GPS Vulnerable

[Joker 10]

http://www.sail-world.com/photos_2011/std_andrew_dempster1.jpg 'Andrew Dempster - University of New South Wales' Researchers have warned that GPS systems are becoming increasingly vulnerable to accidental interference or deliberate jamming, raising concerns about reliability and security.

Professor Andrew Dempster, of Australia's University of New South Wales School of Surveying and Spatial Information Systems, said GPS is relied upon for an ever-increasing number of applications including navigation, vehicle and freight tracking, and location-based smart phone services.

However low-powered GPS signals are easily drowned out by other sources which are increasing in number, said Professor Dempster, among them cheaply obtained jamming units that can be used by criminals to knock out tracking systems.

'GPS signals are weak and can easily be out punched by poorly controlled signals from television towers, devices such as laptops and MP3 players, or even mobile satellite services,' he said.

Professor Dempster spoke at a workshop on GPS vulnerability organized in Canberra by UNSW’s Australian Center for Space Engineering Research (ACSER). The workshop addressed unintended and intentional disruption threats, including the risks of GPS jamming and 'spoofing' – where a false GPS signal is created – being used in terrorist activity.

'This is not only a significant hazard for military, industrial and civilian transport and communication systems, but criminals have worked out that they can jam GPS,' he said.

Professor Dempster said his research team had detected interference in GPS signals caused by a television tower in Sydney’s northern suburbs. While they had not detected any criminal jamming activity, Professor Dempster said overseas criminals are already using jammers.

The UNSW team are working with the University of Adelaide and private company GPSat Systems on an Australian Research Council-funded project to develop jammer-detection technology.

'Our research will produce a system that can accurately geolocate the position of a jamming signal, and hopefully track a moving vehicle carrying a jammer,' Professor Dempster said.

'Australia has tough laws that ban jamming, but the risks to GPS keep growing and there’s a need not only for new solutions but for more awareness and greater preparedness, particularly by industry when committing to using GPS when designing complex systems.'

[OZBUSDRIVER]

oh dear....another engineer who doesn't understand fuzzy logic...how do you jam a signal that operates at 100 times lower than background radiation?

A hint....the answer is neither yes nor no:}

[Capt Fathom]

Well you may like to read this! (http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/gpscellphone-jammers-also-snarl-aviation-navigation-systems-28274/)

It's not actually cars using the jammers.

It's trucks and couriers.
They are jamming the signals from their own built-in GPS's so the boss can't track them!

[bankrunner]

OZBUSDRIVER, the answer is, "with ease."

Relatively weak carriers on 1575.42MHz 1227.60MHz will be more than enough to overload the front end of a GPS receiver and essentially render it deaf.

As someone else just pointed out, couriers and taxi drivers do it all the time, and jammers are readily available, albeit illegally, on the web for under $50.

Spoofing is more challenging, but even that's doable, hence why the military use the encrypted (and therefore, authenticated) P(Y)-code and M-code signals for anything important.

[Quokka]

Can happen to RADAR just as easily as GPS.

One of the TV towers in Perth unintentionally jammed the Kalamunda RADAR.

It took quite some time to find the source of the jamming.

[Joker 10]

Wonder where Binghi is ? this extract from an academic treatise from a qualified Professor of Electrical Engineering would seem to vindicate all he was saying and the super qualified busdriver and others equally qualified howled him down.

Karma, the wheel turns, I will bet a Professor suitably qualified against the masses any given day.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I will bet a Professor suitably qualified against the masses any given day

Yup, never argue with a Professor, I say! :E

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

Joker

You are flying along with a jammer planted in your back seat by a naughty person your GPS is jammed, and maybe the the guy formatting off your left wing, but he is going to have a hard time jamming me in SEQ or FTDK in FNQ from where you are ;).

Now considering a really high powered jammer could muck up a small area, that would be way less trouble than than the radar outage already mentioned. As for navigation, well you are a far smarter man than that, you do not need me to explain the rest.

As any professor will tell you facts maybe facts but in isolation they are almost meaningless. Applied to the real world, that is where you test the hypothesis and facts to see how they really affect you and others.

When you can shut down the whole of Australia's GPS system from one $50 device I will be impressed and Forkie will be in a world of hurt!

By the way with the numbers of dodgy cabie's around Mascot, surely there would be a stream of ATSB reports from the airlines about FDE failures by now. :ugh:

[Frank Arouet]

Jetstar use P-RNAV as a primary source for IFR reference, (CASA 71/11 Airbus 330-202 exemption), such local interference could be catastrophic?

No?

[Jabawocky]

Maybe Frank....Maybe, but they would need to be sitting in the aircraft concerned, that would make them a suicide jammer.

I am sure the crew are quite well trained in how to conduct a missed approach when the loss of a navaid happens?

No?

And what stops same said suicide jammer from inflicting the same kind of trouble with a VHF device on say.....a ILS frequency just at the minima on a murky day? No this could be done from a safe distance if said suicide jammer was a little more chicken.

Whole thread is not even rating on the storm in a teacup scale.

[bankrunner]

Keep in mind the article mentioned in the original post was talking about a lot more than aviation, which in the grand scheme of things is just one very, very small user of GPS.

GPS craps out? No problems. I've got VOR, ILS, NDB, or if the weather's nice I've also got a bag full of charts, a compass and two eyeballs.

[Flying Binghi]

Wonder where Binghi is ? this extract from an academic treatise from a qualified Professor of Electrical Engineering would seem to vindicate all he was saying and the super qualified busdriver and others equally qualified howled him down.




Joker 10, you obviously never read what i wrote as i never thought much of jamming as being a problem.

A brief recap of my concerns; GPS is a gift to terrorists as a targeting system. In one possible scenario terrorists will use very cheap GPS guided UAV bomb's to hit targets in Oz.

Also using GPS as a targeting system is a simple way to 'get at' an increasingly GPS reliant Australia. i.e, how do you stop terrorists using GPS as a targeting system, you turn it off or restrict its use - Terrorist mission accomplished.






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[kalavo]

What terrorist mission?

You really think terrorists are going to spend all that time building a GPS guided UAV with enough explosives to do damage? Just because GPS is now cheap and widely available? Spending millions of dollars on weapons with all the latest gadgets to accurately hit targets is something the military do. If you're a terrorist, use the KISS principle - Keep It Simple Stupid - especially if you want it to be effective.

We live in a world where everyone over the age of 16 (or maybe it's 18 in Victoria, either way), is able to drive a vehicle with the stored chemical energy equivalent to two sticks of dynamite, while the sales of nitrate-based fertilizer is strictly controlled. So if I wanted to attack a target, which path would I go down? $1.30/litre and crash petrol filled cars in to my target! The fact that nobody is crashing petrol filled cars in to targets probably means there isn't anyone out there who wants to do it?

The fact that we're misdirecting millions of dollars on "security" which really does nothing but make people "feel" safe is just plain dumb. I mean seriously, take out every laptop and scan it separately to see if the battery has been replaced with cemtex, but leave the laptop power supply which could just as easily be stuffed with cemtex in the bag with all your other crap? Don't bother scanning cd players, mobile phones, ipods, separately, even though they're just as capable of being stuffed full of Cemtex? Ask people to turn their laptop on to prove it if there's any doubt. You gotta be joking right? Lets try blowing something up here in a terminal filled with 10,000 people as opposed to letting it through with only 100 on an Ejet out over the Great Australian F*** All)?

