Tiger Moth joy flights - chocks for starting?

[A37575]

The latest issue of the Melbourne based magazine "Pacific Flyer" has an article by well known aviation author Macarthur Job. It is called "Whirling Scimitars -and Just as Deadly" It is about the dangers posed by propellers.

Some years ago, a newly graduated grade 3 instructor at a well known aero club at Moorabbin was tasked to give a Trial Instructional Flight in a Cessna 152. The battery was flat, so the instructor keen not to lose a potential student, decided to hand start the 152. The engine of the 152 is not designed to be started by hand but pilots still do it and without formal training. On the job training so to speak. And why did the aero club allow this sort of practice when they would have known the battery was dodgy? Careless maintenance.

There were no chocks placed in front of the wheels (although there was no shortage of chocks on the tarmac). The instructor had been taught from his ab-initio days never to trust the park brake and he didn't this time, either. So he didn't even try to place the park brake to on. If it was inoperative it wasn't in the maintenance release.

Instead he told the bewildered TIF student to place his toes high on the rudder pedals and hold them down hard. He turned the magneto switch on and proceeded to swing the prop. It started alright except pity about the throttle being set to high idle. The 152 started to move quickly forward under the influence of 1500 RPM on a smooth tarmac and the frightened student took his feet off the pedals in alarm. The instructor was unable to prevent the aircraft from running into a closed hangar door. Aircraft and door sustained damage. But at least it was a memorable occasion for the TIF student.

Fast forward to an airfield in Victoria where two Tiger Moths were conducting joy flights last weekend. . A passenger paid up and was kitted out with a headset and then trussed up in the front seat. The pilot in command then prepared to start the Tiger Moth by hand as Tiger Moths are not equipped with electric starter motors. Tiger Moths don't have wheel brakes either. Some have a tail skid which acts as a rudimentary brake but useless on a hard surface. This Tiger Moth had a tailwheel which isn't much good as a brake of course on any surface.

The pilot then proceeded to swing the propeller several times clockwise and anti-clockwise to draw fuel into the four cylinders. It's called "sucking in and blowing out" in Tiger Moth terminology. Then the pilot reached over the bottom wing and turned on the magneto switches situated on the outside of the fuselage next to the open cockpits. Back to the propeller again which he carefully placed vertical and gave it the big heave-ho.

Now, according to the Tiger Moth handling notes, when starting the engine the pilot is supposed to keep the control column fully back to prevent the Tiger Moth from nosing over if inadvertant high RPM occurs. I wonder if the joy flight passenger in the front seat had been briefed to do this? But today, the pilot outside the aeroplane had set the throttle perfectly and the little engine purred to life at 700 RPM. Not enough to make the Tiger Moth move slowly forward on the grass if chocks were not in place under the wheels. Remember - no brakes.

Chocks? What chocks? If they were in front of the Tiger Moth wheels they must have been hidden in the grass? Maybe.. The pilot then walked around the aircraft with its engine ticking over and donning a leather flying helmet, swung his legs into the tiny back cockpit. All the time during the prop swinging procedure the joy flight passenger was alone in the front cockpit. One hopes she enjoyed the subsequent flight and didn't need a Barf Bag.

It got me thinking about complacency. From where this Ppruner sat in his car there was no sign of any chocks in front of the wheels of the Tiger Moth. The pilot did a propeller hand start with a passenger tied in the front cockpit probably clueless on what to do if the engine had burst into life with more RPM than the pilot expected. It has happened before and people have been hurt. The machine had no brakes and no tail skid - thus no friction drag.

It could be argued on the grounds of flight safety that as part of his team the operator of the joy flights should have provided a trained person experienced in hand swinging a Tiger Moth propeller. If there was, on this occasion he must have been off duty. It would also seem good airmanship for the pilot to have been seated in his cockpit with the fuel cock on/off availability as well as mag switches to immediate hand, in event the aircraft moved forward under its own steam after the prop was being swung . Remember - no brakes.

In other words you need a two man team (pilot and prop swinger/chock remover, for maximum safety. Then the trained prop swinger could communicate his intentions to the pilot in the cockpit re engine starting. And better still the student would not be left vulnerable and all alone.

Of course someone has to pull the chocks away after the engine is started, and the prop swinger can do that job. In the old days chocks came with long ropes attached so that the chocks could be rmoved without the person being exposed to propeller danger. Don't see that happening nowadays. Mind you there aren't too many Tiger Moths around, either. Is it too much to ask of an operator to train his staff on prop swinging a Tiger Moth and what precautions are needed when approaching the wheels to pull out each chock? Duty of care is another term that comes to mind in the profession of joy flights.

And of course, operator complacency. There are potential dangers in a one pilot - one man band operation, and the Tiger Moth joy flight operator should be aware of this. Lawyers would have a field day if mischance happens.

[ryanboxer]

its interesting when the F22 raptor starts up with the chocks inserted, ground crew go to remove with great difficulty, only takes a couple of minutes and about 3 or 4 soldiers kicking the chocks well.

[Sunfish]

1. It's not "poor maintenance" that is responsible for a flat battery on a C152 at YMMB, it's stupid bloody pilots and instructors who fail to turn off the master switch.

2. Other than that, the comments about chocks are correct. Having said that, as a student in a C150 with a flat battery, I knew enough to keep my feet on the brakes and how to operate the ignition switch to keep the Two people (one supervising and one starting) safe.

[VH-XXX]

Quite a read there but entirely valid.

I've seen the Tigermoth with sole pilot at Moorabbin, however he uses chocks. Set throttle, place chocks, mags on, hand start, walk back, adjust throttle etc as required, warm up engine if required - remove chocks with rope, enter cockpit. (he doesn't remove the chocks when inside the aircraft)

Much safer, but still not perfect. One would assume that the passenger does not have access to the throttle so this would be quite a safe operation.

I've done a hundred or so starts on the Tiger as the right-hand-man, can highly recommend it for the purposes of a safe operation with a quick turnaround, but I'm sure there are other ways to do it safely as a sole pilot which would no doubt include a long rope.

[baron_beeza]

I will enjoy this thread. I have written recently on the C172 and Cherokee Yahoo forums.
It started off about mag switch operation with many of the members completely unaware that the engine normally only starts on half the plugs.

They were completely oblivious of the need to determine the type of ignition system and if applicable the number of impulse couplings fitted.

Normally the engine would have an impulse on the left mag,- so by far the majority of SE GA aircraft would be swung with the switch selected to 'Left' only.
The mag switch then being selected to 'Both' on start up.

The discussion also covered the other drills for swinging the prop and what can, and does, go wrong.

It was basically along the lines of, - If you haven't been trained correctly then don't ever attempt to swing the prop.... no matter what the emergency of the moment is.

It may only get a whole heap worse.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yeah it might be better with a person to swing and a qualified person in the rear cockpit but not alway practical. No idea how many times I have swung a Tiger prop solo but IMO its safe 'enough' provided you know the aircraft and what you're doing. If a Tiger Moth needs more than throttle CLOSED to start its set up wrong. The mag switches are on the outside so you can see them (and reach them quickly if necessary).

LnVJCsO8BtU

If there is no one handy who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING you are better off doing it alone.

[VH-XXX]

By golly Chuckles that is a nice looking machine! The prop looks like it was routed yesterday.

Your procedure looks identical to the way I go about it (as the assistant) however I always try and start with my left hand and keep the other on the vertical strut. Otherwise I have visions of losing balance and falling into the prop.


Have a mate who was preparing his Midget Mustang for flight after handstarting. After starting he leans over to adjust the throttle, but I found he was lifting his leg to balance himself to within literally an inch of the spinning prop. Sometimes we don't know what can go wrong until someone points it out.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

In 'another life' when I was instructing in the WA wheatbelt, I had a Tiger available and did several endo's in it.

That particular machine was 'original', in that there were NO brakes at all.
However, a clever engineer had welded a 'T' piece of file to the bottom of the skid, and on the wheatbelt hard sandy surfaces, it was 'ideal' in that it did act a brake as soon as that skid was down - it 'dug in' a bit and slowed the aircraft nicely - automatically you might say.

When starting on the sandy surface, I did not always chock it as long as a 'trusted' person was holding the throttle closed, preferably, but sometimes when you are 'solo' that was not always 'practible'...
However, it hardly ever moved - the 'patented' skid mod. saw to that.

However, I did always 'swing' the prop from the rear - and still do - so that the switches and the throttle are within immediate reach if required.
And I hang on to the strut - now that I am older and not so 'athletic'.
Just to ensure that one does NOT lean forward on the downswing.....

Fast forward...the Tiger I fly today operates on the Bitumen, & HAS a NON locking brake and a tail wheel. Bugger!!

Therefore the Chocks are essential / mandatory / gotta have them!
It just rolls so easily on the bitumen, that, as soon as the chocks are pulled....well, you'd better be pointing in the right direction...as per ya pre-start check.

And with a passenger 'who does not know anything' in the front seat, this aircraft is always started by an 'endorsed' pilot, with the 'pilot flying' already in the rear seat.

For what its worth....

Have fun.

p.s. I've always found the C150 etc a difficult aircraft to swing, because the magneto impulse point is so low that you are literally bending down / over, and slightly out of balance in that swinging motion....ooops.
At least the Tiger is 'up there'.....and one's natural inclination is backwards.

p.p.s. Front seat control column REMOVED for joy flights - so no risk there.

Cheers:ok:

[baron_beeza]

Yep the Tiger is docile and easy to swing compared to some. I was once the hangar boy for one of the premiere flying club's in the UK. We operated a large fleet of wood and canvas aircraft, all without starters fitted.
I got to swing all manners of machines but primarily the Moth, Stampes and Turbulents. About the same time I was glider towing in a Super Cub which we solo started as part of the routine.

Over the years I probably got a feel for the various ways of starting the machines, certainly enough to know when someone has got it completely wrong.
I should add that I have held professional Pilot and Engineer licences for almost 30 years and the job in the UK was gaining experience for my wood and fabric ratings. (A long time ago).

I think we all have heard about various runaway aircraft, the two in Oz that spring to mind would be the one charging through the GA compound in Darwin and the well publicised chainsaw attack down south somewhere.

Basically from my experiences in the past couple of decades is that guys generally get the procedure all wrong. Obviously it has become something of a lost art and I am not aware of it included in any CPL training syllabus.

By far the most dangerous guys about are the young instructors, completely clueless and out to impress....

I guess sooner or later we will be writing our versions of the full procedure here soon, it starts with positioning of the aircraft, briefing, brakes, throttle footwear etc and just goes on..

The younger guys here really need to be aware of mag switch operation , including the need to start on the impulse mag only.
Likewise an understanding of starter Bendix operation... it is difficult swinging an engine if the Bendix is still engaged.

If you have never swung your type, and have not been taught by a competent instructor (preferably a LAME), then you really are taking a massive risk.
As an aircraft owner I would be mightily upset if some novice, (hick, jerk, upstart, boofhead), or his mates (read even less idea) subjected my machines to such a risky exercise.

Please, it is far safer to make a phone call... get the owner and engineers involved.
I am talking more about instances of flat batteries and the likes..... a replacement battery can be fitted quickly, your battery could be recharged, - whatever....... bent and broken aircraft are not so easily fixed.

Broken or missing arms don't fix themselves so quickly either

[rocket66]

Morning all

I have a reasonable amount of experience in flying tigers but probably more in starting them. I was taught by experienced hands and they both have said the same thing. When a tiger is started the throttle should be on the idle stop. As chimbu says if it needs anymore throttle than that the aircraft has been set up wrong and should be adjusted. Secondly if a tiger is started with a fistful of throttle and chocks are in front, on many occasions it may nose over. I have seen this occurr before and the fella involved was lucky not to lose his legs from flying pieces of timber from the prop hitting the earth.

As was mentioned earlier sucking and blowing should only be performed after ensuring the switches are off and then always still treat the prop with caution. Then when starting the right hand should be on the strut for balance and the othe hand on the prop. From my experience most will fire when the prop is slightly above the 9 o'clock position so make sure your paws are ou of the way by then. Then walk back to the wing and run your hand along the leading edge walking away.

Rocket

[Captain Dart]

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 231

Manipulation of propeller
(1) In spite of regulations 225 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s225.html) and 230 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s230.html) and subregulation (2), the pilot in command of an aircraft which requires an operating crew of only one pilot may manipulate the propeller of the aircraft for the purposes of starting the aircraft if:
(a) assistance is not readily available for that purpose;
(b) adequate provision is made to prevent the aircraft moving forward; and
(c) no person is on board the aircraft. (My bolding)

Is it just me or are these joy flight operators operating illegally if the pilot hand starts the aircraft with a passenger on board? Also, the throttle being knocked by the pax, or worse, the pilot as he was boarding the Tiger, would not lead to a pretty sight.

[717tech]

The Tiger Moth I used to fly has brakes!

[Feather #3]

It's illegal to do so with a sole pax on board!

However, a licensed pilot is another matter.

G'day ;)

[Critical Reynolds No]

I recall reading an article of an Auster that had some sort of engine failure at Bankstown. He got out to restart and after it did start, the Auster departed without him. Had to be eventually shot down out over the ocean by RAN Sea Fury's. A RAAF sabre or meteor tried but had a gun failure.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I remember that.

BIG embarassment for the RAAF - even BIGGER 'WIN' for the NAVY!!

From what I can recall, the aircraft did 'lazy circling patterns' over the city / suburbs until eventually reaching, and then crossing the coast, from whence it was safe to 'despatch'.

There was 'talk' at the time that the RAAF jets were too fast to 'get a bead' on the slow flying Auster....and because the armory was locked, there was a big time delay in getting the ammo...and prolly several other rumours at the time as well...

Happy days....:ok:

[aroa]

Or the rich reward for the homebuilder in Washington State USA.

Trailered his new pride and joy to the airport. Assembled and readied for test flight, primed and set for start.

Flicked the prop, the revs wound up, it moved forward rapidly (NO chocks!) he had to fling himself aside... and from there he could only watch while his long labour of love took off, climbed gracefully into the morning air, heading for the Cascade Mountains.

By the time they managed to round up another aircraft and set off in cold pursuit..it was long gone, never to be seen again.

I wonder what his wife had to say when he got home..!:(

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thread drift...I know....but ..... I found the story....'tis interesting...except if your were RAAF at the time...the Navy boys were 'smiling' for weeks...

Mid 1950s: A Fleet Air Arm runabout and trainer, the Auster Autocar J-5G at Nowra - and the runaway aircraft over Sydney story revisited. Photo Kimberley Dunstan RAN 1958-1967. | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/41311545@N05/4928918230/)

Cheers:ok:

[Critical Reynolds No]

Newspaper clipping here. Love the kill marking.
ADF-Serials Image Gallery :: Sea Fury VW645 (109) :: Auster52shootdown5 (http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Sea-Fury-VW645/Auster52shootdown5)

There was a pdf document on the Navy site but it has dissapeared.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The lead Meteor pilot on the Auster shoot down attempt was, then Sqd Ldr, later Wing Commander, Max Holdsworth.

In the early 80s he was a silver haired old Examiner Of Airmen with DCA/CAA - his nickname amongst us student pilots and instructors was 'Mad Max'. He could be a bit of an old cnt in fact. A friend of the family who served with him flying P40s in Milne Bay during the Pacific War reckons he was a 'grumpy old cnt' even when he was in his 20s.

He gave me (and MANY others) more than my fair share of grief on my way through CPL and Instructor Ratings...finally after almost literally destroying me on my Instructors Rating test he passed me with the words "I think you have a natural talent for this young man, congratulations":ugh:

Some little time later he sidled up bedside me in the Bankstown Briefing Office and I couldn't restrain myself "Hi Max.....I heard your weapon jammed?" We ALL knew the story.

He scowled at me - then a half smile - "Get fcked" picked up what he came for a shuffled off.:}

[S-N-A-F-U]

The machine had no brakes and no tail skid - thus no friction drag.

How do you know it had no brakes? if the tiger had been retrofitted with a tail wheel than it must have also been fitted with brakes of some sort or you would never be able to stop as the original tail skid acts as a brake, :ok:

[no one]

The operator I worked for 99% of the time had some one else on to start me, or me to start some one else in the same manner as chumbo does.
However being a relatively small operator occasionally you had to start your-self and the boss had developed a procedure (over a decade or so flying Tigers) which worked quite well.

Chocks in front of both main wheels and rope that is attached to both chocks running back under the fuselarge and out behind left wing.
Tell passenger (who is already straped in) 3 times to keep hands away and not to touch throttle.
Prime and start as normal.
Turn other Magneto on and adjust throttle (via front seat throttle) if too high.
Hold firmly on to the centre struts and put one foot on wheel, next foot on wing-walk and climb over wing (safer than it sounds as with firm grip was very sturdy and easy to do).
Stand on ground right up against fuselarge and wing, with right hand on rear throttle grab pre-laid rope with left hand and give firm tug (some pilots are better practiced at this than others) and this will remove the chocks.
Stand on wing-walk and then climb in as normal (at this point we had our hand off the throttle for no more than 2-3 seconds).

Still not perfect but we did practice doing this a few times before we had to for real and in my opion as safe as any thing when done properly.

no one.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Chuck,

Just got my computer fixed this arvo - couldn't see your video before - but its all good now.

NICE Hoffman Prop. And LOOKS VERY NICE aeroplane.:D:D

Congrats on such a NICE machine.!!

Cheers:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Auster Autocar J5G shot down?I did my initial tailwheel endorsement in a J5G. Good bloody riddance, I say!

Congrats on such a NICE machine.!!

Psssst! It is indeed that - but Chuckles had nothing to do with it! :E

Dr :8

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

O.K. Tks Dr -- Its STILL a very nice looking machine....

Cheers:ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

No not mine - but I am very lucky the owner is a mate and lets me fly it - a LOT:ok:

And just in case you haven't seen this vid either - any excuse for some Tiger Moth porn:ok:

J_12Vlo6guc

Pretending to be a Pitts Special:}

QL76gckXVi8&feature=related

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Speaking of 'ground handling' the Tiger sans brakes.....

In a strong wind when taxying downwind, down the runway at a country AD for T/O, and trying to gun the throttle to turn the 'old girl' around into the wind for the T/O, the best solution was to ...

Close the throttle so that the donk just 'ticks' over,
Drop the side 'gate',
Step out,
Pick it up by the tail strut and turn it around into wind,
Gently place tail back on ground,
Get back in and go...

Otherwise the wind would get under the up-wind wing and lift it - just as the turning motion, if any in a strong wind, would also cause the up-wind wheel to lift, thereby causing the 'old girl' to tip over onto the opposite wheel and the assoc. wingtip - thus wearing / causing abrasion to the fabric to the lower mainplane underside fabric.

Our 'clever' little LAME soon fixed that - with a nice little curved bamboo strip secured firmly under each lower wing-tip.
Worked a treat, but we still preferred to turn it around 'manually' when the morning Wheatbelt 'Easterlies'' were a'blowin'...

Good ole' days...:ok::ok:

[Jerrym]

A37575 - just a quick point. I used to work for that operator.

Yes, training was provided.

Yes we had access to the throttle at all times via the front seat when starting.

Yes passengers were briefed on what not to touch.

Yes we didn't use chocks because on the grass the tiger needed about 1500 RPM to start moving.

And Yes we had a written exemption from CASA to start the aircraft in that fashion.

I don't fly for them any more, but from my 15 years in the industry, the operation was no more unsafe than anywhere else I've worked.

[M14_P]

Finally, something interesting being discussed in this forum instead of (what school should I go to? or what headset do u use? or what is better, the glass panel warrior or the learjet type 545533 version a with unducted turbo fans). lol
Chimbu, awesome vids. Tell me that wasn't u doing the 8 point roll? HOW do you do that? I was tearing around in my mates tiger yesterday on a beautiful NZ winter's day as it turns out, and I am still trying to get my slow rolls right nevermind an 8 pointer!
Have you ever done an aerobatic competitions in the Tiger?

I also start them from behind, when doing joyrides (several in a row), when the eng is warm, I happily start them without chocks, I put my foot in front of the tyre however if it is just the one flight at a time I put the chocks in place and just take my time.
Here is one of Gav's pics from a shoot we did earlier in the year. http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/3/3/0/1883033.jpg (http://www.airliners.net/photo/De-Havilland-New/1883033/L/&sid=84d4254086e0be1e76374f5268b1af57)

[M14_P]

Just a quick one on removing chocks...yeh a mate of mine has a midget, what worries me about hand swinging from in front is being so far away from the throttle and mags....and in a really dodgy position should the brakes fail or chocks forget to be put in place....
I think that is what is so good about the Tiger, the prop has enormous ground clearance, and you can comfortably walk down the wing with your right hand touching the leading edge) to remove chocks. A mate of mine gave a chocks away signal for me to get down to take them away from the Triplane he was about to go flying in....oh boy, that was scary. I had no idea how close the prop was to the front wheels until I was down there carefully removing the chock without flinging it into the prop....freaky stuff. :eek:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Tell me that wasn't u doing the 8 point roll? HOW do you do that? I was tearing around in my mates tiger yesterday on a beautiful NZ winter's day as it turns out, and I am still trying to get my slow rolls right nevermind an 8 pointer!

Have you ever done an aerobatic competitions in the Tiger?

Yes, it was me.

You need 120KIAS to start with. Think long and hard about what you need to do with the controls to achieve an 8 point roll - couch fly it - then go up and have a go - DO NOT think about what you need to do with the controls when you're actually doing it - its all about timing - rhythm if you like.

No - it has been suggested - I think I need more practice.

[A37575]

.s. I've always found the C150 etc a difficult aircraft to swing, because the magneto impulse point is so low that you are literally bending down / over, and slightly out of balance in that swinging motion....ooops

The Cessna 150 etc comes with a serviceable battery with which to start the engine as per Pilot Information Manual. There is nothing in the POH on how to start the engine by turning the prop. The Cessna 150 etc is not certified for hand starting and it should never be attempted. It is potentially lethal as the grade 3 instructor found out to his cost at GFS Point Cook a few years ago.

If the operator cannot afford a battery then it smacks of cost-cutting/penny pinching. But of course - typical general aviation operation:mad:

[fatboywings]

‪Tiger Moth Start Sequence‬‏ - YouTube

You need to have a technique which is safe and more importantly, you have confidence in. It is the people whom are scared that often get bitten. I am not saying there is any one way to start a Tigermoth, just demonstrating the in front sequence.

A self start can be achieved, sure, but no pax on board. Simple instruction on removing chocks is fine and that leaves the pilot free to start and climb in, get settled, then call chocks away and have passenger climb in. albeit it is better to have a ground crew.

[Feather #3]

Hmm....was there anything missing from the video...discuss??:)

G'day ;)

[fatboywings]

I am also interested to see discussions on the technique used, but what is it that you think is forgotten? I am intrigued.

[Brian Abraham]

"Hi Max.....I heard your weapon jammed?" We ALL knew the story.
CC, do you know what the problems were the Meteors had? Love to hear it, if there is a story to be told that is.

[M14_P]

All the same, that 8 pointer looked good for a tiger. I enjoy barrel rolls and stall turns in the Tiger the most.
Must work on those slow rolls some more I think. :)

cheers

[boofta]

Chimbu I concur on Max Holdsworth, did an instrument rating test in the mid 1970's with this obnoxious,snarly,nasty old buzzard and experienced the worst
behaviour I have ever seen in my career. An example of creating a terrible cockpit atmosphere to bring out nothing but fear and loathing in
the candidate. A classic ex RAAF dicky wacker who obviously detested
his job and everyone who crossed his path.

[nitpicker330]

My x RAAF CFI in the early 80's steadfastly maintained the only correct and safe way to swing a Tiger was from the front. The swinging action naturally moved your Arm and body forward and away from the Prop.
He learned to fly in Tigers and also had considerable time instructing on them in the RAAF.

He actually hated the things, he said they should all be pushed in a ditch and burnt!!! cranky old bugger :{

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yup that was Max.

No idea why but apparently his cannons fired about 1 round each before they all failed. He burnt his remaining fuel whistling past very close trying to tip the Auster over with wake turbulence.

[CHAIRMAN]

Hmmm. Why throttle wide when 'blowing out' the gipsy?

[fatboywings]

Hi Chairman,

there are two typical start routines with the tiger.
a cold start has the throttle closed and 8 blades forwards (some older school instructors altered this to 4 blades forwards before contact).
a hot start is throttle wide and 8 blades backwards.

With the throttle wide you obtain the correct air fuel mixture and avoid flooding. The hot start technique is also used to "blow out" excess fuel when the engine is flooded.

regards
ben

[Dixons Cider]

From where this Ppruner sat in his car there was no sign of any chocks in front of the wheels of the Tiger Moth

Are you for real!

Once upon a time cut my teeth in a Tiger on joyflight ops. Never a chock in sight, and pilot starting, alone. Are you gonna hammer me for that?

What we did have was a tail hook, a cockpit release, and mighty big stake in the dirt. That Tiger was never going to move, nor could it raise its tail should the throttle be set incorrectly.

Now if you were there at the time, you would tell me that because you coudn't see any chocks from the comfort of your car, I'm wrong? Cause if you did, I'd dispute it with gusto.

I was once upon a time hammered in print for my starting technique at an airshow, possibly also from someone safely ensconced within a car. Had that person taken the time to remove ones arse from ones car, and enquire as to what was going on, they may have discovered that the technique used was quite possibly safer that the time honoured technique of old.

My point is - all is not always what it seems.
And you play a risky game accusing others based on what you think you know.

[CHAIRMAN]

Thanks fatboy - What has concerned me is that most 'runaways' have been caused by a solo hand swinger forgetting to close the throttle after the 'blow' 'suck' routine. An open throttle at any time during start has to add another element of risk.

Anyway, couple of us now use for cold start (on tigers) - tickle, 8 back, 4 to 6 forward. Hot start (within about 10 minutes after shutting down) simply contact and swing. If hot start method unsuccessful then revert to cold start method.

All with throttle fully closed. An open throttle during any part of this semms to make no difference.

Have you or anyone else tried this? - and would your method work with the throttle closed?