Virgin Recruitment

[Tourist]

Virgin have started recruiting ex military for their holding pool.

"Great!" I hear you cry. "sign me up for hot and cold running hosties!":}

They say - "If coming from a military background you will need to have 3000 hours which should include at least 1500 hours Fast Jet or heavy experience. "

"Still Great!" say the Zoomy and Fat boy fraternity whilst the helicopter gods are bent over once again.:mad:

They then go on to say - "You must hold a current Class one Medical and a full JAA ATPL licence (UK issue)."

Suddenly only the heavy guys say "great!"

Seriously, how many jet boys have a full JAA ATPL?
:confused:

[Runaway Gun]

So it appears that the helpful suggestions provided to the scrubbed RAF Trainee Pilots ("just join the airlines") might be a tad optimistic?

[VinRouge]

The point is, its a start.

Watch what happens from this point onwards. RYR dont have enough pilots. BA are due to lose loads due to retirement over the next few years (timeframe tba).

Lets not forget one fact: the airlines are about to start fleet renewal, something that is essential for their business models bearing in mind the price of oil.

Did you know Boeing/Airbus offer up a certain number of TRs as part of the package when purchasing an aircraft? Do you know how many A380/A330/787 are coming onstream for the airlines in the next 5-6 years? Its lots. With manufacturers including TRs in the contract, it doesnt cost Virgin/BA/Lufthansa etc a penny to get non-tr but experienced chaps through the door.

Mark my words, Multi engine FRI by 2016. So short sighted its untrue. Question is, who is going to stay on with them about to rape our pension? I would personally prefer to temporarily emmigrate to the ME on good coin than get rammed up the @rse by an ungrateful nation.

[bowly]

Mark my words, Multi engine FRI by 2016. So short sighted its untrue. Question is, who is going to stay on with them about to rape our pension? I would personally prefer to temporarily emmigrate to the ME on good coin than get rammed up the @rse by an ungrateful nation.

Wholeheartedly agree.

[beardy]

Did you know Boeing/Airbus offer up a certain number of TRs as part of the package when purchasing an aircraft?

Training credits for Type Ratings MAY be offered, but at a price. The purchasers/lessees don't always take up the offer (and do benefit from a price reduction if they don't), it depends on their own training capacity and commitment. For instance Virgin are gaining some initial type ratings and A330 operational experience with Thomas Cook, they will probably build on that to expand their own training schemes.

Sorry to dampen expectations.

[StopStart]

Virgin have started recruiting ex military for their holding pool.

Mega! Bye!
:ok:

[BEagle]

which should include

If you're considering civil flying, best you understand the significance of their terminology!

Obviously airlines are commercial enterprises, not charities. So if the choice is between an AT pilot with thousands of hours of worldwide route flying and a pilot who hasn't been above 100ft aal for years, the choice is pretty obvious....at the moment.

But the number of ATPL-qualified RAF pilots leaving for civil flying is, in airline terms, quite small. Any QSP will be a pretty good prospect for a civil employer, but right now the airlines can still afford to be choosy.

By the way, Virgin Atlantic isn't the airline it once was.....

[Black 'n Yellar]

...but it still beats being in the Military!!

[Easy Street]

3000hrs total is a big ask for a FJ mate these days. I suspect most of us will be waiting for the bar to be lowered a bit...

[Schnowzer]

Easy,

It was hard when I left too and we used to fly 300 plus hours / year on the F3. Were I you I'd keep a mil and civil logbook and log exact flight times from start of taxi to parking in the civvy one. Forget the factoring just log under both sets of rules in separate logbooks. I didn't and it delayed a subsequent command a tad, its amazing how much time is spent on the ground taxiing about particularly when operationally flying. I remember a time at Sig where we held on the deck for 55mins and trust me that time is no different to sitting in a 345 at LHR. Most airlines don't give a toss as long as it can be reasonably demonstrated it actually happened and the book gets stamped. After all how much of the time flown by banner tow aircraft up the Florida coast has been double or even triple accounted for by the wannabees.

[BEagle]

Were I you I'd keep a mil and civil logbook and log exact flight times from start of taxi to parking in the civvy one. Forget the factoring just log under both sets of rules in separate logbooks.

Absolutely - I've been advising people to do this for about 10 years now! Civil logbooks are very simple and accurate 'chocks-chocks' flight time recording is essential.

Although military pilots are generally honest, one ex-FJ 'parker pen' pilot was once rather annoyed to find himslef lagging behind ex-truckie co-pilots in the seniority stakes, so had amended his record of flying fast jets. But the aviation world is relatively small and a few discrete enquiries were made.... The result was that he had to leave the airline - and would have had extreme difficulty at future interviews. Other 'east coast of Florida' wannabes have been tempted to inflate their flight times when flying together - such dishonesty renders them unemployable.

[sargs]

can someone tidy my office and wash all the mugs up please.
There's a shock - a pilot expecting somebody else to clean up after him....:hmm:

[indie cent]

...puts down 'RAF Opinions Survey - your views are really important to us'

...picks up laptop.




....leaves mugs.

[MrBunker]

RYR dont have enough pilots. BA are due to lose loads due to retirement over the next few years (timeframe tba).

As much as I wish this were true both for my own career progression and for that of my ex-colleagues in the services, I wouldn't hold your breath. All the guys who were fortunate enough in age terms to benefit from the change in CRA to 65 don't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon and they've still all got a long way to run until 65. The only way they seem likely to go anytime soon is if EASA get their FTLs on the statute books. Also, if it's future career progression you're interested in (achieving a command on LH before retirement for example) then there's one heck of a bulge of cadet FO's from the mid to late 90's waiting to start the stagnation all over again when our captains retire. Overall, movement in BA is very sluggish at the moment and, whilst we're recruiting for expansion at the moment, it's not huge numbers and it won't take much more of a peak-oil intervention for the 744s to be heading back to Victorville sharpish.

Sorry if I sound unnecessarily pessimistic - I've some good friends still in the RAF who I'd love to be able to give more solid news to, let alone my own selfish interest.

MrB

[Trim Stab]

3000hrs total is a big ask for a FJ mate these days. I suspect most of us will be waiting for the bar to be lowered a bit...

In my experience in bizjets, employers are less interested in the total number of hours than they used to be. More important is a type-rating and (ideally) a ticket for London City, Lugano, Sion etc. Also, number of sectors flown is also of more interest than thousands of hours of cruise time.

FJ types with not enough hours for an ATPL might be better looking at investing in a light-jet rating and (say) an LCY check to stand out amongst the other type-rated pilots applying for the job. With a logbook full of shortish FJ sorties, plus those qualifications, you would be more attractive than somebody with 5000 hours spent mostly in the cruise.

Time to command is also much shorter than in airlines - you can get command in less than a year if you are good. Even better for ex FJ might be single-pilot aircraft like C510 or C525 - I have a mate who left FAF FJs and went straight to single-pilot on C525 on private ops.

It still wouldn't be easy, but could be an easier option than airlines if you are FJ and are desperate to get out.

[Jabba_TG12]

F.R.I.??? :confused:

One TLA that has passed me by I'm afraid....:E

[BEagle]

It's an abbreviation, not an acronym, of the term Financial Retention Incentive.

TLA is also an abbreviation, not an ancronym.

[Jabba_TG12]

Ah, mystery solved BEags, thank you! :ok:

[snaggletooth]

:=
initialism |ɪˈnɪʃ(ə)lɪz(ə)m|
noun
an abbreviation consisting of initial letters pronounced separately (e.g., CPU).
• an acronym.

[Thud Ridge]

Actually, FRI is an initialism, if you pronounce it F-R-I. If you were to say FRI as in 'fry' then that would make it an acronym.

An abbreviation is a shortening of a word or a phrase.
An acronym is an abbreviation that forms a word e.g. BASIC, RADAR etc.
An initialism is an abbreviation that uses the first letter of each word in the phrase (thus, some but not all initialisms are acronyms).

Anyway, back to Virgin, would they consider guys in the 2000+ bracket with an ATPL ready to go?

[MrBernoulli]

Abbreviation, acronym, yadda, yadda, yadda! Instead of jawing about inconsequential tat, get your CVs dusted off boys and girls. Now is the time to show HMG just how much you appreciate their complete lack of appreciation! The grass over here is not necessarily greener ( ....much), but it is different grass .... and that can be a refreshing change from frikkin' sand.

[BEagle]

Anyway, back to Virgin, would they consider guys in the 2000+ bracket with an ATPL ready to go?

Try asking at pilot(dot)recruitment(at)fly(dot)virgin(dot)com. If you don't ask, you'll never know!

Edit: Due to the pathetic PPRuNe web-nanny, you'll need to replace (dot) and (at) as appropriate in the address above....:mad:

[VinRouge]

BBC News - Airline giant Virgin Atlantic creates 450 jobs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-12710070)

Airline giant Virgin Atlantic has announced the creation of 450 new jobs.
Many of the new jobs, which include 350 cabin staff and 50 pilots, will be based at Gatwick airport.
The Crawley-based airline said it was creating a new route between Manchester and Las Vegas, and increasing London departures to the Caribbean and Ghana.
It will also introduce a new fleet of 10 Airbus A330 aircraft over the next two years, with the first two entering service in the next two months.
Corneel Koster, director of operations, safety and security for Virgin Atlantic, said: "We have enjoyed a good year of recovery and can now look forward to expanding our network and welcoming a new fleet of aircraft."
The airline said the bulk of the new cabin crew roles had been created to support the additional weekly flights from London to Ghana, Tobago, Grenada and Havana.
The launch of the new Manchester to Las Vegas route will create 100 crew jobs in the Manchester area.
The recruitment drive is in addition to the 200 jobs that Virgin Atlantic announced in November for its new contact centre in Swansea.

[Radhaz]

Whilst we're on the subject of airlines starting to recruit... (this is a thinly veiled slide off thread - sorry)... does anyone know where's good to do the MCC course at the moment? All the threads seem to be years old - not that it's too surprising.

Anyway, there's a few of us fast jet types with 3000+ hrs out there...

[indie cent]

Anyway, there's a few of us fast jet types with 3000+ hrs out there...

Confusing... Virgin appear to be inviting fast jet applicants; while simultaneously rejecting applications by stipulating a "full ATPL" as a requirement??

Any military pilot who has completed the final ATPL/CPL assessment (IRT) at one of the flying schools cannot possibly have a "full ATPL" at the time of application.

Only a CPL, unofficially known as a 'frozen ATPL', can be obtained. Therefore at around question 4 of the application where it says: 'Have you a full ATPL' and the answer is 'NO', your application will be instantaneously rejected with a desultory "computer says no" bzzzzzzt.

Nice!

[StopStart]

By "military pilot" you do in fact mean "fast jet pilot" of course. Plenty of us multi-engine pilots meet the hours criteria for a full ATPL.

[Trim Stab]

Only a CPL, unofficially known as a 'frozen ATPL'


Nitpicking mode here, but that is not correct. You can hold a CPL, but if you don't have IR/ME and haven't passed a few extra theory papers then you don't have a "frozen ATPL".

Anyhow, candidates have to be able to swim 25m continuously so probably rules out most crabs anyway;)

[BEagle]

Stoppers,

Any military pilot who has completed the final ATPL/CPL assessment (IRT) at one of the flying schools cannot possibly have a "full ATPL" at the time of application. to me infers a pilot who has obtained a licence under LASORS D3.3B terms, rather than ME chaps who have been able to take advantage of D3.3A.

If anyone who meets D3.3A criteria hasn't yet obtained an ATPL, they would be well advised to do so before the €urocratic chaos of EASA screws everyone about even further.....

Has Dickie B given you a start date yet? I see he's getting some A330s - handy for anyone who decides that flying Voyagers to ASI and MPA lacks further appeal after a couple of years or so...:uhoh:

[indie cent]

Note the red-herring title chaps as I believe the stipulated hours requirement is fair; given the demands of VA's exclusively LH setup.

Trim Stab thanks for the pedantic reminder. However, I was referring to the CPL that most military pilots obtain following the QSP flow diagram. All the majority of QSP's need is an appropriate type-rating and 500 hours multi-pilot to be unfrozen.

Stop-Start, I'm surprised at you! You'll have obtained your type-rating with an examiner on the jump seat of your civil-registered C130.

You have military colleagues from several types who do not have the appropriate type-rating for a full ATPL. Rather ungenerous there old sport!

Good luck with your application all the same. I thought you were a lifer!

ic

[StopStart]

:) not seeking to be un-generous old bean, merely clarifying the issue :ok:

As for being a lifer, I was until about 3 months ago when it became apparent that commitment, experience, enthusiasm and good-will all count for cock all when it comes to the latest hare-brained management reshuffle! I can think of better things to do with my time than assist in the rearrangement of deck chairs on the titanic so shall leave them all to it. Shame cos I love flying the Herc but there comes a point when the being-dicked-about outweighs the joy of the job. It just took me a little longer than most to reach that point!

Good luck to all those who are seeking exit into the civvy world :ok:

[Moe Syzlak]

"but there comes a point when the being-dicked-about outweighs the joy of the job"

And that point will come in Virgin too.

[StopStart]

Not under any illusions old chap and I know more than enough folk in the airlines to know that the grass certainly isn't greener outside, merely fertilised with a different type of sh*t.

[minigundiplomat]

And that point will come in Virgin too.


Or with any other employer probably. However, a change is as good a rest for many on here I imagine.

[angelorange]

"If coming from a military background you will need to have 3000 hours which should include at least 1500 hours Fast Jet or heavy experience."

compared to the Civi requirement:

"If coming from a commercial background you must have an Airbus or Boeing rating and experience with 3000 hours, 1000 on type."

My basic understanding of the english language is "Must" is more critical than "Should".

So perhaps more of you should apply!

[Ashling]

don't worry there will still be plenty of b0llocks from leadership

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Would I still have to do nonsense duties such as orderly officer?

[BEagle]

Would I still have to do nonsense duties such as orderly officer?

Several years ago, a chum who joined Virgin at just the right moment after leaving the RAF was whingeing about the fact that he was temporarily having to fly from Gatwick and that the company had only given him a company parking pass for his normal base at Heathrow.

Q. "Do they provide transport between Heathrow and Gatwick" A. "Yes"

Q. "What if you use your own car and drive to Gatwick?" A. "They pay the Heathrow-Gatwick mileage".

Q. "Even if you drive, as I b£oody well know you do, direct to Gatwick?" A. "Yes".

Q. "When did you last do SDO, you whingeing git?" A. :oh:

[BandAide]

"Airline giant Virgin Atlantic"

Wha...?

World's largest airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_largest_airlines)

[Fareastdriver]

When you look at the lists of airlines it is staggering to think that all the Chinese airlines have only really got going in the last twenty years.

[MrBernoulli]

I have heard, from more than one source within BA training, that BA intends to recruit a small (20-30?) number of direct entry pilots to the B744 from September and onwards. The company had expected to fill B744 positions from internal postings, but apparently overall B744 training requirements will be above that which the B744 training department can cope with. Obviously, type-rated applicants would be preferred by BA, but they don't know that there will necessarily be enough suitable applicants.

More recently there has been talk of BA, perhaps, being willing to accept some RAF applicants if they are licensed and have heavy jet experience. That sounds to me like you VC10, Tristar, C17, Nimrod and Sentry lot! BA may do this through the RAF Managed Path scheme - you are regsitered aren't you? The figure of over "2000 hours experience" is also being bandied about but whether that is total time, or heavy jet time, I don't know.

So, my advice would be to keep your ears and eyes open, ensure your CV is up to date, and start thinking about all the blurb that a BA on-line application requires (ask your mates!). Same goes for recruitment procedures that occur at Cranebank/Riverside. If you are not prepared when a (narrow) recruitment window opens, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

[There is little point in sending me PMs asking for any more info - it is all in this post, I don't know any more.]

[brit bus driver]

Mr B - your info gels with that we have from within the company (but I think it's the Airbus training system that's maxed, not the Jumbo).

Bit of a bugger for those of us type-frozen on the 'bus, but any movement is good news - especially for those guys who joined LH 3 years ago and have been on the bottom ever since!

[MrBernoulli]

Ah, okay, that might make sense. Sorry. I must have misunderstood. Whichever way we read it, the RAF heavy-jet lads and lasses just need to make sure they are in the starting blocks when the starting pistol fires. :ok:

[indie cent]

Whichever way we read it, the RAF heavy-jet lads and lasses just need to make sure they are in the starting blocks when the starting pistol fires.


With regard to the above I have some breaking news to lift the spirits:
The intitial restriction requiring possession of a Full ATPL has just been lifted. The website now features the following:

...for military pilots a frozen ATPL is acceptable.

Fantastic news I hope for those concerned and good luck to all.

(also BA recruiting again today, but are looking at 320/744 type-rated individuals only...)

[Dan Winterland]

''Not under any illusions old chap and I know more than enough folk in the airlines to know that the grass certainly isn't greener outside, merely fertilised with a different type of sh*t.''

Ha ha. Too true. When I joined Virgin in August 2001 during resettlement and final leave (not great timing) I was told I was redundant a few weeks after 9/11. So I managed to get made redundant from my first airline before I had even left the RAF! As it happened, they changed their mind a few hours later and eventually I would have been safe. Except that I left on voluntary redundancy.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote BEagle Several years ago, a chum who joined Virgin at just the right moment after leaving the RAF was whingeing about the fact that he was temporarily having to fly from Gatwick and that the company had only given him a company parking pass for his normal base at Heathrow.

Q. "Do they provide transport between Heathrow and Gatwick" A. "Yes"

Q. "What if you use your own car and drive to Gatwick?" A. "They pay the Heathrow-Gatwick mileage".

Q. "Even if you drive, as I b£oody well know you do, direct to Gatwick?" A. "Yes".

Q. "When did you last do SDO, you whingeing git?"



I hope this wasn't me!

Actually, the big bone of contention about this was about the way the company expected you to get to Gatwick. Virgin used to roster people from both LHR and LGW but tried to get away with it by having 'London' as a base in the contract. (Not legal unter FTLs.) When the CAA pointed this out, they then got the LGW crews to report to LHR one hour before and put ''Limo'' on the roster. Except there was no "Limo'', you had to get the regular shuttle bus which left every hour. Which meant if you were unlucky with your timings, you could have to get the bus 1 hr 55 minutes before report time at LGW. Add the 45 mins it took to park at the staff car park and get to the Queens building at LHR, it wasn't far off three hours you had to arrive at Heathrow before reporting for a two crew flight to the Caribbean using the "Florida 2'' variation to the FTLs - which was also being abused by VS. So it could lead to a very long and tiring day. Considering you could do this several times a month every month, it was getting beyond a joke. VS management's answer was "tough''.

So some of the more militant bods decided to do something about it and were turing up at LHR one hour before report at LGW and demanding the non-existant limo. After several flights were delayed and the crews had to go into discretion regularly, the CAA took notice and put a stop to it. That's when we got the LGW free parking. There wasn't any travel allowance for driving between LHR and LGW, and having to pay for the LGW parking several times a month put a big dent in the then very meagre VS pay.


Stop Start is right on with ''the grass certainly isn't greener outside, merely fertilised with a different type of sh*t.''

[BEagle]

No, mate - it wasn't you!

Thanks for clarifying the story I was told. But the chap did say that he was paid the LHR-LGW mileage....

Of course, before the M25 was completed Virgin could have used the helicopter shuttle....:\ I think not!

I had a look at Skytrax comments for VS recently and was sad to read: When you remember the good old days, it is pathetic to see how much this once unique airline has gone down.

[Fareastdriver]

When you remember the good old days,

Same with any company, whatever their persusion. They used to be run by entrepenures or experts in the business; they are now run by accountants.

[scroggs]

By the way, Virgin Atlantic isn't the airline it once was.....

Virgin was never the airline 'it once was'! The rose-tinted backwards-facing specs have transformed earlier days at Virgin into a non-stop, alcohol-fuelled romp with hot and cold running hosties and first-class travel between piss-ups. Ah, if only it was really like that back in the day... OK, it had its moments, but really that's when it was little more than a flying club that got by on a wing and a prayer and an inordinate amount of luck.

I've been at Virgin 13 years and, while I still enjoy the job, it doesn't fit the descriptions I hear or read of it from those who've never been here! It may not be the 'giant' that the newspaper article mentioned (those Virgin PR people are good...), but it is a big organisation with a very hard-nosed attitude to business. Pilots are simply a (bloody expensive) business cost, and not gods to whom the rest of the airline gives obeisance. Sadly.

I've posted many times on the reality of longhaul airline life - do a search; you'll find them - and I've no reason to change anything I've said. There are many issues which detract from the utopia we'd love to achieve, but on the whole it's not a bad life if you can take the tedium that is an inevitable part of longhaul flying.

However, it may be too late this time - I suspect that article came out after the window for application closed. BA will be recruiting soon, I've no doubt, as will the lo-costers - but read as much as you can here about any airline you might wish to try before you commit pen to paper.

[BEagle]

scroggs - the comment about Virgin Atlantic not being the airline it once was came from a couple of long-serving Virgin captains (who've been with the airline for rather longer than 13 years).

Regrettably, passenger opinion seems to agree.

The airline has lost its USP, it seems....

[gijoe]

The USPs for me were a bar before launch, pretty girls and a choc ice before snoozing...

Have they gone?

G:ok:

[scroggs]

=BEaglescroggs - the comment about Virgin Atlantic not being the airline it once was came from a couple of long-serving Virgin captains (who've been with the airline for rather longer than 13 years).

Regrettably, passenger opinion seems to agree.

The airline has lost its USP, it seems....

I'm not disagreeing with you, BEags. But show me an organisation that is what it used to be? Virgin, like all airlines, got caught up in chasing the bottom line many years ago. Its USP has been little more than a figment of its customers' imaginations for some time. 'Still Red Hot' is, after all, just a marketing spiel. All that said, there are plenty worse places to work, and premium passengers still get a better experience than they do on most other airlines. But the expectations that still exist among those who aspire to work for Virgin need bringing somewhere closer to reality, without over-negativity.

[The Old Fat One]

The airline has lost its USP, it seems....

Not seeking to disagree, but actually it is Air Travel which has lost is USP. What for a brief moment in time was quick, fairly comfortable and very cost effective has become, tedious, stressful, increasingly expensive (think car parking etc) and undignified.

Off to London (from Scotland) next week. First class train ticket for roughly the same cost. Door to door travel time maybe a couple of hours more. Plus I'll get a shed load of work done on the train with internet access all the way and a first class lounge to boot.

10 year ago air travel V train, no contest.

Now air travel V train, no contest.

Just that the winners have reversed.

[Scruffy Fanny]

BEagle is correct Virgin is not what it was- however its probably still the best out there mainly because it has a 750 hr limit for pilots. Sadly the Hosties dont often go out as they save their allowances and dare i say it a lot of the crew like gardening uphill!- Added to the fact it has an HR dept that is out of control and a GMF who is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but and i say a big but it is still the best- speak to anyone in the UAE- life is pretty awful when you fly 900Hrs + per year. For any one joining VAA try a speak to guys on different fleets- The 747 fleet is very different to the A340 ( probably the best) but going on the A330 will be a rolling Goat F++K - so if you get in think twice about what fleet you are going to Rgds SF