The whole idea is about as bright as no electronic devices during take off or landing as it may interfere with aircraft navigation devices? You expect me to believe that ****? My iPod is going to bring down a 737 if I listen to music on takeoff? Doubt it. Is it really that hard to tell people the truth? "Personal Entertainment Devices may distract you from listening to our instructions in an emergency should we need to evacuate the aircraft, the chances of an evacuation are significantly higher near the ground than at 37,000' so we ask you to turn that **** off until we're in the cruise"

The terrorists won along time ago, they don't have to do anything now. Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt has taken over and people are too stupid to realise and see the big picture.

[Super Cecil]

Withdrawn post because of Jokers offense, you have red hair Joker?

[Flying Binghi]

You really think terrorists are going to spend all that time building a GPS guided UAV with enough explosives to do damage? Just because GPS is now cheap and widely available? Spending millions of dollars on weapons with all the latest gadgets to accurately hit targets is something the military do. If you're a terrorist, use the KISS principle - Keep It Simple Stupid - especially if you want it to be effective.



kalavo, a GPS guided mini UAV bomb with a 500 plus mile range and able to hit a target within eight odd metres would probably cost less then a couple of thousand dollars. The terrorists have already been testing UAV's.




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[4Greens]

The biggest danger to GPS is the possibiliy of it being downgraded by the US military. A stand off over Taiwan is a likely scenario,. The sooner another GPS provider is available the better.

[LeadSled]

Folks,

Probably a bigger threat to all GPS use is the advance of Gen4 telephone systems.

There is a huge controversy going on in the US right now about wireless phone operators being licensed to use spectrum very close to the GPS frequency band.

Testing of GPS receivers close to the transmission towers has shown disastrous results, despite "assurances" by the phone equipment manufacturers.

We will have exactly the same problem here, with the Dept. of Communications planning to auction off the same spectrum.

Tootle pip!!

[bankrunner]

LeadSled, what's even worse is that the USA has form for this sort of thing.

Back around 2000, the FCC granted 800MHz licenses to mobile phone operator Nextel (who is only by technicality licensed as a trunked radio network). Nextel's Motorola iDEN network made nearby safety-critial emergency services trunked radio systems unusable.

The solution was for Nextel to pay to move EVERY public safety 800MHz user to another part of the band away from the interference, upgrade the firmware on ALL their 800MHz radios for the new bandplan, and replace ALL of their older radios that couldn't be rebanded, a US $2.5bn exercise.

Imagine the cost of doing something like this for GPS?

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm, seems all the reading i do on terrorist UAV developments has GPS mentioned..:hmm:

"...Achieving successful autonomous flight of a UAV is a daunting task for any terrorist group, even were they to have all the necessary technical skills.

...Clearly, access to flight management systems not subject to export-control restrictions would save substantial development time and reduce the risk of catastrophic failure and detection.

...cost in the neighborhood of $5,000, while providing complete autonomous operation, a GPS-aided autopilot...

Still, the complexity and risks involved in achieving successful autonomous flight make the terrorist acquisition of a UAV a low-probability, but high-consequence threat, at present. But this assessment could change due to the rapid pace of technological change in all the technologies relevant to unmanned flight...

...it is impossible to conceive of an affordable and highly effective nationwide defense against these low-flying threats..." ...i suppose they could turn off the civvy GPS..:hmm:


NTI: Issue Brief: Unmanned Air Vehicles as Terror Weapons: Real or Imagined? (http://www.nti.org/e_research/e3_68a.html)







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[FlightPathOBN]

Forget that, the FCC just sold the freq next to GPS for cell phones....

http://operationsbasednavigation.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/saveourGPS.jpg

[Andy_RR]

Less than $500 is all you need to build a fully autonomous flying vehicle. It helps if you can write a spot of bug-free C code though and testing it could be slightly cumbersome. There's a few HIL solutions for the initial de-bug though but that will only get you so far.

Really though, if it isn't this, it's another method and making something illegal isn't going to stop it - the data to build thsi stuff is already out there. Heck, you can write some code for your Android telephone to control your UAV thesedays and have it ring through a five-mile call to the destination...

I hope Australia isn't stupid enough to tie this growth industry all up in useless red tape.

[Sunfish]

You will find that the defence forces have "countermeasures" against someone trying to use GPS guidance in a weapon.

[baswell]

Also using GPS as a targeting system is a simple way to 'get at' an increasingly GPS reliant Australia. i.e, how do you stop terrorists using GPS as a targeting system, you turn it off or restrict its use - Terrorist mission accomplished.
Very true, GPS will go the way of the mobile phone soon. Remember when we used to have mobile phones and terrorists started using then to detonate bombs, killing hundreds on crowded trains? Then came suicide bombers that didn't have a trigger button themselves anymore; their "mate" blew them up from a distance. Not to mention all the soldiers that have died in GSM-triggered roadside bombs...

Yes, they were the good days when we were allowed to have mobile phones, but when the terrorists started using them, the government had no choice but to take them all away from us.

I miss my mobile phone...

[Flying Binghi]

via Andy_RR: Less than $500 is all you need to build a fully autonomous flying vehicle. It helps if you can write a spot of bug-free C code though and testing it could be slightly cumbersome. There's a few HIL solutions for the initial de-bug though but that will only get you so far.

Really though, if it isn't this, it's another method and making something illegal isn't going to stop it - the data to build this stuff is already out there. Heck, you can write some code for your Android telephone to control your UAV these days and have it ring through a five-mile call to the destination...

I hope Australia isn't stupid enough to tie this growth industry all up in useless red tape.

Andy_RR, if the UAV dispatcher were based in Oz then he would probably only get one go with a UAV bomb. If the 'driver' were within radio range of the UAV it wouldn't even need GPS.

As i've posted in other threads an Oz based terror group would more then likely get rounded up before they launched anything.

...on the other hand though, an offshore launched GPS guided UAV bomb probably wouldn't be noticed until it made some noise. Then where did it come from?, who sent it?, when's the next one arriving..?





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[Flying Binghi]

You will find that the defence forces have "countermeasures" against someone trying to use GPS guidance in a weapon.

Perhaps there is something we dont know here. Sunfish, are ya suggesting that when i'm using my in car GPS navigator the military know where i am..:uhoh:






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[Flying Binghi]

Also using GPS as a targeting system is a simple way to 'get at' an increasingly GPS reliant Australia. i.e, how do you stop terrorists using GPS as a targeting system, you turn it off or restrict its use - Terrorist mission accomplished.

via baswell: Very true, GPS will go the way of the mobile phone soon. Remember when we used to have mobile phones and terrorists started using then to detonate bombs, killing hundreds on crowded trains? Then came suicide bombers that didn't have a trigger button themselves anymore; their "mate" blew them up from a distance. Not to mention all the soldiers that have died in GSM-triggered roadside bombs...

Yes, they were the good days when we were allowed to have mobile phones, but when the terrorists started using them, the government had no choice but to take them all away from us.

I miss my mobile phone...

baswell, when you buy a mobile phone sim card is there any paper work to fill in ? ...things like I.D etc. ...why do you think yer have to do it ? Do you think if yer phone sim card were found at the scene of a bomb blast that nobody would know it were your card ? Repeatability options zero..:hmm:




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[baswell]

baswell, when you buy a mobile phone sim card is there any paper work to fill in ? ...things like I.D etc. ...why do you think yer have to do it ? Do you think if yer phone sim card were found at the scene of a bomb blast that nobody would know it were your card ? Repeatability options zero..
LOL, that's certainly working to stop terrorists!

Besides, no forms to fill out for pre-paid. Answer a few questions to a voice response system and done. Make up some BS; steal an identity, easy.

Can you enlighten me *how* this shutting down or restricting of GPS by the Australian government would work anyway?

Maybe they can convince the US to enable SA over our continent? 1970s encryption technology vs. 2011 teenage hackers. Good luck!

[FOCX]

Did someone mention Flying Binghi and science in the same sntence, nah, your dreaming!:eek:

[Flying Binghi]

Besides, no forms to fill out for pre-paid. Answer a few questions to a voice response system and done. Make up some BS; steal an identity, easy.



Hmmm, baswell, i've never got a pre-paid before. Although its nothing to do with GPS just fer interest i'll look into it.



Can you enlighten me *how* this shutting down or restricting of GPS by the Australian government would work anyway?



No.



Maybe they can convince the US to enable SA over our continent? 1970s encryption technology vs. 2011 teenage hackers. Good luck!

Oh, i think something will be worked out..:)





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[Flying Binghi]

Did someone mention Flying Binghi and science in the same sntence, nah, your dreaming!


Is this thread about science FOCX.. http://www.ozpolitic.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/brown/huh.gif






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[peuce]

F.B.

Your logic continues to be along the lines of ... we need to take cars off the road, as someone might crash .... we need to take cigarette lighters off asylum seekers, because they may burn down our property ....we need to destroy all guns, because someone might shoot someone.

All these " bad things" have come to pass to some extent, and we are aware of it. However, we, as a community, have put what preventative measures we can in place and then we have decided to live with the residual risk .... as a cost of doing life.

That's where GPS-Guided Buzz Bombs fit in also ... yes, we acknowledge they might happen, but taking all the various probabilities, likelihoods, preventions and consequences into consideration, we have decided to take that risk.

Let it rest. We know ... cars might crash.

[Flying Binghi]

via peuce: FB Your logic continues to be along the lines of... ...we need to take cigarette lighters off asylum seekers, because they may burn down our property...

............ http://www.ozpolitic.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/brown/huh.gif






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[Flying Binghi]

via peuce:
...All these " bad things" have come to pass to some extent, and we are aware of it. However, we, as a community, have put what preventative measures we can in place and then we have decided to live with the residual risk .... as a cost of doing life....



peuce, if we were only looking at Oz based terror possibilitys i would tend to agree with yer there. Just to remind you, i've been fairly vocal around here at times about the useless ASIC card. If there is an Oz based terror group that caint do their deed via one method, they will just keep looking until they find a way to achieve their ends - Reference the footy bombers who got caught before they could do their deed. Though, IMO that getting caught will only give a message out that will push the problem offshore.

IMO, what offshore launched GPS guided UAV terror weapons offer is a way for terrorists to strike Oz with a minimal chance of our security services being able to detect the devices before they arrive, and likely bugger all chance of working out when the next one (or a dozen) will arrive. There are more and more reports of terrorists developing UAV's so it is just a matter of time.



...That's where GPS-Guided Buzz Bombs fit in also ... yes, we acknowledge they might happen, but taking all the various probabilities, likelihoods, preventions and consequences into consideration, we have decided to take that risk...


peuce, have we decided to take that risk ?

peuce, what preventions do we have ?


"consequences" peuce, GPS guided UAV bombs are not like the footy bombers where the worst case scenario is they get to blow up some spectators though are caught soon after. They are devices launched well away from any mainland security services that will likely upset the plot before launch.

Once there is the first succes, they will just keep comming...








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[peuce]

At the risk of prolonging this issue, I guess I owe you an answer.

(a)
I was trying to be nice. Trying to be diplomatic.
I don't really think there is a risk ... from onshore, or offshore.

(b)
BUT ... if there is a risk, and if you know about it, I can only assume that our Civil Defence organisations also know about it ... and I trust them to have considered and prepared appropriate counter measures.

(c)
If they have .... we're safe.

(d)
If they haven't, we'll, we're stuffed

Personally, I'm relying on (a)
If I'm wrong, then I'm relying on (c)
If I'm still wrong .... that's life (and death).. I'm not going to loose too much sleep over it.

I'm more worried about the 167 Bus that screams around the corner each time I try and cross the road.

[Flying Binghi]

via peuce: ...considered and prepared appropriate counter measures...


Bye bye GPS signal...





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