Which Service Has Better Pilots

[Jane-DoH]

I'm not trying to troll here, I'm just honestly asking a question here. Which tends to on average have better pilots.

The USAF or the RAF?
The US Navy or the RN's Fleet Air Arm?
The RAF vs the RN Fleet Air Arm?
The USAF or the USN?


I could be wrong, but I have a hunch that the Royal Air-Force would probably have the US Air Force beat. As for the Fleet Air Arm compared to the US Navy, I'm not sure -- though the FAA was involved in helping the US Navy create Top Gun.

[JMP6]

FAA were better at landing on a pitching and yawing deck in the dark.

I think you'll find that they all have/had their fair share of excellent and average.

[Brian Abraham]

LETTER ON WHETHER TO BECOME AN AIR FORCE PILOT...... OR A NAVAL AVIATOR......

The piece is written by Bob Norris, a former Naval aviator who also did a 3 year exchange tour flying the F-15 Eagle. He is now an accomplished author of entertaining books about U.S. Naval Aviation including "Check Six" and "Fly-Off".

In response to a letter from an aspiring fighter pilot on which military academy to attend, Bob replied with the following:

22 December 2005
Young Man,

Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force Academies. Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a fine way to serve your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share some insight into which service would be the best choice. Each service has a distinctly different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one am I more likely to thrive in?"

USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run. Their training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet high standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are top-notch and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent. Their enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The USAF is homogenous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect, what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training & tools you need to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a situation over your head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one.

Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black Shoes (surface warfare) and Bubble Heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy is split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great, average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead these people during your career; y ou will be humbled and get your hands dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be over your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather and/or at night and you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends in the Navy and they will kick your ass until you become a lethal force. And some days - when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will catapult into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be drop-jawed that someone would pay you to do it. The hottest girl in the bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore.

Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask...pack warm & good luck in Colorado.

Banzai

P.S.: Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits.
P.S.S. And oh yes, the Army pilot program, don't even think about it unless you got a pair bigger than basketballs. Those guys are completely crazy.

And there is this

The three best things in life are:
- a good landing,
- a good orgasm,
- a good bowel movement.
The night carrier landing is one of the few opportunities in life to experience all three at the same time.

I'd say go Navy.

[Two's in]

Jane,

The fact that you didn't even list the Army Aviators demonstrates that you genuinely didn't know the answer to this question.

[Doors Off]

The fighter pilots poem (Navy or Air Force) says it all.

"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
:}

Doors Off

[Bertie Thruster]

Thanks to Dave it is no longer possible to answer the first 3 questions.

[xenolith]

The fact that Jane didn't list Army pilots would seem to indicate that she knows a lot more about it than she's letting on. :E

[Runaway Gun]

She didn't mention flying either. Does she mean personality?

[Fareastdriver]

I thought I had joined the Air Force. Judging by the snapshots I was in the Navy.

[Tourist]

It used to be the RAF, now it's the RN that's the best.

[shiko]

Agreed with Tourist for shiz :ok:

[Two's in]

In the UK at least, it will be the last service left with an operational airframe that wins this contest, still looking like the Army.

[Unchecked]

No mention of CHF ? They're the best at everything.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Jane:

They all pale into insignificance when stood beside the Airborne Gods of II Sqn. RAF Regiment... For they are just cabbies that take the real men to war or come when a target is found for them... :E

[minigundiplomat]

Problem solved.

The entire RAF/AAC can PVR and hand the entire military aircraft inventory over to both of the remaining FAA pilots.

One can do Tue-Wed, one can do Wed-Thu, that way they can carry out formation tasking on Wednesday afternoons.

See ya.

[ShyTorque]

The hottest girl in the bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore.

That girl is probably a bloke.

[L J R]

Aussie Av:


or Israeli Defence Force either ?

...You're joking

[BandAide]

Good pilots come from all sources.

It's only forks in the road that determine what path aviators take en route to the destination.

Based on more than a few Red Flags, Cope Thunders, 30 years of USAF, and 3 combat theatre's experience, man for man, IDF is the benchmark.

I got into a discussion once about what makes the best pilot. Some know the book by heart, some have golden hands, some are natural leaders and politicians, some are always cool and collected. But the best is the one who is not lacking in any of these things, these tools, even though he may not be particularly outstanding at any of them.

Combat, stress, fatigue and challenge reveal the worthy.

[galaxy flyer]

The RN FAA? They cannot be in the running, no fixed winged aircraft for a start and no carriers for an end. Forget it.

Brian

Me, ex-USAF, brother and several squadron mates, ex-USN, that posting has it absolutely correct. But for pure lethality, the USAF and the IDF are tops and that is the ONLY standard. If a war is ever decided by a competition of shipboard traps, my last dollar is on the USN.

GF

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A USAF Colonel once told me;
" If you guys (RAF) had our airplanes, we'd still be a colony"

Mind you, this was 2am, shortly before the visiting airshow crews literally drank their air base out of beer.

[finestkind]

Departing from all the humour I agree with bandaid.
It’s easy to be the ace in space when you’re flying the top bit of kit against a Sopwith camel. The time, the place and the operation all play a factor. Good pilots come from all areas.

Experience is gained from doing it, failures and success’. Knowledge is being smart/mature enough to use someone else’s experience to only have successes.

You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck

Truly superior pilots are those who use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

Speed is life, altitude is life insurance.

Navy carrier pilots regards Air Force pilots:
"Flare to land, squat to pee."

Air Force pilots regards Navy carrier pilots:
"Next time a war is decided by how well you land on a carrier, I'm sure our Navy will clean up. Until then, I'll worry about who spends their training time flying and fighting."

Navy pilots regards Air Force formation flying skills:
"Same way, same day."

[Brian Abraham]

Seeing as we seem to be knucklehead centric.

1. As an aviator in flight you can do anything you want... As long as it's right... And we'll let you know if its right after you get down.

2. You can't fly forever without getting killed.

3. As a fighter pilot only two bad things can happen to you and one of them will:
a. One day you will walk out to the aircraft knowing that it is your last flight in a fighter.
b. One day you will walk out to the airplane not knowing that it is your last flight in a fighter.

4. Success is being able to walk to your F.E.B.

5. There are Rules and there are Laws: The rules are made by men who think that they know better how to fly your airplane than you; and, the Laws (of Physics) were made by the Great One. You can, and sometimes should, suspend the rules but you can never suspend the Laws.

6. More about Rules:
a. The rules are a good place to hide if you don't have a better idea and the talent to execute it.
b. If you deviate from a rule, it must be a flawless performance, e.g., if you fly under a bridge, don't hit the bridge!

7. The fighter pilot is the highest form of life on earth.

8. The ideal fighter pilot is the perfect blend of discipline and aggressiveness.

9. About check rides:
a. Having someone climb into your fighter to grade how you fly is just like having someone come into your bedroom to grade how you perform.
b. The only real objective of a check ride is to complete it and get the *#%@&* out of your airplane.
c. It has never occurred to any flight examiner that the examinee could care less what the examiner's opinion of his flying ability really is.

10. The medical profession is the natural enemy of the aviation community.

11. The job of the Wing Commander is to worry incessantly that his career depends solely on the abilities of his aviators to fly their airplanes without mishap and that their only minuscule contribution to the effort is to bet their lives on it.

12. Ever notice that the only experts who decree that the age of the pilot is over are people who have never flown anything? Also, in spite of the intensity of their feelings that the pilot's day is over, I know of no such expert who has volunteered to be a passenger in a non-piloted aircraft.

13. It is absolutely imperative that the fighter pilot be unpredictable; rebelliousness is very predictable. In the end, conforming almost all the time is the best way to be unpredictable.

14. He who demands everything that his aircraft can give him is a pilot; he that demands one iota more is a fool.

15. If you're gonna fly low, do not fly slow!

16. It is solely the pilot's responsibility to never let any other thing touch his aircraft.

17. If you can learn how to fly as a Lt. and not forget how to fly by the time you're a LTC, you will have lived a happy life.

18. About night flying:
a. Remember that the airplane doesn't know that it's dark.
b. On a clear, moonless night, never fly between the tanker's lights.
c. There are certain aircraft sounds that can only be heard at night.
d. If you're going to night fly, it might as well be in the weather so you can double your exposure to both hazards.
e. Night formation is really an endless series of near misses in equilibrium with each other.
f. You would have to pay a lot of money at a lot of amusement parks and perhaps add a few drugs, to get the same blend of psychedelic sensations as a single night weather flight on the wing.

19. One of the most important skills to develop is the skill to ignore those things that were designed by non-pilots to get the pilot's attention.

20. At the end of the day, the controllers, ops supervisors, maintenance guys, weather guessers, and birds; they're all trying to kill you and your job is to not let them!

21. The concept of "controlling" airspace with radar is just a form of FAA sarcasm directed at fighter pilots to see if they're gullible enough to swallow it. To put it another way, when is the last time the FAA ever shot anyone down?

22. Remember that the radio is only an electronic suggestion box for the pilot. Sometimes the only way to clear up a problem is to turn it off.

23. It is a tacit, yet profound admission of the pre-eminence of flying in the hierarchy of the human spirit, that those who seek to control aviators via threats always threaten to take one's wings and not one's life.

24. Remember when flying low and inverted the rudder still works the same way but hopefully your IP never taught you "Pull stick Back, Plane go Up."

25. Mastering the prohibited maneuvers in the dash-10 is one of the best forms of aviation life insurance you can get.

26. A tactic done twice becomes a procedure. (Refer to unpredictability discussion above)

27. The aircraft G-limits are only there in case there is another flight planned for that particular airplane. If subsequent flights do not appear likely, there are no G-limits.

28. One of the beautiful things about a single piloted aircraft is the quality of the social experience.

29. If a mother has the slightest suspicion that her infant might grow up to be a pilot, she had better teach him to put things back where he got them.

30. The ultimate responsibility of the pilot is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions of earthbound ancestors who could only stare skyward and wish.

To para 30, the only thing that can be added, though once again knuck centric, really applies to all who have had the good fortune to strap on an airframe.

You love a lot of things if you live around them. But there isn’t any woman, and there isn’t any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane. And the men who love them are faithful to them even though they may leave them for others. Man has one virginity to lose in fighters, and if it be a lovely airplane he loses it to, there is where his heart will forever be.

[moggiee]

Departing from all the humour I agree with bandaid.
It’s easy to be the ace in space when you’re flying the top bit of kit against a Sopwith camel. The time, the place and the operation all play a factor. Good pilots come from all areas.

Experience is gained from doing it, failures and success’. Knowledge is being smart/mature enough to use someone else’s experience to only have successes.

You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck

Truly superior pilots are those who use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

I would agree with that. I would also add that I have seen people do remarkable things with second rate kit and seen people do second-rate things with remarkable kit. I would second BandAide's comments on the IDF - it's hard to think of any combat organisation that has been so consistently competent for so long.

However, there IS more to it than just being a fighter jock. For example, the chaps who undertake CSAR or other special ops in relatively slow, relatively large, lightly armed (or even unarmed) aeroplanes/helos are deserving of special mention in my opinion (and NO, I wasn't ever one of them).

[moggiee]

To put it another way, when is the last time the FAA ever shot anyone down?
Falklands Conflict? :)

(I know it's a different FAA - but it was a rather US-centric post)

[The Old Fat One]

Moggiee

I think you've misunderstood the point of rule 21.... and possibly embarrassed yourself a little bit in the eyes of the fighter jock commnunity. :E:E:E

[BandAide]

Some pearls in there, Brian.

[xerox25]

What about the CoAN in 82 ?

or

The Aeronautique Navale ?

[moggiee]

Moggiee

I think you've misunderstood the point of rule 21.... and possibly embarrassed yourself a little bit in the eyes of the fighter jock commnunity. :E:E:E
Errr...............no! I know what he was saying, I was just trying to make a pun-based joke upon the FAA (Federal Aviation Authority) and FAA (Fleet Air Arm) sharing the same initials. Clearly it fell upon deaf ears/blind eyes/stony ground. Oh well, it was worth a try.

[Load Toad]

I'm not trying to troll here

YouTube - Trolling Boxxy ( Many ways ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEy_4vGO-M8)

[The Old Fat One]

It did.

I apologise.

Taxi for TOFO

[Matt Skrossa]

FAA v RAF, let's get down to the nub of all this, the social life: RAF, Friday night happy hour in the Officers' Mess in some forlorn, flat and dull part of the UK drinking beer in your flying suit, talking to other people drinking beer in their flying suits about how good you were that week.

FAA, cocktail party in some warm, exotic part of the world, in your bush jacket, gold stripes and wings on your chest talking to a very interesting young lady about how much you have always been interested in (insert country) and does she know anyone who might be able to take you on a tour up country for a few days?

So what's it to be, RAC Patrolman lookalike, or Tom Cruise, but taller and much more entertaining?

[Wrathmonk]

Matt

Given this report :

Ministry of Defence sinks navy’s cocktail parties - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7061362.ece)

I would suggest your second paragraph best reworded as:

"FAA, miles from anywhere. Stuck on a grey tub and shunned by the ships company. Go ashore, meet young "ladies", find out they are the local RM detachment. Finally meet young lady who takes me up country. Return to grey tub and request tour extension until rash goes away".

So what's it to be, RAC Patrolman lookalike or a star from a gay flick?

;)

[Barksdale Boy]

Matt

I used to enjoy Friday evenings as described in para 1. But that was Waddo under Bootsie, Mike D'Arcy and Des. Happy days.

[Senior Pilot]

Since our cockersP's were paid for by the Wardroom members, I fail to see how they could be a drain on the Defence budget :hmm:

[Cameronian]

Coincidentally, moggiee to add to your post 25, there is the Fuerza Aérea Argentina. I know that they only downed the unfortunate Westland Scout, though.

[AR1]

A USAF Colonel once told me;
" If you guys (RAF) had our airplanes, we'd still be a colony"

250 years ago, if we had ANY airplanes [sic] they'd still be colony.

[moggiee]

It did.
I apologise.
Taxi for TOFO

Sorry - my reply to you was a bit rude, I was having a bad day (on top of a bad week!).

[Jane-DoH]

The IDF/IAF wasn't listed as it's pretty obvious that they are the best...

[L J R]

The IDF/IAF wasn't listed as it's pretty obvious that they are the best... :eek:

..Clearly the IDF / IAF that I have had dealings with :yuk: (and there are a lot - in a multitude of different platforms) are different to those that you have Jane...

[Trim Stab]

The IDF/IAF wasn't listed as it's pretty obvious that they are the best...


Very strange comment! All my dealings with the IDF have left me with the impression that they are badly motivated, poorly trained and ill-disciplined.

[Donna K Babbs]

Personally I think that RAF pilots are very good, although I also believe that the FAA pilots are talented and professional too. But which is better; there only one way to find out ............

[L J R]

so pistols at dawn it is...

[Old Fella]

Clearly, the Royal Australian Air Force C130 Hercules crews are the World's Best. Operating C130 aircraft to all quadrants of the globe for nearly 53 years and never lost an aircraft. Anyone know of another group with that sort of record? I doubt it!!!!:ok:

[Thomas coupling]

If thats your claim to fame hoppy - best you stay down under:ugh:

Surely one of the best claims is flying an S71 for 14 hours at 86000 on benzedrine - no?

[Old Fella]

That thing isn't an aircraft, it is a missile. BTW TC, it's "Skippy", not hoppy. :ok:

[Mmmmnice]

With a title like that, one just has to post...........but who in their right mind would ask a bunch of aviators who is the best?

So to put the record straight - it's plainly the SH Force

[clapperboard]

Maybe we should not be looking at who is the best, but :uhoh: we should be looking to improve those that are not so good and learning from each service as to what is the best way of doing something. Yes! the best can get involved in this because if they really are the best then they will be able to consider a different/better approach to carrying out an exercise. And then everyone can go home and let the royal AIR force get on with the job. :O.

[minigundiplomat]

Mmmm Nice,

thats not fair. The new generation of AD guys will soon be getting a new Pizza medal to wear at functions with the old and bold who got theirs in the 90's.

[Norfolk Inchance]

You cannot seriously include Americans in this list- how many blue on blues?? Used to make me nervous when I heard an American overhead.!!

[finestkind]

Norfolk Inchance,

the Americans have maintained their standards scince WWII.

Read somewhere, someplace, some time ago of the statement from a groundpounder in WWII, that when the Brits (read all Commonwealth) came over the Germans would duck, when the Germans came over they would duck and when the yanks came over everyone would duck.

[Jane-DoH]

Trim Stab

Very strange comment! All my dealings with the IDF have left me with the impression that they are badly motivated, poorly trained and ill-disciplined.

Really?

[moggiee]

Norfolk Inchance,

the Americans have maintained their standards scince WWII.

Read somewhere, someplace, some time ago of the statement from a groundpounder in WWII, that when the Brits (read all Commonwealth) came over the Germans would duck, when the Germans came over they would duck and when the yanks came over everyone would duck.
They did manage to bomb Switzerland nearly 50 times!