UAE National Bonds

[diplomat-not]

National Bonds (http://www.nationalbonds.ae)

Hi,

has anybody taken a look at what is 'offered on the table'???

or is it another of those scams? would be interesting to see how it works out & if ever one can redeem ALL the money....

what are your thoughts about this?

[Wizofoz]

What dividend are they advertising?

They have always met bond payments in the past. About the only Government to even SUGGEST reneging on bond payments in the last few years has been Germany.

[BYMONEK]

sittingidly

Quote; 'EK sends out a change to our contract on a weekly basis......' Really?

Tell me, do you have to work hard acting like a complete cock on these forums or does it come naturaly to you?

[Wizofoz]

Sitting,

Angela Merkel lobbies for bondholders to share pain of EU bailouts | Business | The Observer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/28/angela-merkel-eurozone-bailouts-bondholders)

Took .03 secs with google.

Which aspects of your CONTRACT with EK have been changed?

[ferris]

They have always met bond payments in the past. When you say "they", who do you mean?

Any prospectives should look carefully at the ownership of the company issuing this product. They are not "national" bonds- that is just a name. The bond issuer is owned by Investment Corporation of Dubai.

[Schibulsky]

Sorry Wiz, can't find anything about "reneging on bonds" in that article, she was just talking about reorganization of debts and negotiating longer loan times...for the bonds of almost bankrupt states like Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Belgium and Portugal.
Probably because Germany carries the main financial burden of all the recent bailouts in the EU!

Maybe you take another 0.3 secs and google "Dubai defaults on debts":}
And where will you go in case the UAE does not honor its bonds....to the UAE courts? :E

The CONTRACT is just a worthless piece of paper that can be/has been "adjusted" to any extend by any other regulations... :D

[Wizofoz]

Schib,

Yes, but bond financing is supposed to be immune from renegotiation- bond holders are supposed to be first in line as creditors and automatically entitled to the full value of the arrangement before anyone else gets paid. That's why Merkel even suggesting it caused such a ripple in the financial world.

I've done exactly as you suggested and cannot find anywhere that the Dubai Government has defaulted on Bonds- it looked like it might have to, but the Abu Dhabi bail-out saved them.

They have certainly restructured and indeed written off large amounts of debt- but I can't find any record of them defaulting on a bond.

I don't claim anything like expert status in this, so if I'm wrong, please help me out and point me to a bond default- or even restructuring- by Dubai, and I'll happily stand corrected.

As to the contract, it is a very specific document that covers most aspects of our T&Cs. Nothing in it has been changed since I've been here except in our favour. The one contractual obligation EK has threatened to break is DEWA. I am still not aware of anyone actually being charged for it, though individuals have been contacted and told they will. If any money has been take, that is a clear breach.

Other changes to our conditions (most notably Productivity pay) have been adjusted down and meant we work more for less. I'm not happy about that, think it was border line justified two years ago, isn't now and should be changed, but I don't think it will-BUT it did NOT form part of our contract.

[Schibulsky]

O.K. On one hand we have the EU where Merkel just "suggests" a new approach..on the other hand the UAE where in Nov.09 Dubai Inc. in fact asked for a standstill on the debts payment which was later avoided by the AUH bailout.

The contract explicitly states that "other regulations" are part of it and they have the liberty to change these at will. In civilized countries, changes to these T&C's have to be negotiated...not at EK!
So unilaterally "adjusting" productivity pay (justified or not) would be a breach of contract elsewhere.

The main thing about the bonds and the contract...there is no law that is properly enforced in the UAE to protect investors and employees!
Just think about all the investors in Dubai real estate who lost their money...to companies linked to the royal family or owned by the Dubai government.

Just the idea of somebody trying to sue a Dubai owned company in a UAE court would be a good stand up comedy topic...:p
Honestly Wiz, would you buy these bonds? :E

[777boyindubai]

If you need to ask the question, then perhaps you already know the answer. I don't think many of us trust institutions here. I have two cases in court against property companies. They default but the court does nothing. I would strongly advise against buying any financial products here. The banks make everyone sign security cheques.....BLANK security cheques. Perhaps you could ask National Bonds if they would do the same for you? I don't think so.....

[Wizofoz]

Schib,

Lots of people lost lots of money in lots of investments world wide.

Lehmans and Madof both operated in one of those civilized countries you mentioned!

Investment is risk v reward and there are never any guarantees, so you asses the return and make a decision.

Me? No I wouldn't- Not a hard decision as I don't have any money! If i did I'd look at it, but there are lots of potential investments out there, so I don't know if it would stack up or not.

Remember, people who sold at the right time made a lot of money here.

People who didn't lost money EVERYWHERE.

[Schibulsky]

Wiz, I was not talking about investing in general. :=
Anyway, people believing in 50+% profit a year should see a shrink rather than an investment banker.
But the post of 777boy shows how much help you'll get from the UAE courts...and that's after being screwed by a scam with the help and advertising of Dubai's government...:D
Expect the same on a labour dispute. :E

[Wizofoz]

I may have got that wrong but that is what your post was meant to suggest?

I can see how that's what it seemed like, sittingly. To be honest I was unclear on the details, but knew it was Merkel suggesting that bond-holders "Share the pain", something that is anathema in finance, as bonds return modest vouchers in return for near cast-iron security.

[BYMONEK]

sittingidly

If you're really trying to help people as you claim, why don't you stick to facts instead of your usual emotional diatribe and constant whinging. You sound like a stuck record on these forums and offer nothing of value. I have read not one single positive comment from you regarding your current employer so you posts can hardly be described as unbiased........can they?

It was wrong to call you what I did. Perhaps a prepuce would have been more appropriate.

[Alconguin Crusader]

4 items in my "contract" are not being honored.
They will not fly me home to my place of residence. They did for the first two years I was here then reneigned.
They will not pay for gas, electricity, and water. That is capped somewhere around 27,000 dhs even though the "contract" says they will pay for all of it.
They do not give a 3% contractual pay raise each and every year.
And we will witness this in the next few weeks but they do not give 25% of the profits above target back to the employees.

Some pilots do drinnk the company Kool-Aid because they have no where else to go and most pilots at Emirates this is the best job they ever had or ever will have. But most are just pu$$ies.

Think long and hard about coming to the sand. They will screw you. It is funny that they expect everyone else to honor their contracts but they can do whatever they want to ours. Life in the sand, Arab style.

[BYMONEK]

Alconguin Crusader

You must have a different contract to most of us then.

Firstly, nothing in my contract mentions an increment. I agree that it's disgraceful we haven't had one for the last two years, but a 'contractual' item it is not. EK does not even publish the pay scales anymore.

Secondly, despite there being a 'cap' placed on utilities, not one person in Company accommodation has had to pay a single dirham towards their utilities. So, unless I'm sadly mistaken, EK does still pay for gas, electricity and water.

As for the last point, how can you say that they have broken your contract over profit share when nothings been announced yet. That's the sort of rubbish sittingidly would come out with.

The only part of your post which I agree with you on is the first. Assuming it's your ALT to which you refer, yes, it's piss poor that the destination has been changed. That's extra costs for you and when the Company makes such large profits each year, it's no wonder it sticks in your throat.

Come to think of it, I actually agree with something else. You're right, it is the best flying job I have had, at least in terms of destinations, aircraft, salary and overall package. And, unless a miracle occurs, is likely to remain that way until I retire. As it will for several thousand other satisfied pilots no doubt.

The ultimate problem for most of the usual whingers, if they're totally honest, is that many have difficulty in differentiating between EK as a Company and life in Dubai. Failed marriages, poor investments, currency fluctuations, and so it goes on. For those of us without these burdens, Emirates is good because, generally, life is good. It's got bugger all to do with Kool Aid.

What really baffles me, however, is that if you really do believe we drink that stuff to make us happy, why don't you?

[CFM-56NG]

" You're right, it is the best flying job I have had, at least in terms of destinations, aircraft, salary and overall package. And, unless a miracle occurs, is likely to remain that way until I retire."

one thing....either his Pakistani or iraqi... hum now maybe libyan.....:} (just a joke)
and by the way you are the first person i see here that says that you contract has been even "almost" honored
and yes if you fit this qualifications, this is probably will be the best job you Will have and retire from... which its OK its not that bad of a job at all.
but if you came from a civilized country were the employers truly meet with their word, otherwise its a lawsuit, than you would understand why this fellow's are SO pissed off....
if you don't know that please do your self a favor since your life is already a dream ..... let the orders try to improve their life too.... and keep quite...
even I don't agree with a lot of stuff written here but i don't attack people like that just because you have a different view of things .....:=

[heloguy412]

To get back to the original thread title, is there a general consensus on the bonds or are they a waste of time. They have to have a better return than what I can get in North America but I couldn't find anything on that on the website.

[crazypilot]

@ heloguy412, I put a small amount into National Bonds in 2009. Interest (or profit as they call it here) was around 6% for 2009 and 3.78% for 2010. So not really too different to what we get on our savings accounts here (I use HSBC and their online "eSaver" is around 3% pa).

On top of that, National Bonds give out prizes each month, apparently the top prize is 1m AED. I've won 100 AED once since Jan 09; So I haven't been able stop working yet.

A friend had money in National Bonds also and wanted to take it out...he didn't have any problems or delays at all - they sent him a cheque for the full amount invested quite soon after, so I'm not too concerned about that. But then again this is the UAE...things can change overnight.

Hope this helps.
CP

[break dancer]

I find them to be good, money goes in at any ForEx bureau, and comes out instantaneously if you go thru Emirates Islamic Bank. Have only won Dhs100 once as well, but returns are way better than in a current account. As has been posted, still only a piece of paper and the inheritance laws can get pretty screwed up even with a will (which by the way won't be recognised....) Still waiting for the million