question for any pilots flying into Heathrow EGLL over last couple of days

[EGLD]

Hi

I live quite near Heathrow, and am quite a keen aviation enthusiast.

I know that they have 2 parallell runways 27/9 L and R, as well as a much shorter 23/5 runway. I am led to believe that this runway does not have a landing system, and is rarely used.

It has been in use a lot this week for arriving aircraft, due to very strong winds that have been blowing right across the airport, I believe in a northerly direction. We've had severe gales up and down the country, with the Heathrow area not being too badly hit, but I would estimate the winds have been blowing up to 20-30 knots

What I'd like to know is whether or not the wind is the reason this runway is in use, what they'd do if they didnt have this runway i.e. are those kinds of winds within any landing restrictions, and I'd really like to know how much harder it is to land on a runway with no ILS, particularly in driving wind and rain, and at nighttime with quite low visibility. Do you just get to a certain distance/height/speed from the airport, and then begin a certain descent speed? do you use visual indicators next to the runway to judge your height? is there any automation used? autothrottle and such? are go-arounds much more common?

any other experiences/stories/info greatfully received

[Long Range Cruise]

Hello, good to see someone showing an interest into heathrow ops. Most people dont even realise the planes landing in a completely different direction. Anyhow, remembering as many questions you asked as i can, i'll give it a go...

The approach to runway 23 has a set of lights at the end of the runway which guides the pilot flying down to the runway. If you have visited the information/visitor center at heathrow, you may well have noticed the red and green light system in the corner of the building. Well if you take that principle into account, you can see how the direction of the planes nose is guided with reference to the lights. It is called AGNIS - Automatic Guidance Nose-In System...and there are some different types of these light systems to guide the pilot into land. VASI - Visual Approach Slope Indicator, and PAPI - precision Approach Path Indicator. Runway 23 has not got ILS capability.

Go-arounds ARE more common, but that is because the pilot wants to be fully lined up and prepared for landing much more than he does on an ILS, that is NOT to say that less care is taken with ILS! Go-Arounds are primarily the pilots decision, but if an occurance beyond the pilots visual range happens, he will be told to Go-Around by control tower. It is a shared responsibilty.

The pilots, after holding, are told to contact a director. The director is the controller who guides the pilot tracking from the hold to the ILS intercept. When on 23, i believe they have TWO active directors, although someone will have to clarify this. One on 120.400Mhz and another on 134.92Mhz.(or 97? - lol) (remove if i am not allowed to display these freqs!!) The director would usually pass the pilot to the control tower between 10 and 7 miles or so, (well thats been my range)down the ILS from the airfield. During the 23 operation, the controllers assist more in desent profiling and approach profiling, such as sometimes advising the pilot to lower gear, or to call for visual reference of the runway.

Auto capabilities...I prefere to use manual throttle, although TOGA is armed. SOP's vary airline to airline so cannot speak too much about this.

I think that is your questions asked, and you may wish to follow the thread i introduced in the Questions sections about safety on the 23 approach. We'll see how that thread goes.

[Long Range Cruise]

Also, as i see you an a flight simmer, try the visual to 23 in the following detail...

runway...23, vis...3miles, wind...210/27 gusts to 37, night time, and use little scenery so you can focus more on flying and not sight seeing...

Set yourself up in good weather with the slew function, otherwsie you will not have any idea where the runway is! Start around 3,000feet. Tuning into 27R ILS is good if you want assistance(realistic only in flight sim i would like to add) for the glide because the glideslope is useful until you become visual and follow the VASI/PAPI lights to the left of runway 23.

(I would like to add, i enjoy flight sim just as much as any big kid)... :) :)

[???pax]

LRC (or anyone),

Is there any approach profile data stored in the FMC database which can be used in the event of a non-ILS approach? I think what I mean is can the data from an approach plate be translated and stored in the FMC and then linked to the flight director to "provide guidance" on the approach??

[Warped Factor]

Runway 23 comes into use when the mean crosswind component on the main runways exceeds 25 knots.

No ILS available so aproaches will be, depending on certain cloud/vis limits, either radar vectored to a visual approach. Or radar vectored to a surveillance radar approach terminating at 2nm from touchdown.

An SRA is a ground controlled approach, the controller passing heading information to keep the a/c on the extended centreline and the altitude the a/c should be at as it passes each mile point on the approach. The aim being to get the aircraft in a position that it can land from when it hopefully goes visual by 2nm final at the latest. Reasonably high workload on both ends of the microphone I suspect.

In the way of lights there are approach lights, PAPI's and lead in strobes.

If Heathrow didn't have 23 available in such strong wind conditions, then I suspect there would be a lot more diversions to airfields such as Stansted.

WF.

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Warped Factor ]</p>

[EGLD]

Hi Long Range Cruise !

Many thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions, your answers are very informative. I also note from your profile that you fly the A340 which must be incredible. I was lucky enough to be taken by a client to Sun City in South Africa in March 2000 (I think) for a 4 day golf excursion and we flew on a Virgin A430, and I was incredibly inpressed with the aircraft, both the comfort of the interior, and the amazingly quiet ride. The Captain explained how some passengers may feel the takeoff run is quite long, and that this would be exaggerated on the return flight out of Jo'burg due to its altitude. I'm glad he did, as I thought we'd end up in the car park, the takeoff took that long on the way back !! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I also caught the long thread below about Rwy 23 at Heathrow (not your new thread) just after posting - d'oh !

I look forward to re-creating that approach on FS2002, you may or may not have seen a screenshot posted over at airdisaster.com in their forums showing an approach to the (now closed?) 05 end of runway 23, which highlights why the runway takes so long to prepare, as the 'runoff' is used for parking, or at least the parking at that end is very close to safety margins.

Many thanks again for your time.

Cheers!

[Warped Factor]

EGLD,

The other end of 23, the old runway 05, closed in the early 90's when they built the "Whiskey" parking stands by what used to be the 05 threshold.

WF.

[scanscanscan]

I wonder if any pilot prior to his first landing into Heathrow has ever been required to demonstrate a RW 23approach useing RW27 out of limits wind speeds. on his sim check? . .Or indeed a 23/Sar approach to minima followed by a low fuel diversion which finds extended holding or a blocked runway at Stanstead?. .Thus requiring him to find another southerly uk runway, within limits?. .Maybe,......After the monumental cock up that an accident on 23 will cause in such winds followed by a full up or unusable Stanstead.. .High speed Southerly winds which put the LHR 27 runways outa limits, have immediate dangerous implications for arrival aircraft safety if 23 goes blocked and of course it will one day.

So maybe with strong southerly winds at LHR all pilots should review the runway 23 approach plate lights, fmc data base and field performance, and consider if a diversion other than Stanstead within limits is in order?. .Dispatchers always plan ahead and protect their pilots so could they please comment on which diversion from LHR in the uk they use with very strong southerlies. Did you all say STN? . .As they say in Norfolk,... "Could get a bit tight tonite!"

[Long Range Cruise]

No...none of that for me! According to your profile you seem pretty experienced...has this happened to you? I would like to add that due to the sophisticated computers on the airbus and boeing AND the efficient pre-landing lists and calcs performed by the crew, such a problem. May be in dream land, but if the pilot is not satisfied, i in particular would immediately go to Stanstead/gatwick, or else where and not have to worry about using fuel on desent and circle to land.

On the other hand, will speak to some colleagues and bring your post up, and post some replies when i get round to it.

[52049er]

Strong southerlies? Come to Brum (15-33). Its the only time we get headwinds <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> We do of course also have the benefit of a nice turbulent approach as Westerlies roll nicely over the city.

[Dan Winterland]

Lack of ILS on 23 is not normally a problem as the sort of weather that requires the use of 23 doesn't tend to have particularly low cloud bases or poor vis associated with it.

With regards to glideslope info, most modern FMS equipped aircraft can have a vertical profile buit in to the kit for guidance, if not you have to remember your 3 times table.

23 is shorter than most runways, but as it is only used with a reasonable headwind, this doesn't cause a problem. My compnay's Ops Man requires the Captain to make any approach and landing on 23.

[snooky]

Scanscanscan

The only time that any danger arises is when too little fuel is carried in these circumstances.

I always carry plenty and retain plenty when 23 is or may be in use, though I have been aghast to see on taking over aircraft that some others operate down to normal fuel levels in these circumstances. I can only assume that they have a great concern about their position in the fuel league tables.