EK's Arbitrary 55t Requirement

[cf680c2b]

Where did this come from, because 55t seems to determine a whole lot in EK.

B717/A318 = >55t (almost)
B747/A380 = >55t

very different aircraft............very different missions. So where is the sliding scale? 2000 hours on the 717-200/A318 is the same as 2000 hours on the B747/A380 for EK?

Doesn't make sense to me guys/gals, maybe someone can explain the logic.

[fatbus]

I think it was the BA146

[John21UK]

True, however;

BAe146-RJ100/Embraer190/195 = 51/52.3T. Nearly same weights & mission > different philosophy/type of operation.

You can't tell me 2.7T or even 5T for that matter makes that much of a diff.

[jackbauer]

55T eliminates anyone on smaller than 737. No Tonka jets allowed

[Will Rogers]

To sum it up (and without stepping on anyones toes): It is an absolutely ridiculous requirement that, short from satisfying someones personal belief of what makes a good captain, does absolutely nothing except that it prevents a large number of otherwise and apparently qualified individuals from even going through a command selection process!

Will :)

[eagerbeaver1]

way of the world old fruit.

My commision to the RAF was ended because someone had the effrontery to assualt me with some kitchen knives and a pistol. I could not meet the joining criteria and that was that.

Sometimes we don't get the break we feel we deserve.

What are you currently flying?

[Wizofoz]

It was a requirement that came from well up the chain of command, and was nothing more than a window-dressing, "being seen to do something" exersize in the wake of Melbourne.

[cf680c2b]

I'm not familiar with what happened in Melbourne.

But, setting a 55t floor for entry or advancement completely disregards mission compatibility. 55t and above is a broad category. wouldn't it be sensible to be more specific, for example:

55t -104t = 2000 hours
105t - 159t = 1000
160t or greater = 500

Wouldn't a sliding scale as such provide more flexibility for advancing current crews and hiring future crews?

This is just as arbitrary but at least more specific.

[Will Rogers]

Wizofoz: Which of course also brings home the point as I don't believe the Captain on the 345 in MEL used to fly aircraft <55T (please correct me if I'm wrong). So that it came as a result of MEL, although true, makes no sense!?!?!?

Eagerbeaver: While I'm sorry to hear about how your career in the RAF ended I don't believe it has many similarities with the EK arbitrary 55T requirement (good title for the thread by the way :ok:).

In your situation your personal circumstances changed resulting in you not meeting the requirements for the RAF. As sad as that is it is the same in the airline world if you were to loose your medical for example. That is not what has happened in EK.

In EK there are a whole lots of people that joined while this requirement did not exists (i.e. pre MEL) and while the same qualifications that got them the interview and that also got them through the interview did NOT change the airline decided to change the criteria for upgrades.

So with the risk of sounding like a kid here it's just not fair that the people recruited while the rule did not apply are subject to it := (and before anyone starts shooting at me; I know that is how it is and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it, ok :ugh:)

I believe that everyone should be given a fair chance. Sure there are guys that have flown aircraft <55T that are not qualified to be captains, just like there are people that have flown aircraft >55T that are not qualified to be captains either. Like I said: everyone should be given the same chance. Have a command selection when the time comes. Do a sim-check and take it from there. If you pass and are deemed qualified then you are (55T or not). And if you don't pass then wait for the next chance.

Now for people that join since the 55T requirement was put in place it is a bit of a different situation. They knew upon joining (one would hope) that they would need x hours in aircraft over 55T before they could upgrade.

Anyhow, we don't live in a fair environment (or world for that matter) and it's not going to change for the foreseeable future so time to suck it up and smile :}

Will :)

[Wizofoz]

Wizofoz: Which of course also brings home the point as I don't believe the Captain on the 345 in MEL used to fly aircraft <55T (please correct me if I'm wrong). So that it came as a result of MEL, although true, makes no sense!?!?!?



Never said it made sense, Will.

It's just policy...

[CAYNINE]

For those of you that have been here 5 minutes, the 55 ton requirement started about 8 years ago.

Lots of BAe146 pilots arrived from all over but mainly Kiwis and Ozzies and a couple had some probs in initial training, this had really nothing to do with the previous type experience but the Gods at the top decided that 55 ton would exclude most classic types which were at the time mainly analogue instrumented.

So, chaps, nothing to do with Melbourne, the Captain of Melbourne or any other incident or training event you may wish to conjure up. sorry.

:(

(Fatbus you were obviously here and can confirm)

[Wizofoz]

CAYNINE,

The 55t "Hard time" rule for upgrade was introduced with the FCI on upgrade and fleet transfer, along with the 4000hr "Emirates type" and 1000hr on type requirements.

I don't think it was in the FOM and it STILL isn't in the OM-A.

Are you sure it pre-dates Melbourne?

[fatbus]

Caynine is correct, it was brought as a change to the accelerated requirements
8ish years ago

[Wizofoz]

OK- But included in the overall requirements with the FCI?

[emratty]

It is correct the 55T rule was there for the accelerated guys about 8 years ago however for the normal upgrade i.e 3 years in the company the 55T rule came in after Melbourne.
It was a knee jerk reaction from the company but at the same time it was when we had some very poor new pilots joining from regional jets who required large amounts of extra training and as a result of this all the regional jet pilots got placed in the same boat no matter how competent they were.

[Instant Hooligan]

The FCI detailing new requirements for upgrade was originally introduced late May of 2009 (Check out FCI 2011-005 which is a reissue of the original). Prior to this time there was no 4000 hour "hard time requirement" to upgrade. Hard time being in aircraft above 55T.

Caynine and Fatbus I know of the 55T issue you reference it's not the same as this.

Many capable F/O's are getting screwed for command by this. Many with multiple thousands of hours of jet PIC already just not above 55T.

It'll be close to 6 years for these guys to upgrade all the while some career F\O's who have been flying round Europe their entire career in 73's or 320's are deemed more qualified just because they flew marginally larger a\c.

PIC time we are told is the Holy Grail, get it and never pass up a command they say, well that's all well and good but it don't matter for nowt at EK.

Size matters here just like their TALL empty skyscrapers.

Regards
IH

[Will Rogers]

As said by previous posters this requirement for upgrades only came into effect after MEL. If this requirement would have been there when I accepted the offer to join I, along with many of my peers, would have not accepted :hmm:

Instant Hooligan: With regards to your comments on guys getting screwed and career F/O's - Well Said! :ok:

Will :)

[littlejet]

The rule is there, just to make FO's fly more and not call sick. Maybe they will invent something similar for captains but it is more complicated.

[Praise Jebus]

If this requirement would have been there when I accepted the offer to join I, along with many of my peers, would have not accepted

Probably not, but there were certainly more than a few indications since 2003 that things change here constantly and for the most part without apparent logic, did you not notice that? We need more pilots, all please apply, but note the above so in a few years time you don't start complaining, "its not fair".

[Flyer1015]

All EK jets are greater than 55 tons. Any lack of 55ton+ time can be had as an FO at EK. Right?

The main barrier to entry is the 30ton rule. Still in effect, I presume?

[Will Rogers]

Praise Jebus,

Yes you're right. Things have constantly changed here just like it has in most airlines around the world. How could we possibly be so dumb as to accept a job offer under those conditions??? We should have known better and stayed in whatever jobs we were in so that we wouldn't be here complaining about how unfair it is. Believe it or not, I actually don't complain and in this case I'm simply stating the fact (for it is a fact regardless of how you twist it) that this new-ish rule is UNFAIR.

As I wrote in a previous post I understand that things change here and I do accept that although I do not have to agree with all of it. In addition this extreme change only came about after MEL and there is no way that any of us could have foreseen the MEL event and the fallout from it when we joined. There is absolutely no way to take ALL things into consideration when you make the decision to accept. Now we're here and like I said earlier; we suck it up and do our jobs to the best of our abilities...

Now if you can tell me a good way of reasoning that makes the 55T change "fair" (or if you can come up with a better word then unfair) for those of us who were here before the rule was invented then I'm all ears. :)

Wizofoz: It was not in the FOM and it is not in the OM-A as of yet but the latest update to the FCI states that it will be written in to the OM-A in the next revision.

Flyer1015: As for your 55T question the answer is yes. No idea about the 30T "rule" although I hear it is very loosely enforced...

[cf680c2b]

So,

-2000 hours of 30t to join
- ? hours of ?t to get the 340
-2000 hours of 55t to get the 380?
-4000 hours of 55t to get command?

Is that all :{ or did I simplify that a bit too much?

I wonder what the 748 requirements will be.

[ruserious]

I think it is fair to say that the relatively bad experience EK had with people off so called little and classic aircraft was more to do with their training system being almost totally geared towards already rated glass-cockpit pilots.

So the 55T is probably more to do with training deficiencies than anything else

[fatbus]

Would it make you feel better if they said A319/B737ng or bigger? This is just a tool to sort the CV's. If you don't have the time too bad for now. SAI wanted 3000 command time if I only had 2000 should they change it for me? I hate to say it but deal with it!Move on ,next?

[Praise Jebus]

Will, I sympathise with you if the rule has affected you, but only so much. The question of fairness in any business in the ME is irrelevant. At EK a few guys get together once a week in a plush office and decide the rules, do you think any of them stop and say, "hang on a minute, that rule will be a bit unfair to FO Will Rogers, lets not do it"? No shareholders, no board of directors or onions to answer to. Not the same as the airlines around the world you refer to. Its what gives them the edge. And we have to realise that the process will involve shaftings from time to time. In 2000 GF went swimming with a 320 and for a brief period, in response to it, required hrs for command at EK went to 9000. And it wasn't even our accident... Reactions to incidents have and will continue at EK just as they will also continue to defy reason. Yet when guys arrive and their conditions change, its described as "unfair" and "absolutely ridiculous" . In truth they are, but they are also absolutely predictable. Buyer beware.

[Wizofoz]

IF they insist on discrimination based on previous type, we should remember that "Size doesn''t matter".

Judging experience based on the MTOW of the aircraft is ludicrous.

What counts a LOT more is:-

1)The technological similarity of the previous type to an Emirates type.

2) The SOPs previously used

and

3) How many sectors they have flown, and where to!

Having flown an FMC equipped Boeing or ANY airbus, having operated under JAR or similar rules, and having done a shed load of sectors are all more important than having flown something big.

Steely recently stated at a training meeting that they have not had one failure of a pilot coming from a European LOCO, while guys coming with thousands of hours on Classic 747s have struggled.

[eagerbeaver1]

WizofOz,

What I meant was there are entry requirement rules which I could not meet due to my circumstance (personal or not).

I dont meet Virgin atlantics entry requirements (type rated on 744 or airbus)

I passed Emirates and start soon. Is it kicking off there yet?

[Wizofoz]

eager,

If by "Kicking off" you mean some form of pro-democracy demonstration, hell yes!!

103 intellectuals and eminent Emiraties sent a politely worded letter to the UAE Government, requesting they consider some minor reforms....

SO-VIVA LES REVOLUTION!!!!

No mate, there will not be any unrest here. UAE Citizens are QUITE content with their lot in life!!!

[Will Rogers]

Much like the guys that got upset about the DEWA cap, the limit to days off in a row and the change in the productivity threshold etc, etc. should all have seen it coming so what were they thinking when they complained about that? :confused:

I'm not asking for sympathy, I'm am only stating the fact that the implementation of the rule was done in an unfair (getting to be a big word here) manner. I have said again and again that I understand that there always have been and always will be changes that affect us in a negative way as that is how it works down here. Like I've also said that I accept that I have to live with that but it doesn't stop me from having the right to say I don't like it. If you were to look at the "real" world one would think that they would have used "grandfather rights" for people that joined before. Much like they should have done when the changed the other conditions in our contracts. Now you, I and everyone else know that will never happen down here. Again, a fact of life in the desert.

As for the special treatment you are referring to I never said I should be treated differently from all the rest and I wouldn't expect any company in the world to make rulings based on the effect it may have on one person. This has affected A LOT of people though and I would not be surprised if a certain nationality, which represents a lot of these people, saw a huge decrease in numbers once the market opens up a bit more (which it is already starting to do). So maybe they should "stop and say, "hang on a minute, that rule will be a bit unfair" as it will result in a lot of guys potentially leaving which would affect the airline in a negative way. I know; that's also not gonna happen! :ugh:

All I said was that I think EVERYONE should be give a fair chance. 55T experience or not. That's my view anyway...

As I don't know how long you have been here it's hard to figure out how many changes you have gone through but I'm sure that you haven't agreed with all of them and that you've felt like you have been treated unfairly once or twice!? I sincerely hope that you always look in the mirror and tell yourself: tough! should have seen that coming, let's move along now.

As for what type of aircraft (or what weight for that matter) I agree with Wizofoz 100%. There is nothing to say that you are better qualified because it was bigger or heavier. A lot of the "small jets" out there are a lot better equipped then the archaic stuff we fly around. There are also quite a few of them that have more or less the same range that many of the EK airplanes and as a result the operations do not differ that much apart from the number of passengers carried.

That's about all I have to say for myself on that subject so I'm gonna disregard fatbus comments apart from the last one and "move on" and enjoy my life here in sunny Dubai.

Happy flying! :ok:

[cf680c2b]

Steely recently stated at a training meeting that they have not had one failure of a pilot coming from a European LOCO, while guys coming with thousands of hours on Classic 747s have struggled.

Getting through the initial is one thing........upgrade to command is another. The 22 yr old LCC chap who paid for his training and uniform, flying 400nm sectors (no offense to the LCC guys) is not par with GV Capt. flying across the Pacific at FL550 on a regular basis or an A340/744 guy with operational experience in virtually every continent. Hence, their career progression path should not be the same.

So if you are going to set a silly 55t rule then you better expand on it, giving a bit more credit to previous command and/or heavy experience. That would be more equitable to the parties involved and advantages to the company.

But, that is just my opinion :hmm:

[Will Rogers]

Hear, hear! :ok:

Sorry, couldn't stop myself. I'm done now - honestly! :}

Will :)

[Wizofoz]

....OR just accept that, regardless of previous experience, some will and some won't cut it, so either give everyone a go and let them pass or fail, OR attempt to judge guys capability based on actual performance and testing, not hours in the book...

[eagerbeaver1]

cf6802cb - I agree, seems they are disqualifying a lot of very able people over a number.

Write them a letter.

[Dune]

I don't know how many 100's of times I've read over the past 6 years individuals complaining how "unfair" something is at Emirates.

While I truly empathize with your (and other f/o's personal situations), I truly cannot get it into my head how naive you complainers were to come here and expect something different to what you are getting. The EK history of disregarding contracts, moving goal posts, and continually degrading terms and conditions is EXCEEDING WELL DOCUMENTED ON THIS FORUM over the past 6+ years.

The reality is EK/Al-Redha/Steely/etc don't give a s#it about your aviation career, don't give a s#it about your family, don't give a s#it about your long term health and don't give a s#it about your financial future. All they care about is being able to recruit "bums in seats" to move their shiny machines from point A to point B to grease the EK money making machine and in the process collect their SUBSTANTIAL personal bonus and benefits. Nothing more/nothing less.

You "doe-eyed" saps deserve what you get, as do those who are joining even today to swell the ranks of the future EK disenchanted. The only ones who should come here are those who understood that NOTHING is fair in this company. Fair was thrown out the window when you signed your contract.

You will be treated with as much (or as little) respect as they deem fit to give you. Terms and conditions, career progression and quality of life will strictly be determined by MARKET FORCES. If they can recruit cheap DEC's when required; they will. If they can attract high hour experience f/o's with a mediocre package; they will. If they need to reduce hour requirements to keep the mediocre package in place; they will. The idea is to push it to the limit of maximizing profit while just staying on the "right" side of not killing someone in a crash. It is all driven to that end.

Time to grow up girls and face facts. Nuff said.

[gomets]

Over the summer I corresponded with M.T.....He actually e-mailed me first. Asking if I had anything over 30T. I unfortunately did not.

So unless things have changed since this summer, the 30T limit for FO's still exhists..
Has anyone heard any different lately?

Thnaks

[ruserious]

he reality is EK/Al-Redha/Steely/etc don't give a s#it about your aviation career, don't give a s#it about your family, don't give a s#it about your long term health and don't give a s#it about your financial future. All they care about is being able to recruit "bums in seats" to move their shiny machines from point A to point B to grease the EK money making machine and in the process collect their SUBSTANTIAL personal bonus and benefits. Nothing more/nothing less.

You "doe-eyed" saps deserve what you get, as do those who are joining even today to swell the ranks of the future EK disenchanted. The only ones who should come here are those who understood that NOTHING is fair in this company. Fair was thrown out the window when you signed your contract.

You will be treated with as much (or as little) respect as they deem fit to give you. Terms and conditions, career progression and quality of life will strictly be determined by MARKET FORCES. If they can recruit cheap DEC's when required; they will. If they can attract high hour experience f/o's with a mediocre package; they will. If they need to reduce hour requirements to keep the mediocre package in place; they will. The idea is to push it to the limit of maximizing profit while just staying on the "right" side of not killing someone in a crash. It is all driven to that end.

Very hard to argue with that, spot on

[Aussie]

As far as i know that 30T rule still exists. They are clearly getting the numbers, not desperate, otherwise it would be long gone. :ok:

[CAVnotOK]

I would put money on the 30T rule changing in the very near future.
Watch this space!

Cav.

[donpizmeov]

This thread sums up EK pilots pretty well. Fellas in the company complaining that a change happened that screws them over, (but this change is of course different to all the changes that they were warned of before they joined, as those changes screwed someone else!); and those on the outside still bleating that their wonder jets are not considered manly enough for them to join and also be extra screwed by the gripe of the original topic.

If guys are complaining that having time on stuff under 55t screws your career progression, why would you be bleating that they will not take you with your sub 30t time? Is big and shiny really that important? :ugh:

the don

[StinkyMonkey]

10T coming soon!

[cf680c2b]

some low cost A320 operator in Kuwait just folded so I'm sure a glut of resumes arrived in DXB. Therefore, I question the removal of the 30T anytime soon.

Ek has benefited from the demise of other airlines since its inception.

[Aussie]

The 30T rule will go as soon as the supply dries up... no sign of that for now. :eek:

[leftarmover]

Getting back on topic..
The arbitrary 55 ton rule is the point in question.
‘Dune’, sadly you are so right. What to do..
1/ Apply for job in First World with Airline that recognises existing Command time having stupidly resigned to come to Middle East.. Plus; employment contract then protected by law. Minus; pay half what it was before leaving First World.
2/ Put up and shut up.. Plus; eventually get to cure oneself of ‘big shinny jet disease’. Minus; endure further years acquiring pointless 4000 sudoku/bunk/heading knob twiddling hrs.
3/ Try to galvanise a common voice to represent those of us disadvantaged by this illegal employment contract change.. Plus; get to cure ‘big shinny jet disease’ earlier. Minus; run the risk of losing job for questioning the all-powerful incompetent.
Suggestions?! :rolleyes:

[cf680c2b]

3) ME carriers maintain a perceived advantage by not having unions to contend with so a common voice theory is not viable and will be met with extreme resistance from management (my assumption).

2) If you can bear it for a few more years then do so. That is based on personal tolerance levels.

1) The strongest statement any employee can make about their displeasure is to vote with their feet. Pack and say "bye-bye." Sometimes you have to take one step back to take 2 steps forward.

[Dune]

I'm not a career counselor but here is how I see it.

1/ Apply for job in First World with Airline that recognizes existing Command time having stupidly resigned to come to Middle East.. Plus; employment contract then protected by law. Minus; pay half what it was before leaving First World.

YES.

If you have the aviation career time left (to age 65) to go back to that "1st world job" along with a reasonable financial situation (as long as you are not one of those idiots who blew your EK salary over the last XX years on cars, boats, bars and women) that will allow you to recover financially over the course of your career.

You made the mistake leaving that 1st world job to come here, so it is time to admit to that big mistake, cut your losses and move on.

Sort of like leaving a bad marriage by admitting you made a huge mistake marrying your wife and then moving on to a much better life by getting a divorce and moving onto someone else. It will cost you huge financially but the "quality of life" reward in the end makes up for the financial loss. You ain't got no money but you got a honey:O.


2/ Put up and shut up.. Plus; eventually get to cure oneself of ‘big shinny jet disease’. Minus; endure further years acquiring pointless 4000 sudoku/bunk/heading knob twiddling hrs.

YES.

Should the above option #1 not be available (or hurt too much) then it is time to face facts that you are screwed; that you made a big mistake and learn to live with your poor choices and make the best of it.

Sort of like staying in a bad marriage by admitting you made a huge mistake marrying your wife but not willing to endure the pain to go through a messy divorce. It will cost you huge in the "quality of life" department but the financial reward in the end makes up for the emotional pain. You got tons of money but being with that bitch ain't so funny:bored:.


3/ Try to galvanise a common voice to represent those of us disadvantaged by this illegal employment contract change.. Plus; get to cure ‘big shinny jet disease’ earlier. Minus; run the risk of losing job for questioning the all-powerful incompetent.

NO.

As stated previous, your voice (or any number of pilots voices) in any matter related to Emirates is irrelevant. You're wasting your breath and bandwidth thinking that anything you have to say will in any way affect the way the management of this company will deal with you. Only market forces (mass internal resignations or newbies finally catching on that this job is not "Aviation Nirvana) will EVER change any aspect of how they deal with us. You gave up the opportunity to be part of the "newbie change" crowd when you signed your contract; now your only choice is to be part of the "mass resignation" crowd if/when you've finally had enough.

Sort of like staying in a bad marriage by admitting you made a huge mistake marrying your wife, not willing to endure the pain to go through a messy divorce, and constantly going out to the local bar to cry on your bar stool and complain to everyone who is within listening distance how awful you life is because you complain in your whiny voice that "my wife is such a bitch and just doesn't listen to me". Not only will you have decided to stay with the hag; you will have lost not only your friends respect (they wonder where your balls are) but also your own self respect.

Option 1 or Option 2.

Option 3 just makes you sound like a pimply faced pre-menstrual school girl (no offense to the ladies on this forum!).

[Visual Procedures]

Dune..

Love your work! :D

[leftarmover]

Much appreciate your thoughts.
‘Dune’, thank you for your ‘warts and all’ honesty and integrity. A rare commodity here for sure..
The Middle East really should come with a health, indeed career warning! If, like me, all you have previously known is ‘First World’ employment. Beware..:ouch: