why my instructor made a big deal of taking a photo at the runway?

[su2114]

hello..

i fly gliders...
and 3 days ago i was taking a photo with my friend at the threshold area of the runway after my instructor took off with another student ...
my instructor refused to fly with me that day and taxied to the hanger because he saw us while approaching standing on the runway

the airport is small with very light traffic and it is an unpowered glider plane......

I know what i did was wrong but is it that big deal????:confused::confused:

[Adios]

You've answered your own question already, but an unpowered plane will smack you just as dead as a powered one if it hits you at 60 knots. Due to the lack of engine noise, you're much less likely to hear it coming though. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Poltergeist]

Agreed Adios, but safety is about education and not letting you play with the trainset because you have erred does I would suggest, ask questions also of the instructor. Maybe instructing on safety may have been a better idea?
If taxying to hanger and packing up is the answer, how will that encourage 'just' culture open reporting in safety matters?

[RatherBeFlying]

A number of photogs have been killed on or near airfields -- some by props during low flying; some decapitated by glider wings. I have not heard specifically of anybody killed by a tow rope or cable.

Even worse many photogs put themselves in danger without arrangement beforehand with the pilot:eek:

It is something to discover a photog maybe 20' before the threshold, fortunately in a ditch. Remember your carb heat. it would not do to have your engine cough and award the photog a Darwin.

In Yellowstone, people regularly walk right up to bison to get a good picture -- and get killed.

[Maoraigh1]

40+ years ago I waved the baton for a winch launch, a dual instruction flight in a T31b, while wondering if an instructor, taking a photograph, was in a safe place. As he was an instructor, I assumed he was O.K.
The wing hit him on the forehead, (fortunately between wing ribs)
He survived, with no permanant damage, but it was several days later before he was fully aware of what was going on.

[Piltdown Man]

Change clubs, change instructor? You don't want to be at this place. Your instructor sounds like a complete knob. This is childish behaviour and besides, you are member who is entitled to instruction and the use of the club's amenities. If you had done something wrong, a sensible, mature person would have let you known the error of your ways, get you buy into the resolution and check some time in the future, if necessary, that the lesson had been learnt. And left it at that. That was not done.

PM

But I'd probably react in another immature way and **** the git behind bikeshed, so to speak.

[Zulu Alpha]

One of the problems with people on the ground when landing is that the pilot cannot be sure whether they have seen him and what they are going to do.

We have walkers near our strip and if they are walking on the edge of the strip you never know whether they are going to cross. Some have dogs and children and these are even more unpredictable.

So think of the pilot, coming in to land and having the extra distraction of wondering whether the person at the threshold is going to move or not. He might even not be able to tell who it is, so won't know if they are "sensible" or "stupid".

I suspect this is even more a problem for gliders.

[Sallyann1234]

I think the instructor was right. Immediately after such an incident the chances are that one or both of you would not be in the right frame of mind for instruction and learning. Much better to let you both calm down and start fresh another day.
Also there may have been other factors - but I won't speculate here.

[KKoran]

PM,

If you had done something wrong, a sensible, mature person would have let you known the error of your ways, get you buy into the resolution and check some time in the future, if necessary, that the lesson had been learnt.

You're acting like he was grounded for a month. His instructor didn't fly with him that day. Seems to me a reasonable way for his instructor to impress upon the student the seriousness of the issue (though, based on the student's post here, I don't think it did the trick).
I know what i did was wrong but is it that big deal????

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I think the instructor was right. Immediately after such an incident the chances are that one or both of you would not be in the right frame of mind for instruction and learning. Much better to let you both calm down and start fresh another day.
That's what I thought - anyone who's feeling even a bit wound up shouldn't go flying.

Instructors will know that. Students should learn it.

There are those who respond to pretty well every thread here with "find a different instructor". Sometimes this is not the right answer.

[jxc]

I Agree with Zulu Alpha but maybe that is as I from East Anglia as well

But I feel the instructor was well over the top just an explanation would probably have done and if the student was 100% sure if he/she was wrong they probably do now from posting on here

[thing]

I believe they stopped competition finishes after a photog was decapitated, they aren't allowed at my club anyway. I take it you are a fairly new pilot as the sort of thing you did should be covered in safety briefs etc. By the way, how did he taxi back to the hangar in a glider?

[FlyingKiwi_73]

You can taxi a glider it just takes a little finess! it was frowned apon a bit if students did it, but a few of my instructors did this to speed up recovery and getting back to the winch line. its all about energy management, not landing long and how far down the feild the 'Van' is.:ok:
Wouldn't chance my luck with the hanger tho....

I have been on finals and watched a 'visitor' to the club wlak across the active grass runway beck to the club house proper (loo break) i closed the air brakes and sailed happily over his head. no damage done as i had the room, it meant a long rertreval of course. I doubt the bloke saw me until i was on top of him. by the time i was back at the van the launch co-ordinator was alreay tearing strips of the chap.. i left him to it.

Nobody should be anywhere near an active runway (unless you have permission and know what you are doing,.. i.e where to look)

[B4aeros]

Nobody should be anywhere near an active runway (unless you have permission and know what you are doing,.. i.e where to look) Absolutely right of course, but
tearing strips of the chap..is inappropriate.

Education is so much more effective than punishment. GA needs top recognise that it is a leisure industry & should stop treating newcomers as six year old children.

Without knowing the OP or his airfield, it's hard to judge the severity of the incident, but the fact that he's here asking questions suggests that the lesson has not been learned.

Not an effective instructor.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

is inappropriate.
Education is so much more effective than punishment. GA needs top recognise that it is a leisure industry & should stop treating newcomers as six year old children.



Not as an excuse more explination, said controller was a arther un-apologetic aussie Ag pilot... a spades a spade etc. and he was explaining (in an animated fashion) to said pedestrian how close he came to a quiet whistling death.

[High-Flyer2]

"Without knowing the OP or his airfield, it's hard to judge the severity of the incident, but the fact that he's here asking questions suggests that the lesson has not been learned."


I wouldn't say that its the case of lesson not learned, if said instructor was ranting on and took the kind of "huffy" approach well then maybe nothing has been explained, yes its been recognised that wrong has been done but not explained to the full extent and reasons why, everyones got to learn at some point and some of us learn the hard way as been shown here :ok:

Paul

[Plasmech]

OP: Where *exactly* were you standing?

[ProfChrisReed]

To me the problem lies in the OP's closing words:

I know what i did was wrong but is it that big deal????:confused::confused:

Scenario: early solo pilot is on approach and sees another student taking picture while standing on the runway threshold. Thinks, "They'll move in a moment." They don't move. Student pilot freezes for a few seconds wondering what to do. At the last moment self-preservation takes over, pulls up and stalls in from 50 ft. Dead or injured student pilot, destroyed aircraft.

Someone at my club who couldn't see the potentially big deal probably wouldn't be flying for a while.

Of course, this could just be a case of an instructor losing it after a long day, but the OP's attitude worries me.

[Piltdown Man]

There are a few issues here which need some illumination. Firstly, let's look at the most critical issue, the one of safety. I don't where su2114 was standing, but wherever he was standing he was noticed. But we don't even know if he was doing anything wrong because nobody spoke to him. What a safety system. Are we using telepathy as a form of instruction now? Yup, people standing in the "wrong place" can be a pain. But gliders have controls and if the hazard is stationary or at least moving in a predictable fashion, it should be avoidable. So seeing this, the job of the instructor is to educate, not throw their toys out of the cot. Which brings me onto the second point. In the civilian club world, club instructors should be stable, balanced people who are also of capable helping a person seeing the error of their ways. Their job is to lead by inspiration and example. But this guy is sadly lacking in these two departments (maybe amongst others). It makes you wonder what sort of instructor they are as well. And this sort of childish behaviour appears not to be limited just to this club, as another poster has wrote:
...the launch co-ordinator was alreay tearing strips of the chap
If they were allowed to use corporal punishment, would he have hit him with big stick as well? Just what gets into people at gliding/flying clubs?

Much better to let you both calm down and start fresh another day.
To a point I agree but what is there to get so wound up about? It's not the army or the airforce. This is flying, not fighting. This is done for fun and enjoyment. Don't lose focus. Yes, every now and again something abnormal occurs. So as an instructor, your job is to sort it out. As the meerkat says, "Simple Peeps!"

Next, this is a club. As a member you pay to use the club's facilities. Who is an instructor to deny a member the use of their own facilities?

You have to be kidding me...
...early solo pilot is on approach and sees another student taking picture while standing on the runway threshold.
So early solo pilot closes airbrakes and misses obstruction and lands further down the airfield. If this action/technique has not been taught, early solo pilot's instructor hasn't done their job. And if they can't manage that, early solo pilot shouldn't be solo. Such a manoeuvre is standard aviation practice, especially in a glider.

Regarding competition finishes:
they aren't allowed at my club anyway.
I hated going to competitions where those who flew from clubs who banned anything which could be considered fun (like formation flying, aeros, beat-ups, low level hill soaring/racing, cloud flying, mountain flying etc.) had their first taste of adventure. How they managed not to kill themselves I'll never know, but it was "interesting" to see how close they could get to stoofing in but not actually do so. Like all types of manoeuvre, this one should be taught and practiced at the appropriate time and in the appropriate place.

I fly for a living and we aren't that serious. If someone does something out of the ordinary or you have any sort of problem, you deal with it. You don't go around shouting at people. If it's a safety problem, you try and discuss it (and do the inevitable paperwork) to stop the problem from reoccurring immediately. But what we do is enjoy ourselves at work whilst getting the job done to the very best of our abilities. But if I went gliding on my days off I'd hope and fully expect to have even more fun and enjoyment. I'm sure I'd get things wrong and I'd hope that I was treated with respect and that my errors were explained. Not doing so would do neither of us any favours and would do nothing for safety, which is where we started isn't it?

PM

Who used to go gliding (1,200hrs or so and a few diamonds) at the LGC many years ago. Has one less landing than take off and who also used to instruct. Quite badly at times, but I learnt eventually. I just wish I had the time to do some now.

[astir 8]

An alternative scenario:- an early solo pilot has screwed up and is low, slow and already has the airbrakes shut on the approach.

The pilot sees someone standing on or near the landing area and doesn't know whether the said person has even seen the approaching glider, or what he is going to do (duck or move and in what direction).

It's very very dangerous for both parties - the pilot could try turning or stretching an already overstretched glide even further with nasty results.

Alternatively he hits the spectator who is looking through his camera viewfinder and failed to appreciate how close the glider is.

Having people standing around the undershoot area on any airfield and especially a glider site is totally unacceptable.

And has Mr SU2112 (the original complainant) any previous form for stupidity for which he has already been reprimanded - and the reprimands have simply bounced off? The statement "I know what I did was wrong, but what was the big deal" seems a bit telling.

Or maybe the instructor had just been having a crap day, with his wife bitching about his having to go and instruct yet again - and all unpaid and voluntary.

I would really like to hear the instructor's version of this story before criticising.

[DX Wombat]

Who is an instructor to deny a member the use of their own facilities?

He didn't. He refused to fly with him, he didn't stop him from flying with someone else.
Anyone can be banned on grounds of safety and a FI would be expected to know when the bounds for their particular club had been exceeded and to take the required action. As somebody else has said, we have only the original poster's version of events so without the FI's, or an independent witness' account of events we cannot guess the true seriousness of the matter. We also have no idea of the ensuing conversation after which the FI refused to fly with the poster. Maybe the poster's attitude made a large contrribution to the decision. Would you want to fly with someone who you felt had endangered both you and himself and then became all self-righteous and stroppy with you? I wouldn't. I'm not saying that is what happened, I simply don't know if it did, none of us does, we simply do not have the facts.

[Flyingmac]

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Hampshire | Glider crash killed photographer (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6937499.stm)

[Piltdown Man]

I don't think I've ever suggested that standing in the undershoot is a sensible thing to do. The chances of being "collected" and the distraction you cause are all reasons for not being there. But we entered this thread with a post from someone who was unsure if they had done anything wrong and none of us are any wiser because of the poor attitude of the instructor. And please, let's not have anymore ridiculous scenarios regarding student pilots. The undershoot of any runway is generally not the best place to be.

And while we are here, only with one or two exceptions have I ever seen a glider airbrakes shut that didn't have enough energy to miss a person, even a nasty glider like an Astir can be made to hop over person. The exceptions were gliders in competition finishes which had been "luckily" judged to the inch. The problems with early solo standard pupils, excluding poor SA, are generally due to having far too much energy or a poor appreciation of the performance and control they actually have.

Would you want to fly with someone who you felt had endangered both you and himself and then became all self-righteous and stroppy with you?
Who said anything about anybody being self-righteous and stroppy? Someone is making things up. And yes, I'll happily flying with anyone, even people who really annoy me but especially those who need instruction. Because that's what instructors do. What they shouldn't do is go flying when they are having problems at home.

Which brings me on to a larger point. Gliding clubs often have drives for new members and most spend an inordinate amount of time and resource in marketing themselves. All of this effort is wasted if the new members are chased off by childish instructors - which I have seen far too often.

My comment regarding competition finishes was made so that a pointless death like that of Neil Lawson could be prevented without detracting from the sport. Safe flying is all about risk management but a total prohibition on certain manoeuvres and aspects of gliding will do nothing to improve overall safety.

PM

[DX Wombat]

Who said anything about anybody being self-righteous and stroppy? Someone is making things up.
Somebody needs to read posts properly. :* :rolleyes:Maybe the poster's attitude made a large contribution to the decision. Would you want to fly with someone who you felt had endangered both you and himself and then became all self-righteous and stroppy with you? I wouldn't. I'm not saying that is what happened, I simply don't know if it did, none of us does, we simply do not have the facts.

[astir 8]

The opening post ended

"I know what I did was wrong, but is it that big deal?" (sic)


IMHO risking getting yourself killed, or worse risking causing someone else to get killed IS a big deal.

And if the poster used that kind of phrase to the instructor at the time, I'm not at all surprised if fuses were blown.

[DX Wombat]

I wonder, just wonder, if he posted here in the hope that we would all say "There, there, take no notice of the nasty instructor, he doesn't know what he's talking about, of course it wasn't a big deal." and that he could then turn round to the FI and say "Look at what everyone has written on PPRuNe." If he was, then his hopes will most certainly have been dashed - and quite right too.

[WelshHopper]

Got to be honest, I was thinking the same as DX Wombat, or possibly more along the lines of, he didn't have anything better to do than see how many responses he could get from a wind up post!

Just one little thing I would add though, surely there was a CFI or a Duty Instructor type at the club involved, why did they not notice someone stood in the undershoot? After all it is dangerous to the fool who stands there, and the poor person flying the a/c. So there should be some form of supervision on the ground as well.

WH :ok:

[Piltdown Man]

And now because he has posted, he'll understand that not only is undershoot a bad place to be but also that he should expect more of his instructor. He'll also see that the there are lots of "safety police" who enjoy punishment (S&M maybe?) and other people who are quite laid back. All in all, the OP probably got more than he bargained for.

PM

[astir 8]

S&M?

Nah its just modern yoof innit? Can't take a hot crumpet from behind without blubbing.


Remember men - always treat your kite like your girlfriend!:ok:

[mur007]

My comment regarding competition finishes was made so that a pointless death like that of Neil Lawson could be prevented without detracting from the sport. Safe flying is all about risk management but a total prohibition on certain manoeuvres and aspects of gliding will do nothing to improve overall safety.The link above mentions that Mr Lawson narrowly avoided being hit doing something similar the day before he was killed. Some people (and I would include the OP in this judging by the tone of the question) just won't get it until something drastic occurs ie the instructor walking off. If the instructor had not walked off, would the OP have come on here and asked? Probably not. If the instructor had carried on with the lesson it is far more likely the OP would have ignored anything said (actions speak louder than words after all) and carried on with their reckless stupidity. The instructor was instructing by not instructing.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

Neil Lawson was an excellent photographer and a good pilot, i only had the privilege of meeting him once but his pictures still adorn the café at Lasham, you can even see his shots here the white planes picture co - aviation image library. Photographs and videos of aviation and airsports (http://www.whiteplanes.com)
His parent left the site up as a memorial.

Nice chap, i was keen to get into some amateur Air to Air photography and he was more than happy to give pointers.

I had actually heard he was directing gliders on the ground when hit but obviously not.

So the original Poster should take note, and other pilots should feel free to comment if they see anything unsafe no matter if your on 'duty' or not.
I'd rather have a quiet word in my ear than a prop up my backside.

[su2114]

(actions speak louder than words after all) and carried on with their reckless stupidity. The instructor was instructing by not instructing.

well said mur007:ok:

and i didn't write this post to justify what i did with supporters from some of you ...i just came here to see what you guys will say

some of us just learn the hard way

[RatherBeFlying]

Glider fields by their nature invite more accidental contacts between people and aircraft than at power fields.

First of all there are more people about retrieving and putting gliders on the line plus a bunch of people hanging about waiting for their flight. With power fields the only people about are on the ramp or tiedowns.

Second, gliders don't make up much noise; so, they can sneak up from behind.

Remember also that Joe Student or hotshot competition pilot may have gotten low and is squeezing it in over the trees on one of the other runways who will not be spotted until he is on the ground. (Much better to pick out a reasonable field with sufficient height to fly a decent circuit).

[CISTRS]

Whatever happened to commonsense?
I have flown at many gliding sites - both civilian and Air Cadet training. If any conflict seemed likely, the commonsense rule was to stop moving and face the landing aircraft who could then pick a landing run without having to worry about moving personnel, retrieve tractors, etc. The landing area was situated so as not to interfere with the winch cable run. The winch cable tow-out driver was facing the right way, and his course was obvious - so no need for him to stop except in a rare situation.
Kids, dogs and enthusiasts around the launch point control "caravan" were the biggest hazard, but were always instructed in the safe way to behave. Duty Pilot - who's that pillock out in the undershoot???
And a good safe fun time was to had by all.
:ok:

[ross_M]

Second, gliders don't make up much noise; so, they can sneak up from behind.


How long before they start carrying air-horns? :)

[Jim59]

How long before they start carrying air-horns?
When I was learning to glide in a T21 you could shout at people standing in the way! Putting canopies over pilots' heads was clearly a retrograde step.

[BackPacker]

Story I heard from a few years ago.

This gliding club was renting their field from a farmer, or the farmer was paying for the hay/manure rights. Or something like that. In any case, both the farmer and the club were using the field for their own purposes.

One day the CFI was on final approach and sees the farmer standing at the side of the field. CFI chooses his landing place, only to be confronted by the farmer walking directly into it. So the CFI banks and picks a new place. Farmer again walks into the path of the landing aircraft.

Eventually the aircraft lands safely. The farmer walks up to the glider and shouts at the CFI: "Why do you keep turning away from me. You saw I wanted to talk to you!"

:eek: