747 V1 Cut Advice

[RandomPerson8008]

Hi,

This is a bit embarrassing, but I am in the process of being trained on the 747-400 and find myself struggling a bit on V1 cuts.

Does anyone have any tips on how to handle the airplane, or more specifically the simulator, during this maneuver? It is my company's practice to always do the V1 cuts at 500 feet RVR with a 15 knot direct crosswind and 300,000 kilograms gross weight. It's always the upwind engine that will be failed in a "seizing" manner (not a gradual spooldown), so at least it's predictable.

I find that the trouble comes not in maintaining runway centerline immediately after the engine failure, but in that period of time immediately after rotation during which you can no longer see the runway, yet are still on the ground. Obviously an immediate transition to instruments is necessary upon rotation. However, I too often find myself in an uncoordinated condition and not tracking runway centerline properly after rotation. With that said, my V1 cuts are survivable, just not up to standard. I have attempted about 6 so far and only 2 have been done well.

Perhaps I need to rotate the airplane more quickly. The plane almost seems to need a "double flare" due to decreasing pitch response once 5-7 degrees is reached. This can lead to extended time in the aforementioned zone where the runway is not visible, yet the airplane is still on the ground.

I am transitioning from a small jet airplane with fuselage mounted engines. Needless to say, the difference in engine out handling is quite drastic.

I look forward to the responses.

[Junkflyer]

Hold it on the runway a touch longer so your rudder input is just right before you rotate.

[noip]

The general technique I used on the 400 - the points are a little overlapping, but you get the drift. All people can do is talk about how they handle the situation, and for you to read and try and get something from it.

Normal caveats apply.
Keep the aircraft straight with rudder initially, then lock your rudder as you reach rotate and use aileron to keep the wings level until you are safely flying away.
At "rotate" .. THINK ... pause, and then play the rotation rate to allow the airspeed increase to stop at V2 - typical attitude for reduced thrust would be about 13 deg from memory. We were always instructed on specific rotation rates, however that is not much good if you get to the attitude with the wrong speed.
Once you are safely flying away with the gear retracted, correct rudder to allow level yoke with wings level. Think of it as "push rudder to lift the low side of the yoke".
TRIM Rudder
Engage AutopilotThree issues:
Is more thrust available?
Rotating mechanically to the nominated attitude will have you airborne below V2 (been there, done that)
Remember to raise the gear (embarrassing if you don't)Hope some of this helps.


N

PS .. yes, as you approach 10 deg, the pitch response becomes less - an increase in backpressure is required, BUT the speed is the thing. You need V2.

[wiggy]

Keep the aircraft straight with rudder initially, then lock your rudder

:ok: :ok:


noip's absolutely right.

Push required rudder in, then lock it.

Pitch when/as required. Do not rush the rotation, you'll need a slightly firmer pull at top end of the rotation but if you nail the engine out target pitch attitude using the right rotation rate you'll find V2 will take care of itself.

When clear of the ground use the yoke to control heading.

Obvious point: Make sure you've got the raw heading as well as the pitch in your scan by frequently scanning down to the PFD compass arc... the Flight Director can be very misleading at this stage.

Don't rush to "unlock" the rudders when airborne, if your inputs are roughly right she'll fly OK, so don't correct any crossed controls until the gear is selected up.

[heavydane]

The above is good advise.

More rudder is a good ting!
Do not rush the rotation, spend the extra time on the runway to ensure directional control.
Do not rotate above 10 deg. before You are well of the ground(tail strike)
Do not chase the speed, V2+10 is good too.


Regards
Heavydane

[sodapop]

Some, hopefully, useful tips;

Apply nose down pressure if you start drifting away from centerline to give yourself better nosewheel response

Rotate slightly slower than normal and lock the rudder with the heel of your foot

Rotate to 11 degrees which you can recognize by placing the square aircraft symbol directly over the 10-degree line on the ADI (call it "Top Hat"). Check speed at V2.

"Gear Up", center the yoke using aileron and then squeeze a little rudder.

Final rudder adjustment as required at 400' (THR REF VNAV SPEED)

Have fun.

Soda

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Perhaps I need to rotate the airplane more quickly.


The rotation rate should be less than the normal four-engine rate which will then allow the airspeed to increase towards V2. Do remember, however, that when you have "positive climb" and you then select the gear UP there will be a temporary increase in drag as the gear-doors open. This will require a small adjustment in pitch so as not to allow the airspeed to reduce; with practice, you'll anticipate these small variations in pitch as you become more accustomed to the aeroplane.

If you're operating with reduced thrust, it shouldn't be neccessary to increase the thrust towards maximum... unless, of course, it's all going wrong!


Hold it on the runway a touch longer so your rudder input is just right before you rotate.


When operating at the higher end of the weight schedule this might not be an option (high ambient temperature & pressure altitude/limiting runway)... is there enough tarmac/concrete in front of you?

Chin, chin

TCF

[an3_bolt]

500' vis - 150m low vis.....seen more than a few guys rotate and roll over on that one!!

I'm no expert - some around here have been doing this one for over 20 years - but a little if it helps.

Track what you can see of the runway centreline and lock it in........do not cycle the rudder. The problem of not being able to see towards the end of runway can lead to some viscous cycling - muscle memory and lock it. A good PNF will assist you in the low vis with current tracking or deviation etc or even the LLZ up can help....

I find a "little" forward pressure on the elevator helps with the rudder control, especially during stronger crosswinds. Dont forget a little aileron to keep wings level.

When rotate - rotate on the PFD and hold the rudder - do not release the pressure. Hold it. Aileron to hold wings level.

PFD pitch bars are at 2.5 degree intervals.....I'm a bit of a monkey so I use the Gorilla rotate ...... I say to myself as I rotate ..."1 banana (2.5 degrees), 2 bananas (5 degrees), 3 bananas (7.5 degrees)....4 %^$bananas(10degrees with extra backpressure)...but most importantly the correct rate will have you at V2 flying away with the gear down.

Wings level with aileron - rudder locked.

Retracting gear - if you hold attitude current attitude to maintain V2 - when you select gear up - the gear doors open, extra drag and below V2 you go on the IAS....then the inevitable fight to get speed under control. Plan ahead. As you select gear up, nose down 1/2 degree and as you reach towards the end of the gear retraction cycle - raise the nose 1.5 degrees to maintain V2.

As Noip says - lift the downside of the aileron control wheel with rudder OR alternatively "squeeze" the skid indictor on the PFD back to the neutral position.

When under control - bring the track box on the ND into the scan or the track pointer on the bottom of the PFD and continue on your merry way cursing
a - the overhaul facility for a &^&($#& crap engine
b - cost cutting
c - bad coffee
etc etc :ok:

Smile and wave boys - nothing to see here - move along!

Really nasty is an engine surging on a 767 during rotate......:eek:

[B4MJ]

A little more forward pressure on the yoke should solve your coordination problem on liftoff. There is precious little excess friction on the nose wheel to start with when the power is balanced and the sudden seizure of an outboard overtaxes the nose wheels ability to resist the sudden turning moment. Pushing firmly puts more weight on the nose gear and helps to nail the nose straight. Don't think about returning to centerline, just parallel it. If you're having an exceptionally good day, think about rolling a little extra aileron opposite your hard leg just as the nose gets light. This will counteract the loss of nose wheel friction and you'll lift off with almost level wings. But don't even think about this little "extra" until you've got the rotation down pat.

Don't rotate any faster. Your Boeing manual calls for approximately 2 1/2 degrees per second rotation starting at Vr to 15 degrees pitch up with all engines and approximately 2 degrees/sec rotation to 12-13 degrees with an engine out. You may have trouble determining what 2 degrees/sec is but you do know how to count. So, if you count to six while you're rotating, and the nose ends up at 12 degrees pitch up, then you've managed the 2 degree/sec rotation. Same thing applies if all engines are working. 15 degrees pitch up attitude divided by six equals 2 1/2 degrees/sec rotation which is exactly what the manual recommends.

6 seconds is the approximate rotation time for ALL takeoffs whether there is an engine failure or not. So, the book procedure amounts to a smooth, continuous rotation that takes about 6 seconds duration starting at Vr with or without an engine failure. 15 degrees pitch/all engines, 12 degrees/3 engines. But the same 6 seconds to reach that pitch.

After the six seconds and you're airborne, now it's time to return to the Flight Director pitch bar that you so carefully ignored or "looked through" during your rotation and it should be spot on. If not, then small corrections should be all that's needed to make it spot on.

The reason to "look through" the pitch bar is that it's sluggish and will only be at about 10 degrees shortly after lift off (It sits at 8 degrees on the ground and takes longer to get up to 15 degrees than your 6 second rotation does). If you make the mistake of stopping your rotation when the nose first reaches the pitch bar then the airplane will over accelerate and then the FD will command too high a pitch to get you back on speed. Avoid all that "chasing the pitch bar" by ignoring the pitch bar until you've REACHED your desired pitch attitude.

[BOAC]

RP8 - get a training Captain to explain to you why the pitch rate slows during rotation - it is pretty 'normal' with low mounted tailplanes - I guess your 'past' had 'T-tails'?

You have not specified the V1/VR gap (and I assume also you mean 500mRVR?). Like The Chitterne I think 'delaying' rotate is fraught with danger, not just runway remaining but obstacle clearance - think of where you are placed perf-wise if second engine goes due to debris damage? Will you make the screen height? I would run that idea past your trainers if I were you!

[763 jock]

If you are on a transition course, ask your instructor for a wet V1. Something like a 20 knot split between V1 and VR will give you plenty of time to practice controlling the swing on the runway. When VR is reached, a slightly slower rotation rate is required.

You can then increase the V1 as your technique improves. I've used this method when training pilots who are having trouble. Works a treat.

[catpinsan]

As the airplane accelerates the rudder effectiveness increases. Assuming you have the technique mastered while rolling for take off (visual ref and the nose moving away from RW HDG), here's what you do during the transition to airborne:

Either,

you can 'lock' the rudder as described in many of the posts - in this case you will have to give quick, positive (mind me, not violent) aileron input as you get airborne, to counter the increased rudder effectiveness and keep wings level i.e. the wing will tend to go down and the airplane bank in the same direction as the rudder was given.. After getting airborne and having the situation under control to your satifaction you will have to settle down with enough rudder (and finally trim it correctly) to keep the control wheel centred. You will find that the airplane may fly with a minimal/slight bank into the live engine. Subsequently the usual rudder/trim changes will be required depending largely on the configuration and speed/thrust etc.

or,

you can ease off ever so slightly on the rudder as you get positively airborne - how much? This, you would have to play by what your instruments tell you.
A KEY INDICATOR IS THE SLIP/SKID INDICATOR (below the sky pionter), equivalent to the 'ball' of yore. Airbus called it a trapezoid, last I flew one. If this is not close to centred it will require a lot of effort to fly wings level and you will not find a steady state. Boeing recommends that it be slightly off centre towards the live engine and this works like a charm. Whichever side the slip/skid indicator is displaced, that's the side that needs more rudder.

Remember you will be transitioning from a highly 'cross-controlled' situation on the ground to one less so in the air. Whereas the airplane cannot bank significantly with wheels on ground, ther's nothing to restrict it once in the air. With an engine out cross control is the natural state, but it can be minimised by having the correct amount of rudder (and trimmed out).

In fact it can be likened to lifting off in a cross-wind. As an aside - On the 744 i have found some sort of change of rudder control speed regime around 120KIAS. At this point, in a x-wind take off the airplane instead of weathercocking into the wind tends to have the nose go away from the wind with the steady rudder input which was being used till this point.

A good scan (include slip/skid, and bank pointer and target pitch attitude) and quick authoritative inputs to aileron and rudder are the key. As you get airborne keep wings level, get the slip/skid 'centred' if it isn't and get the nose upto around 11 to 12 degrees. and once steady and stabilised, then follow the FD pitch commands. On a heavy 744, there are occasions we have to go by pitch attitude and disregard the FD as we may not perceive/fly the small changes that the FD might be making. I'm assuming this is due to the huge inertia involved. Always have the raw data under control.

[RandomPerson8008]

Thank you very much for all the replies. They have been very helpful. I look forward to employing these strategies when I get into the sim again.

I guess your 'past' had 'T-tails'?

You have not specified the V1/VR gap (and I assume also you mean 500mRVR?).

Yes sir, I'm coming from a T-tail small jet with fuselage mounted engines.

The V1/VR gap we are using varies but it is typically about 15 knots.

We are doing everything in 500 ft RVR (150m).

[BOAC]

We are doing everything in 500 ft RVR (150m). - gulp! I am quite surprised that no-one has actually discussed rotation technique in a 'traditional aircraft! It should be around lesson 1. I would have hoped that 15kts would be enough to peg the yaw?

[warmkiter]

Hi guys, here is a little tip how to stabilize the initial recovery on B744

What you need is the right amount of pitch and rudder. But that's nothing new.

Try this and you will be able to let the yoke go and have a trimmed A/C BEFORE you punch in the AP

You will need back trim. loosing an engine will cause your nose to drop. The B744 needs in sim 3 seconds of back trim. Use your thumb, count till 3 and you can nail those 10-12 pitch depending on weight. easy

now comes the tougher part. Rudder. If you loose Nr 1 or Nr 4 engine with full thrust, your amount of rudder required will be close to full travel. Don't kick it in, just apply smooth. With D-TO 60 it's about half travel. The rest is in-between. So you know before T/O pretty close how much you have to use that rudder. What the B744 doesn't like at all is alternating rudder-imputs.that makes the A/C go really shaky and all parameters go crazy. Apply your expected rudder-imput and check the coordination-indicator. After that correct only once!!!Nail your heels on the ground after that. Hope you hit the right one;-) little trim for neutralizing rudder-pressure, just relax and enjoy the ride. With some practise you will have it stabilized in 200' and just relax and wait until you got the 400' to start the procedure.

L

[RandomPerson8008]

The sim went much better today...we did one cut and it was within standards. Thanks again for the advice, it must've helped.

The only criticism I got was on my rotation.....I was roughly on the 2 degree per second target overall. However, when the instructor showed me a graph of pitch vs. time during the maneuver....I was at 7 degrees within 3 seconds, then I backed off down to 5 degrees, then pulled it back up to 10 degrees, then back down to 8, then finally up to 12 degrees.....so there was some oscillation going on rather than one smooth rotation. Tail clearance was roughly 1.8 meters at its lowest point.

The rotation is vastly different on this plane than my previous....my old bird required a "counter rotation" after the initial backforce to prevent over-rotating...the boeing is precisely the opposite and will take some getting used to.

Hopefully I can maintain this success, thanks again.

[B4MJ]

Good news! The smooth rotation will come with time. Old habits are hard to break and as BOAC says, rotation technique is usually covered in depth on period one. A few more V1 cuts should smooth it out perfectly.

Your Flight Crew Training Manual shows a Typical Rotation - One Engine Inoperative pitch attitude of 10.6 degrees at the 5 second point after Vr. At 10.6 degrees you have a minimum tail clearance of 86 cm. Tail Strike Pitch attitude is only 12.5 degrees.

So your instructor wants to make sure you don't over rotate another 1.4 degrees into the tail strike zone while you're still on the ground. And obviously you didn't as your minimum tail clearance was 1.8 meters.

You'll going to love the 747-400. Without getting into an A vs. B argument, it's simply one of the best flying jetliners ever built. (with all due respect to the L1011).

[crbnftprnt]

At least in our sim, what works is to immediately (but smoothly) put in full rudder. You will immediately be reducing that input a bit; but you will more quickly establish centerline tracking that way than if you didn't put enough in in the first place.

[b737NGyyc]

Great advice from all. Here is my input albeit from the baby of the Boeing family (B737NG). From the discussion above the techniques are very similar regardless of size.

This simple rhyme is what I would teach my trainees for V1 Cuts.

Squeeze (rudder to maintain centreline)
Freeze (rudder input)
12 degrees (target pitch attitude)

Squeeze the rudder in unison with the thrust decay, obviously a seizure or severe damage will require rudder to be inputted faster than the thrust decay from a flameout.

Freeze the rudder input required to track centre line and lock your leg by placing your heel on the floor. Do NOT change this input at rotation use aileron to keep the wings level.

Maintain the target pitch attitude and the airspeed will settle nicely in the V2 to V2+10 range and minor pitch changes will set the speed right at V2. Where I have seen more pilots get into trouble is over rotation and chasing V2 with aggressive pitch changes.

Some aileron is required at rotation to maintain wings level. Hold these inputs until a positive rate of climb is achieved and the gear is retracted then reduce the cross controlled condition smoothly by inputting rudder as required to level the yoke.

Good luck in the sim she can be an unforgiving mistress.

[sevenstrokeroll]

dare I say it? I think the secret is to trim the rudder while still on the ground...at least a bit of it.

how can someone ''muscle lock'' the rudder, when the rudder trim could just be moved to the approx position for outer engine out?V1, lose the engine, rudder to track centerline and move the rudder trim..., Vr, smoothly rotate on instruments, positive rate gear up. if you are moving the YOKE, your thumbs are pointing to the rudder pedal you should step on a bit more.



we all know the sim is the sim...the plane the plane

do you have the engine volume on?


(edit to clarify sequence of VEEE ONE call and then engine failure...)

[bubbers44]

Since an engine out is always a yaw problem never use the aileron to try to fix the problem. It always requires rudder only. Any aileron usage causes a cross control situation deteriorating climb performance. All takeoff performance charts are predicated on using rudder so if you use aileron you are negating all your takeoff performance data.

[SNS3Guppy]

dare I say it? I think the secret is to trim the rudder while still on the ground...at least a bit of it.

Come again?

Are you suggesting trimming before rotation during the takeoff, or guessing which engine might fail before leaving the gate?

Fly first. Trim later.

[main_dog]

lose the engine, rudder to track centerline and move the rudder trim...V1, Vr,
Also, I don't think the company would take too kindly to you losing the engine before V1 and still go flying :}

[sevenstrokeroll]

maindog

our company requires us to start the call V1 5 knots prior to V1. it is usually in this ''gray zone'' that th e sim instructor pulls the engine.

Certainly if you have a failure prior to V1 you reject...the closeness of all these things is impossible to write.

guppy. you lose the engine, you recognize it, you keep centerline with rudder and you start to trim while you are still on the ground/runway, accelerating to Vr

I'm not saying to trim prior to the start of the takeoff roll

I'm not saying to trim the rudder prior to losing an engine.

but this idea of muscle lock and holding the rudder entirely with muscle, instead of getting some trim in there will make the transition from tracking the centerline visually to instrument flying a bit easier.

[main_dog]

I've never heard of calling V1 before, er, V1? And certainly never heard of trimming an A/C during the takeoff roll; in my company that would earn me a quick visit to the training manager for what the Brits call "tea and biscuits" (without the tea and biscuits), but hey whatever works... :}

What my lot recommend is the technique others have put forward: as soon as you detect the swing, smoothly put your foot in, about halfway for a full derate with a high assumed temp (say D-TO 2 60˚) and most of the way for max thrust. Whatever it takes to stop the swing and roughly parallel the centreline.

If there is a big gap between V1 and Vr and you're feeling sharp, you can adjust the amount of rudder and try to gently regain centreline, but the important thing is to not "dance" on the rudder pedals (as you would with a tailwheel aircraft, for those of you who are ex-GA like me ;)). Squeeze in some rudder, STOP, observe the reaction, adjust with some more or less rudder, STOP, observe, etc.

Regardless, when you hear "Vr" or "rotate", lock your foot wherever it was (I find it useful to physically connect my heel with the cockpit floor and imagine it is now nailed there) and just keep the wings level with aileron, whilst slowly rotating at about 2˚ per second to an initial pitch target of ten degrees or just above. At this pitch attitude it only takes approx 5˚of bank to scrape the outboard engine (esp. on a RR), so it is critical to watch the sky-pointer like a hawk and keep the wings level regardless of crosswind or variations in thrust.

Whilst bubbers44 is correct in saying that rudder is the only answer for asymmetric thrust, the rotation phase is far too delicate (esp. on such a markedly swept-wing transport with such far-out underslung engines as the 747) to be playing around with all three axes simultaneously, at least for your average pilot (which most definitely includes me, Bob Hoover I ain't!). Hence the recommendation to "lock" the rudder and control roll with aileron until positively climbing.

Once you are safely away from the ground and the gear is selected up, you can safely "unlock" your rudder foot and concentrate on adjusting the rudder as required to centre the yoke as Boeing recommends.

Just my 2 eurocents worth.

MD

[sevenstrokeroll]

main dog

for many, many years we have started the V1 call 5 knots prior to V1 in order to complete the call by V1.

As far as trimming while on the ground, after the engine cut, before rotation, this was actually suggested to me by my sim instructor.

Again, we all know that the sim is not the plane, no matter how good you think it is.

IF the person who is having the problem really wants GOOD ADVICE...tell him to contact the people who maintain the simulator...we call them SIM TECHS here. They fly the sim better than any of our pilots...but its because they know the machine...not because they know how to fly!

[bubbers44]

My airline taught things in the sim I wouldn't do in the airplane. To me it was negative training to pass the sim check but not what I would do in a real airplane. One example is what would you do if you are approaching V1 and the wind causes a stagnation in acceleration at Reno with a 10 knot tailwind. Sim answer, abort. I have had it happen several times and knew I was past real V1 without the windshift so continued knowing I could add a notch of flaps if I was running out of runway. As long as nothing bad happens you continue to retirement. If you do it their way you run off the end of the runway in a high speed abort. You decide.

Remember the crew of the DC10 at ORD that followed company procedures after the engine fell off and legally crashed and killed all onboard following FAA and company procedures slowing to V2?

[CR2]

"adding a notch of flap"

Am I right in saying most US 747 operators use Flaps 10 as standard, whereas most Europeans use 20? (For t/o)?

My experience observing with a Euro based carrier (Loadmaster for 20+ years on various 74s) is 20, occasionally 10 at hot/high airports.

And talking of flaps, may I ask an opinion of something I have seen. Flaps forgotten, TOGA, Idiot Alarm, T/L's closed, brakes, flaps selected, TOGA again & go (without vacating rwy) . Empty 747F on a 7 hour flight on a long rwy.... To those that know me, no it wasn't them. N- reg company that no longer exists.

[sevenstrokeroll]

bubbers is right about sim training vs real world.

and I sure do remember the KORD DC10 incident /accident, biggest single plane loss of life in the USA aviation.

Reno and stagnation...boy oh boy you are in a hard place there. I've needed full power to maintain glideslope during approach! And the A hole ahead of me had the same thing and didn't report windshear. We did as soon as we were on the ground under control, and dimwit ahead says: YEAH, we had that too. Thanks pal!


Putting a bit of trim in as soon as you recognize the engine out isn't a bad idea...you might even want to learn the exact setting...we are talking sim here. When one MUSCLE LOCKS UP THERE LEG HOLDING rudder pressure, one will have a problem very soon.

remember of course, as you accelerate, less rudder will be needed.

and during engine out landing, we were encouraged to have NFP take out rudder trim as we reduced thrust in the flare.

U should always be trimming. U are in better touch with the plane than muscling it. Finese.

[bubbers44]

SSR, I was probably guilty of a late windshear report going into Portland. I was flying an MD80 and reports were of moderate turbulence on short final and almost a 30 knot crosswind on a wet runway. I added 20 knots to my approach speed and lost it about 50 ft so pushed up the power and got a great landing. Clearing the runway a United 727 was landing and saw a blast of smoke out of the engines as they tried to flare. They hit hard and bounced onto the nose gear and I thought they were going to leave the runway. One of our airline pilots ready for take off said United, I would check your wingtips. They replied we will. Sometimes you have to catch your breath to warn others.

I think you should always follow company procedures that make sense. As a PIC you should put your passengers and crew first.

[sevenstrokeroll]

that's a good story. believe me I understand that you have to take a second to regroup after a tough landing. And with reports like what you said, anyone would be on their toes.

My situation at Reno was a beautiful clear day...calm winds at the surface. Traffic ahead, a 737, had been off the runway for over 2 minutes...he had landed long and made the LAST turnoff on 16R at reno...the LAST turnoff!!!!

we made our pirep on the runway...ATC was doing both ground and tower on tower freq so the 737 heard us.


I would have called it a dry microburst now that I know more!

That UAL 727 ...that would have been hard to watch!

but I digress.

[Escape Path]

When one MUSCLE LOCKS UP THERE LEG HOLDING rudder pressure, one will have a problem very soon.

Yup, a massive pain in the leg after a 2-hour session! :}

Now that I've let it out of my system I'll continue to nurture myself from this thread.

By the way, how does one recognise when one has put too much rudder for the condition?

P.S.: Great thread! :ok:

[launchpad74]

fantastic advice everyone!! good luck with the training RandomPerson.
you are training on one of the true jets of all time . . Enjoy while others dream.
gentleman / ladies . . I will definately take up all your advice should i be lucky enough to fly this beautiful machine one day . . .:ok:

[By George]

Some common errors:

1) over compensation for yaw on the r/w

2) rotating before VR

3)transiting from 'visual' to PFD too early

4) failing to call 'gear-up'

5) pedalling the rudder pedals after lift-off and creating instability

6) Insufficient scan of 'slip/skid' indicator

7) Disconnecting A/T and reducing power prior to level off and consequently reducing NET CLB and prolonging acceleration.

I think everything else has been well covered by previous posters, however I don't like the advise of rudder trim on the r/w. Thats why God gave us feet. Squeeze rudder, rotate slowly, lock rudder and fly the slip and skid. The 'down' control horn always is an indicator of which foot to squeeze. Be gentle, she is big and fat but she still has feelings!

[SNS3Guppy]

I agree. Don't fly the airplane off the trim. Fly the airplane, then trim.

Taking time to trim while handling an engine-out on the runway is an unwise idea in the sim or in the real world. Concentrate on maintaining the centerline, pitch to put the pipper on the 10 degree line, and fly into V2. Your leg isn't going to fall off in the few minutes it takes to get airborne, get established, get turned, and start cleaning up. The trim is going to change considerably as one begins cleaning up and accelerating anyway. Don't complicate it and your takeoff by trimming rudder on the runway.

[763 jock]

I'd like to know exactly where Boeing recommend trimming the rudder whilst accelerating towards VR. Who comes up with this rubbish?:ugh:

[main_dog]

remember of course, as you accelerate, less rudder will be needed.


Er, not on the 747, where the rudders have rudder ratio changers installed, so roughly equal rudder input (for a given asymmetric yaw) at any airspeed!

MD

[sevenstrokeroll]

who said boeing said anything

boeing expects you to be a decent pilot.

trimming is part of being a decent pilot...I'm not saying to drop everything and look down at the trim

airplane yaws right, press left rudder, give some trim to the left and off you go

the really wonderful pilots, in tune with their plane, are trimming things out without even thinking

except airbus pilots I guess (pitch trim etc)

[Bellerophon]

763 jock

...trimming the rudder whilst accelerating towards VR. Who comes up with this rubbish?...

Apart from sevenstrokeroll and his sim instructor, I don't know, but you're correct - it's rubbish!

Best Regards

Bellerophon

[763 jock]

I'm not a "really wonderful pilot". However, Boeing instructors taught me how to fly the 767 in Seattle. No mention was ever made of applying rudder trim on the ground. I've never tried it or needed it, my leg muscles are quite capable of controlling the swing until I have time to apply rudder trim, even with full thrust.

[Private jet]

Randomperson8008, why dont you ask your trainer to demonstrate exactly how to do it i.e show you the procedure they want you to follow? They should be teaching you after all, then learn and perfect that. Also the "scenario" of (v low) 500ft/150m viz with a 15kt wind, when would you get that in reality? duststorm perhaps, thats all i can think of. Btw, are you an ex Hawker driver as you mentioned "checking" the rotation with a little push.

[misd-agin]

sevenstrokeseven - V1...engine failure... and you're saying to trim the rudder on while still on the ground??? :ugh::{:yuk::=:(


Random - everyone is saying the same thing - get the rudder right FIRST, then a steady rotation with the rudder locked/frozen/fixed. The rudder will almost always be slightly off, you can see that by your ailerons. Small, steady (never ABRUPT) rudder input will fix that. I think of 'squeezing' in more rudder vs. 'pushing more rudder'. Squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, until you have enough.

Keep in mind most people don't use enough rudder, especially at the time of the failure.

The WORST thing you can do is start cycling/changing rudder inputs. Yaw issues, advancing wing, especially from a swept wing, etc, will create control issues.

You need to make small, targeted corrections. It's a constant ballet to get it right. Scan, correct, freeze. Scan, correct, freeze. The smaller the error the smaller the correction.

[RandomPerson8008]

I've not had problems in the last half dozen or so V1 cuts I've performed. The advice on this thread has been very helpful. I think I was fixating too much on the sky pointer due to it being heavily emphasized on my previous briefings (don't strike a pod!). If you fly the crosswind corrections like they should be flown, the pod strike and tail strike shouldn't be a problem.

When I returned to the scan I had used in my previous aircraft, things started going very well.

My previous aircraft was the Embraer 145.

Now if I can just get my other procedural issues ironed out, perhaps I will earn my type-rating on Sunday!

[Pitch Up Authority]

It is obvious but important to have a correct seating position to start with.

It's important to set the Pitch trim as shown by the FMC. Even a touch more nose up if you are using the assumed temp technique.

Keep an eye on the trend vector and use your V/S as the first indication of speed change.

Finally do not get distracted by any calls. The only one you want to focus on in the initial stage is the positive rate and gear up.

When in cross-wind it's normal to have a bit of crosscontrol. Do not rush to remove it.

[an3_bolt]

How did Sunday go?

Cheers

[bubbers44]

Don't ever use the sky pointer technique. After dozens and dozens of sucessful takeoffs with a V1 cut my check airman said just step on the sky pointer so I did and crashed. I went to my old way of just stepping on the rudder and using minimum aileron to keep us climbing properly. Mechanical flying isn't my idea of flying. What happens if you lose your sky pointer and that is the only way you can fix an engine failure. I know it won't work in a Lear 23. The new kids might find this helpful if all their automation keeps working. Us old guys don't care if the automation fails because we don't need it.

[bubbers44]

RP, sometimes you have to go to your own flight background and what works for you. Blindly following a check airmans advice and changing what you have always done is not good. Do it your way, not his way. They aren't any smarter than us, remember?.

[RandomPerson8008]

The rating ride went well. As always, there were some things I could've done better, but as long as I earn a passing grade, I'm satisified.

The only critique I received on the V1 cut is that I didn't rotate fast enough. The main gear skipped on the runway a little bit, but directional control was not a problem and I was within 10 knots of target speed during the initial climb (V2+10).

Thanks again to everyone for the advice. I believe we can call this thread a success because my Pilot Certificate now says B-747-4.

[By George]

Welcome to the Queen of the Skies.

[an3_bolt]

Congratulations on your check.:ok:

I am sure you will enjoy the beast.
Now - just if they made it with small fuel tanks......:eek: