If you were successful in the last DESO interviews back in 2008 but were placed in a hold pool, will you be accepting CX's latest "final offer" to join as an S/O?

Let's keep it simple, YES or NO?

Me: NO

If you really are interested in working for CX, trust the advice of the guys already working there and don't give in to the "final offer" scare tactics. The package is still way less than what we all interviewed for, and will only continue to get better if everyone continues to decline.

Me, like a lot of the other DESO candidates I interviewed with were experienced multi-engine jet pilots.. TWO AND A HALF YEARS ago! Without even getting into the grossly degraded terms & conditions, three months "learning" to fly a multi-engine piston in Adelaide as a "Cadet" is an insult.

If I still have the itch to go overseas to fly widebodys internationally, I'll go to Emirates as an FO (I challenge any of you considering this offer to compare the packages). Or I'll wait it out here stateside for another year or two for hiring to pick up at the Majors, while the rest of you who accepted are handcuffed to your 300 sq/ft shack in Tuen Mun, living in squalor, counting the days to the expiration of your "forgivable loan". Good Luck.

The short answer: NO

Like many above NO.

Others have stated it but this offer is an insult to both potential DESO employees and the guys currently employed with CX.:hmm:

I've moved on and now work for another wide body carrier.

NO

If we keep going down this track they may just revert to the original offer.

Does anybody know how many were in the Hold Pool...I thought someone said there were around 50...so far only 2% is NO...let just wait and see how many more will say NO....

NO

Worked too hard to be treated like this.

If you don't stand for something you stand for nothing.

Rumour within CX has it, that of 60 DESO 's in the hold pool, only one has accepted the offer on a fast track cadetship terms.

For an airline to attract maturity and experience from overseas they will simply have to pay for it. You guys have made that clear!!

We are getting 100 odd new airframes over the next 9 years. Let's say there will be 50 airframes going into retirement, which makes a net gain of 50 new aircraft over 9 years. That translates into a new airframe every 2 months for the next 9 years. We currently have 2500 pilots and operate 115 aircraft which means we need minimum 22 pilots per airframe to keep them flying. In other words we need approx 22 new pilots every 2 months for the next 9 years and we are understaffed as it is today. On top of that in a few years guys will start hitting their 60's and retirements will pick up as well.

Will all these new joiners be Cadets? Time will tell...

Good luck gents!!
catpac

No.

I didn't lose any sleep over my decision.

on the fence... young, single, enjoy HKG immensely; CX is profitable and growing, and they have never furloughed a pilot unlike every single American carrier, where the concept of "career" is a total crapshoot. However the housing allowance is severely degraded and I do believe I am worth more, given my experience. However you don't know what it's like to be treated less than you're worth until you've worked at a US regional carrier... :yuk:

they have never furloughed a pilot unlike every single American carrier

nope, but you can be fired for 'no particular reason'.

Even for not giving your name at a management meeting when you ask a pointed question? Like WTF are you doing to this airline? All right...I'll feel right at home!

I heard that a senior FO at cathay earns more money than a emirates captain if that is true maybe you should consider that before joining emirates and you are living in the sand pit as well

At Emirates, you actually get to fly the airplane! whereas, if you join as an SO at CX, you will be lucky if you get to fly a plane in your first 5 years. Isn't that why we get into this profession; because we love to fly? Good luck getting back to your home country at either; unless you have PIC time in a 777 or bus... which you get at Emirates.


Don't listen to CX's promises; they never come true - even the ones in writing. Sandpit has a nice waterpark I hear, and you can breathe the air.

...and they need LOTS of A380 captains!

Chewie,

since the new offer for S/O's includes almost no housing, Emirates is financially the better package ( plus time to command is probably significantly shorter).

I think what we are all trying to say, is don't be misguided into believing CX is still the great airline it once was. It is not. Come here now and you will be locked into a very sub-standard contract for your whole career. And all those those years as an S/O, the hours and 'experience' you've gained are completely useless in the rest of the aviation world. To top it off, over the course of your career, the DESO who joined only a year ago, on the full package will earn 3x, 4x, 5x (I haven't crunched the numbers) what you will, for doing the exact same job. And, they will be living in a nice sized low rise with garden, while you are living in a dump struggling to make ends meet each month. Then, when you are desperate to get out of the squalor we call Hong Kong and go on a base it is very likely that the same guy who joined only a year before you will be ready to go too and get that base before you do and you will be stuck in HKG on that career long crappy contract. Please guys, think about what you are getting yourselves into.

What do you guys think about the package for a person who is single and without kids, in their 20's, with 200 hours or less experience? Just curious!

as someone who flight instructed for 5 years before a regional airline gig, I'd say at 200 hrs you are not supposed to be thinking about "packages" but rather building flight time however you can. but, if you are offered a package such as CX's, I say go for it. just don't expect to get any sympathy if you find something to complain about.

building flight time however you can.

this is the reason our industry is in the state it is.

if you are offered a package such as CX's, I say go for it.

the problem with this advice is that the hours you acrue in CX as an S/O will be completely usesless anywhere else. So the same guy that tells you to build hours anyway you can and accept CX's crappy contract, neglects to tell you that the hours and hours spent over the Pacific for half a decade (or longer once the next oil crisis hits) as an S/O are completely and utterly usesless.

What do you guys think about the package for a person who is single and without kids, in their 20's, with 200 hours or less experience? Just curious!

One day you will be married, in your 30's with kids. Do you really want to still be on a sub-standard contract then? Remember, this contract is career long. You will be screwed over for your whole career at CX, not just while you are young and single.

Great post Dan
But I don't think they really understand what your trying to say.

Do you really want to still be on a sub-standard contract then?

I've had a similar debate on the main forum, but please tell me (I'm genuinely curious) who has a better package out there right now? Factoring everything in, I am staying in Hong Kong because the finances just don't make sense anywhere else.

You're right. These kids just don't get it. They ask questions like "Should I take it?" not wanting to hear the answer anyway. Those of you asking these questions, please go back and read posts from those at CX now. You'll find an overwhelming percentage telling you EXACTLY what the correct decision is to make. You just don't want to hear it because you're so blinded.

They would be FAR better off building real hours in anything as opposed to limiting the soul that they've sold to CX for around 10 years, saving next to nothing and then if moving on having to start again. You'll be 5-10 years BEHIND anyone else your age by way of hours least of all a little thing called "experience". Stay with CX forever you say? Wow! You've really considered the big picture of wife, family, kids, retirement, sickness/loss fo license, HK isn't for you, or your wife, kids..... Strutting with 1 bar in HK sounds like an ego better stroked than PIC of a light single or twin or turbine. And that's all that matters, eh?

Just look at the questions they are asking..... "What is CAT?........Which ILS will I have to fly?" (Only relevant if challenging missed approach or that they may have to factor cold wx ops then again perhaps these two things are pushing the envelop of knowledge it seems. Get them to go-around below the MDA or DH from any NPA or ILS and see the decision they make. PS: "ILS" is short for I'm Like Superman, in case it's asked in the interview.)

It's nothing but a damn insult that children ask questions like these and will take the jobs a lot of us passed a far higher standard for & refuse to be screwed over by substandard terms and conditions.

The more people able to say no to the offer then the better the package will be for EVERYONE. Please don't encourage people of any age or any experience level to accept it knowing what the result will be to their own position and to the detriment of the terms and conditions in the long run.

Like I said before, pay bananas you get monkeys.

Substandard T&C's is relative. I work for a regional airline - happens to be one of the largest in the world. Our competitive minimums have ranged over the years from 3000-4000hrs, with considerable turbine time, to recent years of 300-500 hours, with some light twin time. Did the guy who got on with 4k hrs get the shaft or did the one with 192 hrs of total time (yes, 192 hrs has been to lowest) get in unfairly?

I said NO to offer 2.0. I think it is substandard considering what was offered before, and considering what I believe to be "worthy". But what about the guy who few years back waited 5 years at a LCC and came in as DESO with a 737 type - was he "overqualified" or would've I gotten in without paying my dues? Maybe I would've been the one B-scalers look down upon and think how I'm bringing down their profession (besides my subpar aviating skillz and a total d!ck personality :) ).

Chinabeached,
It's ironic that the guys with the smarts to turn down this offer are more than likely the 'switched on' type of guys CX really want on the flight deck.
But the guys they are actually going to get will be the naive and guillible kids with SJS.

No for me. It would have eaten me up knowing that my co-workers were being paid nearly twice what I was.

Turned it down. Received what I took to be a form letter within about 5 minutes of sending them my email. Apparently enough people are turning it down that it is worth them coming up with a form letter at all!

Cathays response was simply that if I wanted another shot I would have to go through the whole application process again. Pity really as I would have loved to have flown for Cathay and lived in HK.

I said no too... unfortunately the offer is not sufficient given the job and my experience. Plus the loan just stinks of training bond. N.American industry is supposed to pick up and it seems cx should be doing more (not less) to attract qualified talent, assuming they do indeed desire qualified talent.

Now with ULH using two SO's an FO and Cpt all they need are warm bodies.

The SO's will not be upgraded for, I reckon, 6-7 years. (I would shoot myself sitting and watching...even when I only had 200 hours).

I can not imagine not flying for 7 years then being put in the right seat and fly to any reasonable standard. But I am sure these new young guys have superman like flying skills...

NO

Turned it down. Waited until the last minute, maybe hoping the numbers on the paper would change. No such luck. I must say I'm impressed by the backbone and integrity showed by my fellow DESO poolies by turning it down en masse. Its the only way things will get better. We're worth more than a C scale. Bravo gents!

Just to add to the numbers here, I've also turned down this sub standard offer, though could see this coming 18 months ago!

also a "no."

I have applied for the Cadet Pilot(SO program). Have not received a call yet. But given its a job where you just eat sandwich and save nothing. I wouldn't take it. Even though 33k HKD is as much as what a ATR captain gets paid here. Money is an important thing but more important is what I do as an employee.

If they was something to do during the flight as a part of the crew its a different thing. But reading how it goes, i would say NO.

NO...:yuk:

NO...but it seems like there are some are accepting. Which frustrated the hell out of me because I was hoping CX would have make a real offer!

...I was hoping CX would have make a real offer!

but they won't, as long as the guillible children keep accepting it.

Or until market forces change direction - much like any other industry.

You guys ARE the MARKET....,!!!! it'll only change if you make it!

DO NOT accept this offer. Fine if you intend to remain single and have no kids but rarely is that the case. It's often the case you'll end up getting married and then eventually end up single anyway but with the headache of kids to pay for....

You will not create any wealth for yourself via these contracts but you'll create plenty for Swire Management. Stay where you are and wait for an opportunity at home, it WILL come. If you can do 10 years then maybe you'll be in a position to move on from CX but you'll need to be disciplined i.e. single, no kids. Hong Kong is expensive - think about your quality of life at home before you take the offer. The Expat B Scale SO scale is a joke but these new terms are a new low for CX. DO NOT come here with a family on these terms:ugh:

CX_777ER and others applying...(especially people with some serious TT),

Nobody knows what will happen to those who accept this shite deal... you guys are the first lot who "face" this 6 year bond/forgivable loan BS...I personally think that about 30% will stay and 70% will leave as soon as they can (or just do a "runner"); please keep in mind that the Middle East will be out of reach after 6 years since they need 2000TT on heavy jets as an FO. So if you are planning to spend 4-5 years as an SO (useless time in the logbook) and a year as an FO you wont meet the requirements.

I have also heard from a source in ADL that CX is getting plenty of kids without flying experience (real cadets), but only got a few people on the advanced course and literally nobody for the short course.

Give it some time - CX will have to up the package to get experienced people back in the cockpit.

My 2 HK$ worth...

The biggest problem with the loan for the TT course is the upside is probably $80k usd with the downside being 140k. In other words after the opportunity cost of presumably getting no pay for the 3 months of training, after taxes, and after paying for your training out of the loan you are left with 80k. But if you want to leave CX prior to 6yrs you are stuck with a bill for 140k? That's not right... and what about the unknowns if you lose your medical, fail a checkride, etc. I'd hate to be on the short end of that stick.

Meanwhile the other SOs will have decent places... well I'd prefer not to do the exact same job as the last guy but for far less. That's not exactly a recipe for long term happiness. Once you're on a base housing is a moot point anyways right; well throw in the expected lengthening SO upgrade times along with the unknowns regarding basings and it seems the SOs joining today will be in HKG a while. After waiting for 2.5yrs for this job it was difficult to say no, but with the expected global growth it won't be hard to find something better. It's really too bad.. I guess they could always increase the T&C for those who join today but how likely is that when the company knows you can't even afford to quit for the next 6yrs.

Low hours pilots are not really being hired into airlines atm so the CX route seems the best! :bored:

There is a reason for that.

...Are CX going to make you repay the full cost of training? Surely that'd be a bit out of order if CX made cadets do this...

I've been here long enough to know that is exactly what CX would do.

Hi,

A couple of quick questions to any ladies or gentlemen working for the company at the moment. I've had my application in for a while now, updating every couple of months or so and received an e-mail last week inviting me for a SO interview in July in HK( I ticked FO/SO on original application but have been invited for SO interview).

Currently I have approx 3000 Total time, with around 2500 on A319/320 and ATPL. I work for a low cost carrier and am based outside the UK, I don't really have any great ambition to head to the sandpit and would like to return to the UK in the future.

With regard to my current levels of experience, how long could I expect to hold the position of SO before being upgraded to FO? Or is it even an option for direct entry FO position? It is also my understanding that currently SOs reside in HK, what would be the possibility/time frame of being based in London, after being upgraded to FO and is there much demand for such postings?

Thanks in advance.
DB

It will be around 6 yrs...maybe longer....One quick question for you? have even looked at all other post in this site....You are being called for Icadet/SO, not DESO. Take a look at the T&C and you will see why people are not taking the offer. As for sandpit, they will take you as you are short on the Total time. please take time and read...Good luck.

After completeing the CX recruitment process, I have decided to decline cathay's offer for the Cadet Program. I have always been really excited about the prospect of working for CX, how ever I have lost my enthusiasm after considering all the information made available. I guess I am a bit lost now and not really to sure where to aim my sights as the Airline industry in Oz seams to be going dowhhill. To all those cadets that decide the conditions are suited to you, I wish you good luck. I certainly will be envious of you when you are sitting in a 777 and I am still beating around in a Chieftain. I hope that before signing a contract, you take the time to absorb all the information and put yourself into the day to day lifestyle that you can expect. Thankyou to all the guys that take time on here to post providing a valuable insight into life at CX. I hope your conditions are not eroded as a result of the actions of others. Then again, maybe things are not as bad as what some of you are making out.. Anyway, I will never know. I obviously have a few doubts, but overall I think I have made the right decision for me.
:hmm:
Call Departures

So, will they ever take on the likes of myself who got a 'YES' letter in 2008 after a DE F/O interview ?

@<hidden>

Never gonna happen - move on!

That's what i figured !

Would anyone be so kind to inform me of the outlines of this new SO offer? I have been so hell bent on working for CX one day and being a long haul airline pilot. I am a low hour bizjet captain and currently earning double than what this offer seems to be with much lower cost of living.

I have been invited for an interview for the 12 week transition SO position i.e. higher total time program.

Meh,
You applied knowing full well the details. Not impressive, and not surprising.

Would anyone be so kind to inform me of the outlines of this new SO offer?

The outline is CX has now joined the race to the bottom in this industry. The only applicants they are getting are pimply faced wannabes with severe SJS. It will only get worse not better. You are far better off on your bizjet.

I can completely agree. As one of the very lucky few whose family member is on the (soon to be nonexistant) A scale (STC for 25 years) I have to say go and look at what CX guys are saying to their kids. I was in a very fortunate position to have a beer with said family member and his friends who all joined pre 1990. What CX WAS and what it IS is a very different beast. From people I know within the belly - If their telling their own kids (who hear it from a lot of others) not to do it? Why do it?

CALLDEPATURES - I'm happy with my NT chief, we may have had a beer together...

And those who have kids determined to fly are applying to the cadet course as for someone with 0 hours it is not a bad way to get into the industry, yes it won't be the same career their dads had but is one of the better ways to start. It took me about 8 years on really bad pay most of the time to get into CX as a DESO. In 8 years these kids will have 2-3000 (not as SO but as an FO) hours whilst making more than I did and can get a descent FO job elsewhere if they wish. Also much easier on their dads wallets. Disgusted that CX are trying to get experienced guys on the cadet scheme but that is another issue.

Brisdude

Chieftain is good flying, glad I didnt miss this step all together. Maybe we have had a beer although im spending most of time in the southern part of the continent.

Calldepartures

Quote" The outline is CX has now joined the race to the bottom in this industry. The only applicants they are getting are pimply faced wannabes with severe SJS. It will only get worse not better. "


Tbh kind of getting sick of you attacking half the cadet...pimply faced wannabes i sure you were the same when u were 18. Now you experience it, you can write all these stuff...everyone know how bad the scheme is...its their life if they want to take it let them...

u hve been goin on and on about the same point

I think people like danbuster repeat there points because

a) people just don't get it! It must be so frustrating to be on a 12hr flight to HKG having to listen to the SO moan and moan about the conditions because the failed to research properly beforehand. It amazes me how people just ignore the advice of current CX pilots, that goes against all logic. Maybe it's because people like you want to work for CX soooo badly that you block anything negative out. You just cannot afford to do that, otherwise it will be another whining SO to the list. Also joining on the current CPP terms means as captain you will earn the same as a Yr3 DESO (or something like that, can't rememeber exactly) but I read it in another thread

and b) because they don't want their own contracts eroded. I certaintly wouldn't want someone coming in and doing my job less for me, as I can predict exactly what would happen to my wage.

danbuster etc... are giving an (in my opinion) incredibly useful input into the whole cadet system at CX and putting it into perspective. They have taught me so much about CX and how expensive HK is which I had no idea about beforehand, so thanks!

I was thinking of applying to CX someday but have calculated that the package is unsustainable to live on. I've found out what a SO earns, then try and find somewhere in HK that you can afford to live in. The size of the entire 'apartment' is comparable to my bedroom. Then of course it occured to me that if the accomodation is the cheapest then it must be in some nasty area. I googled the area and it doesn't have the best reputation. Most people get married and have kids too.... so that has to be factored in to the cost.

So in about 10 minutes of my time, using google and a calculator I worked out that it is just not worth it. So not a lot of time required. I spent more time reading through archives and also will read the 49ers over my summer holiday.

The bottom line is that they are just pointing out that the package is inadequate and unsustainable for a career in HK and with CX, which by the way will be 26 years before you reach the LHS.

It is totally understandable that you think that way tchanhk. I find it quite remarkable that grown men, who probably kow tow in the presence of senior management are jealously safeguarding their own backsides within a company under a viel of anonymity at the expense of impressionable youngsters keen to forge a career in commercial aviation.

I have sat by and watched the same names on this website systematically rubbish future careers by their repetative ramblings against this worldwide CEP scheme. Nowhere in the real world have I heard even a whisper of the apparent derision expressed by a very vocal minority of (allegedly) CX pilots here. Odd that. So that says either one of two things to me:

a) This forum is still the homepage of a number of very disgruntled DEP hold pool candiates who vetoed the new pay scale after getting their hopes up following their DEP interview process. Understandable grievances for sure, but life moves on lads!

b) Some "old salts" (as one PPRuNer dubbed them) are unhappy with the CX management, the current recruitment drive and the possiblility of diminishing T&C's for themselves. Understandable again I guess, but their incessant presence on any thread remotely connected to CX has all but rendered any argument they had completely farcical given the over egging. Baby thrown out with the bath water bigtime chaps.

So my advice for any young wannabe with no hours, who doesn't have the financial means to make a career in commercial aviation a possibility, is to apply for the CEP scheme and keep at it! Do not listen to the tired old voices on this website who, lets be clear, have serious ulterior motives in swaying you away from your goal in life! Selfish, self preservating, 'pull the ladder up Jack and sod the rest' wimps lacking the courage of their convictions to get off their backsides and practice the behaviour they are preaching. Tragic.

Just remember: these guys smile to their bosses, take the cash and then complain like hell about it on an anonymous internet forum. You can learn a lot about the human condition from reading some of the stuff in this forum kids. It shows everything that is wrong with western capitalist thinking and proves the old adage that whether you have too much or not enough of it - money will always cause arguments.

Follow your dreams kids and do not become cynical before your time. Yes, the CEP scheme is NOT free but it's a damn sight cheaper and reliable than anything else going.

VFE.

stevop12

firstly i haven't even apply for the cadet scheme becoz i know its not for me, so i dont even know why are you trying to say im ignoring the advice...even though i can get by becoz i have family in hk. Work for CX so badly lol mate just completed my Msc and a ACCA. Im sure i got plenty of alternative than to beg for job for a company like CX (even though its tough atm).

Danbuster & chinabeach advice is actually one of the most useful poster on cx topic but danbuster keep banging on the same point...if they (wannabes) really want to listern they would of by now. Just read through the 140+ pages and you should get an idea of what cx management are like and the pros and cons of the package.

I mean what can you guys do, yes the management are all :mad: so what everywhere are the same. but u guys just moan moan moan leave the company if you think they are not treating you the right way or they are not paying you the right amount. (im talking about the current cx not cadet).

Careful, VFE, with that attitude you'll only be accused of being another CX management stooge ;)

Dan Buster and China Beached are really starting to sound like broken records.
We understand that the contract isn't exactly stellar, and that the living conditions in Hong Kong aren't going to be the greatest. We know all about the 49'ers and we even understand that Cathay isn't exactly the most trustworthy airline in the neighborhood. And what? Who is? The entire industry is going to hell in a handcart anyway.

If you think for a second that i am going to sit on my hands and wait for conditions to improve, just so you can sleep a little better at night knowing your contract is supposedly safer, then you are sadly mistaken. Go on, call me names, tell me i am a sell out - it changes nothing. If anything, all it does is lower my opinion of you so called 'professionals'. For every cadet who turns down the offer, there will be another in line who is ready to jump at the chance. It is all well and good to encourage cadets to turn the offer down while you are comfortable on your b-scale contracts, but for many applicants you can guarantee the pay and conditions in Hong Kong are going to be an IMPROVEMENT over their status quo. If you cannot see that, then you are just as naive as the 'starry eyed cadets' you seek to discourage.

Any cadet worth their salt will do their own research to determine whether or not Cathay is a good option.

FWIW i've done time in GA. Thanks to the recession and the very limited number of flying opportunities in my country i now work in retail. Every single day is another day wasted, and another day spent wishing i was somewhere else. It is easy to be critical when you already have the job - but for those who don't, this is an excellent opportunity. Am i prepared to spend 4-6 years eating sandwiches and making the skippers bunk? Hell yes. It's got to be better than working as a salesman for minimum wage. Who expects to start at the top anyway?

tchanhk at least chooses to listen to all sides of a debate and not pathetically idolise the job but studies all the issues that go with it. People don't have to agree but an open mind to others with first hand experience of CX and international widebody ops one would think is worth listening to.

VFE:
I decided some time back that I had put enough cash into this career and refuse point blank now on the grounds of maintaining my sanity to pay out anymore to try and get a leg up.

So, it's OK for YOU to draw a line in the sand and refuse to lose money or "sell out" to further a career or credentials, eh? You draw your conclusions based on experience as an illustrious instructor. We do the same from first hand experience of CX and international widebody ops. If I wanted to be a VFR circuit chaser then I would heed your advice. You want to get into airline ops yet dismiss ours. Your call. Yet I bet you'd be critical of your student pilot showing up at the flying club not heeding the advice you or other instructors gave. You'd keep your eye on the likes of this unprofessional wannabe because he or she is the type that always seems to know better...... You'd complain about new instructors coming to your outfit doing it for far, FAR less and at a lower standard that severely undermines your job and renumeration, yet you do the exact same to the CX pilots and industry as whole anyway.

Guys like you will not read John Warhams "The 49ers - The True Story" because it may contain information that you have ignorantly decided does not fit the mold of needed information. Fella, you can memorise the 744 fuel system and policy all you want. Thats all it is: memory retention to pass an interview, nothing more, nothing less. John's book is a life lesson of CX and airline ops. Go to another thread (http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/438697-forthcoming-book-49ers.html) but you wont like it because others with EXPERIENCE offer comment & input that doesn't fit your Shiny Jet Syndrome At Any Cost thought process.

VFE, you've made your decision & so be it. You believe that anonymity is the cheap safe guard behind such posts. Fascinating coming from a guy with 1649 (& counting) of such "anonymous" posts..... Again, if you would read John's book you would understand. Then again ignorance is bliss it seems.

Present day CX pilots' housing allowance agreement is up for renewal soon. You have to be naive in the extreme to not think the CPP contract isn't placing undue pressure on this! VFE, you rant about "everything that is wrong with capitalistic thinking" yet you haven't the backbone to practice what you preach, yet instead seek to contribute to it.

And if you think present CX pilots go to work smiling and back-slapping their bosses, then it really shows your complete and utter ignorance to what really goes on. Have a few beers with some of the guys and you'll realise that the s.o.b. management guys - lowest of the low are the management pilots screwing their fellow pilots - are ignored and by and large drink alone on overnights as the pariahs they are.

Your information comes from speculation, not FACT.

Chinabeached is NOT a pilot with Cathay Pacific Airways.

Just another disgruntled DEP who got kicked over the edge.

I do not hide behind anonymity, the guys who run this website know me personally so that kinda blows your argument sky high doesn't it? In fact, I was jumpseating with Rob Lloyd over ten years ago when you were probably just an itch in yer daddy's underpants for all I know.

Once again kids, be warned about people on here with ulterior motives! Out of the 2,500 or more current CX pilots, only a handful feel sufficiently passionate to post on PPRuNe ad nasueum regarding the potential pitfalls of this CPP! It has become a crusade for some and for me, that starts alarm bells ringing because no pilot I know would spend their time tapping away on here like a raving lunatic day in and day out unless they had serious self interests at heart, or, were not in fact who they say they are as evidenced by Chinabeached who likes to claim he knows a thing or two about Cathay Pacific. Hmmm!

Granted, for guys with professional licences and hours already clocked up, this scheme may not be worth the financial and personal sacrifices on top of those already made. But hey, we're all big boys now so can make those educated decisions ourselves through our own contacts outside of cyberspace and certainly without "help" from any tom dick or harry posting here.

I shall leave it there for now as I'm actually embarrassed to contributing to this thread now.

Regards,

VFE.

that starts alarm bells ringing because no pilot I know would spend their time tapping away on here like a raving lunatic day in and day out unless they had serious self interests at heart, or, were not in fact who they say they are as evidenced

1650 posts since year 2000, nearly 1 every 2 days. So who's "tapping away like a raving lunatic"?

I do not hide behind anonymity

So your birth certificate reads "VFE"? Or is that a username since you don't use your real name here? Don't worry, I'm typing slow for you to realise the idiocy of your statement.

so that kinda blows your argument sky high doesn't it?

No, because you post under an username creating an anonymous persona. Write on here your real name and see where that gets you? There's your challenge. Front up or shut up. So, no it doesn't blow any argument out of the sky, only reinforces it. Idiot.

So after my posts stating time after time what I've done and that I'm not at CX due personal choice & self worth, you decide to state the bleeding obvious! Genius. I'm not disgruntled, it was my choice. I researched all the facts and have a backbone that isn't for sale to the lowest bidder.

10 years ago.... I was an FO on regional turboprops and in 2 more years a Capt. Itch in my daddy's underpants? Well, if that were true then in my short time I've progressed far, far quicker than you! And I'm not a sell-out, as will your label be for the rest of your career.

But hey, we're all big boys now so can make those educated decisions ourselves through our own contacts outside of cyberspace and certainly without "help" from any tom dick or harry posting here.

And you still post / "tapping away like a raving lunatic" day in day out begging for information on 744 fuel systems & policy, CX fleet size, engine types, etc, etc. Grow a pair, get some factual knowledge (here's a hint to show my lack of knowledge, it's called "Janes All The World's Aircraft" - you won't need an anonymous username to access factual information!) Then again, the fingers that scratch your daddy's underwear are so used to computer mouse clicking on a "RUMOUR" web site that you haven't a clue how to find or research real facts.

Kid, I've more PIC hours on FAR 25/26 category aircraft than you've touch 'n goes in your typical VFR instructing days and nearly double the time on jets than you've posts on pprune. I know what I did in GA & domestic / regional flying to earn a CX interview back 3+ years ago. The likes of you are only considered because the likes of me & others turned it down. Enjoy the scraps because that's how you're viewed & that's how you are paid as a result.

Know nothing of CX? Those who have contacted me via PM's asking why I have my opinions will differ to your ignorant & spineless comments. Again, there's an entire book out, but it hasn't enough pictures or coming from a RUMOUR NETWORK, therefore beyond your needs, proficiency or character.

My alterior motives? None. See if sell-outs like you didn't take this pathetic deal (if offered) then people like me would be able to accept the same terms as we interviewed for. There would be no pressure on present CX pilots' terms and conditions to be lowered yet again and the likes of you would have to work and study hard, not only from internet rumour networks for information to meet a far, far higher standard. Airlines all over would see that being cheap isn't right and (experienced) pilots will not accept it.

Tart up your accusations about my credentials and your spineless needs to justify being a sell-out as much as you will. With the style of person you are; unable to appreciate another's point of view, seeking factual information from rumour networks in the stead of hard documented facts that can be cited when needed, and a VFR circuit jock I doubt whether CX passes you. And if they do, well they have gone so far aft of the drag curve that no amount of power can recover it's sorry state. But that's precisely what you need..... So it may be argued that you need the experienced guys to stay away and encourage zero or low hour guys to make you look better?

CX interviewer "Tell us about the 744 fuel system & policy".
VFE (an anonymous username) "Well I posted this exact same question pprune and they answered that it even has fuel in the horizontal stab......!"

To be a fly on that wall!!!

Hihi..... Sweet justice would be your present boss offering a kid your job on 60% less pay and you being unable to accept it. A broken record? Get used to it: SELL-OUT.

Actually, that'd be my boss doing me a favor. I hate my job.

Now now Chinabeached please don't go getting your skirt on over it, I was just yanking your chain and your emotional response has proved my point rather well:

Bitter ulterior motives kids!!

See it there for yourselves.

Tut tut old chap. Bad form.

VFE.

It's "alterior", not ulterior. First time I thought a typo, second time? Use spell check otherwise you come across illiterate.

Yes very poor form to stick to one's beliefs & not sell-out my colleagues & industry for selfish greed or the "GA is too hard / difficult" arguement.

VFE raises unsubstantiated arguments & makes ignorant accusations but when replied to can only respond with "tut-tut old chap". With your spelling & complete inability to defend hollow arguments & such ignorant accusations it would be best if you did as you said before: "embarrassed to contributing to this thread". Hell, embarrassment is the least of your concerns. Try grammar & spelling first, then progress to educated reasoning, debate & fact at a later date.

So if it's "bad form" to counter accusations & ignorance, as well as to not accept a job that places negative pressure on present & future CX (& airlines in general) pilot's terms & conditions, what is "good form"? Pathetic when we even have to ask these questions.

Hihi doesn't have an arguement, just the "it's too hard to get a GA job so I don't care if I'm a sell-out - screw you all" response. Nice. What a doyenne of moral fiber & integrity.

Crikey, someone take him home! :}

Priceless! Which dictionary are you reading then? The Urban one? lol

A yank attempting to correct an Englishman on spelling and getting it wrapped round his neck - brilliant! Irony probably not your strong point today then...

Thanks for the amusement today ChinaBeached. Encore, encore!! :}

VFE.

VFE

why dont you try to come up something more constructive to say rather than just to start an argument

is that all u do...no wonder u have excess of 1600+ post

Keep to the topic plz

Hell, embaressment is the least of your concerns. Try grammar & spelling first, then progress to educated reasoning, debate & fact at a later date.


Is 'embaressment' an 'alterior' form of spelling embarrassment? Well it just so happens that i have some advice for you!

You should try grammar & spelling first, then progress to educated reasoning, debate & fact at a later date.

Oooohhhh sweet irony!


As to whether or not i have an 'arguement' (presumably you meant argument?), yours seems to involve picking at other peoples spelling and grammar - in which case your argument fails in a blaze of incredible ironic fail.


Yeah, i am totally a sellout. I have my interview with Cathay coming up shortly. Don't worry, i'll spare you a thought whilst i munch on my sandwiches.

(Must admit to waking & reading the typos / errors & having a laugh...You two seem to be willing to argue the small & trivial points if only for the other issues you could defend).

So, "Are you accepting offer?"

No. To do so would mean to sell out and compromise all the moral integrity that people like John Warham and the other 49ers defended against, to offer but one example relevant to CX. To do so would leave me as little other than a potential scab in the hope that through the sacrifice of others I will eventually benefit. No, because integrity and self worth is not for sale.

I wasn't raised to believe that opportunities made apparent via selling out my colleagues and industry as a whole make me a better person.

VFE and hihi, neither of you earned an interview. You are just the naive and ignorant puppets of a management existing on your yellow stomach and rubbery backbone.

VFE moans about capitalism yet begs to contribute to the shear greed and race to the bottom. Nothing but cheap mutton on a cheap production line.

Hihi, no need to spare a thought for me IF you get into CX. I've been in the RHS of a widebody for a while now earning a pay cheque that you will not see for another 20+ years "IF" you do get through the interview then training.

The likes of the two of you are already viewed as pariahs at CX, and the wider airline industry.

So you have a job on a wide body jet already, yet you still feel the need to come online and abuse Cathay Pacific and those interested in the cadet program? What on earth is wrong with you? Are you really that bitter and hateful?

Buddy, this is not a healthy use of your free time. Find yourself a woman or a hobby!

As for whether or not i have 'earned' an interview - fortunately that isn't for you to decide, my friend. I'll be sure to let you know how things progress though :)

Job Search (http://job-bank.workandincome.govt.nz/find-a-job/details.aspx?JobId=192707)

Ahhh, the joys of instructing! Although, even as a C-Cat i started off on more than that. $15 per hour for a Japanese speaking B-Cat in NZ? Good luck! No wonder these cadet schemes are so enticing.

That job requires the mentioned "CREDENTIALS" & "EXPERIENCE", is protected under strict NZ Labour Laws & takes determination, backbone & professional fortitude.

The (CX) job that the likes of the above need has none of these attributes or requirements.

Sad & a shame that GA (instructing) jobs are deemed harder than widebody airline jobs, especially when considering how CX used to be viewed & standards required.

Yeah, i am totally a sellout. I have my interview with Cathay coming up shortly. Don't worry, i'll spare you a thought whilst i munch on my sandwiches.

I'll spare you a thought while CX pays for my apartment and i can afford to enjoy my life by not being a sell out.

Tut tut old chap :E:E

hihi

without people like chinabeach etc, on here providing advice from their experience, the forum would be just full of wannabes like urself.

maybe u should get a hobby instead of thinking about cx all the time...maybe go out and get laid..

Hihi: find but one post of mine "abusing Cathay Pacific" as you accuse. I have mentioned at length the ruthless, greedy & immoral management tactics used to drive up share price & maximise their personal financial bonuses. Nowhere have I "abused Cathay Pacific".

I read & research facts: CX DFO & GMA updates, AOA updates, friends & colleagues at CX as SO, FO, & Capt, as well as Base Capts, personal successful CX interview experience, widebody jet ops & thousands of hours from lowly GA, regional/domestic ops as Capt & FO to international airlines, university degree & recently "The 49ers" book....etc, etc. And you? Wanna continue this pissing contest?

Those regarding the iCadet program? Abuse? No, but I'll fight fire with fire & call out pathetics like you willfully, admittely & openly confessing to selling out for greedy self gain at the expense of all I & others have worked so damn hard for. I've swapped many PM's with at least 6 or 8 people discussing our differing views. Some have their reasons & we can agree to disagree, but yours is despicable at best.

Find myself a woman? I did many years ago. An amazing, beautiful woman who has supported my career through thick & thin, high of highs & the lowest of lows, times of employment & not. When she saw the CX offer they presented me (us) she was so disgusted that it was her who told me to not even dare lower myself to such an insult: especially in light of the sacrifices we've made. Things a sell out like you cannot fathom.

And, I can afford to take her to dinner, buy her flowers, support a mortgage & plan for a future family. I earned that privilege.

Don't call me friend. We are far, very far from that. My friends have integrity.

lmao, such a melodramatist! You missed your true calling, ChinaBeached - you should have been a soap opera star!

Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. Why did Cathay reject you? Did you try preaching honesty and integrity to them? Did you talk about 'back bone' and 'sell outs'?

Man up, grab a tissue, deal with it. Whether or not you care to accept it, cadet programs such as Cathay's are here to stay. Your apparent disdain for them, and the need that you feel to share your accomplishments with randoms on the internet, suggests arrogance. I can't imagine a worse trait on the flight deck. Perhaps thats why Cathay wasn't interested!

It is truly is a shame that you have to resort to all this name calling, China, buddy, pal, friend, hombre. I had such high hopes for our friendship!

I don't think [I]most[I]people have problem with cadet programs for inexperienced pilots. Its when the cadet program replaces direct entry schemes is where I have a problem. CX needs future second officers? Get them from the cadet program. CX needs experienced second officers now? Hire them directly! Don't ask 6000hr pilot to come interview and then call them a cadet! Absurd!! Sorry, former DESO poolie.:{

CX rejected me, you say? Once again it shows your ignorance & idiocy. Read & comprehend before shooting your mouth off. All been said many times before but typing slowly for you..... I interviewed for CX & passed at a far higher standard that the pitiful likes of you will be or have been. I was put on hold due the GFC then offered an iCadet job TWICE: Nov '10 & Feb '11.

"Share my accomplishments"? You and fellow sell out VFE ask me questions to challenge why I write what I do, from where or how I form my opinions & you make your pathetic empty accusations toward me. But when you get the answers YOU ask for you find another cesspit to crawl out of to write "sour grapes", "get a girl, or "arrogant".

I can't imagine a worse trait on the flight deck.

And you've formed that opinion based on what? Old mens underwear folding or sock management at the retail store you work at? What experience (but "imagination" as you say) can the likes of you possibility know of what it takes to be a member of a multi crew flightdeck?? So, what is a good trait? Zero to little experience? A "yes man" due no real experience to draw on? A sell out bending over to receive whatever management says? Enlighten us from your rag trade wisdom of multi crew flightdeck ops! The likes of Barbara Kanki & Robert Helmreich must be knocking down your door (in between Folding 101 classes I trust)!

So, "Are You Accepting Their Offer" is the topic of this thread. What are you doing here? You've been offered NOTHING but perhaps an interview!! :ugh:

"Name calling"? Just calling a spade a spade, like the many others on the FH Forum:

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/435060-funny-video-share.html
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour-wannabes/430529-why-i-knocked-back-cathay.html
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/452842-old-t-c-compared-new-ones-second-officers.html
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/444472-fragrant-cadetships.html

Sell out.

hihi & VFE

Do you two have a problem in comprehension? ChinaBeached has already said numerous times he knocked CX back after passing the interview process and being offered a position. I can confirm he and well over 100 other successful applicants have rejected CX’s offer. You two are very good at playing the man. I suggest though you concentrate on the debate.

All been said many times before but typing slowly for you..... I interviewed for CX & passed at a far higher standard that the pitiful likes of you will be or have been. I was put on hold due the GFC then offered an iCadet job TWICE: Nov '10 & Feb '11.

You should stick to typing slowly, as we wouldn't want your fingers getting ahead of your brain now would we? Otherwise you'd end up embarrassing yourself again by calling out other people on their already correct grammar and spelling, whilst your own leaves a lot to be desired! Oh and no need to thank me for the spelling corrections i noticed you made a few posts back. Wouldn't want other people to spot those mistakes eh? (arrogance). Those with a 'back bone' (y'know, the one that you harp on about?) have the integrity to admit when they've made mistakes, instead of trying to hide them.


"Share my accomplishments"? You and fellow sell out VFE ask me questions to challenge why I write what I do, from where or how I form my opinions & you make your pathetic empty accusations toward me. But when you get the answers YOU ask for you find another cesspit to crawl out of to write "sour grapes", "get a girl, or "arrogant".

Arrogant? Just calling a spade a spade, my friend. Such emotion though, and curiously from someone who has already 'made it' in the industry? Why you have the time and inclination to bother continuing to argue semantics with those you consider to be so far beneath you (arrogance) is what really boggles me.

Lets assume you are just _really_ concerned about your worth as perceived by your current employer? If so, you aren't making a very good case for people to support your cause.

@<hidden> 404 Titan - this is no longer a debate, this is feeding the troll!

Idiot.

Read post #74 where I clearly state & admit to the errors. My silly mistake, and openly, publicly admitted to. You call it arrogance, others may call it humility. Once again, a complete failure to comprehend, least of read all information before shooting your mouth off.

Where did I state I consider you beneath me? YOU have alone stated that. If that's your take on things, then so be it. Few will argue you. You'll find overwhelmingly few wishing to be considered on the level of an openly admitted sell out. You openly call yourself a sell out. I'm just agreeing with you.

Not once have you countered an argument but choose to "play the man" as 404 points out. Your defense is only ignorant attacks from a self announced & proud sell out. Other points you've made or raised have been answered but yet again your response are more personal attacks.

Feed the trolls? Now canabalism is your thing? As I've stated before in previous posts: a troll lives in slums beneath bridges existing off the scraps of others. Somehow the term is more apt for one selling out colleagues and an industry by accepting severely lower terms & conditions. And your reasoning? Because you openly claim to be a sell out, happily so. I doubt there is a trough large enough for you to gorge the dregs, leftovers & scraps of an industry you have such exceptionally little idea about.

My perceived worth from my present employer? What the hell has that got a damn thing to do with here? For the record, I'm happy but CX offered (past tense!!) a better long term career, until the likes of you ignorantly chased the dregs of a disgraceful offer from management whereby those with self worth & realisation of what are proper terms & conditions turned it down. You raised the point, there's your answer. Now try to comprehend it (not your best attribute so far).

You want an educated argument with me about my disagreement of the iCadet scheme, then do so. Read my previous posts here & other threads first to save rehashing the same points. Maybe too much to ask for. You have offered no facts or substantial credibility to a single letter you've written: only to proudly admit & call yourself a sell out and draw on personal attacks.

Read post #74 where I clearly state & admit to the errors. My silly mistake, and openly, publicly admitted to. You call it arrogance, others may call it humility. Once again, a complete failure to comprehend, least of read all information before shooting your mouth off.

Hah! I only just noticed that edit. Also noticed it was made long after the original post. Failing to comprehend is not catching your ninja edits? OK! Semantics!

Drawing on personal attacks? Yet you started your post with one. C'mon, are you serious? Do you know what a hypocrite is?

I'll not be looking for anything else you've written because you have absolutely no credibility. Your obvious bias and inability to make a point without resorting to name calling or derogatory comments has made sure of that.

Again: IDIOT!

Read the timings of the posts! Once again FAILURE TO COMPREHEND

Your post #73 mocking my errors in my post #70 is dated 20 June 2011 at 21:25 Z.

My response (#74) is dated 21 June 2011 at 00:50 Z, and edited for typos or content on the same day at 05:36 Z. At 01:09 Z (I'll help you with this, it equals 19 minutes later) you could've attacked the pre-edited post of mine but didn't. I was careful not repeat the same typos or errors. I learn from mistakes.

So, are you that stupid? You (#73) mocked post #70 but now claim I edited post #74 in light of that ridicule or to hide something that had NOTHING to do with the other (#70 or #73)? Whereby in fact it admit & I laugh at my own errors? Are you that much of an utter imbecile? "Ninja editing"? No, idiot. It's there for all the world to see. Not quite stealth then is it?

See kid, aviation is a technical field. Comprehension of facts, background reading & extremely basic detailed analysis of data just isn't your forte! You work in the rag trade. You've found your technical Everest.

Again, you really want to continue this pissing contest? Yeah, semantics: making you look more and more and more stupid every time you post.

Got to go and fly my shiny jet so have fun. Just avoid facts, logical comprehension, technical queries, maths.....well, just keep doing what you're doing. But of course stay true to who you are so proud announce to be: a sell out.

Ok, ChinaBeached i will grant you that. The following edit in brackets didn't catch my attention.

(Must admit to waking & reading the typos / errors & having a laugh...You two seem to be willing to argue the small & trivial points

However, now that you have decided to bring that little gem up, i should probably point out-

It's "alterior", not ulterior. First time I thought a typo, second time? Use spell check otherwise you come across illiterate.

Now if you'll kindly crunch the numbers on those posts (beyond my simple understanding i'm afraid) you'll see that the latter quote, where you made a fool of yourself, was posted well in advance of the former. If you would just calm down, take a nice deep breath and perhaps think before you type, you might just be able to keep track of what it is you have written, and therefore avoid looking like a hypocrite.


draw on personal attacks.

And to top it all off, you accuse me of drawing on personal attacks... and yet

IDIOT

utter imbecile

There are more... much, much more. But by all means, keep at it!

Don't feel the need to leave just yet. I'm starting to enjoy myself!

At dispatch so will be quick, it won't take long.... Yet again, complete FAILURE TO COMPREHEND!!

So, are you that stupid?

Are you that much of an utter imbecile?

These are called "questions" and not "accusations" There is a squiggly thing with a dot underneath at the end of the phrase that defines it is such, not to mention the phraseology. A simple yes or no would've sufficed. (But methinks logical popular opinion will steer its own course here).

This is a direct accusation: IDIOT

This is a statement of fact: SELL OUT
"Fact" because by your own self admission, it is.

Gotta go!

You take the time at dispatch to think of me? How sweet. I'd have thought you'd have much more important things to worry about though... ChinaBeached i am starting to wonder if you even have a job at all! Would you lie to us, China? For shame.

C'mon man, you start your posts with insults - i should not have to quote those for you, if you'd just scroll up the page you'd see that quite clearly. I am trying to help you here, in fact my previous post mentioned that you should slow down, take a deep breath and try to at least keep track of what you have written. You make such a big deal about comprehension, so i figure an intellect such as yours would have no problem comprehending the insanity that your fingers had only just previously spewed forth. Guess not.

From OP:

Survey: Are you accepting their offer?
If you were successful in the last DESO interviews back in 2008 but were placed in a hold pool, will you be accepting CX's latest "final offer" to join as an S/O?

Let's keep it simple, YES or NO?

To stay on topic, VFE / hihi, what are your answers, since both of you were offered a position as DESO (prior airline experience in a multicrew environment), did you accept the offer? Or, you really weren't offered anything yet, but you are just not happy to hear what CX is about nowadays? Which is it?

Ok, I'll make it short: what the F are you doing on this thread again?

Hihi

I totally agree with ChinaBeached. I understand where he is coming from, having worked for 7 years climbing the ladder, looking to one day move to an airline that would be the rest of my career. I probably interviewed a month or two before he did at CX and am one of the last DESOs here. If I was put in the hold pool and then offered a cadet job after over a year, I too would have turned it down. It is an insult to what people who had the experience to get offered a job as a DESO have done to build there expertise and the sacrifises most had to make in doing so.

Let me tell you something that is a fact, this will be read by many CX pilots and any one of them can post if it is untrue.

Not one pilot working at CX thinks this new cadet deal is a good one for an experienced guy to move to Hong Kong for. All pilots at CX, including ex local cadets think this is not a good enough deal to attract real quality experience. Cathay will become a stepping stone airline for guys with little to no experience.

I am not surprised no one accepted the offer as guys with experience know what they are worth and it is a lot more than what is on offer.

Also agree that you appear to be an idiot.

I don't entirely disagree with what ChinaBeached is trying to say, i disagree in the method in which he says it. There is simply no need for insults and comments of a derogatory nature. You two call yourselves professionals? Go on, continue with the mud slinging. It speaks volumes about you.

With three different Second Officer training programs in place (61 weeks, 30 weeks, and 12 weeks), does anyone know which group Cathay is attracting the most of?

Wondering if there are many experienced, ATPL holders accepting the 12 week Transition Training. And if they are finding the required number of candidates they are looking for, or looking at improving the conditions once again?

Virtually 0 for the 12 week course. 60 week course plenty, but CX needs the 12 week guys as you can obviously hire 5 x as many guys over the same 60 week period.

It's not dire enough for CX to improve the package yet, they are looking at other ways to resolve the problem such as 3 crew instead of 4 for long haul, to do this though it looks like they will have to change the P2X rating to a P1X rating, another made up rating between CX and the HK CAD that is only recognized in HK.

And for those not aware of what a P1X rating allows, the SO is permitted to sit in the control seat for t/o & landing but still not permitted to touch the controls. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

Guess which other bastion of high standards of airline safety does this: AIR INDIA. So CX is now stooping that low it seems.

Yet again CX will find a way to manipulate rules & procedures in definition or interpretation and even go so far as to create new ones to suit the chase for profits & managerial bonuses.

What need or desire would CX have to promote an SO to (J)FO when they can occupy that control seat for so much less in renumeration? If anything this would INCREASE time as SO on a P1or2X rating which as mentioned countless times is useless due being unrecognized outside the CX / CAD bed-pal relationship.

Guys, don't blame the young ones(500hrs or less) for taking a job like this if it's offered to them... They are just doing the best they can and it's probably much better than most offers out there for them. How much is an LH cadet on the hook for? If they accept, then they accept the salary degradation for themselves as they have to pay back but are getting in much sooner then they otherwise would.

I am not supporting this, but you guys in your "association" need to stand up for your profession as well as the future pilots. Its your airline. Its just as much your job to stand up to your employer in this issue as it is the young ones. But then you have a rich history of sacrificing your young to ensure your better terms up the list don't you. You ask the young ones to sacrifice but not one of you is willing to put your own job on the line.

Virtually 0 for the 12 week course. 60 week course plenty, but CX needs the 12 week guys as you can obviously hire 5 x as many guys over the same 60 week period.


What would CX have to improve the conditions to, to attract people for the Transition Course you think, and haven't they already improved the conditions once before already since introducing the Cadet program?

I'm not too familiar with the old working conditions at Cathay, would someone be able to compare current and past conditions in terms of salary, hourly pay, housing, etc.

A 3rd yr S/O (on the old expat terms) gets about the same $$$ as a 1st yr Capt (on local terms).

3 Stones....

And what of the banker and doctor who in their late 30's/early 40's have taken the iCadet job? Why? It seems that "Because I used to always look in the air and think how great it would be to be an airline pilot. I have good money saved away, can work on the side as well as being a pilot for CX, so thanks to this iCadet program I can do it" (reference: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/424479-scmp-cadet-article.html)

Updated on Aug 18, 2010 Nelson Chang Way-man and Oscar Francis were members of two very different professions but they had one thing in common: a love of flying.It led the doctor and investment banker to quit their highly paid jobs and join Cathay Pacific Airways' cadet pilot scheme last year with an initial pay potential of about a third of their previous earnings.
Both said their love of flying overcame any financial concerns and the chance to make a living from it was a dream comes true.
Yet while they may be about to realise their dream, others who have been through the same scheme are far less happy. The reason: the terms and conditions for pilots have been changed.

So basically, to be a pilot for CX little things like EXPEREINCE or CREDENTIALS are not needed. Obviously. But! This passion and deep love for the "vocation" wasn't there until it was woken by the CPP? Doesn't add up does it?

Dont blame the "young ones"? I can see what you say, but it these guys' reasoning that is bought into question. (And we see what transpires when this reasoning is challenged).

If they accept, then they accept the salary degradation for themselves as they have to pay back but are getting in much sooner then they otherwise would.

They accept this degradation not only at their own expense but at the expense of others, those at CX and the industry in general. If it was at their own expense entirely then the dislike for the CPP may not be as strong as it is by so many. OK, shoot yourself in the foot, but don't bring everyone else down with you (which is precisely what a few on this forum are quite happy and proud to do). Do you not think this puts huge amounts of pressure on the pilots at CX existing on the former CoS? And what of LONG TERM effects to the profession itself, not just at CX. Again, zero experience, zero credentials (but for minimal flying school time and sim endorsement) are now required to occupy a seat in the cockpit of a widebody jet transport. And prior to being accepted the flying school or ground school isn't even required. All this is a good thing you think?

How much is an LH cadet on the hook for?

Been answered many, many times before in other threads and posts. It's not just the 6 years and risk of the bond payback, but the useless P2X rating, lack of PIC time, lack of total time, lack of hands on experience, financial ramifications of living in HK and money not saved....I personally think at least 10-12 years before being possibly qualified to be considered for your average LCC.

I am not supporting this, but you guys in your "association" need to stand up for your profession as well as the future pilots. Its your airline. Its just as much your job to stand up to your employer in this issue as it is the young ones. But then you have a rich history of sacrificing your young to ensure your better terms up the list don't you. You ask the young ones to sacrifice but not one of you is willing to put your own job on the line.

I couldn't agree with you more. John Warham in his book "The 49ers - The True Story" mentions this as well, ie at what stage is the AoA responsible for the CoS of furture pilots at CX? The AoA has proven time and time and time and time again to be little other than a toothless tiger, always behind the goalposts and rarely proactive at seeing the bleeding obvious. And even worse in that members constantly in-fight for position, rank, etc and those in position use it to only protect their own backsides and CoS: hence the reason why so many (non iCadet) SO's have tried to get voted onto the council so to give a voice to their plight of continued pressure to have their T & C's cut.

If these guys could sit out their time in GA or other and thus force CX to improve the contract they will come to a job that they have EARNED and as such be rewarded for it as a professional pilot should. The min requirements for SO used to be 1000 hrs TT. That's not a real hard slog! And yes, I've heard of a few getting an interview & being successful with that much experience. Everyone would benefit, except for the back pocket of CX and Swires breed of greedy management unable to line their own pockets off of naive kids or such bankers & doctors. And we would hate for that to happen?!

Its all well and fine for someone who has the hours and tickets but those of us unlucky enough to have between 60 and 100 grand in our pockets just for a start we havent got many options other than to say thank you very much to any operator who funds our training even if the conditions are crap compared to what they were but then again looking at the state of the world just having a job seems like it is the most important part of the contract if you cant see that then i afraid maybe its you who "doesn't get it":ugh:

Just a quick correction:

"Its all well and fine for someone who has EARNED the hours and tickets"

Also, add a few full stops / periods into your grammar repertoire to make yourself sound remotely educated.

So, "looking at the state of the world...." as you see it? So you choose to be part of the sell-out for lower remuneration and pitifully low standards, lower safety standards, etc rather than stand up for something better in the industry? Part of the problem vs part of the solution, eh?

And in your eyes of course you're right. "Experience", "Knowledge", "Skill", "Ability", (let's add grammar, reading and writing standards?) are not part of your CV so of course none of us with these things "get it". So of course! CX "get you" because you are naive enough to go for it and defend yourself so vigorously. But you haven't passed any testing yet fella, so don't go back-slapping your self opinionated supreme self worth that lacks all backbone (least of experience in the industry, skill, knowledge....)

Each of your other wondrous posts reeks of the same immaturity, utter lack of grammatical skill and ignorance by the bucket load. Will CX interview me in Heathrow because you know they fly there....? And, filling out the application is all too difficult? Well of course! Seek a "RUMOUR" network for accurate and detailed answers!! GENIUS!! Heaven forbid you have the minuscule amount of insight to call CX themselves to seek a real and accurate and truthful answer!!

Yeah, you have what CX needs right now. Stupid, naive and ignorant.

There are plenty of jobs out there. Just a severe lack of:
a) wannabe pilots with the kahoonas to do the hard yards; and
b) airlines that wish to remunerate those with the skills, experience, etc, etc earned through "hard yards" and other.


(Typo fixed. Sorry to take away the sole source of means to defend hihi's sell out nature and needs to argue from - but thanks WakeUpJeff for steering me on the true and correct path of airline integrity).

It's 'remuneration' CB. :hmm:

they don't want to be pilots, they just want to say that they are pilots ! ! !

It's 'remuneration' CB

I'd have thought he'd have learnt not to do that after making a fool of himself on page four of this discussion, for the exact same reason. Not a quick learner, this one.

Idiot out of myself? Let's just review posts #88 and #89 to highlight what shear and utter stupidity can be defined as.....

Shows your immense abilities to defend your argument: hang your entire argumentative hat and sell-out nature on a typo.

So: "Are You Accepting Their Offer" or are the likes of most of these lazy, self absorbed and ignorant wannabes just jumping on any bandwagon to justify their own opinions? So many times in your other posts you ask the questions and then when get the answers you turn tact to try and dig elsewhere.

We've also gone over meanings of what questions are, accusations and insults..... You have yet to comprehend but only one fact you so proudly display as your profile: a SELL OUT.

hihi, you're a self proclaimed "sell out" where it's been proven time and time again of your complete inability to comprehend facts has been highlighted. So I'm not a quick learner, eh? Odd that the job I do and EARNED is the same one you are so desperate to do: so desperate that you are happy and willing to sell out potential colleagues, airline and industry because any other path to become a professional pilot is just too hard and too difficult to be "learnt". For a slow learner I seem to have been able to progress far, far, far further than you are capable of without needing to whore myself out.

Such omniscience from a rag trade worker who's knowledge of the airline industry is sourced from folding underwear and socks for a living.

I make some silly typos from time to time. Well done you for using that as an entire basis to defend your yellow and spineless nature.

What offer are you kids accepting since none has been offered you? We all know what you are willing to do to screw over the industry as a whole, but what has actually been offered?

Since you (hihi) are such a proud & self proclaimed sell-out, is it not more apt to change your username from hihi to whore-whore? Just asking.... And note this is a "question". A simple yes or no reply could suffice & perhaps a reason could help.

(PS: you may find some typos in this post... Have fun with them and I'm sure in scouring over every word to find them you can be fulfilled that your shear, utter and complete ignorant and selfish views of international airline ops can be defended).

I'm not defending anything, i'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in nitpicking somebody else's grammar, when your own isn't up to scratch. I find it amusing that you feel it is ok for you to make 'silly typos' but it isn't for anybody else. More amusing still is when you try to point out the pettiness of me pulling you up on your typos...

Comprehension? You throw that word around a lot but ironically it seems lost on you. Well done, and i look forward to your next essay.

hihi / haha / whorewhore/ hoho.....whatever.....

There is a vast difference between striking the n key in place of the m key as opposed to entire chapters of zero punctuated, "txt" dribble & incomprehensible crap. It's a solid indictment of calibre CX is attracting. Sort of like yourself.

And don't pretend you stand for something. You're a sell out, and proud of it. You will be for the rest of your life. Your best attribute "IF" (one huge "IF") you get onto CX will be the red nose that will go with the uniform you've disgraced.

just wanted to share a thought....

on a recent long ass flight flying over the middle of nowhere had a really good discussion with the other pilot about the different terms and conditions that the company has for us....we were on different contracts (basing, scale etc etc)

actually turned out to be a very good conversation with a fair amount of friendly banter....

then the conversation came to the topic of the current contract for our cadets (local or international....doesn't matter - no difference)

Now i dont claim to be a genius for having thought of this and i am sure somebody has posted this information before - but just a heads up for the wanna bes out there who are are thinking about Cathay...

there seems to be some people who are telling themselves that they are going to join because the conditions are getting better - they keep mentioning the new HK Pilots allowance as evidence of things improving for cadets...well, guess what? it actually saves the company money years down the road...the current scheme may be a welcoming change but what people are unaware of is that local pilots actually did get a housing allowance (FO and CAPT) and what they were getting on the old scheme is actually MORE than what this new bs scheme has on offer. this is precisely why none of the local pilots getting housing signed over to this new scheme (fair enough, why should they settle for less)?? and now when a cadet joins the company they are automcatically enrolled in the scheme - no choice.

sure great! you start to get a housing allowance sooner in your career but you will never ever be entitled to the old local pilots housing allowance (which is already a shit rip off compared to the expat package). and trust me, we did the math many times taking into account different scenarios and you WILL get significantly less during the course of your career at CX with the new scheme. and you will NEVER be allowed to switch nor will you be given a choice of which package you will get.

Also, for those of you who THINK you will suck it up in HK for a few years and then move to a base....the reality is, the company offers basing as it reduces the amount of expat housing they have to give out in HK....but with the i-cadet program none of you will be on expat housing in the first place!!

I am not old, nor am I bitter - I just wanted to share this information with the wanna be's because on the surface things might APPEAR to be improving when really it is just a PR spin off.

Hope this helps!

just one more thing....I have a good friend who joined as an SO and has been an FO for a couple of years...he is thinking of different options for the future (including EK and a couple of US airlines)....

turns out that all his time as an SO was considered useless by all the other airlines he applied for....and this P2X bs means that his he STILL doesnt have an ATPL....

just something to think about

Flapsupdown: As an experienced CX pilot please answer me these 2 things:

1) what do you or the industry (any industry) call one who feeds off of their colleagues' efforts to increase terms & conditions, all the while standing by & do nothing whilst others fight for them? (I believe the word begins with s & ends with b); and
2) what is the AOA doing about this? (From the sidelines - NOTHING!)

Well may the CX pilots see the bleeding obvious but it's another to actually do something about it.

Not less then 10 days after Contract Complience was avoided did CX announce the freighter deal with AHK... all at the expense of CX seniority & jobs. AOA & CX pilot body response? Pitiful & lame at best. Sorry, not true. This is becasuse NOTHING was done. To show pity or to be lame takes a miniscule of effort, or even perhaps action. Yeah, I read the AOA updates. Disgraceful in their ready-made response & "buggered if I know or care" mentality. Why fight against anything that may pressure "my" conds of service!!??!!

Yell & scream bloody murder in private conversation but we're yet to see a stand about this crap. Yet again CX / Swire management have made suckers out of the pilot group.

Once upon a time CX was the pinnacle of aspiration. Now it's fast becoming (has become) a laughing stock of mediocrity racing to beat the other LCC using "safety " & "standards" as nothing more than a sales pitch.

Nowadays we see a CX crew at the various international airports & comment at their pitiful weakness & self preservation mentality.

Bitter? You damn bet! All I hear from CX pilots is their disgust at the iCadet scheme yet the overwhelming response is ignorant despair because it doesn't affect their own CoS. Welcome to the future that each & every pacifist CX pilot has endorsed.

I thought you turned CX down, CB?

Why do you waste your time as a pilot if the industry sucks so much? You'd make an outstanding politician.

I think hoho works well, what about you?

whorewhore:

Which part of my post indicated ANYTHING contrary to the fact I did interview, was successful & did turn the offer down - twice? Or yet again is your idiocy so paramount that once again you fail to "comprehend"?

And my displeasure at CX? Since when does CX represent an industry wide dislike?? I'm very passionate about my career & still love walking down the airbridge to go to work. It's a joy that you'll NEVER comprehend because you'll not have earned the right to do so. You'll only fill a seat because perhaps you are the cheapest option: nothing more, nothing less (even though you're yet to pass an interview). And what's better I'll never fly with the likes of you who see the degredation of the job as an "opportunity". I know, I know whorewhore that when an inexperienced & naive ignorant sell-out sees CX as the only job in the world that it is all encompassing. Once again it shows your stupidity.

My present job pays better than the CX FO salary but I looked at the job LONG TERM & from there the job used to be LONG TERM better. Small loss in the short term for long term gain. Now that just isn't true. But shiny jet syndrome sell-outs like you are incapable of seeing a LONG TERM picture.

CB, when do you work? You are ALWAYS on here moaning.

In between posts from 26 June to 21 July the roster department has had me quite busy...... So to answer your question I worked A LOT in that time, and now am in between duty periods. Always happy to answer your concerns!

You write on other thread very close to the same time you posted your last one here:

"....the post seems to have gone dead, don't be afraid to post guys."

So it's OK to post so long as it suits your agenda & time frame, otherwise not to? So it's "moaning" when the information & opinions from people with direct CX knowledge & experience, or GA time building, or airline / CX interviews, or regional & international (widebody) airline ops put forward a point of view that doesn't appease the average iCadet's need for justification?

Capt Dart's opinions based on a very long career at CX are also dismissed by the ignorant wannabe section here. Why? Because his vast experience & insight doesn't fit the mould all too many of you seek & need.

When you post your questions try to comprehend that some who answer don't necessarily agree with your stance.

(PS: your question asking "What would be your fleet choice if you were able to choose" has also been asked countless times before. A tiny amount of searching can answer that question. The answer should be the fleet type that offers you the destinations & potential roster patterns most applicable to your wants & needs..... But let's be honest. The answer from most wannabes will probably be the fleet that has the biggest & most shiny bits).

Chinabeached,

Negative opinions are well worth reading. BUT please just make your point and move on. You've made your points now about how you hate wannabees and how they are all selling out. Fantastic. Great. We get it. You've put all of us down and I commend you, you've kept your head held high during your career. Please go and concentrate on your own life now and let others talk about the company, interviews and the contract.

Dangerman

When you post your questions try to comprehend that some who answer don't necessarily agree with your stance.

Come on CB, really? Look at how every comment that challenges anything you say and you're ranting and raving like a nonsensical 3 year old who's lollypop has been taken away.

There are people out there who are worthy of their own opinion, and stop acting as though the world owes you something because you've worked hard, so have millions of other people in the world.

I'm finished with this petty back and forth, and I can guarantee you're going to come back with some long winded argument about some bullsh*t.

Grow up.

I don't "hate" wannabes at all. Once upon a time I was in those shoes & to a large extent I still am. Any pilot who thinks he or she has completely made it & doesn't need to keep working is kidding themselves.

What I do hate is the attitude & reasoning for some decisions. Also, if you read previous posts you'll see I've had some informative discussions.

Lastly, almost all questions asked have been asked & answered ad nausea but too many of you are too damn lazy as to read the 150+ pages, and yet rant about a "passion & commitment".

Let's have a friendly wager? Let's see if here or the other thread within the next 5 pages someone asks:
1) how long does it take for CX to reply to my application;
2) does anyone know how soon they can get a basing;
3) how do you log on to submit or edit the application;
4) which aircraft (engines & other specs) & destinations do CX use & fly to;
5) which fleet would be the best to be on?

Again, the vast majority of wannabes here ignore & belittle the FACTUAL reports & opinions from those with direct & irrefutable experiences in the exact airline & career they seek information about.

Tupps: you're yet another ignorant fool who asks questions yet hasn't the balls to hear the answer YOU requested. You asked me question. You received an answer. Now I have to grow up because the answer didn't suit you? Yeah, that makes sense.

CB - as most ppl have suggested, you need to get a life.

Secondly, in no way was I talking about standing up for conditions etc etc - thats a separate topic all together. also, my comment wasn't to bitch and moan about our conditions - I actually enjoy going to work and doing my 84 hours a month.

I posted my comment to make sure future cadets weren't under the impression that conditions were getting better even though it appeared to be.

Also, I find it offensive and ignorant that you think all of us are sitting there doing nothing - many colleagues and i spend a lot of our own time (during our days off) to work with the AOA to have our voices heard. if the AOA does nothing about it in the end its sad and frustrating but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people put a lot of effort into it. and for somebody who doesn't even work with us to think they have it all figured out - well, guess what, you are a joke and i am happy to know that idiots like you are kept out of our cockpits - i bet you are a pain in the ass and a liability.

"Kept out"??? No. Your airline called me not once, but twice. I turned the "offer" (if that is what you call it) down.

I read all your AOA updates, I read all the DFO and GMO updates... So tell us WHAT has been done about the absolute and undeniable raping of the CX terms and conditions?

I asked you as simple question, to seek your perspective and it looks like I got it. You're holding meetings and coming in on your days off to achieve...what? CoS 08? SLS? AHK Freighter jobs? C-Scale packages? Rostering Practices? FDTL changes? CoS 08 25 year housing allowance guarantees? The AOA has been seen to do NOTHING about the C Scale and iCadet package. That is what is called offensive and ignorant. And why should they?

After all, you're alright aren't you so why bother to protect the future terms and conditions of the pilots, of the pilots' future as a whole? You enjoy your job, your salary package, your 84 hrs a month so screw what the others are getting and have to do. And if you think I'm alone in this belief then go down to any number of bars in Central or SoHo, etc and mention or discuss what the pilots really believe about the AOA's strength and usefulness. What next? Threaten M'ment CC in another 12 or 13 years?

The last AOA update received 21st July..... More talk about C-Scale and the implications. Actions? Proposed actions? Ideas? Clues? Hints? "We at the AOA believe that....and intend to counter this degradation of terms and conditions by....." Nothing....Dribble and banter stating the bleeding obvious. By doing NOTHING then the AOA is seen to be idle. It took the AOA how many years to finally threaten CC for pay rises that were long, long, long overdue. And then.... AHK! You showed them!

A pain the arse? Probably. Because I don't settle for second best and speak up against all this BS. I voted with my feet and refused to be treated like that. A liability? In your eyes, your opinion. CX Recruitment didn't seem to think so. Neither did the ME carriers, or the contracts in Europe.

So, what is the AOA doing about the C Scale package? I'll start a new thread so as to avoid a greater divergence here.

If you've got nothing to do with CX, how is it that you can read all of the management updates and AoA updates? Are they publicly emailed?

Many, many friends at CX.

Plus most are also accessible via a simple google search anyway.

The fact of the matter is...there are lots of people like you who think they are better than everyone else and therefore deserve better...

but there are more people out there who are happily accepting these degraded conditions...and unless this changes there is not much more we can do

people love listening to what they want to hear and then go ahead and spread this info...like how we are so short on crew that everyone will be in overtime in august (turned out to be false) and that nobody is accepting the offer and crew control is becoming really desparate....

well in reality everything is business as usual and there are more people who are accepting the offer than those who are sucessful then turn it down...

and like i said, as long as people are accepting the offers the comoany won't see a reason to budge.

Why is it that someone who doesn't even work for CX feels the need to crap all over those who want to? And when questioned you rant and rave like a lunatic. It beggars belief that they let people like you loose at the controls of a jet.

Good on you for voting with your feet - but constantly reminding everybody of that fact only detracts from the act and makes you sound like a proper blowhard.

I look forward to your continued abuse 'comprehension LOLOL' spam.

lol well said.

also, if you dont work for CX and you really did turn down their offer, why does it matter to you at all what the AOA is doing to stand up to the C scale.

once again, get a life.

whorewhore: remind everyone? No. People ask me questions regarding the reasoning for my beliefs & I answer them. If that has been repeated a few (many?!) times then it shows more of the asker's failure to research more than my reasoning to answer.

And you'll see that those I have an issue with are precisely the likes of YOU who openly state screw the standards, screw the ramifications, screw what this will do to the airline or industry.... It's all about ME and thank Christ for lowering of standards otherwise you wouldn't stand a chance.

And find BUT ONE post of mine claiming to be better than anyone else. What I'll staunchly defend is the lowering of the profession & attitude that it's OK & the despicable attitude defending this trend. This bull$hit took away all that i worked for & went through to achieve. Worse still, those who see it as a great "opportunity".

Self proclaimed sell-outs like whorewhore can only apply due m'ment's methodology of bastardising the HK RDO. Ooops! Yet another issue the AOA was sucker punched on.

Flaps.... The latest AOA update clearly states the problems of recruiting appropriately qualified & experienced pilots owing to this C Scale & HKPLA. You should pay more attention to the meetings you attend on your day off. Then again, why would you care? YOUR package is OK!! So screw the legacy or responsibility for the future. As a card waving member you seem to stand for little other than self preservation.

Look, if you want a debate with FACTS that can condratict my opinions & research then do so. Some have & I appreciate it. But the mere mention of the HK RDO leaves sell-outs like whorewhore be-dazzled...All the while being the methodology CX used & reason the likes of whorewhore are able to even apply.

And tbe AOA's stance? Caught napping & toothless. Again.

Flaps: there's another thread for this discussion. Already one of your colleagues has commented. But true to form, pretend it doesn't exist, ignore & place head in sand. Looking forward to another AOA update telling us the sky is blue.

Just saw your support of whorewhore. Perfect. Sums it up well. A self proclaimed sell-out support by an AOA flag waver. One who stands for nothing & the other who supports the downturn in T&C's via spineless inaction. Decide if you can who is who.

once again, you seem to be under the impression that people care about what you think.

Here is a fact: you don't, and never will work for Cathay, so why don't you spend your time doing something more productive??

Again, no.

The fact is that with a simple phone call or email I could.

But I refuse to. C Scale & the protection of the AOA? Nah. Unlike whorewhore I know what I'm worth, know the history of CX & the AOA & see this as the insulting mess for what it is. As I've said on countless occasions, my integrity isn't up for sale.

(You've gotta have it to defend it).

It's getting just a tad mirky, eh? Sell-outs & those at the AOA who endorse it??? Complacent inaction speaks louder than anything else at present. Enjoy your career at CX defecating on the backs of the sell-outs satisfying & protecting your needs. I "choose" not to.

I'm sure John Warham would be proud to drink with the likes of you. (Sarcasm... Had to define that because whorewhore's literary ability suffers frequently. Then again, this is the future you endorse).

So, sleep well at night (& you will) in the knowledge that your acceptance & inaction to stand up against this bull$hit allows you that beer at Stauntons.

To add to the recent posts, please Chinabeach, spare us any further posts. You have made your point and are now simply descending into repetitiveness and " policing " the forum in a very churlish manner.

You don't work for CX, but appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder against them!! Remind yourself of the purpose and name of this forum. You are doing no one any favors with your continual ranting, sanctimonious attitude, and your overwhelming need to have the "last word "

Give us a break for goodness sake!!!

This is not the Chinabeach Forum

To save you from more repetitiveness, please answer me this:

1) how long will it take for CX to respond to my application?
2) what aircraft do CX use?
3) where do they fly to?
4) when can I get a basing?
5) when will I become a Captain?

A massive chip? Hell yeah! When all you've worked for is raped & pillaged and sold off to the lowest bidder & applicant you may one day feel the same.

But if you are successful at CX be sure to join the AOA because rest assured they'll protect your contract!!!!!

In the mean time please argue with FACTS in lieu of ignorant opinion founded on a sales pitch.

I'll give you a break: get off your arse & turn off the computer then none of this can affect your cocoon identity.

You really have some serious issues. FACT

CB. Thank u for prompt response. I rest my case ! Q.E.D.

QED??? NFI.

Anyway... So tell me. I argue against the lowering of the industry standards as well as the raping of the terms & conditions yet so many of you disagree with me.

The lower the better? The less pay the better? After all, that's what you are arguing against.

Tupps: defend your point. What FACTS are you using? A mention of the word doesn't qualify you the knowledge let alone application.

Ipuk: The name and the purpose of this forum / thread: "Are You Accepting Their Offer?" What offer has been made to you? What did you do? (We all know what you would do to screw over the airline and industry). Or are you just hoping, waiting, seeking a lower standard to allow yourself the desire to lower the job's standards and worth? This is the purpose and name of this specific thread. So if no offer has been been made, what right have you to comment? You raised this point.

I would just like to say thank you to CB for their oh so personal messages but unfortunately I deleted them with my oaf like fingers could they please resend them for further analysis by my friend he is a phsychiatrist who took a deep seated intrest in CB after reading one of their more colourful and longwinded rants :D

No.

Stupidity should not be rewarded.

Plus I dare say my use of punctuation may confuse you.

Definitely a man with issues. After a bit of detective work, i found a recent video of ChinaBeached staunchly defending the lowering of the profession.

&#x202a;angry german kid&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube


So young for a pilot too? Well done CB, your parents must be so proud.

Gotta say whorewhore, VERY funny. At last you've developed a sense of humour.

But are my parents proud? They say so.

And yours?

"Whorewhore, why are you applying to CX?"
"Well mumsie, father.... Since CX doesn't see the need for experience, qualifications of knowledge anymore I am eligible to interview."
"Really? And is this a good thing for international airline standards & safety?"
"Mumsie, father, this does not concern me."
"And the salary?"
"Well, I'm undercutting the market by as much as 60% over a potential career. I don't care about the well being of the industry as a whole. I'm just looking out for myself and screw everyone else. Well, at least that's what I've told everyone on that pprune forum! I proudly tell all I'm a sell-out and even display it on my public profile."
"That's our son! A true selfish, ignorant sell-out!! We are so proud!!"

Or, xx amount of years later:
"Dad, what's the difference between right and wrong?"
"Well son/daughter.... You see if something is difficult or can be thought of as 'too hard' then it is more likely wrong. If there is a cheaper and nastier way to do something then it will be the right way. Under no circumstances defend standards when you can actively lower them in a deliberate and self serving manner. This is the entire and soul reason I was even able to apply for a job. After all, I'm raising you to be a sell-out like your dear old dad here. Sell-out your colleagues and industry if that is what it takes."

Please, this has become very tedious and extremely boring!!! Instead of slagging everybody off can we please just stick to the facts about the package etc so people can make up their own mind about it rather than just shouting out abuse about being ignorant and a sell out. Everyone will see your thoughts on this over the last god knows how many posts about the same thing. Please, please, please let's have some constructive conversations for once :ugh:

You got me searching on YouTube & found this, so enjoy: (If I'm not mistaken, is that you whorewhore at 00:26 seconds??)

&#x202a;Discount Airline Pilot Guy&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube

Wow, CB, i am surprised. Here i was thinking i'd get an essay worth of 'sell-out', 'COMPREHEND', 'IDIOCY', and talk of folding old mens underwear (i don't work in a clothing store, btw). Unfortunately the video isn't nearly as entertaining as watching you lose the plot.

Oh and thats not me at 00:26, i'm at 00:04, the guy on the right.

I think the package is good. FO earns 93,000HK$ / month. Prob take 2-3yrs to get to that stage from second officer. I have 3000tt.
What do you guys reckon?

FO earns 93,000HK$ / monthlol, where'd you get that from?
Prob take 2-3yrs to get to that stage from second officerThat's gold Jerry, GOLD

I think the package is good

then u are an idiot

FO earns 93,000HK$ / month

funniest thing i have heard for a very long time!

Prob take 2-3yrs to get to that stage from second officer

2nd funniest thing i have heard in a long time

I have 3000tt

i doubt it

What do you guys reckon?

grow a brain and get a life

Blogsey. It is stated in the Terms and conditions Package that you recieve when getting an interview. So yes it is 93,000hk/mnth for FO,
48,000hk/mnth for SO.

Jizzmonkey. I've got close to 4000hrs with 2000 hrs twin turbine plus university degree. So no not an idiot. I don't think so anyway haha. I got a good chance I've had more aviation jobs and experience then you by the sounds of things....but getting off topic there.

Why is 93,000 funniest thing you've heared for FO? it is stated... full stop.
Dont specualte or put your wrong spin on it. it is there black and white.

Prob take 2-3 yrs as SO before being promoted to FO. How is that funny Jizzmonkey? I have friends in Cathay, 4th yr SO, he is in process of getting upgraded. He told me its more than likely it will only take 2 yrs for me due to expansion, which he wasnt too happy about but understands as he is a cool guy haha. Also Talked to 2 Ex cathay veterens, they reckon prob be as low as 18months as SO. So yeah they would have 30,000hrs between then so more likely to listen to them then you.
As previously stated yeah i do have that many hours, thats why im so good at sifting through the BS and listening to the right people.
Grow a brain and get a life? ok buddy that is not really a mature or helpful response. that statement is more of, i dont have anything else to chuck at you so take that...

Dont respond and start going off in tangents and speculations and so forth, just state it how it is in each point form. Not just an essay showing your dodgy attitude and try and include some actual figures if you wish to keep debating.

SFO 6 ( FO for TEN years ) monthly salary just over 80000 hkd per month. 93000 is bullsh*t

93000, got it right in front of me, this includes the HKPA though

Ah, who knows what that'll be in 15 years. I suspect 93000 has fooled you into thinking that's what you'll get.

built4flying83
Blogsey. It is stated in the Terms and conditions Package that you recieve when getting an interview. So yes it is 93,000hk/mnth for FO,
48,000hk/mnth for SO.

Bullsh*t.
SO year 1 = HK$35170
FO year 1 = HK$70165

Jizzmonkey. I've got close to 4000hrs with 2000 hrs twin turbine plus university degree. So no not an idiot. I don't think so anyway haha. I got a good chance I've had more aviation jobs and experience then you by the sounds of things....but getting off topic there.
I wouldn't go wagging willies with most of the DE pilots here. Most would easily have had more experience than you when they joined as DESO's.

Why is 93,000 funniest thing you've heared for FO? it is stated... full stop.
Dont specualte or put your wrong spin on it. it is there black and white.
I would suggest you either have a reading problem or it is you spinning the BS. Those of us here have the COS of service and the numbers you are quoting are wrong. FACT

Prob take 2-3 yrs as SO before being promoted to FO. How is that funny Jizzmonkey?
As has been pointed out current SO's are upgrading in 4 years. How do you come to the conclusion that you would upgrade in 2-3? It the last 15 years upgrades have only been getting longer. When I started it was 18 months. With the introduction of 2 x SO's on all long hall flights the requirement for FO's will only decrease but the requirement for SO's will double. Upgrades will likely blow out to 6-8 years because of this not decrease. Your so called CX friends (I personally don't think you have any) don't know what they are talking about. Most of the aircraft on order are replacements not additions. FACT.

You do realise thought that when you upgrade it is to JFO not FO. Year 1 JFO = HK$53958. Even taking into account the HKPA and HDP your numbers still are wrong.
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

I've got close to 4000hrs with 2000 hrs twin turbine plus university degree.

WOW uni degree, you must be REALLY smart then. Sounds like Qantas would be better suited to your intellect.

So no not an idiot.

yes, you are.....

I got a good chance I've had more aviation jobs and experience then you by the sounds of things

you can come to that conclusion over just one post, you really are smart!

Dont specualte or put your wrong spin on it. it is there black and white.

you are in for a real shock, dont say i didnt tell you so......

Prob take 2-3 yrs as SO before being promoted to FO. How is that funny Jizzmonkey? I have friends in Cathay, 4th yr SO, he is in process of getting upgraded. He told me its more than likely it will only take 2 yrs for me due to expansion, which he wasnt too happy about but understands as he is a cool guy haha. Also Talked to 2 Ex cathay veterens, they reckon prob be as low as 18months as SO. So yeah they would have 30,000hrs between then so more likely to listen to them then you.

ahhhh, yep, your still an idiot.

As previously stated yeah i do have that many hours, thats why im so good at sifting through the BS and listening to the right people.

WOW, I stand in awe.........your still an idiot


now mods can i get banned please.......

It's not all made up and bull it is just what the company has handed out.

SO - 48K
JFO - 71K
FO - 93K

That is including the HKPA.

As far as upgrade time goes isn't it obvious as pilots that this changes with the tides? So who knows what it will be in a few years from now. However with the implementation of the two SOs long haul that would lead one to believe that it will only get longer for now.

Yep,

Those are the figures I saw at the company briefing too. Those guys sure did jump in thinking they new everything with the criticism too. LOL. Oh pprune.....:ugh:

93000, got it right in front of me, this includes the HKPA though

Well if you look at it that way then current JFO's are getting 54000+64000 (about what housing is at the moment) so that's a total of 118K per month.

I think the package is good
Do you? I hope that UNi degree and 4000 hrs with lots of different companies makes you realise that you'd be doing the same job as me on less than half the salary which means you are an idiot as others have already mentioned.:D

built4flying83, Dangerman12 & mtc

I could quote my payscale + Hourly Duty Pay + Housing but that isn't my salary. You try going into a bank for a home loan and see what the response will be if you try that one over them. They are only interested in your payscale. Period.

For the record your payscale is contractual, ie the company must pay you this per month.

Hourly duty pay is subject to how much flying you do per month. On quiet months, leave or sick leave you get less or no HDP.

HPA is subject to company policy. In other words the company can give-ith and take-ith at its own discretion and there is nothing you can do about it.

The only reason the company is quoting these missleading figures is they are desperate. Your real payscale doesn't include HDP or HPA. Period.:ugh:

Not to get caught up with the same old tired argument, but I can tell you for a fact that you are able to use HKPA as income regarding mortgage application.

ETOPs is correct. You can use the housing allowance for mortgage capacity calculations. Most reputable lending houses in HK are aware of the CX situation and how to make it work.

BUT!

What idiot of a financial advisor or applicant would not read the FINE PRINT of the HKPLA and housing allowance to see that both are taxable, hence the need to consider the net figure. But most importantly the housing allowance IS NOT factored to CPI and housing cost fluctuations which only seem to go in one direction: a massive 22% increase recently. So that $10k HKD per month, less (say) 15% tax since it is deemed "income" while charged against a mortgage, and then is worth 22% less (from the latest figure) from the year before. Let's multiple that loss in real terms over the length of a mortgage? That $36k you get after gaining a Cmd could / would more than likely be worth less than the original $10k you started with!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, you guys have really done your homework and see the BIG PICTURE and take into ALL logical considerations. We laugh and mock the idiots who fall for internet scams offering stupid investment opportunities yet when it comes to this iCadet sham you fail to do any resemblance of due diligence into an entire career-based decision. Oooo! But it's "FREE!!" If it's too good to be true? Oh, that doesn't apply here of course..... because CX have such a long & illustrious history of upfront, honest and moral dealings with the pilot body.

It's a scam and a slap in any professional pilot's face. Pure and simple.

Guys I am new 2oo this site , I had applied for cathay pacific cadet program in the month of may 2011 and just got an email stating that the selection process for your area has been completed and we wud call you for the next selection process. Anyone has any idea when is the next selection process

What idiot of a financial advisor or applicant would not read the FINE PRINT of the HKPLA and housing allowance to see that both are taxable, hence the need to consider the net figure.

Who said they didn't?

Rather than policing a forum that you have absolutely nothing to do with, why don't you bugger off and try to help your fellow American pilots pick up the pieces with their laughable 'legacy' packages.

I have nothing to do with the cadet programme, but unlike you, and the other broken records who I'm ashamed to call my colleagues, I realise that it is here to stay. It is better than what's out there for the vast, vast majority of pilots.

For Christ's sake, as a year one SO you make more than many US Regional captains. It takes many years to become a regional captain. Let's not forget that although the payscale at CX isn't what it was, it knocks the US carriers out of the water.

In Europe, there is nothing. Nothing, shy of buying a type and paying to work. Or, working for the great FlyBe for 24k. You pretend to know about the RAF pilots situation? That they aren't taking it because of the conditions? Absolute rubbish. I personally know one of them, and he knows pretty much all of them. Many of them aren't pursuing it, because they aren't pursuing civil aviation. Those that are, are flocking to the CX package. Why? Because there is NOTHING out there that comes close. As a former Officer in HM armed forces, I can assure you that given the conditions we serve(d) under, Ts & Cs would not be an issue to these ladies and gents.

You sound like an ignorant idiot, who thinks that your US way is the only way. The well trodden GA path doesn't work everywhere else. It's not a case of GA being too hard; GA barely exists in Europe.

While you pretend to know what's going on, it's easy to see that you don't. Please just sod off and leave others to it.

I'm sorry, but while I realise that it is a big step down from the B scale (which in turn was a large step down from A scale), all it has done is brought it to parity with other major world carriers.

Now, I know this may all read as something personal, and to an extent, it is. But, you're spouting drivel, on every CX thread. You don't belong here. You have no interest here? That's fine. Nobody has an interest in you and your opinions. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're a bitter, poisonous clown with nothing better to do than to put people off a career, based on untruths and what your got from 'AOA and GMO updates'.

Please. **** off.

To anyone considering it. Do your homework, obviously. When you decide that you can make it work, don't come one here. Why? Because there is CB, who is so bitter, he can't see straight, and about 3 other CX pilots, of which some post under several usernames. All they do is conspire and complain.

There are nearly 3000 pilots in CX. Each one that I've worked with has been an absolute joy. The job is great. The upgrade time to JFO will be under 3 years for a new joiner. Mark my words. 2 SO long haul is not happening. That again is rumour spouted by a handful of insecure wankers with vested interest.

As for money - anyone who's lived in a big City will be able to judge it. Can you do it on this package? Easily. Will it be potentially tough initially? Possibly, if you want to live close in. Don't worry about the package. It is on par with other huge international carriers, pretty much all of which take a decade or more's worth of experience to join.

My advice is not to worry about the money. A calculator and a few minutes will answer your questions on that. Just like any other job. I advise wannabes to focus their research efforts on the cultural/non financial aspects of living in HK. You'll be fine for cash. But, you're moving to another country/continent, where lifestyle and culture will likely be vastly different to what you're used to. People are different. Food is different. Mentality is different. Weather is different. Protocol is different. Shopping is different. Everything is different. Unless you want to live in DB. Which you don't.

These are the things that you need to be considering. I personally love it. I'm extremely fond of HK. I've lived all over the world, but certainly consider HK home. That said, I did my research. I visited several times, and spoke to a huge number of people. I embrace the place for what it is, not what I think it should be. I've learnt the language, I eat what they eat. I think you get my picture. My point being that no amount of money will make you enjoy your life here, if you don't like HK. That is the dealbreaker folks.

ETOPS240
2 SO long haul is not happening. That again is rumour spouted by a handful of insecure wankers with vested interest.
I have heard that from at least three sources now on the third floor, including at a fleet forum. The company realise that three crew, i.e. 2 x FO and 1 x Capt having to spend 48 hours down route costs the company more than 2 x SO, 1 x FO and 1 x Capt only having to spend 24 hours down route. Remember 3 man ULH under the new CAD 371 must be crewed with 2 x FO’s and 1 x Capt. SO’s aren’t permitted. All the company is saving is the cheapest person on the flight deck but losing three days productivity for the three crew and having to pay for six hotel nights and allowances rather than four. Having said all that though, I originally thought that the companies desire to introduce a P1X rating was to get around the five year life of a P2X rating and this is still probably part of the reason. The main reason is that the company are seriously considering Cruise FO’s to replace SO’s, i.e. exactly the same as an SO i.e. cruise only, COS etc except they will be the second “FO” on three man ULH. The requirement for P1 rated FO’s is still greatly reduced though hence upgrade to full FO will blow out but the productivity aspect is greatly, (not totally) alleviated. My personal opinion after running the sums is that the numbers still don’t quite stack up for three man ULH, hence the companies application to the CAD to have a FTLS variation for a 24 hour layover instead of 48 hours for three crew ULH. The company must prove though to the CAD that the change is as safe regarding fatigue as a 48 hour rest, something I think they will struggle to prove as the evidence is overwhelming against it.
The upgrade time to JFO will be under 3 years for a new joiner. Mark my words.
I notice you are an SO here and I can understand your desire to see upgrade times reduce. The fact of the matter is that since the introduction of SO’s in the early 90’s with the exception of the first few batch’s of contracted SO’s, upgrade times as a whole have only got worse. Even during times of rapid expansion the times only briefly came down by about six months but that was it. With the companies planned crewing compliment the requirement for P1 rated FO’s irrespective of whether we have 3 or 4 crew ULH, will be greatly reduced even with the planned expansion over the next 10 years.

By the way I have no problem with iCads per say. All I want is to see them on the same COS as you and I.

Whoaa! Struck yet a another nerve ETOPS?

You defend your position as do I defend mine. Plain and simple. And just like the many, many iCadets wannabe's and present day sell-outs you deem all others who speak out against and bring up real facts like the housing not being CPI factored, the costs of living, the P2X rating, the year in, year out increases in housing costs.... If the argument doesn't suit YOUR agenda then we should all "p!ss off" and leave you to your self indulgent sold out rubbery spine? So half truths are OK, but daring to elaborate on the full facts is not? How dare I support you that the HKPLA and housing allowance is usable toward a mortgage, and then go and add the truths about the real value of it owing to the real facts of the contract and HK housing costs!!!

Those MANY of us who argue against have an "agenda" and are "wankers" as such? Do YOU not have an agenda in your argument then? If so, that makes you a w@<hidden> as defined by yourself. It's called inductive reasoning. Look it up.

And you honestly think that there are only a few here who disagree with what you and the others have done to the job at CX, and / or you endorse? Open your childish and pathetic eyes to the other forums and threads. I know, I know.... too hard!

Rather than policing a forum
And then what do you call your post?

In Europe, there is nothing. Nothing, shy of buying a type and paying to work. Or, working for the great FlyBe for 24k.
Nothing? Absolutely NOTHING but for pay-for-rating-and hours jobs? And you dare think CX are not getting the iCadets to pay for their own rating, etc via the HUGE loss in remuneration and bond?? Simple maths of what is was and what it is, use the difference and see if that is more or less what an endorsement costs at the many facilities around the world. A320 or 73NG endorsements can be gotten for $10-12k, and 777 or 330 for not much more... "IF" one chooses to do some research. (Ooops! Dirty word!!). CX have made that money back many times over via the reduced T's & C's in this iCadet package.

There are jobs but because of this illustrious iCadet package you say they're all dried up in the wavering of CX's management pen that created the iCadet package? And what did so many, many THOUSANDS of pilots do before the iCadet offer? Oh, I forgot. There was no world before it. There are jobs out there. MANY, MANY jobs out there. Some airlines require at least 500 hrs TT for a RHS in an A320 or 73NG, but a majority of other jet jobs more: from 1000-1500hrs TT. Even CX's pre-iCadet minimums were 1000 hrs TT for DESO!!!!!!! So, a potential 18 months to 2 years of "too hard" hour building could've gained an applicant respect and the same remuneration with their CX colleagues. That's a long time considering the amount of "CX hasn't responded to my application and it's been THREE WEEKS!! What will I do??!! Who can I email??!!"

And, building hours in the RHS of a jet earning anywhere from $6-12k USD a month, tax free (depending on the contract). Yet you still scream iCadet SO at CX is the best deal going. It shows your utter lack of research.

I have several colleagues who managed to build their time in the UK and Europe as instructors, flying across the ditch in light twins, doing charter work, and some landed jobs very quickly into the RHS of jets. So all those other THOUSANDS of pilots from the UK and Europe were full of crap about ever working in these "non existant" jobs? Some even had the balls to go overseas to pursue their career and build their hours. (I know, I know.... too hard). Well in your eyes, of course! And why should they when there is a cheaper, nastier and quicker way to do it; all at the expense of self worth, the airline and industry.

And to highlight your still imbecilic method of being able to argue from fact, you call me a yank. Shows your pathetic ability to read all before shooting your mouth off. IDIOT.

why don't you bugger off and try to help your fellow American pilots pick up the pieces with their laughable 'legacy' packages.
Because I'm not one you ignorant fool who has thus proven your incapability of doing the most minuscule of background reading before jumping in head first. I suppose you only read the first few pages of your FCOM(s) & not bother with the other few hundred pages because the rest of them & the FCTM, SOPs, FPPM, etc, etc must all be the same.....

And for the record, you go sprouting crap about the US and the legacy carrier volatility and scene there then you could be in for big trouble at any number of airline bars around the globe. In relation to CX, what's worse? Seeing how a legacy carier can screw over it's pilots due an unscrupulous, greedy and immoral management, as well as a union sitting on the sidelines allowing it all to happen? Or not learning from history and watching it unfold right before your own eyes right now? (Gotta remove that head from the sand first). History repeats when you allow it to.

And for the record "buggering" was something your nation was privy to, especially in the public school system. (Urban Dictionary: bugger (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bugger))

....I'm ashamed to call my colleagues,
You don't need me to tell you the feeling is vastly in the majority of the way CX pilots and the entire industry feel about the likes of you.

You pretend to know about the RAF pilots situation?
Find BUT ONE of my posts stating that I EVER mentioned that. That makes you a liar.

based on untruths and what your got from 'AOA and GMO updates'.
Really? Find BUT ONE post of mine sprouting an "untruth" where I have used the AOA / GMA / DFO updates as my source. Again: liar. Or should we look at your great "bugger" of a hero from the DFO's latest update where it states "The cadet programme continues to be an important recruitment stream but one which also fulfills our goal of providing the opportunity for young people in Hong Kong to engage in aviation." The DFO claims it's for "young people in HK" yet "buggered" out it seems to any unsuspecting kid clueless as to the real affects on the industry, airline or career. Read your own damn hero's updates and use some of your own damn common sense. Difficult since you've been proven unable to.

about 3 other CX pilots, of which some post under several usernames
No, not me. Clutching at straws here aren't we? But if you try to make such ignorant accusation enlighten us with the logic you draw this conclusion from. Or is it more a case that ANYONE who has a differing opinion to you must be a one off? Again, try to read the many other threads. First pull your head from your "buggered" ar$e as not all is written on the Wannabe forums. By far the pilots with experience of CX and the industry are in a huge majority against this rubbish you defend so vehemently. Go and look at the MANY people offering their reasons and experience to argue against it!! Or of course you'll claim they are all one in the same person. Idiot. Instead the pilots you support tell anyone with experience to "p!ss off and retire". Admirable. Classy. Respectful.

My advice is not to worry about the money.
Such marvelous advice!!! Did you not run Lehman Bros in a previous career? After all, who needs money when there's a big shiny jet involved?

So ETOPS.... Answer this: Is the iCadet housing allowance factored to CPI pressures? YES or NO?

If NO, will the net or real value of the monthly allowance be worth LESS if the property valuations in HK rise due such CPI influences? YES or NO?

If the real value of the allowance is seen to decrease does this make for BETTER or WORSE living standards for the lessee or mortgage owner?

Is the CX CPP / iCadet a GOOD THING for the pilot body, the airline and industry as a whole or a BAD THING?

Have standards been RAISED or LOWERED?

After all, this was the basic premise of the discussion until you got on your "buggered" high horse to sprout lies in order to discredit me, ill-gotten conclusions in defense of a package that has raped the pilots T&C's at CX and drawn a further sword into the back of the industry as a whole. "Oh!! But the money is better than doing other things!!? Sounds like the exact same argument a hooker uses.

You are happy to sprout your loud voice yet unwilling to allow anyone else an opinion that differs from your self-sanctifying agenda. Where my facts have been wrong I have happily & readily accepted them. As yet, your unconscionable attack offers nothing to warrant that.

Like 404Titan: I have no problem with iCadets as such. In fact the complete opposite. My entire argument is against the severe detriment to pilot and industry T&C's. CX are using the iCadet scheme for a money grab: nothing more, nothing less: all in a time of record profits. In the same voice it is disturbing and insulting to see the quality of applicant the iCadetship seems to attract based on their posts here on pprune alone. I trust the CX system weeds that rubbish out. The last bone of contention is the argument defending their decision: it's too hard anywhere else / there are NO other jobs / the money is great compared to anything else / the training is free & without chains / what does an SO actually do....and so on, and so on, and so on.

Hey Chinabeached.....good points but....
http://images4.cpcache.com/product_zoom/178428044v8_480x480_Front_Color-AshGrey_padToSquare-true.jpg

Eloquent and concise! :D

But what other opinion could you possibly expect from a guy chasing the race to the bottom to be an iCadet....? You seem to have the same capacity to research before mouthing off as the last attacker, judging from your recent and previous posts:

26 June, 2011
I'm not too familiar with the old working conditions at Cathay, would someone be able to compare current and past conditions in terms of salary, hourly pay, housing, etc.
Been answered countless times before but you couldn't be bothered to a) research your own facts from a credible source, and b) too lazy and unprofessional to review the past answers to the exact same question.

For a QR SO position:
Where are the initial interviews and do you have to pay for your way over? (From Canada)
Genius. Ask a "RUMOUR" network!! Of course to call QR themselves would be way too logical. After all, they may only offer you cold hard facts. Rumours are best served when looking for a career.

9 May, 2011:
1.) On top of regular salary, what are the per diems, hourly flight pay, overnight pay, and 13th month salary??
2.) New hires on the cadet/SO, what routes are they mainly flying??
3.) If one was to enter the 12-week transition training, does that still involve training on a single engine piston aircraft??
4.) Can anyone provide housing links in HKG??
Same reply as the pathetic quest for cold hard facts as per the QR SO position. At the VERY least try googling the "apartments to rent Hong Kong" or call CX HR department instead. Just a suggestion.

For a guy with a supposed 3400 hrs TT (no jet, Q400 apparently) you are sure out-played by the many kids out there with zero. But by far the most pathetic thing about you is that you actually (apparently) have more than enough hours for a DEFO position at many airlines in Asia where you would earn substantially more money. You just seem to prefer a CX iCadet SO position and help lower the credibility of the airline and profession.

And so on, and so on..... Shear genius. Thanks for putting me in my place! But since we're about using pretty quotes, try this one from Mark Twain:
“It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.”

PS: Double check the status of that nose gear before landing that Q400.....

Don't worry about ChinaBeached. His life seems to revolve around coming on here and blowing a head gasket. He knows very little about CX, has zero to do with CX, and is too bitter to see straight. You'd do well to put him in your ignore list, that way his repetitive drivel won't appear on your screen.

ETOPS is RIGHT! If you don't like another's point of view you best not to listen to it. It worked for General Custard!

Still you are incapable about answering the simple questions I asked you. Of course! Because you choose to "ignore" those opinions not falling into your shot glass of required knowledge and information.

But at last he did some tiny bit of reading: I do not work for CX. Never said I did and in fact have stated it MANY times.

But do know a lot about CX. See I "researched" before asking any STUPID and IGNORANT questions on a RUMOUR network before and during the time I applied for the DESO job. And if "seeing straight" requires a person to crap on his own colleagues, own self worth and industry as a whole then I'm a blind man in your opinion: and proud to be. Integrity isn't for sale to the lowest bidder. Others' it seems is, only if the price is low enough.

You call me "bitter"? When you see all that you worked for and sacrificed flushed down the toilet for petty & immoral greed by the same airline you chased since day 1 and the jobs go to "txt" typing illiterates and ignorant fools unable to research or study basic information or material about the job they are so "passionate" about, then you may be too. On the other hand, I made my choice and I sleep VERY well at night knowing that I did not detract from the industry I am so passionate about and work so hard in. My choice and that is something I am FAR from bitter about. I don't expect the likes of you to ever understand.

I know what my profession is worth and refused the offer (twice) to join the likes of this race to the bottom. On the other hand the likes of ETOPS and other wannabe's are desperately jumping in head first: ignorant and naive at best. Your life. Your conscience.

"Daddy, how did you get into CX?"
'See son/daughter, they lowered the entry requirements to zero experience and reduced the salary by around 60%. Many previous applicants turned down the offer or stopped applying completely. Therefore the likes of me qualified. I do the same job but for up to 60% less. Be proud of your old man!"

Such pride.....

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

All CB is good for is baiting. Like a good engine, it doesn't take much to get him started, and like good finance, a small investment guarantees a large return :D


By now i think that most people can see that he has nothing useful or even factual to add about anything regarding CX. He himself has admitted to having a massive chip on his shoulder. He has read John Warham's 49'ers and now considers himself a martyr. Let him rant, it only erodes what little credibility he has left.


Thanks for the information regarding the icad scheme, ETOPS240. It is encouraging to read some positive facts from somebody in the know.

Ha! ETOPS you plonker! All the while I thought you had changed tact to ignore me! What a sucker!!

And yet again, you're an IDIOT. I did my reading on you and just like whorewhore here I see you also have a failure to COMPREHEND. Find BUT ONE statement from me where I mention you as an iCadet. If you had the intelligence to read you'd see I wrote those like you who ENDORSE it!

For the slower amongst us, from my post ETOPS is referring to:
And you honestly think that there are only a few here who disagree with what you and the others have done to the job at CX, and / or you endorse?

Doing vs endorsing..... Tricky one that, eh? If anything that makes you worse. There you are high and mighty on your pay packet encouraging others to do the same job for around 60% less.

Who's the cock? Read, comprehend, THINK you idiot! Load brain before shooting off mouth. Try it.

Most importantly, get a spine.

And whorewhore, welcome back! I see you like the new name! So much so you've changed your status location from "selling out" to "whorewhore". Great. Are you too ashamed now to strut with that sell-out status? After all it was and is your self proclaimed badge of pride since your first ever post.

Nothing FACTUAL? Odd that neither you, your new found bed-pals ETOPS or Q400 have as yet been able to discredit one thing I have mentioned as anything but FACT. You each choose to play the person rather than the ball. One guy with the intelligence to correct me where I've been wrong is VoiceOfReason. At least this guy offers an intelligence rebuttal via facts, and it was appreciated.

What cracks me up is all the time you spend here as opposed to studying like a man possessed for this iCadet interview. The more you can get suckered into debate here (lose term, more of a comic delivery from you) then the less study you do. Then again, I'm sure I am assuming too much already - the study and research bit, not the selling out.

If you had the intelligence to read you'd see I a wrote those like you who ENDORSE it!

Sorry, what?

If you had the intelligence to write coherently, that would aid me no end in reading your drivel.

Do I feel the new scheme will put my current conditions under threat eventually? Hell yes.

Is it a surprise? No. Absolutely not. When I joined, I did so with a plan to make the most of it. CX has a basic payscale that rivals British Airways and the other leading employers (that don't require a specific passport) with a very kind housing benefit on top.

A simple supply & demand peep shows that there was/is absolutely no way whatsoever that those conditions would last.

I've done everything in my power to make the best of it. Piled up equity for free, saved, lived sensibly etc. in order to prepare for the inevitable. Why? To prepare myself for the inevitable incoming reality of supply and demand.

Will it be a hard pill to swallow, if my T's and C's are eroded? Somewhat yes. But, despite your typical bitching pilot workforce, and their narrow view, there is a great big world of economics out there.

So, do I endorse it the cadet programme? Selfishly, no. Realistically, yes, I have little option.

Will it be tough financially as an SO? Yes, if you want to live in the thick of it. That is a privilege, not a right of passage. So, you pay for it. For everything else, you learn where to shop, and what to spend your money on. Rent aside, I live more cheaply and save more money than I have in any big city I've lived in (NYC, London, Dubai). I don't need 2 cars and 2 insurance policies for a start. There are countless other examples in my financial life where a saving has offset an increase for a product or service. Here, you can get by on as much or as little as you like. That is the absolute honest truth.

So, back to accepting why there are 30,000+applications for the programme:

It is a stable career, on wonderful aircraft, with wonderful people, and dollar for dollar, it pays like a legacy carrier. Not a legacy carrier plus big housing allowance. Just a legacy carrier. You're based in an incredible city (my opininon).

It is difficult to beat as a young wannabe. Let's take the US as an example. 2 years instructing, 15k PA. 5 years regional FO, 20-35k, 3+years regional commander, 50-75k. Back to the bottom of the seniority list; year one at a US legacy, 40k. Then the package starts coming close to what a year one cadet SO makes, though only in basic pay. Retirement contributions and medical still don't come close.

That is a very real timeline. Some have taken less time, some more. Some never made it to the big carriers. This does not factor in the huge likelihood of redundancy along the way. Anybody want to place bets on the aftermath of the debt ceiling crisis (be it delaying the inevitable or allowing the walls to crumble now)?

By this stage, the guy who joined CX on local terms is 12 years in. A senior FO, with a net take-home of around 3 times his US counterpart.

Sure, this gap will start to decrease, but it doesn't take a politician to spin the figures in favour of the CX career.

Financially, a career at CX for a cadet is still among the worlds best. Fact.

That is why I and my colleagues have to get to grips with it. That's why the applicants are there.

Incidentally, due to the ferocious competition, the standard of cadet product is still very high. Only the likes of idiots like CB will try to hold CX responsible for illiterate clowns who post on an open internet forum. They sadly exist on forums for wannabe doctors, lawyers and investment bankers.

Caveat: as I have mentioned - the far bigger issue is whether you are made for Hong Kong. Not whether you can balance your bottom line.

At last! ETOPS brings to the discussion some opinions that are presentable and with some form of logical delivery! All be it a severely DEFEATIST attitude.

Here dog, come and get kicked.... here dog, come and get kicked.... here dog, come and get kicked.... Even a damn dog knows when enough is enough and bites back.

No. There is no shortage of pilots. Just a shortage of reputable airlines paying for the experience. Pay bananas, get monkeys. Airlines like QR, EK, EY and the many Asian carriers are snapping up pilots with >4000 hrs and jet time as much as they can. CX are doing the opposite. That hole will leave CX in trouble soon: as per the AOA update about 2 weeks ago. Read it.

Blame CX for the rubbish that is attracted to the package, as evident on these forums? Hell yeah. Who else to blame? Simply go back to these forums pre iCadet and not the utterly different tone of questions and answers, least of literacy capabilities.

What cracks me up is all the time you spend here as opposed to studying like a man possessed for this iCadet interview. The more you can get suckered into debate here (lose term, more of a comic delivery from you) then the less study you do. Then again, I'm sure I am assuming too much already - the study and research bit, not the selling out.

Interesting point of view.

I thought you had an airline job that you enjoy? Yet you still find the time to come here (even during your breaks it would seem) to play silly buggers with me. Who is leading whom CB? For every small deposit i make, i get a sizable return in drivel. Just browsing through other threads, i can see you even find the time to dig up my quotes :)

In all honesty though, i do think people would be more receptive to what you have to say if you were less quick to go throwing insults. If anything brings down the tone of this forum, it is the name calling.

CB.

The AOA are not exactly objective though, are they. They are, by design, biased and one-sided. As well they should be. I have to say that their view on this more extreme than mine.

QF EK et al are snapping up folks left right and centre, because they are expanding at a comical, unsustainable rate. No other reason. Cx are not. They are conservative by comparison.

If they ever run short, and they've exhausted the qualified SO pool, and it looks like in the mid-term, they might, they will have a short spree of hiring FOs. Will they be on DEFO terms? Who knows. Not unless they supply says they have to be.

Either way, DE status and benefits are, in the long term, on their way out of CX. That's not defeatist, you prat, that's realistic. Just like A-scale, B will die. Just like the millionaire pilots.

Markets always swing to sustainability. It's not magic doing it, and it's not management, it's market elasticity.

You tell my why John Slosar would continue to pay over the odds for a huge percentage of his overheads? What the hell would anyone 'wasting money' tell shareholders?

A-scale existed, because that was the going rate to get someone suitably trained to move to HK. That was no longer needed. B scale was needed, because that was the going rate to get someone suitably trained to move to Hong Kong. That is no longer needed. It may be in the interim, but it isn't now.

Now, icadet package is what is needed. I'm sure now you'll cast a million aspersions on their training, something you know nothing about. Just rest assured that these guys come out of Adelaide knowing a shite-sight more about their craft than your typical US major pilot. They may not have the experience, they'll get that here. They'll have some of the worlds best trainers training them, and some of the most robust SOPs and practices anywhere to be found.

That, in my view, is worth more in a jumbo, than your experience as an air taxi pilot in Western Australia.

Well done ETOPS. You're learning to argue with some substance. Almost until you threw in the "you prat" bit....

Now, a few things:
A-scale existed, because that was the going rate to get someone suitably trained to move to HK. That was no longer needed. B scale was needed, because that was the going rate to get someone suitably trained to move to Hong Kong. That is no longer needed.
Key words "no longer needed". You are 100% right. But this comes as a trade off. As per your own AOA stats, the number of applicants for the shorter courses (ie with experience) has greatly reduced as opposed to the full course which is greatly over subscribed (zero to very little experience). The trade off is the experience and quality of the applicant. Reduce the T&C's and keep the minimums the same as they previously were and we'll see how many apply.

Now, icadet package is what is needed.
Justify this please. CX have just made and are on course to make record profits yet see the need to LOWER remuneration? So is this "needed" or is just a further money grab?

I'm sure now you'll cast a million aspersions on their training, something you know nothing about.
Really? I know "nothing"? How about the FACT that CX have reduced the transition sim training by 1/3?

Speak to many CX pilots and ask if CX is renown as a "Training Airline" or merely a "Checking Airline". That's a matter of opinion but is very widely thought of.

Just rest assured that these guys come out of Adelaide knowing a shite-sight more about their craft than your typical US major pilot.
Very bold statement. Care to elaborate? Support it with FACTS? Or is it wishful thinking? I have had the pleasure of flying with such airmen who would leave most speculators (as you are doing now) embarrassed in their knowledge, experience and skill.

My experience taught me command decision making skills outside of a circuit or x-country solo navex, how to stand on my own two feet to go out and get a job, keep it and earn the next rung on the ladder, to learn from my mistakes (the many that nearly killed me and the ones that worked out), to know when and how to stand up to my boss, to know when to say "no" and how to find a way if one existed, to learn self discipline and study techniques to further my aspirations, to know the rules and regs inside and out to ensure I got the job done as needed, and finally to EARN the right to apply for the privilege that used to be CX. All the multi choice exams on an aircraft systems test cannot teach that. Book smarts, nothing more.

As I've said before: Knowledge and passion without application and experience is useless.

If you wish an educated debate in which we can agree to disagree without the attacks (form both sides) then PM me. Others have, and it's been an interesting discussion and one that quite often we've had different views.

Whorewhore....I do have an airline job that I thoroughly enjoy. Did I ever state anything other? I have earned the job I do and can use the time in between flights as I please. The study I keep doing is by professional need and choice as and when I choose. Receptive to what I say? Kid, I could sugar coat the facts as best as possible but the fact remains that by self admission you don't give a damn about your colleagues or the industry, you are looking out for yourself and to hell with the consequences. And that will get under the skin of most professional airline pilots. Still not one of you attacking me have had the balls to refute anything but to come back with personal attacks. Personal with you whorewhore? Hell yeah. You crap on all that most airline pilots stand for and defend. No apologies.

What do balls have to do with anything? You hide behind an alias and sling insults on an internet forum board, yet you talk about balls?

Balls would be slinging those same insults in person, and i'd bet my life you wouldn't have the balls to do it then.

Wrong. I would and down to my last breath. And, damn! To be given the chance..... Actually if and when I do meet the likes of you at a random crew bar around the globe I'd be happy to simply walk away. I would not waste my time.

And the name on your birth certificate is "hihi" ("whorewhore")? Or are you a hypocrite for stating "You hide behind an alias...." ??

No, you don't have the balls to stand up and argue with facts, only your self proclaimed sell-out nature is the entire backbone for your opinions. You said it, I'm merely repeating it.

Go on the tough guy. Publicise your real name in your next post and see how that works for you. Put up or shut up. Sell-out.

Comprehension, CB, comprehension. You speak of it, yet it seems lost on you. I'm not the one wanking on about having balls, and i'm not the one slinging names. I shouldn't have to explain this very simple concept to you.

Heard of it before and NO...

Working for AC would require most Canadians to move to Toronto and make a beautiful 38,000CAD/year to start. iCadet? Looks better than that no?

Actually MTC......NO!

I passed on the i(diot)Cadet program twice. I can be poor in Canada with my friends and family much easier than going half way around the globe to CHINA to be poor and alone. Anyone with any (real) experience is not taking this sub-standard contract. The real jobs are just around the corner and anyone with any time in the industry would tell you that. Cathay is taking advantage of the recession to "hand-cuff" wanna-be pilots to them until hopefully the next recession when you won't be able to move. Hence the 6-year taxable bond.

I don't want a pissing contest, but for me the deal is no good. I wish you the best in the future, and please read all the cadet postings, so you have no regrets about your choice.

But what could possibly be the point of a Canadian moving to Hong Kong, unless you have strong family ties or a perverse addiction to industrial smog and confined claustrphobic spaces?

Getting 'experience' so that you can later join AC in Toronto on 39k a year? Why postpone it? For the money? With the new hkpa you will not get ahead, your purchasing power will be substantially less, and your quality of live miserable in comparisons. For a basing? Forget it, the system is frozen and the backlog long. For the love of flying? It's NOT flying, its sandwich eating, movie watching, jet lagging miserable monotony in a system where your only identity is a 6 digit number in a box. MS flight simulator is a more rewarding flying experience then this.

Unless you want to throw away the best years of your life with nothing to show for it but an empty pocket and a logbook of sim-time, stay at home and appreciate the friends, family, charter of rights an quality of live which you're privileged enough to be born with. There is nothing here anymore, everything that once made it worth the sacrifice has been taken away.

Don't be the dumbass showing up at closing time.

Can someone confirm or correct my understanding that all Airlines, other than CX, that used to use Adelaide have stopped using them. I assume its because standards have dropped:confused:

Can someone confirm or correct my understanding that all Airlines, other than CX, that used to use Adelaide have stopped using them. I assume its because standards have droppedhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gifMost airlines that used to send their cadets to Bae/FTA have stopped for various reasons... I wouldn't say it was to do with standards but the quality of instruction/instructors nowadays is not as good as it used to be. Many senior and experienced instructors that helped built up the great reputation over the years (1990's) are long gone :{

From what I have heard... the only airline cadets that are there now are CX & DA.

but the quality of instruction/instructors nowadays is not as good as it used to be.

They probably started a CX style C scale. Peanuts, Monkeys.

General Custard??

WHAT?

Do you mean this person George Armstrong Custer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer)

Or are you referring to a character from your Tellytubbies program?

Here we go.....

I'll blame the autocorrect setting on my computer. Custer to Custard....! But the link made for some interesting reading. Love the quote:

"Hurrah boys, we've got them! We'll finish them up and then go home to our station."
—Famous words reportedly said by General Custer shortly before being killed

Same theme with the CPP?

(PS: I think Tinky Winky has recieved enough bad press!! Tinky Winky - the Gay Teletubby?? (http://www.rightgrrl.com/carolyn/teletubbies.html))

From the benefit package a first year FO, not JFO or SFO, would make 1.1M a year including allowance. Don't shoot the messenger, just quoting the package. How do you see the forgivable loan fitting into all this? Must be somewhat good having an extra 880,000HKD for stuff?

On another point what is the difference between junior, regular, and senior FO?

That is a ridiculous difference in housing allowance, wow.

I can see the difference, that's for sure. The thing is that I would be comparing the C scale pay not to B scale, but to Canadian airlines' scales. Which is still worse imo.

I heard form a pilot in the hiring pool upgrade times at Westjet reaching 13 years. That's a while at FO pay too.

The thing is that I would be comparing the C scale pay not to B scale, but to Canadian airlines' scales.

That is the trap that everyone falls for. You need to factor in the cost of living and housing in HKG. You just can't compare salaries. It's the lifestyle that you can achieve on those salaries that is important. Also, don't forget, the measly HKPA is not indexed, so inflation will seriously erode it.
Record breaking pollution levels in HKG should also be considered.

That is true. It is not just the salaries.

Cathay will not make you rich anymore (if it ever did), but even in Hong Kong, "comfortable" seems to be achievable with this scale. You will not be an SO forever and you will continue to advance and make more money. Ten years until Captain is not a long time, the same exists over here.

On that note some more troubling facts would be making less, way less, than the FOs around you and then the Captains around you once you got there. Also, if enough guys hold out and the package does increase, which seems unlikely considering the trends of the industry, would an icad be subject to the new terms or boned for life?

I know it's a typo but perhaps more of a Freudian slip??!!

So yes, you will get boned for life under this iCadet package.

Other questions have been answered countless times before.

mtc
Cathay will not make you rich anymore (if it ever did), but even in Hong Kong, "comfortable" seems to be achievable with this scale.
Comfortable for whom? A single guy or a guy with a family? As has been said before you must look at the T&C’s on a long term basis. Yes you can get by as a single guy but it is a non starter for a married guy especially with kids. The vast majority of pilots won’t be single forever.
You will not be an SO forever and you will continue to advance and make more money. Ten years until Captain is not a long time, the same exists over here.
Someone joining today as an iCad SO would be an SO minimum of 4 years but most likely 6-8 years. You would then upgrade to a JFO for 1 year followed by a FO for 8-10 years. So best case scenario is 13 years to command but even with the current aircraft on order could be as long as 19-20 years.
Also, if enough guys hold out and the package does increase, which seems unlikely considering the trends of the industry, would an icad be subject to the new terms or boned for life?
The package has already been improved twice since 2009 due to a lack of interest. Since the expansion plans for airlines around the world is rapidly gaining pace, competition for experienced pilot’s services will drive up T&C’s.
If you joined today it is prety certain that will be your T&C's for your career here.

404 is right on the money. The local guys for whom the cadet program was originally designed for (and still is according to RH - refer last update from him) received the HKPLA due the requirement enforced by the RDO, not due CX's goodwill!! In fact CX's use of the RDO was to REDUCE the package for the pilot body!!!!!

Due the natural forces of supply and demand if less people accept it CX need to find a way to create the demand: remuneration. But, owing to their already acknowledged and publicised disgraceful track record of industrial relations and cards being played already would you possibly think CX would increase the package for those who already signed and accepted the iCadet package to a better remuneration package implemented to attract better qualified and experienced pilots, or just more pilots full stop?

Hell, if you're stupid enough to sign and endorse it then im my opinion you deserve if for the rest of your career. And, have zero scope to moan if the guy who started after you is getting a far better remuneration package.

I find nothing positive with the 880000 or however much it is. If you have no experience, it's about 1/8th of that amount. You'll spend it all in the first year trying to stay ahead and catching up. Then you've got nothing but a useless debt you're paying off with time wasted NOT EVER FLYING.

Someone joining today as an iCad SO would be an SO minimum of 4 years but most likely 6-8 years. You would then upgrade to a JFO for 1 year followed by a FO for 8-10 years. So best case scenario is 13 years to command but even with the current aircraft on order could be as long as 19-20 years.

I hope this is wrong.

2001 = 1500 pilots, 2011 = approx 2500 pilots. 2021 = 4000 pilots?

My God, what a hard read.

Doing the required research that any prospective employee should do is quite torturous thanks to a few tossers that make these threads almost unreadable.

Thank you to those that have made meaningful contributions.

To those that have resorted to name calling, to using spelling to put others down etc, thanks for wasting my time. I hope, but doubt, that when you read over your contributions to this thread, that you feel embarassed.

Hey Dan.

This is my first thread or response on Pprune.

I've got a pretty good command slot at a regional based in Sydney. No points for guessing which one!!!

I've got a first round interview with CX in about a month. I'm going to the interview and am gonna try and get offered a job.

Whether I take it or not is another thing.

The problem is that all I hear is negativity about the SO program. I don't wanna get shafted by anyone, I got my fill of that in GA!!!!

Unfortunately CX is pretty much the only airline that I have really wanted to work for. I have a family member who Is a training captain at CX and he says that everyone should say no to the offer so that it forces CX's hand into increasing the T&C's.

That's all well and good when you are in the company and sitting pretty!

In your opinion, what are actual chances of things getting better in the next 12-24 months!?!?

Have a real good look at what they are offering (or what they aren't)
I would suspect that with a command slot in a regional in Aust it would take you at least 5-6 years in Cathay before you even get close to equalling your current wage with the regional. Cathay has had one payrise in the last ten years. Don't underestimate the little CPI increases that your current EBA gets.

Don't under estimate the costs of Hong Kong. Simple things like a litre of milk costing 30HKD or approx $4 AUD when spread across everything you buy start to really blow the budget after a while.

Good luck with the Deliberations however remember that Cathay is a company that is recruiting on it's reputations of the 80's whilst not publicising how it's driving the conditions down in this century.

@<hidden> Beached - Just want to correct something you wrote. The CEP's in CX did not get the HKPA due to the RDO coming into effect. The RDO basically states "same job - same pay" which means that all CEP's should essentially be paid the current DEP package, or alternatively the DEP's paid the CEP package! The grandfathering took care of that debacle but then CX found itself in a position where they couldn't hire anyone on DEP terms and the old CEP contract was not attracting anyone! So they needed to improve the terms. Add education - no effect. Add HKPA - no effect. They are scratching for the lowest, lowest bar possible. I'm haven't had the stomach to sit and work out what it would cost the company to just capitulate and say, "CEP terms for first 5 years, then DEP for everyone" (or something similar) but I would hazard a guess that whilst costing more on the surface, in the long run they would save. One day I'll work it out. Bottom line, any changes to the CEP package from the "old" one are simply because they cannot attract anyone with the old terms. Anyone accepting the current terms in my book is seriously compromising their professional/financial future! CX calls itself a "Career airline" - in the past I believe that was true. Now I believe that it's only true because once you are in, by the time you've accrued enough hours to leave or paid back all your debt, you'll have wasted 10 years and no one else will have you or you won't be able to take going to the bottom of another carriers seniority list.

@<hidden> - 12-24 months? Not sure. Depends how many turkeys take the current package. The wheels turn veeeery slowly with CX and they are interested not in employee welfare, but in bottom line economics. The old adage of "pay peanuts, get monkeys" is ringing loudly at the moment. Of course, some people see it as having no choice if they want to fly. But it's a path fraught with serious challenges. Many of which will not become apparent until the PNR has passed and they have you by the short and curlies.

LazyEights

The CEP's in CX did not get the HKPA due to the RDO coming into effect.
That is what CX would like you to believe. Those pilots coming into CX via the Transitional Course and I would argue the Advanced Course would be covered under Section 13 “Exception for employment of person with special skills, knowledge or experience” of the RDO.
The RDO basically states "same job - same pay" which means that all CEP's should essentially be paid the current DEP package, or alternatively the DEP's paid the CEP package!
Actually no it doesn't. What it actually says is:
An Ordinance to render discrimination, harassment and vilification, on the ground of race, unlawful; to prohibit serious vilification of persons on that ground; to extend the jurisdiction of the Equal Opportunities Commission to include such unlawful acts; to confer on the Commission the function of eliminating such discrimination, harassment and vilification and promoting equality and harmony between people of different races; to amend certain definitions, and the provisions on discrimination against contract workers, in existing anti-discrimination legislation as well as the provision on unlawful sexual harassment by creating a hostile or intimidating environment in the Sex Discrimination Ordinance for alignment with corresponding provisions in this Ordinance; to make other consequential and related amendments to enactments; and for related purposes.
Prior to the Icadet scheme, CEP were employed based on the fact they had a HK Permanent ID card. This resulted in Cadets of different races, though I will concede that most were of a HK Chinese background. Many though were the children of predominantly European expats. As cadets were employed based on their right to live in Hong Kong rather than race, it is questionable whether the RDO even applies.

Hong Kong "RACE DISCRIMINATION ORDINANCE" (http://www.legislation.gov.hk/blis_pdf.nsf/6799165D2FEE3FA94825755E0033E532/7B5C41B095863F7C482575EF0020F30A/$FILE/CAP_602_e_b5.pdf)

Don't under estimate the costs of Hong Kong. Simple things like a litre of milk costing 30HKD or approx $4 AUD when spread across everything you buy start to really blow the budget after a while.

Don't believe everything you read here either. Actual price HK$16.90

Wellcome Delivers (http://shop.wellcome.com.hk/jsp/sys/Sf_render.jsp?hf_s_id=WD11&hf_srv_id=Pv_fpdt_dtl&hf_rand=2056981736&hs_opener_srv_id=Pv_fpdt_q_srch&hs_show_tbl_ind=N&hs_pdt_id=117053)

$16. As long as you are prepared to buy Uht or the local Kowloon dairy ie chinese milk
After while you may or may not be able to stand the cheaper product

Soooo that place delivers groceries? And beers? And 6 coronas is 55HKD? Ha! That'll offset the cost of everything else. WOOOOOO!!!!!

Yep I love the price of beer in hkg. Cheap - $5 Hkd for a carlsberg
Electronics (as long as the locals use it)- very cheap
Its just there is also plenty of things that are comparatively expensive too.
And I agree don't believe everything you read on this website including the company propaganda. Read everything with a careful eye to garbage detail.

Regarding the time for upgrades:

1- SOs will be SOs for a minimum of four years. Don't count on less, but it may be longer.
2- If you were to join today, you would have approximately 1700 seniority numbers ahead of you, waiting for a command. Even if the training department was to run at full speed, there wouldn't be any more than 100 command upgrades per year. Realistically, count on about 50-75 command upgrades per year. Do the math, someone joining the company today would see his command no sooner than about 17 yrs after joining, but more likely 22-25 years later. Some might retire before reaching an upgrade.

During that time, you will enjoy lesser conditions than any other expats in HK and have no chance of getting a base for a long time, as they are all full and whatever opening arise is given in seniority.

Sorry if I sound pessimistic, but that is simply how it is. Please do join if that is an exciting career prospect for you.

Judging by the number of young visitors in rental suits in CX today, the message is not getting through.