Sitting in the Right Hand Seat as P1.

[The Dead Side]

Hi All,

I'd like a piece of advice if possible please;

I'm hoping to take a friend flying to take some photos of his house from the air. I'll mention now that he is in no way qualified to fly, but just wants to get the best possible shots.

Unfortunately, the only way of getting decent photographs from a PA-28 is through the hatch window on the left hand side. What are the rules and regulations regarding letting him sit on the left hand side, whilst I fly as P1 on the right hand side?

All the instruments are shared, so there are very few instrument differences. Also, I've flown this very aircraft as P2 on the right hand side, so I have no qualms in doing so.

Appreciate your help on this,

Dead Side.

[Mictheslik]

Can't help with the legalities of flying P1 in the RHS, but as a photographer who's taken photos from a PA28, you can shoot through the perspex.....just got to work out where the non-curved parts are and it helps to have a rubber lens hood to get rid of reflections :)

.mic

[ShyTorque]

Some Flight Manuals give guidance on this. What does yours say?

Also:
Can you reach everything?
Can you fly it properly from that seat?
Does that seat have brake pedals?
Does the owner allow it?
Does the insurer allow it?

Be careful.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

TDS,

I spent most of last Summer flying P1 from the right hand seat on aerial photo 'sorties'.

It's simple -

Is it legal? Yes, doesn't matter where the commander sits so long as he/she is a pilot and has access to the full range of controls.

Is it safe? So long as you have recent currency and are comfortable flying from the RHS, then yes. I won't patronize you with the ins and outs of why, as I'm sure you're aware, suffice to say, remember you'll be throttling with a hand not used to throttling, and controlling with a hand... Etc.

Be safe, and if in any doubt, go up for a few circuits with an instructor first :ok:

p.s. despite the remark above, the pictures will never be as good through perspex, curve or no curve. You'll only get the best quality when there's nothing between the camera lens and the object(s) you're shooting. Have you considered the Cessna 172 - you can open the whole window then!

[Ryan5252]

Also worth considering that not all PA28's have toe brakes fitted to the RHS! There are few AAIB reports where the man in the right overlooked this fact.

[SkyCamMK]

Dual controls are exactly that but the experience of using a new seat and of using the other hand while concentrating and circling at 1200 feet or so can be hazardous and more so if you use flap.

Of course it all depends on your skill, attitude and experience.

Your mate will probably find it difficult finding his house and also pointing it out to you so that you can keep it in range and in sight.

I would not bother with a PA28 for this task of course but if that is all you have please take care. You cannot afford to get involved with his viewfinder skills whilst flying. Make sure your stall warner is working and that you can recover from spiral descent and incipient spin in case you overdo the bank/speed/AoA etc don't forget Murphy's Law

Hope they turn out OK

[gooneydog]

You will also have to "hope" that you do not need to change fuel tanks while airborne !!!!!!

[Halfbaked_Boy]

You cannot afford to get involved with his viewfinder skills whilst flying.

Had to laugh at this one - not in a 'have a poke' way at you though! :p

I spent 50% of my time looking out the left window past my photographer to help him get the best shots during steep turns, 45% of the time looking out ahead for other aircraft, and about 5% on the instruments. No stall warner!

Point being, it's amazing how a little intensive flying allows you to fly completely by noise and vibration alone! I'm sure anyone who's done this will know exactly what I mean!

Anyway, this aint about me, back to topic :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Also worth considering that not all PA28's have toe brakes fitted to the RHS! There are few AAIB reports where the man in the right overlooked this fact.

Yes, see post #3

[BackPacker]

What are the rules and regulations regarding letting him sit on the left hand side, whilst I fly as P1 on the right hand side?

So, to summarize, there are no specific rules that force the PIC to sit on the LHS. There may be specific rules in the POH ("solo from rear seat only" in a tandem seater for instance) but AFAIK that doesn't apply to the PA28.

Obviously you need to have access to all the instruments, levers and such for the flight required. In case of the PA28, you will probably want to give the pax a thorough briefing on switching fuel tanks, and maybe (re)starting the engine (if the starter is out of your reach). And it may not be the best of ideas for an IFR flight (which this isn't) unless all instruments are duplicated.

Furthermore, it's not a bad idea to get some experience flying (and landing) from the RHS. The picture is different, you've got to swap hands and such. Not particularly difficult, but you'll want to be careful the first few times.

Also, I've flown this very aircraft as P2 on the right hand side

There's no such thing as a P2 in a PA28 since it's a single pilot aircraft. The only way two people can log time simultaneously in a PA28 is the instructor/student or examiner/student scenario. Unless you were involved in operations which, per company SOP, required a two-man crew. Which is very, very unlikely in a PA28.

Does the owner allow it?
Does the insurer allow it?

Good point and it might be worth checking. I know some schools/clubs only allow you to fly PIC from the RHS after a specific checkout. Makes sense.

[SkyCamMK]

Re Halfbakedboy and my comment on Viewfinder skills

Yes I know what you mean and so do I but then we probably have thousands of hours and are quite skilled at what we do.

I should have said leave the camera to him and just fly the aircraft

When doing this for myself I tend to keep the wingtip on the target but you can imagine how with both leaning left to see past a low wing etc?

Anyway I was only trying to help a newbie to aerial photo work because if he takes an interest in it he will be well rewarded.

Edit if you are using the little window you could just set up a mock approach to the target and fly smoothly at 80 with carb heat and 20 deg flap and then practise a go around to do another run.

[trex600]

You will also have to "hope" that you do not need to change fuel tanks while airborne

WHY?

[172driver]

Edit if you are using the little window you could just set up a mock approach to the target and fly smoothly at 80 with carb heat and 20 deg flap and then practise a go around to do another run.

Excellent advice - I've done just that for a friend a few years ago - works a treat :ok:

[robin]

You will also have to "hope" that you do not need to change fuel tanks while airborne

WHY?

I assume this is an innocent question, but try switching the tanks from the RH seat when the control is on the left wall behind the leg of the LH seat occupant.

[S-Works]

I do hope that none of these pictures have been or will be sold with a PPL at the controls.......

[maxred]

They may well have an AOC bose:uhoh::uhoh:

[The Dead Side]

Thanks all for your responses.

You will also have to "hope" that you do not need to change fuel tanks while airborne

I'll brief the passenger on the fuel tank switcher, so that won't be a problem. :ok:

There's no such thing as a P2 in a PA28 since it's a single pilot aircraft. The only way two people can log time simultaneously in a PA28 is the instructor/student or examiner/student scenario. Unless you were involved in operations which, per company SOP, required a two-man crew. Which is very, very unlikely in a PA28.

Thanks for the correction. :)

I do hope that none of these pictures have been or will be sold with a PPL at the controls.......

I'm a PPL, and unless my friend plans on selling his photos to his mother then I very much doubt there will be a problem. I have to admit, I was waiting for someone to bring that up....

[trex600]

Gooneydog, Robin
I stand corrected, i had a Pa38 in mind for some reason :)

[Ryan5252]

I'll brief the passenger on the fuel tank switcher, so that won't be a problem.
It would be technically illegal to allow him to switch tanks though. Technically... :ok:

[jollyrog]

How do you propose to do the power checks, as per the POH?

[FlyingKiwi_73]

lets just hope he doesn't say, "So i guess OFF means cross feed right? hey did it just get real quiet?"

I'd sit in the cockpit for five minutes, close my eyes and feel the difference btween the Throttle and Mixture lever. mentally picturing each one when holding it. I know they are very different (non vernier versions anyway) but i would practice.

[stevelup]

How do you propose to do the power checks, as per the POH?

Why would the power checks be any harder from the right hand seat in a PA28?

It would be technically illegal to allow him to switch tanks though.

Why would it be illegal?

Not being argumentative, just curious...

[Halfbaked_Boy]

stevelup,

I guess it's 'cos he's not a pilot, and our friend here is (presumably) not an instructor.

I am no expert though. :p

jollyrog, I'm also curious! Running through the PA28 c/list in my mind, but it's been a while, and I can't think of anything that would present too much difficulty...?

[stevelup]

I guess it's 'cos he's not a pilot, and our friend here is (presumably) not an instructor.

It's irrelevant though?

The pilot is still P1, the passenger is still nothing more than a passenger. Unless the POH prohibits flight from the right seat as P1, there is no way it can be illegal.

[mad_jock]

Its perfectly legal for the photographer to fly the machine never mind operate the fuel tank selector.

After partners have done the safety pilot course which I might add is a bit weird for the instructor because you teach it in the LHS they are encouraged to fly the plane and practise while flying with thier partner.

Its no great shakes operating a PA28 from the RHS. Instructors round the world do it day in day out. We don't get given any special training during the FIC in fact mostly FIC's are done in C150's. All you do is give the person in the LHS a brief on the ground when they get in, about what you want them to do and let them have a couple of shots with the engine off. The swapping over during the power checks confirms that they know what to do.

And to the orginal poster don't let the "experence" get the better of you. I have seen 1000 hour plus instructors scare themselves pooless doing a bit of adhock photography when they got too focused on the photography.

[Ryan5252]

Its perfectly legal for the photographer to fly the machine never mind operate the fuel tank selector.

I respectfully disagree.

A person shall not act as a flight crew member of a
civil aeroplane/helicopter registered in a JAA Member
State unless that person holds a valid licence and
rating complying with the requirements of JAR-FCL
and appropriate to the duties being performed, or an
authorisation as set out in JAR-FCL 1.085/2.085 and/or
1.230/2.230.
Shirely manipulating the controls of the aircraft is 'acting as a flight crew member'? I'd imagine that's what an insurer would say anyway...

[stevelup]

Well, in that case, myself and just about every other PPL are constantly breaking the law and invalidating our insurance.

I often let my passengers have a go, and so does everyone I know.

[Ryan5252]

Well, in that case, myself and just about every other PPL are constantly breaking the law and invalidating our insurance.

I often let my passengers have a go, and so does everyone I know.
As do I and everyone I know too, and Im sure we don't know the same circle of pilots! I did say technically, didn't I? :p

[Tinstaafl]

It's not difficult to operate *all* controls from the RHS in a PA28 - including fuel selector & mag/starter. I know I never had an issue with it when I instructed on PA28s. As instructors it's done frequently.

Unless the aircraft's flight manual mandates a particular seat for SP operation then there isn't a restriction. Apart from making sure you're competent, of course.

[SkyCamMK]

Here here! Tinstaafl

Fuel selector is not an issue and OFF is gated.

I am tempted to say there is a lot of advice given but really I think we are beginning to go over the top.

It is not a big deal if you are sensible.

Good luck!

[Halfbaked_Boy]

mad_jock,

Its perfectly legal for the photographer to fly the machine never mind operate the fuel tank selector.

It surprises me you say this, as I am sure it's incorrect.

The safety pilot course does not make it legal for 'partners' to fly. It allows them to at least land in some kind of safe manner following incapacitation of their other half/father/brother/daughter/son etc etc. It just means in the worst situation, there is at least a chance of everybody living, as opposed to dying.

If the photographer is not a pilot, how is it legal for them to act as a crew member, i.e. operate anything that affects the way the aeroplane works?

Perhaps a better way I'd like to pose this to you is - where would you draw the line? Letting your passenger operate certain items, such as the fuel selector, the COM and NAV dials etc etc... Or 'having a go', under your very careful supervision... But if we take this all the way, it ends up with them flying the aeroplane completely while you have your eyes shut!

I just feel there is no grey area in the law, i.e. it's not allowed full stop, otherwise there would be people saying, "Hmmm, but I was watching them very carefully!"

Don't get me wrong, everyone I take flying has a go (under my very careful supervision :ok:) but I know it's illegal.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers.

[BillieBob]

To summarise:

There is nothing in UK law to prevent an aircraft being flown from the right seat, provided that all necessary controls can be reached, unless there is a specific prohibition in the POH/Flight Manual.

The PA28 can be flown perfectly safely from the right seat and all controls can be easily reached (including the fuel selector). I have, on more than one occasion, flown a PA28 solo from the right seat with no difficulty.

There is nothing in UK law to prevent a passenger handling the controls of an aircraft on a private flight. The reference to JAR-FCL 1.010 quoted by Ryan5252, apart from not being UK law, is irrelevant as simply handling the controls does not automatically make one a 'flight crew member'.

The only considerations are the insurance requirements and the advisability of familiarisation training in the right seat.

[Ryan5252]

The reference to JAR-FCL 1.010 quoted by Ryan5252, apart from not being UK law,
Not wishing to be pedantic but why isn't this UK law considering this extract from JAR-FCL is quoted in Lassors?
is irrelevant as simply handling the controls does not automatically make one a 'flight crew member'.
Nor did anyone assert that by 'simply handling the controls' makes one a 'flight crew member' as we all know it does not. But, by operating the controls one is acting as a flight crew member which is where the exclusion applies if said person does not hold the appropriate licence/rating.

The only considerations are the insurance requirements
The above example would be an insurance requirement.

[BillieBob]

Not wishing to be pedantic but why isn't this UK law considering this extract from JAR-FCL is quoted in Lassors?Because LASORS has even less legal standing than JAR-FCL. UK aviation law is laid down in the Air Navigation Order, which includes no prohibition on a passenger handling the controls on a private flight.
by operating the controls one is acting as a flight crew memberDon't be silly! In a single pilot aeroplane on a private flight there can be only one crew member - the PIC. You may 'act' the fool but it doesn't necessarily make you one.

[Ryan5252]

Thanks for the info much appreciated :ok:
You may 'act' the fool but it doesn't necessarily make you one.
Try telling that to my misses!! :eek:

[mad_jock]

Insurance are fine with it. We checked for club rentals for after people had done the safety pilot course.

[mad_jock]

Enjoy it while you can though. There is nothing to say that EASA doesn't have a little gem tucked in there somewhere which will make it illegal.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

BillieBob,

Interesting.

So it would be legal for my passenger to land the aeroplane?

They cannot fly, nor hold a licence to. I am not an instructor.

But they could land, legally?

Cheers.

[stevelup]

Legally I do not see why they couldn't.

The PIC would of course be wholly responsible for the outcome though.

[mad_jock]

I would go with that as well.

There is nothing wrong with someone using the radio either without a license under the supervision of a license holder.

But if anything does go wrong you would be hard pushed to justify yourself.

[BillieBob]

So it would be legal for my passenger to land the aeroplane?
There is nothing in UK law specifically to prevent a passenger from handing the controls in any phase of a private flight. However, it is an offence to recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft. In the event of an accident, you might have to prove that your actions in allowing your passenger to handle the aircraft controls in a critical phase of flight did not constitute such an offence.I am not an instructor.An instructor rating is required only to give instruction to a person for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot's licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating or qualification in a pilot's licence.

[BabyBear]

An instructor rating is required only to give instruction to a person for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot's licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating or qualification in a pilot's licence.

So if this is the case is it acceptable to have differences training from pilots who are not FIs? EG tailwheel.

BB

[BackPacker]

So if this is the case is it acceptable to have differences training from pilots who are not FIs? EG tailwheel.

There are a few specific cases where the ANO (and similar rules) require differences training from a suitably qualified instructor. Tailwheel is one of them. So for tailwheel, the answer is no.

However, there is no such requirement for, for instance, aerobatics. So legally speaking anybody can teach you aerobatics, even if that person doesn't hold a (legal/current) PPL.

(Whether that's a wise idea is another matter altogether, and it looks like this is one of the areas that's going to change under EASA. But that's a different discussion.)

[Fuji Abound]

Babybear

I think you raise the same somewhat circular debate.

You are required to have an instructor's sign off for any differences - note instructor not examiner - that much is certain.

Could you handle the controls to gain some tail wheel experience under the supervision of a PPL who is not formally instructing you. Who knows and maybe who cares. Is he instructing you or isnt he - what would his insurance company think if they knew. The fact is he is in command and is responsible if anything goes wrong and he most certainly cannot be paid. You would probably find if you were friends with such a PPL you would become very good at tail wheel flying so when you presented yourself to an instructor for an hour of difference training and a sign off you breeze through.

[BillieBob]

So if this is the case is it acceptable to have differences training from pilots who are not FIs? EG tailwheel.No. Differences training is conducted for the purpose of the variation of an aircraft rating (e.g. to extend the validity of an SEP Class Rating to tailwheel aircraft).

[BabyBear]

Could you handle the controls to gain some tail wheel experience under the supervision of a PPL who is not formally instructing you. Who knows and maybe who cares. Is he instructing you or isnt he - what would his insurance company think if they knew. The fact is he is in command and is responsible if anything goes wrong and he most certainly cannot be paid. You would probably find if you were friends with such a PPL you would become very good at tail wheel flying so when you presented yourself to an instructor for an hour of difference training and a sign off you breeze through.

This fully answers the question I didn't spell out fully, thanks.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

BillieBob and mad_jock, many thanks - ten years of flying and I never knew that (or began to think about it in enough detail).

Of course I could have checked the ANO, but that requires effort.


:ok: