Minimum Instrument Panel - Experimental VFR?

[Sunfish]

What would be a reasonable minimum instrument panel for an experimental VFR aircraft?

Two heads are better than One...


Dynon skyview or similar EFIS/Engine combo

Clock (mandatory)

Hobbes

Compass, Magnetic

Altimeter

Airspeed

VHF

Transponder

Garmin 496 ( overkill if skyview nav avaiiable? )

Loss of a Skyview means:

1. No engine instruments.

2. No voltmeter.

3. No fuel gauges.

Therefore land ASAP? Could one continue to the next destination? I suppose so. Could one take off from there without engine instruments assuming fuel calculations were done? Would that be legal if the engine "sounds right" on a mag check?

[VH-XXX]

If you are talking minimum instrumentation for basic VFR !

Clock (mandatory)
Compass, Magnetic
Altimeter
Airspeed


As far as what you are proposing, it would seem fairly sensible, with or without the 496.

Ideally if you were worried about Skyview failure you would add a few basic engine instruments such as oil pressure, oil temperature and a CHT. That way you can happily keep flying if your Skyview gives up (it has happened before) or if it's out for maintenance or upgrades. You're not talking about a massively significant cost for that, however it certainly gives you far more options.
With the 496, if the Skyview is out of action and you can handle not having a GPS, no dramas.

[Jack Ranga]

Sunfish,

Justification for building your own plane:

I've had several people look at me incredulously when I say I'm building a plane, 'You're actually happy to fly a home made aircraft?'

When you are driving the rivets yourself, you're going to make sure that all of them are near perfect. A Cessna or Piper can have a certain number of rivets that are not ok, they tend to be driven by minimum wage labourers that do not have a stake in the quality of the finish. I will bet that the rivet finish in my aircraft is far better than any GA aircraft.

Apply this to your avionics research, if you feel you don't have the confidence to put together a panel, get a LAME involved. Better still, join a few forums and soak up all that has been written. (Welcome to Doug Reeves' Van's Air Force Web Site (http://www.vansairforce.com)) The vast majority of experimental aircraft have a far superior avionics setup than most GA aircraft. (I'm not talking Kingairs etc)

You can certainly use the CAO's as a starting point. Use TSO'd instruments if you want?

[VH-XXX]

The SAAA has an informative page on VFR & NVFR instruments that talks about what is required:

SAAA - Sports Aircraft Association of Australia - Builders of Experimental Aircraft (http://www.saaa.com/home.php?contentpage=nvfr)

You might find that with the addition of a TSO'ed GPS you will also be NVFR.

[Super Cecil]

Depends what your going to do with the machine, if it's VFR then what's wrong with what Mr X's said?
Old bombs like Pipers just had
Airspeed/Tacho then mag compass with Altimeter/combination gauge
the combination gauge was just oil pressure/oil temp
Really that's all you need, whack a garmin on the dash and your set to tour. Some want tripple IFR garmins with world data bases, just in case they do the round the world trip some day or two ILS's in case they happen into cloud and need to do an approach down to minimums into Mascot.
Some say you need an engine anylizer with five pickups' on each cylinder and gami washers on your needle and seat so yoo can lean it to within a mm of it's life.
So waddya want to have an all singing all dancing bells and whistles jobby or just go for a fly? Choice is yours.

[Chief Wiggam]

Experimental VFR

I thought that's what I was doing up North :ok:

[Old Akro]

The clock can be a wirstwatch, so the aeroplane only actually needs ASI, Altimeter and compass.

[RadioSaigon]

Personally I'd lose the Hobbs -hate those things. Use an air-switch or tacho time.

[VH-XXX]

Forget the Hobbs, the Skyview has all the timers you will ever need.

[Super Cecil]

Older stuff can be granfathered through because they came out without T+B but newer stuff I think would have to have a turn coodinator.

[Jabawocky]

Sunfish

So many questions and you will get no end to the opinions here.

I have changed my offer....don't call me, well call me to make sure I am here to pick you up at YBBN, get on a Virgin Blue flight (we know you won't go with Q group) and come up here for a weekend.

SAAA has the answers but what you really need is a practical approach to what your legally need, what your really need and what you would like to have.

The answer to minimum panel is never going to be what you end up with.

J:ok:

[VH-XXX]

There is a local chapter of the SAAA based at Moorabbin and they will be able to help you out too.

Australian Aviation Organisations Directory: Aero Clubs and Groups > Aircraft Builder Groups (http://www.aeroclub.com.au/queryao.php?id=710&expand=3371)

SAAA - Sports Aircraft Association of Australia - Chapter 21 (http://www.saaa.com/chapter/twentyone/index.htm)

[notaplanegeek]

Experimental VFR

I thought that's what I was doing up North

I thought that's what I was doing in G.A :ok:

[Deaf]

Advice for especially altimeter is get TSO stuff, Yellow tag (ie fixed and calibrated) ex US is less than than non TSO and will last longer and be fixable.

In my case, non TSO altimeter packed up after ~200 hrs so old altimeter (smiths probably pre TSO) cost a slab, maintenance (ie cleaning to deal with stuck setting) and VFR calibration cost $160. Didn't fit as knob in wrong place (not the first time I've had that problem !) didn't want to hack the panel so swapped with an Auster guy for a United with 3 month old calibration certificate

Talking to the instrument guys at MB they were told by CASA not to calibrate the (insert well known non TSO brand) altimeters.

Edited to add - Radios are a nightmare get an Icom VHF panel job not one of the things that fit in a 3 1/8 hole.

[Jabawocky]

Deaf..........sort of agree, the chineese altimeters are CR@P to say the least.

An OHC altimeter is a better bet for not much more than say two or three chineese altimeters, that being said a Dynon D6/D10/D100 or skyview will blow away the TSO'd altimeters for accuracy and longevity every day. Before anyone gets all wound up.....its FACT.

...........so if you were building a Day VFR panel you would really be best with a simple D6. Has everything, and more, and costs less than the chineese quality 6 pack, and will meet the AD inst8's etc for years to come.

I have TSO gear and a D100 and D180....you can guess which is more accurate accross the range can't you....;)

[Super Cecil]

To me "Minimal" doesn't include "electronic".

[Sunfish]

Jaba, plans and data plate ordered this morning.

Thank you for your kind invitation, I'll be in touch as soon as I sort out some business loose ends.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I have TSO gear and a D100 and D180....you can guess which is more accurate accross the range can't you....;)

How did you validate that Jaba?

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

When the RAD 43/47 and AD INST 9 tests with the Avionics LAME, who had the very latest boxes of freshly calibrated certified gear. :ok:

You don't think for a minute I make this stuff up now do you?

The TSO'd altimeter was pretty good, and well within IFR requirements all the way to 20K' but the D100/180 was dead on.

I have been to the factory and seen how they calibrate them, its hardly surprising. :)

[Jack Ranga]

What'd you buy Sunny?

And watch Jaba, he's a covert Dynon sales rep (although he doesn't take a commission, he re-invests in beer and red wine for fellow aviators :ok:)
:E:E

[Jabawocky]

yeah...........and I see you have decided to join the dark side........after almost fatal doses of red wine to young Jaba :eek:

Served me well this week in some serious IMC and darkness.

[Sunfish]

Definitely Dynon and with a backup battery . Maybe Skyview. ASI, Altimeter, compass and Microair or whatever VHF and transponder. Probably a x96 Garmin as well, and I will probably have an Ipad with moving map by then. I always have a hand held vhf as well. Not sure about a dedicated EPIRB as I have a plb.

Only apparent issue at this stage is that fuel gauges are "either or" - duplicate steam gauges would need duplicate transducers from what I've read. However Dynon manuals state its acceptable to have the unit booted up and engine start, meaning it would be on a separate CB and wouldn't be connected to the avionics bus.

I need to do some failure mode effect analysis.

Glass of red, mmmmm

[Super Cecil]

Of what you say Sunny, none of it is minimum :8
Maybe you should change the thread title to
"How much can I fit in my dash?" :}

[Sunfish]

Cecil, I don't want to end up with a monstrous panel, unlike some I've seen. I just like the idea of being able to take off and fly home after the failure of a Dynon instrument.

[Jack Ranga]

So what did you buy Sunfish?

[Sunfish]

CH 750.. Sticking my big toe in the water half an inch at a time. Bought the plans. The kit purchase comes after that.

Jack, please check your PM's for longer message.

[Super Cecil]

Cecil, I don't want to end up with a monstrous panel, unlike some I've seen. I just like the idea of being able to take off and fly home after the failure of a Dynon instrument.

Easy, look out the window.
If the aircraft is making lots of noise and the controls are firmer, your going too fast.
If the aircraft is very quiet and the controls are sloppy then your going too slow.
If you can't read the road signs, your flying too high.
Bit of tongue in cheek but get the idea?

[Super Cecil]

Had a bit of a look at the specs Sunny, 118 VNE? They aren't game enough to put a cruise speed on the site, it was just a quick flick through but I couldn't find one. I'd be guessing at maybe 75 knots with an 0-200?
As with most homebuilt's it always takes longer to build than you think and the costs are a lot more that's quoted. For that sort of $ outlay there are quite a few GA machines available.
Anything from 172's to old bomb Tri Pacers, lightly loaded and well flown you would be surprised where they will go. Not as short a landing spot as a CH750 but how often are you going to land in under 300 metres? A big plus would be a thirty or forty percent faster cruise speed. It is good flying low and slow but with the GA types I mention you can do that then throttle up and have a decent cross country speed for those longer trips. If you do find a cruise speed for the CH 750 you have to allow for the "Yank" (RV's actually seem pretty close to what's quoted, not many others) factor of about 1.3, divide their quoted cruise speeds by the "Yank" factor.
Maintenance is usually quoted better for home building than GA, it is an issue but I know people who make a once a year trip to a workshop and have a holiday working on their machine for a couple of days. Working under supervision can cost a lot less than you think. Another plus is your flying straight away instead of 3/5 years after you get a box full of bits to start on.
No doubt you've gone through all this stuff before deciding, building can bring it's own pleasures.
Don't worry about me Sunny just thinking aloud, carry on.

[VH-XXX]

From the CH750's that I've seen they are lucky to do 65-70 knots.

I would have been thinking hard about an RV12, plus with it's folding wings it can go home on a trailer next to your yacht in the driveway and you will look like the active sports guy from number 12 or whatever.

[Jabawocky]

I would consider the Savannah instead, more parts and local support.

"Ultralights" on here has one....most of his video's he posts come from various locations around his airframe:ok:

They are really an 85 knot MAX aeroplane, awesome STOL performance but not speedy. Chuckles calls them perfectly good Point A to Point A aeroplanes, mind you if you enjoy the ride, and you want to enjoy it for longer they can be used over a great distance if you install the second set of tanks.

he5-LPpfZn8

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Definitely Dynon and with a backup battery . Maybe Skyview. ASI, Altimeter, compass and Microair or whatever VHF and transponder. Probably a x96 Garmin as well, and I will probably have an Ipad with moving map by then. I always have a hand held vhf as well. Not sure about a dedicated EPIRB as I have a plb.

What was the title of this thread again? :E

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

Sunfish

Are you wanting to build this thing for IFR? :confused:

[Andy_RR]

Anyone looking at an LSA class aircraft should take a close look at the Pipistrel Virus SW. Dumb name but an extremely impressive data sheet! I'm sure it's not cheap though...

[VH-XXX]

The Pipistrel SW - RAA rego, 147 knots on 100hp, verified by NASA.

As fun as the instrument conversation is, why not start the thread again in 3.5 years when you are ready to build your panel!

[Sunfish]

Cecil, if I bought a 172 I do get the cruise speed, however if I lose my medical I can't fly it and I can't maintain it either.

I can still do Melbourne to Broken Hill in a day (still air + stop at Yswh) which is about my style of flying anyway.

The STOL thing is important to me because the plan is to keep it at a country property.

God willing, I'll put in 30+ hours a week and have it flying in less than a year.

While I will enjoy building it, the purpose is to use it for both fun and transport where possible

For example, Mansfield, where I once had a country property, is Three hours by road from Melbourne, and the Sunday afternoon drive back to the big smoke kills a lot of the enjoyment. By C172, Walsh's strip at Mansfield is 45 minutes from YMMB.

The Dynon is going in because with the addition of Two servos you have an autopilot, and once you have had an autopilot you won't want to fly (Tour) without it.

Well, that's my reasoning anyway, fire away...

[VH-XXX]

A mate just finished his RV12 full dynon glass. Third flight, flat battery, all instruments lost, no backup battery. Managed ok but a little uncomfortable without them.

[Super Cecil]

Do any instructors give clues as to flying without any instruments these days?
How many pilots WOULD be comfortable flying without instruments?

[Sunfish]

Beautiful high performance aircraft.

VH -XXX Pipistrel Short wing A$160,000 equipped and ready to fly or about 113,000 as a kit.

Having looked at the website of one builder, I think its a complicated kit and it also involves epoxy which I do not want to risk using again since epoxy allergy can catch up with you, and I'm already overdue for that from boat work.

I also do not feel happy about modifying Mr. Rotax's engine to make it fit.

To put it another way, I think there is too much to go wrong. I'm also not convinced about longevity and I note that Zenith CH701 are extremely rugged.

[VH-XXX]

A mate just finished his RV12 - 912 100HP full Dynon kit. $75k complete. 1000 hours build time. He's getting 115 knots at 5,100 RPM and 125 knots at 5,300rpm and max RPM with his set-up is 5,600. From memory VNE is 135knots. He has done 12.5 hours in the last week and he is absolutely LOVING the aircraft. His other two aircraft have just been mothballed and are unlikely to be flown by him again as he is so happy with this one.

[4by2withears]

Don't be silly Cecil. You can't teach that which is impossible. Remember the old films where the hero would be heaving back on the stick with both hands as the noise built to a scream and it all ended in an explosion. Once you lose any of your basic instruments it is all over. If by chance you survive you can write a breathless article for the CASA crash comic telling how you were late down wind at Bankstown in your little chugga lug on a pleasant afternoon when to your alarm your dynon went dingle. No ASI, no angle of attack meter. Stuck in that fuzzy 80kt range between stall and VNE with no idea which end you are at. What do you do? Declare an emergency. Perhaps they will clear you across to Kingsford Smith for the longer runway. But no, it gets worse. Your auto piot has decoupled from your Garmin. You will never find the place. Only one way left to save the day. Deploy that rocket fired parachute that you were smart enough to install.
Seriously though, I thought this thread was about minimum panels. While the aircraft is being flown along by the auto pilot and the pilot has his head inside scrolling through pages on the glass display finding what the CHT trend has been on No 4 cylinder for the last half hour, what is happening to the external scan. Perhaps a very large strobe would be a good bit of equipment. Help the rest of us to see you coming.

[Super Cecil]

Quiet day again 4 by 2? :8
That's why I carry spare batteries so if the main power supply to my electronic check list scroll goes I have a standby. In the 150 it's imortant to get all the 118 items in the downwind checks done while I'm still a close 6 mile downwind. :E
It's an inconvenience to have to hand fly anymore than the flare and landing. I find Dynon are falling behind their competitors by not offering the autoland function.

[Jabawocky]

Super Cecil
:D:}

Thats Gold!

[Sunfish]

The Autoland is in the next free software release for the Dynon Skyview.

It also has tetris and minefield to play on those long boring autopilot legs.