive, but with more 'competition', fares in economy (the cheapest ones) are now really pretty low for a long flight, i.e returns for 199 quid.

I'm not saying they couldn't go lower, just that the difference would not be so great as was seen in Sir Freddies time. On transatlantic routes, all airlines cherish the business/first punters as they are the really profitable ones. This suggests that economy tickets are near as low as they could go (but if anyone knows differently, feel free to correct me)

Following Freddie of course, Virgin gave other transatlantic carriers a real run for their money (if I remember correctly, their starting price at launch for NY return from London was £99), but that is very well documented in the annals of aviation.

The absence or presence of food really does not make much difference to an economy ticket price.

In the case of budget airlines, it is more to do with the way in which the airline is run,i.e selecting the more profitable routes, cutting pay, perks and so on and operating point to point, only having a single aircraft type, no tickets, etc..

The other factor is charter flights, and they probably are the cheapest possible. So goezytransatlantic or whatever, would probably not be able to undercut them by much.

I don't mean to be cynical, but fly economy transatlantic with some carriers nowadays, and you will think you ARE flying budget!

[Cyclic Hotline]

Many of these battles were fought and defined a long time before. They are not new issues, simply the business cycle repeating itself - for a variety of reasons.

In discussing the history of Freddy Laker and the origins of Laker Airways, I would thoroughly recommend you read "Fly me I'm Freddy" by Roger Eglin and Berry Ritchie. ISBN 0892561270. The authors were (are?) Sunday Times journalists and the book is exceptionally well researched and substantiated. You will learn a considerable amount about the UK airline business; the Airlines that are no longer around; and the origins of low cost air travel. It is NOT a recent phenomena and the British Aircraft manufacturers had much to thank Laker for, including launching the BAC-111 and the VC-10. His own design at Aviation Traders, the Accountant although never produced, was remarkably similar to the HS-748, yet another revolutionary design in it's day.

The book was written in 1980, so does not deal with the ensuing failure of Laker Airways and the lawsuits that followed. Whilst the major airlines denied the existance of demand for low-cost airlines, a booming "charter club" business sprung up to deliver the product that the consumer demanded! Cheap travel was in demand, and savvy business's provided it! Travel costs were reduced to affordable levels such that the average person could consider using air-travel. It was volume that created the airline business, it was low cost travel that created the volume!

I thoroughly recommend this book to anyone who is relatively new to the industry, as it is an excellent primer for the development of the post-war British aviation industry.

It is also worth reading "Losing my Virginity" by Richard Branson, as this details much of the same type of institutionalized resistance and power that was wielded against another carrier in the next cycle.

[chiglet]

Hmmm. ."Cheeeep Fights". .Ballpark figures. .B747. Landing fee, £1000. Handling fee &lt;£?00&gt; Pushback £50+, Fuel, 10p [approx] per kilo. Pax Tax, en route charge, Landig fee at destination.. ."Charter" Co's 'hopefully' make a profit.. .How do the "Low Cost" Carriers [actually] make a profit? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> . .we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[shon7]

also look into People Express- seemed to be along some of the same concepts you mentioned.

Longhaul has been difficult to operate as no frills because firstly you'd be operating (almost certainly) to a foreign country and all this works with heavy govt. regulation etc etc. You can read about it in a book titled "Airline Economics."

Also one of the key concepts around shorthaul- no frills is - Turnover time. Southwest, Jetblue, Ryanair etc, have very low turnover times sometimes less than half-an- hour. With a long haul carrier this is just not possible.

Lastly traditional carriers can quickly drive these types out of the market. Most airlines operate what is called "yeild management systems" and thus in instances will be able to match short haul fares while at the same time not losing their higher paying passengers. Read about it online and ask around. It is quite interesting.

[polzin]

Don't rail roads charge for meals ?