Suggestions for a day or two in Florida

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

I've just found out I'll be making a short business trip to Miami (technical work rather than drug running you'll be glad to hear). I have the option to go out a day or two early, and thought it might be an ideal opportunity to have a short taster of what GA in Florida has to offer.

The trip is 6 weeks away. I'm a fairly new PPL, ~80 hours, mostly PA28, and really just looking to understand the differences in procedures and the benefits of the way GA operates there. It would also help me determine what a future flying holiday there might entail.

I wasn't expecting to try and convert my UK licence into an FAA one - I've heard this can be done quicker than the 3 month max time ( but no guarantees), so would expect to be flying with an instructor.

Although my business trip is to Miami, I could be based in Orlando for the extra day(s).

Can anyone advise on where I should look to hire from, what I should aim to include in the flights and any other tips? I'm assuming that I can just do this with the standard Visa waiver - I'm not going to be logging time as PIC or gaining any specific training qualification or rating. I could argue it's all sightseeing, but must be very clear that I can't break the rules.

I've been to Florida 3 times before (holiday and business), and to the US on many business trips, but never had any GA activities there.

Any insights appreciated

SD

[Whopity]

Ryan Aviation (http://www.ryanseaplanes.com/) at Flagler for Seaplanes and Southeast Aerobatics (http://www.southeastaero.com/) at St Augustine

[BackPacker]

I'm not going to be logging time as PIC or gaining any specific training qualification or rating. I could argue it's all sightseeing, but must be very clear that I can't break the rules.

So you don't need a visa or TSA approval. Good.

Don't know about Miami (I guess I would do a sightseeing tour along the Keys and maybe the Everglades) but east of Orlando there's Kennedy Space Center with one of the biggest runways in the world and a few other things that are highly interestesting.

I don't know the specific procedures to get to overfly (and maybe do a few T&Gs) there, but any instructor out there should know.

West of Orlando is Kissimmee, which is home base of Orlando Flight Training, one of the three or four JAA schools in Florida. They operate PA28s, C152s and C172s. Useful if you want to pick up your night rating while over there, for instance. But realistically, if all you want is a bit of sightseeing with an instructor as PIC, you'll find that there are multiple flight schools on virtually every airfield, and any of these would do just fine.

Edited: Just saw Whopities suggestion about seaplanes. I seem to remember some of those at Winter Haven, just a few miles West of Kissimmee too. And there is (was?) a place at Kissimmee that operates P51 Mustangs.

[S-Works]

Pelican Aviaion at North Perry. It's about 40 minutes drive from Miami. Owned and run by a great English couple.

[Heliport]

Everglades, Florida Keys and Key West ...... Info and pics (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/446237-flying-hours-building-florida.html)

[Sir George Cayley]

**** that. Get your ass down to Mangos Tropical Bar on South Beach Miami.
After a few Caipirinha you'll be flying.

Sir George Cayley

[Jodelman]

Just saw Whopities suggestion about seaplanes. I seem to remember some of those at Winter Haven, just a few miles West of Kissimmee too.

Winter Haven is home to Jack Brown's Seaplane base. Very nice people. I had a half hour with an instructor last week and did six landings for the very reasonable sum of $82.50.

[BackPacker]

Winter Haven is home to Jack Brown's Seaplane base.

1200 USD, 2 days for an FAA seaplane rating. No TSA required and no M-1 visa either if it's only incidental to your visit. I know what I would do...

In fact, my boss wants me to go to Orlando for a conference in the fall. I might just add on two days vacation...:ok:

[XLC]

Hi Backpacker,

- do you mean that for a rating you do not need a TSA nor a M-1 ? I am surprised by that.
- Furthermore, can the FAA instructor give you the seaplane rating on your JAR? Am a bit more surprised

[AdamFrisch]

It doesn't need TSA, but if I'm correct it assumes you have a FAA license to base that off. I think some people have done seaplane ratings that they've later managed to endorse through CAA and to their JAA and then it's initial training and not an add on, so you would need TSA.

I could be wrong, but this is how I've come to understand it.

[BackPacker]

- do you mean that for a rating you do not need a TSA nor a M-1 ? I am surprised by that.

TSA approval is required for:
- An initial airmens rating (aka your initial PPL or other initial license)
- A multi-engine rating
- An instrument rating
- A type rating for aircraft over a certain number of pounds (17.000 or so, from memory)

Taildragger, seaplane and such are exempted. The TSA is only interested in people coming to the US to significantly enhance their ability to fly a large airliner into a building. (Sounds cruel but that's almost the exact wording in the various TSA bills etc.)

An M1 visa is required if the primary reason for your visit to the US is getting trained for something. But since your primary reason is work-related and the flight training is only incidental to that, you need a visa for whatever work-related thing you're doing. Or, if the work-related thing qualifies, and you are otherwise qualified, you can get in under the Visa Waiver Program. (But don't forget ESTA in that case.)

However, as Adam points out, you need an FAA license to put the seaplane rating on. If its a 61.95 "piggyback" FAA PPL then you can simply pick that up (after a little paperwork exercise between you, the FAA and the CAA) at the nearest FSDO but you need to remember that you're building a house of cards: Your seaplane rating is based on your FAA PPL, which is based on your CAA PPL and your medical. If any of these crumble (for instance because the number of your CAA license changes) the house of cards comes tumbling down. Is that important? If you're just doing the seaplane rating as a thrill activity, with no serious intention to use it ever after, it's probably not. But you wouldn't want to get an instrument rating and put it on such a piggyback certificate.

The alternative is to get a standalone FAA PPL. But this is going to require a little more training than just the BFR for the 61.95 piggyback and it'll be harder to argue that you still don't need an M1 visa. Also, we've had a heated debate on here a while ago about whether you need TSA clearance to do a standalone FAA PPL when you are already the holder of another ICAO PPL. I think you don't, and others think you do, and the discussion ended inconclusively - in the end nobody involved went as far as getting the TSA interpretation in writing. Look up the discussion if you want to, and see who you agree with. This is not the place to repeat it.

- Furthermore, can the FAA instructor give you the seaplane rating on your JAR? Am a bit more surprised

No, he can not. He can only give you the FAA seaplane rating on your FAA PPL (piggyback or standalone).

Also I think the requirements of the JAA seaplane rating and FAA seaplane rating are different enough that the CAA will not give you your JAA seaplane rating solely based on your FAA seaplane rating. I would assume that the training would be accepted, but not the various exams, so you would have to do some further exams over here. But I haven't dived deep enough into the regulations to be sure.

[S-Works]

It doesn't need TSA, but if I'm correct it assumes you have a FAA license to base that off. I think some people have done seaplane ratings that they've later managed to endorse through CAA and to their JAA and then it's initial training and not an add on, so you would need TSA.

I could be wrong, but this is how I've come to understand it.

You are quite right. I did my FAA Commercial Seaplane at Jack Browns and then added it to my JAA CPL by doing initially the private seaplane exam at Ontrack and then the Commercial exams at Gatwick. All very painless and easy to do. Keeping it current is done by experience by doing the required 12 take off and landings on water. Easily done if you visit Jack Browns every couple of years.

[Local Variation]

If you're in Orlando, get yourself down to OFT and ask them to take you to Spruce Creek. :ok:

[corpus callosum]

If in Miami

Take a trip down to Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport and go to Banyan's a Huge pilot shop with a GII cockpit with Microsoft Flight X on which is cool.

Or

Go to a Flight School and ask to Fly down South Beach one mile off the coast at or below 1000 feet you can get some cool pictures from that. A trip down to the Keys is cool too.

Or

(If they still let you do it) have a flying lesson out of kissimmee or Orlando Executive and ask to do a touch and go at Orlando International.

Corpus

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

Thanks for all the suggestions and recommendations, both on the board and via PM. Sounds like this could be quite an exciting business trip!

I really hadn't thought/considered seaplanes - will seriously consider that. The general sightseeing trip down towards the Keys also sounds fabulous.

I'd already written off recording anything formal in the logbook (I won't be PIC or under a training course), and I'm not sure that a Seaplane rating would really be that much use where I normally fly, so will remain in blissful ignorance of what the procedures are for getting/converting/retaining an FAA PPL on this occasion.

....and as for Caipirinhas... sorry but they're just not the same outside Brazil.

SD

PS: For once, my board name is accurate! It is indeed Sunny today and I am going flying - yippee.:)

[stevelup]

You might as well get your 61.75 certificate. It's only going to cost you £46 (the fee to the UK CAA).

Everyone says it takes months to arrange but I got my fax back from Oklahoma just three days after faxing the request in.

You can include the BFR as part of whatever activity you choose to do whilst out there...

Grab a copy of this (http://www.asa2fly.com/Guide-to-the-Flight-Review-P1372_product1.aspx) before you go.

[youngskywalker]

Get a thirty minute lesson doing aerobatics in a WW2 Texan at Kissimmee. Not that expensive really. Good one for the logbook and they offer you a dvd filmed from the cockpit and wing cams if you want. They also have a P51 and a B25 Mitchell (occasionally) if your wallet can take the hit! ;)

[dont overfil]

The P51 is at Stallion 51 Corp or just google Crazy Horse.
That was about £1800 per hour 8 years ago Too rich for me.
The Texan/snj was about £250 for 40 minutes last year at Warbird adventures. Unfortunately they don't let you do the takeoff and landing anymore.
They are both on the west side of the airfield at Kissimmee off Hoagland Boulevard.
D.O.

[rufus.t.firefly]

You could give Orlando Gateway Aviation a call at Kissimmee (great small friendly operation) , you can have a "Discovery Flight" or two with them in the Piper Sport ( Sport Cruiser ) with an instructor onboard - fly as much as you want during the flying hour(s) . I did it last week - highly recommended - but didn't log the time in my log book in case it mucked up or contradicted my ongoing training in the UK:ugh:

Great fun and sporty :D

[S-Works]

A digression.... But if you were flying with an Instructor as PUT then it can go in your logbook. It might not count towards any training in the UK specifically (although it might) but it is loggable time and will not muck anything up.......

[BackPacker]

Wouldn't it count as the one-hour instruction flight necessary for SEP revalidation by experience? Or does that need to be a JAA instructor specifically?

In any case, yes, I would log it. No question.

[rufus.t.firefly]

The instructor offered to put it in my log book , but as this was a spare of the moment opportunity I didn't take my log book with me .... will next year though :ok:

[S-Works]

Erm..... You can put it in your logbook yourself or cant you write!

It's really very simple to do, pen against paper.:p:rolleyes:

[BackPacker]

If it's PU/T I think under FAA rules the instructor has to countersign. Which is indeed a bit awkward if you didn't bring your logbook in the first place.

[S-Works]

You are confusing the issue a little here with JAA and FAA logging. If flying with an FAA Instructor for raining towards a rating or BFR/IPC etc then the relevant section in the logbook is annotated not the line in the logbook. I have never had a BFR or IPC signed in the log section I have always had the entry at the rear of the book with the specific FAA wording inserted and signed.

If just flying with an Instructor dawdling around the sky then the entry does not need to be signed.

For the purposes of this discussion the time is not being used towards a rating but as it was a training flight will count towards the total hours flown.

[rufus.t.firefly]

Yes I can put pen to paper , but it would be an entry in my log book without instructor counter signature as per the existing entries I have in the UK as a PUT.:ok: thats the only reason why I haven't

[S-Works]

Yes I can put pen to paper , but it would be an entry in my log book without instructor counter signature as per the existing entries I have in the UK as a PUT. thats the only reason why I haven't

You do not need to have those entries countersigned. Trust me, Instructor and Examiner speaking.....

[rufus.t.firefly]

Bose-X , cheers ....... they are going in the book then , thanks:O

[Lurcherman]

I'd second Jack Brown's. Have a blast in their Piper Cub. Do the rating if you really want it but you won't get to use it unless you buy your own aircraft. Don't know anyone that will rent you one. Insurance!!
The Keys are great as well.
Pity you missed Sun & Fun.

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

Just thought I'd let you know what I'd booked and how the process is working out for me. Better than expected in some ways.

I chose Jack Brown's Seaplane - 2 day course/5 hours for Seaplane Rating which can include a BFR for a 61.75 Piggyback FAA PPL license that would allow me to fly (SEP landplanes) in the US on any future trips with less hassle. I wanted to go with a more established/slightly larger company and do something that's not so feasible here in the UK (hence seaplanes). Called them up and booked a slot. They said they are pretty busy at this time of year, but it tails off in June/July/August because of the heat. I got the last place (of 3) for my chosen days, and that was booking 5-6 weeks in advance. Training sessions start early 8:30 first day and I think 7:30 second day, but finish mid afternoon - I guess that's before the thunderstorms break out.

I'm not taking TSA fingerprints and will be getting the usual visa waiver on the plane. Have an ESTA from last year's business trip, which remains valid. This is not an initial PPL issue and the seaplane rating does not require TSA approval or M-1 training visa.

Faxed off the standard forms to FAA and CAA to convert my JAR-PPL to a FAA-PPL - the so-called piggyback licence. Got a receipt posted back from the CAA in about 3 days and faxed "letter of verification" from the Orlando FSDO in 6 working days (bear in mind this was over Easter break too). The letter instructed me to make an appointment at the Orlando FSDO to collect my license, and book at least 2 weeks ahead.

After calling Jack Browns, it turns out they are a designated foreign pilot center and their resident examiner can issue the FAA PPL without me needing to go to the FSDO. I just need to ensure I have all the paperwork in order and am proficient enough to pass the BFR (Biennial Flight Review) which can be an integral part of the seaplane rating course. This will entitle me to rent/fly SEP aircraft in the US on future trips. My JAR-PPL still has 4 years to go and I don't plan to move house, so this seems worthwhile to do for little extra cost.

What this means for others is that if you wanted to get a piggyback licence on the back of a business trip to the US (like me), it can be done at shorter notice than the 45 days (to get the letter issued) + 2 weeks (booking appointment ahead at the FSDO) timeframe indicated by the FAA provided that you (a) Fax the documents and request fax back for letter of verification and (b) go directly to a foreign pilot center with a resident examiner - although there are no guarantees or commitments that the short turnaround on the letter can be achieved every time. This may be a useful option for those who could add a day or so on to a business trip, but like me, have ad-hoc trips arranged only a week or so ahead.

I've also done a bit of research on whether the US FAA Seaplane Rating that I should get can be transferred back to my JAR-PPL licence. It seems that the requirements in LASORS 2010 are:
- 5 hours dual instruction on seaplanes (ie the course i plan to do)
- 1 solo takeoff and landing (could be just a single circuit but will be extra from the standard course)
- Seaplane theory exam (however, I am a RYA Yachtmaster so am excused that requirement)

My understanding is therefore that if I do this one additional solo takeoff/landing, I could transfer the seaplane rating back to the JAR PPL with a bit of paperwork.

Whether that would be of any practical use is highly debatable of course, but I like to check out all the options in advance.

Thanks for the recommendations earlier and I'll let you know how I get on.

I do plan to read up the FAA differences and "How to pass your flight review" suggested by Stevelup earlier in this thread. Any other suggestions, caveats or comments welcome! I look forward to finding out how aviation works on the other side of the pond.

SD

[matkey]

Just got back from Florida a couple weeks ago. If you get chance to get down to the Keys then have a look at Aircraft Floats ultra light pontoon floats from Highside Ultralights Key West EP Dalton keywestfloats.com north carolina web design asheville (http://www.keywestfloats.com) $200 for an hours flight in a floatplane ultralight most of it hands on. Great fun flying 200ft over the Keys seeing sharks/turtles in the water below you.
If you want to see some gators, then I can recomment Tours in the Glades (http://www.toursintheglades.com) who are in Florida City. Lets just say we had to poke a gator with a canoe to get him to move out the way!

[stevelup]

You can borrow the book if you like.

Steve

[mary meagher]

That's because it is not much practical use anywhere else except Alaska to have a seaplane rating in the modern world.

They won't let you solo in Jack's seaplanes, if you earn a rating, which I did a few years back, go buy your own!

They take a lot of beating, those floats, on the water, you have to haul it out every day, pump it out (read Sir Francis Chichester's book and the troubles he had with water leaking into his floats!). If you think maintaining an aircraft in Europe is costing big moola, try maintaining anything that goes near salt water.......! and I bet they don't often let you land on lakes in the UK!

BUT, not withstanding, go for it. It is such a giggle. Doing that glassy water approach over the aligators basking on the shoreline. And in Florida, any lake NOT SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED, is open for landing (watering).
However, whatever is on or in the water has the right of way over the airplane, boats, swimmers, manatees, etc etc etc. Because they have no way of knowing what your requirements are.

I was specially privileged one time to have a moonlight ride from a Louisiana Bayou on a Cessna 180 with floats - the pilot ran a business restocking offshore oil rigs. That was another story. Don't have to worry about weight and balance, just keep on roaring down the bayou until you have burnt enough fuel to get light enough for takeoff! Nine mile runway.

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

If this isn't on your "list of 100 things to do before you die" then it should be. Absolutely amazing experience which probably hasn't changed in decades.

No radio, starter motor, DI, AI, GPS, DME, VOR ....
No QFE, QNH or Booking out with air traffic control

Just a stick, rudder and throttle. You can see the altimeter, rev counter (and sometimes the airspeed indicator) over your instructors shoulder. But it's all done by feel and the seat of your pants.

We never went above 500 feet (ok with my height keeping make that 600), and standard landings were all power off glide approaches. Instruction was outstanding (there is an intercom so you can ask/be told what to do) - it's uncanny how the instructor knows where you are looking/focussing at even when sitting in front of you.

Paperwork was as researched - Jack Browns is one if the few designated foreign pilot DPE's and can issue a 61.75 on the basis of my UK licence/medical+ letter of verification and then either provide a BFR or full Seaplane rating to make it current. This is all done online using the FAA's IACRA system while you wait - no need to visit the FSDO office.

My understanding is that no separate FAA medical is required.

The 61.75 licence will expire if I move house or when my current JAR licence expires in 4 years time. The current proposals to change FAA licences to have photo-id are not yet law and should include a 5 year transition time for PPL's so won't affect me.

But for now I have a current and valid FAA PPL for the next two years. Unlike the UK, my temporary airman's certificate could be used until the permanent certificate is issued from Oklahoma in a couple of months. Should come in handy for whenever/whatever the next trip to the US crops up.

An experience I won't forget for a long time - thanks for the advice and suggestions, and perhaps I'll get around to some of the other options another time.

A great big Thank You to the outstanding and professional team at Jack Brown's Seaplanes who transformed another standard business trip into something truly memorable.