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tartare
9th Mar 2011, 01:23
Watching the coverage of the rebels being bombed - I wondered if those ancient anti-aircraft guns were any use at all... I suspect not.
What would you need to take out an SU-22 from the ground - a minimum of something like a Stinger?
Are there any MANPADs worth fearing in that part of the world?
It looked like the Libyan pilots were flying pretty high anyway - although hard to judge from TV...

Kengineer-130
9th Mar 2011, 03:08
They should buy some high power green laser pointers, then blind & distract the pilots at a critical moment. This would surely result in a 100% kill rate :}:ok:

onetrack
9th Mar 2011, 04:33
The story I got was that the SU-22 was brought down by a single, lucky RPG shot. Very lucky, I'd have to think.

hanoijane
9th Mar 2011, 05:38
Tartare, you're clearly someone who has never experienced the 'destabilising' effect that tracer headed in your direction has on your focus.

On the other side of the coin, were I sitting quietly in a desert somewhere and I saw an angry-looking Sukhoi barreling towards me, would I like to find myself near a cute bells-and-whistles advanced MANPAD or an ancient ZPU 4?

I'll think I'll take the gun, thank you.

Really, when will you guys start to appreciate that what works wonderfully well fresh out the factory on a sanitized range somewhere is next to ******* useless in the real world of half-trained operators, humidity or dust and limited or no servicing facilities?

A2QFI
9th Mar 2011, 05:59
In the late 70s, when I was in RAFG, the performance and numbers of ZSU 23-4 used to bother me a lot! However, I see no evidence that there are any radar laid AAA devices in Libya, so unless they have enough ammunition to put up a wall of flying metal I think they will just have to hope to get lucky.

Henry09
9th Mar 2011, 06:36
Hanoijane

Really, when will you guys start to appreciate that what works wonderfully well fresh out the factory on a sanitized range somewhere is next to ******* useless in the real world of half-trained operators, humidity or dust and limited or no servicing facilities?

I am not sure what anyone has said in the 3 posts previous to yours to warrant your comment. Also, just to get things straight, if you can see tracer, then be happy as the ammunition is not headed in your direction. Because of the arc of burn behind the round you cannot see the bullet that is coming directly at you.

Hipper
9th Mar 2011, 06:45
As a matter of interest, are exploding shells - shrapnel - still used today as anti-aircraft fire?

PPRuNe Pop
9th Mar 2011, 07:00
All I have seen is haphazard aiming. The art of laying on is lost on an untrained gunner - or laying off. I doubt that Libyan pilots have anything to worry about.

LookingNorth
9th Mar 2011, 07:56
There has been some TV footage of ZSU-23/4s - albeit clearly damaged/destroyed - parked up inside various towns, and some rebels holding modern looking handheld SAMs (Strela?) too. I can't believe an RPG took down a Su-22, and the more basic visually-guided AAA that the rebels have been having fun making noise with don't look to be much of a threat given the inept way they're being operated...

Double Zero
9th Mar 2011, 08:45
That story of the bloke 'who was having his first day with the AA gun with one out of 2 barrels working ,and downed the Sukhoi as it went past', had a distinct aroma of aged Halibut...am I alone in wondering if there was a non-Libyan person with something like a Stinger behind a handy sand dune ?!

Henry09
9th Mar 2011, 09:10
am I alone in wondering if there was a non-Libyan person with something like a Stinger behind a handy sand dune ?!

No! There are at least two of us think similar 'possibilities'. ;)

PPRuNe Pop
9th Mar 2011, 10:20
A SU-22 would have be parked on the ground at a distance of not more than 500mtrs. To be really effective the RPG has to be closer than that. Firing at moving aircraft could be done as a joke though!

The RPG is an anti-tank/anti personell weapon and to kill a tank it still has to fired at a close range. Now if they had a few Bofors with the required trained crew they could whang off 50-60 rounds a minute, with its very high muzzle velocity - who knows? However, the Libyan gunners etc., are all seemingly untrained rebels - indeed a rabble. But I'll give them 10/10 for guts.

BEagle
9th Mar 2011, 10:43
Latest information is that the downed aircraft was an Su-24MK Fencer, not an Su-22 Fitter.

Although a lucky shot with an RPG wouldn't be impossible, it's more likely that the aircraft was shot down by conventional AAA.

An interesting piece from Wikipedia:

A Libyan Su-22 crashed near the city of Benghazi, Libya on 23 February 2011. The crew members, Captain Attia Abdel Salem al Abdali and his number two, Ali Omar Gaddafi, were ordered to bomb the city in response to the 2011 Libyan protests. They refused, bailing out of the aircraft and parachuting to the ground. Su-22s also attacked Anti-Gaddafi positions on Ben Jawad in early March 2011 as government forces retook the town.

Pontius Navigator
9th Mar 2011, 10:49
BEagle, the first report I heard was of a Fencer as well. While it may well have ceased to fly it is perhaps as likely that it simply crashed or was abandoned rather than shot down just like the Su22.

TEEEJ
9th Mar 2011, 11:06
Video of the wreckage of the Su-22UM near Ajdabiya on the 23rd February. The crew ejected as highlighted in post by BEagle.

9vExlYYIsCQ

ASN Aircraft accident 23-FEB-2011 Sukhoi Su-22UM-3K Fitter-G (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=90464)

The shoot down at Ras Lanuf on March 05 was an Su-24. The two-man crew died in the crash.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/blogpostFeaturedImage/images/downedjet.jpg

TJ

Jabba_TG12
9th Mar 2011, 11:20
Am I the only one slightly surprised to see a Russian made aircraft in the service of an Arab Air Force showing manufacturer/squadron markings in English in what appears to almost be an American styled squadron badge?

I mean, I'm no conspiracy theorist, but..... :confused:

TEEEJ
9th Mar 2011, 12:04
Jabba_TG12,

Nothing unusual in that. The aircraft shot down was serial 38. The following image is Su-24MK, serial 37, imaged in Libya during an airshow. Note the Squadron markings on the tail?

Photos: Sukhoi Su-24MK Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Libya---Air/Sukhoi-Su-24MK/1349908/L/)

TJ

Thelma Viaduct
9th Mar 2011, 12:28
It definitely looks like a spam beret badge, and it looks about the right size for their cholesterol infused swedes.

Runaway Gun
9th Mar 2011, 12:34
I wondered if those ancient anti-aircraft guns were any use at all... I suspect not.

Obviously no use at all, as I'm sure that the original specifications that the aircraft are designed to include something along the lines of: "Must be capable of sustaining no damage from a direct hit by 23mm ammunition..." :rolleyes:

Jabba_TG12
9th Mar 2011, 13:10
Ah, ok Teeej. In fairness thats a pretty good picture. Just struck me as a bit odd thats all. Then again, given its Ghadaffi.... maybe I shouldnt have been so surprised!:E

hanoijane
9th Mar 2011, 13:59
I am not sure what anyone has said in the 3 posts previous to yours to warrant your comment.

Then permit me to enlighten you, dear Henry. I think it was the 'I wondered if those ancient anti-aircraft guns were any use at all... I suspect not' that irritated me.

if you can see tracer, then be happy as the ammunition is not headed in your direction. Because of the arc of burn behind the round you cannot see the bullet that is coming directly at you.

Is that how tracers work? Golly, I never knew. I thought the rounds had a little chap hanging on to the front shining a tiny torch in my direction trying to dazzle me.

My point was that you can see what you're flying into, which is the 'destabilising' bit.

That story of the bloke 'who was having his first day with the AA gun with one out of 2 barrels working ,and downed the Sukhoi as it went past', had a distinct aroma of aged Halibut.

That's odd, 'cos I know a number of people who - change name of aircraft - managed something very similar.

No! There are at least two of us think similar 'possibilities'.

More nonsense from the Boys Own Book Of Warfare...

Biggus
9th Mar 2011, 14:05
...as opposed to the 1955-1975 Book of Warfare?












Have you ever considered anger management therapy? :rolleyes:

Henry09
9th Mar 2011, 14:24
Hanoijane

Well aren't we sanctimonius!
So how does the

it was the 'I wondered if those ancient anti-aircraft guns were any use at all... I suspect not' that irritated me

lead to your statement

Really, when will you guys start to appreciate that what works wonderfully well fresh out the factory on a sanitized range somewhere is next to ******* useless in the real world of half-trained operators, humidity or dust and limited or no servicing facilities?

which is the statement i said was unwarranted. I don't get it! Do you?

you say

s that how tracers work? Golly, I never knew. I thought the rounds had a little chap hanging on to the front shining a tiny torch in my direction trying to dazzle me.

but you demonstrated in your first post that you did not know how tracer worked

Tartare, you're clearly someone who has never experienced the 'destabilising' effect that tracer headed in your direction has on your focus.

It isn't headed in your direction is it?

My point was that you can see what you're flying into, which is the 'destabilising' bit.


That wasn't your point, read your line above again.

More nonsense from the Boys Own Book Of Warfare...

A better read than the girl guides book of knitting i wager. Do you think you are the only one here that has been in warfare? The only one who has experienced tracer? Destabalising! you need to grow a pair.

What Biggus said.

dead_pan
9th Mar 2011, 14:25
Here's hoping there will soon be a few 'advisers' on hand to show them how to best organise their AA defences - their efforts to date appear to have have been pretty shambolic, even to a layman like me.

I bet all of those gun-nuts in America must be green with envy at some of the mounts these guys have been totin', not to mention being given the chance to blaze away with gay abandon at real targets (and an apparently almost unlimited supply of ammo).

kenparry
9th Mar 2011, 14:34
original specifications that the aircraft are designed to include something along the lines of: "Must be capable of sustaining no damage from a direct hit by 23mm ammunition..."

Well, that's wishful thinking. Most modern combat aircraft have no armour, so a 23 mm shell would do a lot of damage. Only a few types, specifically designed for close air support, such as the A-10, carry armour.

Henry09
9th Mar 2011, 14:38
Ken

Runaway was being funny! Note what he refers to and the raised eyes, smiley :rolleyes:

PPRuNe Pop
9th Mar 2011, 15:23
Just before any of you decide to alter the topic or throw hissy fits let me assist you in your deliberations. DON'T.

TEEEJ
9th Mar 2011, 21:19
Jabba_TG12,

No problem. Libyan Su-22s also carry shield insignia.

Photos: Sukhoi Su-22M3 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Libya---Air/Sukhoi-Su-22M3/1615006/L/)

-----------------------------------------

Footage of Su-22 being fired on from 01:19.

jaUMWYNeab0

Chairborne Warrior doing his anti-aircraft bit!

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/6118/800xv.jpg

TJ

Fire 'n' Forget
9th Mar 2011, 21:23
So thats where all our old SLR's went after we were finished with them !

hanoijane
10th Mar 2011, 02:45
Ah yes, the 1955-75 book was a classic. Warfare was never quite as romantic again, was it? Bare metal fighters. Big scary bombers. Good guys and bad guys. Like WWII on steroids. Why did we ever let those days drift away...?

But to tear myself away from young Henry and his semantics for a second (English is not my first language, Henry) and to keep a fretting Mod happy, let's assume you're tasked with a mission to drop something nasty onto an angry insurgents head. What's uppermost in your mind? The possibility you may fall victim to a well-briefed and trained SF guy hiding in a sand dune with his perfectly maintained Stinger or Igla, or some Random Charlie with his finger on the trigger of an ancient and battered ZPU intent on spraying your portion of the sky?

I clearly do need to 'grow a pair' 'cos, to my simple mind, guided stuff is eminently dealable-with, whereas unguided is not. And I suspect the very same thoughts are running through the heads of most non-armchair pilots over there...

Henry09
10th Mar 2011, 03:20
Hanoijane

I am far from young and am not an armchair pilot. English may not be your first language but in any language the arguments you are making are very confusing. Comment was made on a statement made by you concerning the effectiveness of the arms currently in the possession of the rebels. You said, ... and here it is again

Really, when will you guys start to appreciate that what works wonderfully well fresh out the factory on a sanitized range somewhere is next to ******* useless in the real world of half-trained operators, humidity or dust and limited or no servicing facilities?

So you don;t think that the arms and munitions in the hands of the current operators are effective. Yet in your post above you are implying that you would rather go in against a highly trained SF operator with Stinger or Igla, than rebels filling the air with lead, because

cos, to my simple mind, guided stuff is eminently dealable-with, whereas unguided is not.

It may come as a complete shock to you that if you perceive there is a small arms or AAA threat and that manpads are eminently 'dealable with' then you can modify your flight profile and operate above the threat band, or were you only taught to drop bombs from low level? Even the formidable ZSU 23-4 only has an effective operating range of up to 2500 m on a good day and the ZPU's much less.

hoofie
10th Mar 2011, 03:45
I was watching a TV clip of the fighting in Libya [lots of blokes running around shooting at aircraft]. In one of the clips someone was holding a MANPAD [if that is the correct acronym] and I could have sworn it was a stinger - the giveaway was the IFF antenna which is rather obvious with the slots in the shape. I'm a civilian and no expert but I have an interest in military technology and I'm 99.9% certain that's what I saw - or is there a similar piece of ex-Warsaw Pact technology ?

hanoijane
10th Mar 2011, 03:56
*sigh*

Henry, are you trying to be obtuse? I think I'm in Singapore next week if you'd really like to discuss this...

And I haven't been taught to drop bombs on anyone, Henry. Air-to-ground is a game for individuals lacking both imagination and a conscience.

May I drag you back to the OP's observation, which I sought to correct? Unguided munitions are, indeed, lethal and are the most likely cause of the loss under discussion. MANPADS are viable but - given the specifics of the theatre - are unlikely to be a significant threat.

Now, tell me you love me :-)

Henry09
10th Mar 2011, 04:02
I love you https://mail.google.com/mail/e/B0C

Pontius Navigator
10th Mar 2011, 08:24
given its Ghadaffi.... maybe I shouldnt have been so surprised!:E

yup, remember all those medals he wears to outspam the spams?

TEEEJ
10th Mar 2011, 15:00
Hoofie,

Keep an eye out on the following forum. If a Stinger is active in rebel hands it will most likely be noted by these guys?

Libyan Conflict - Photos and Videos (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?195079-Libyan-Conflict-Photos-and-Videos)

TJ

Wrathmonk
10th Mar 2011, 15:41
Here's hoping there will soon be a few 'advisers' on hand to show them how to best organise their AA defences

Seems that the French may have put their towel down on the sun bed so that their 'advisers' are not treated the same way as ours!

Meanwhile, France has become the first country to recognise the Libyan rebel leadership, the National Libyan Council (NLC), as the country's legitimate government

Taken from : BBC News - Libya: Gaddafi forces push rebels from Ras Lanuf (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12703369)

TheWizard
10th Mar 2011, 16:27
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l21/josip25/ccc.jpg
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1389/800xy.jpg

SirToppamHat
10th Mar 2011, 19:19
I thought it was 'All Arms Air Defence' - when did feet come into it?

D John
10th Mar 2011, 20:11
I was going to say that being showered with hot cases and links would be pretty uncomfortable, then I noticed that the guy in the first photo already has an empty case stuck up his nose!:ouch:


-D John:ok:

dead_pan
10th Mar 2011, 20:13
Why has the chap at the bottom tucked his trousers into his socks? Has he just arrived by bike, or is he worried his trouser legs may fall down (or up) and reveal his bare ankles? I think we should be told.

TheWizard
10th Mar 2011, 20:44
More importantly, what is the second guy hoping to fire out of his empty weapon??
"Dakka, dakka, dakka...."

(100 dollar for picture mister, make good front page, thank you please)

Nick10
10th Mar 2011, 22:49
back to the orginal topic of the thread - isn't it more likely the aircraft simply fell apart in the air pulling hi g. old/badly maintained airframe etc.

hoofie
11th Mar 2011, 01:24
Keep an eye out on the following forum. If a Stinger is active in rebel hands it will most likely be noted by these guys?

Libyan Conflict - Photos and Videos

Thanks for that TJ. Nothing I can see on that forum - however someone on another forum mentioned that they thought they had identified one from TV pictures also.

Also apparently in 1987 the Reagan administration sent Stingers to Chad to support them in their fight against Libya - it looks like some of them have found their way to the rebels then. I would have thought though that the missile and batteries would be well knackered after 20+ years of storage and probably zero maintenance.

Henry09
11th Mar 2011, 02:51
back to the orginal topic of the thread - isn't it more likely the aircraft simply fell apart in the air pulling hi g. old/badly maintained airframe etc.

No. (and this bit added to take up 10 characters)

hanoijane
11th Mar 2011, 03:53
OMG, I agree with Henry. Pass me the service revolver, Claude...

Henry09
11th Mar 2011, 04:21
And here was me telling you I loved you. I am broken, just beyond repair ................ mmmbbbbwaaaaaaaaaaaa:{

hanoijane
11th Mar 2011, 05:26
Oh Henry, stop it with the crocodile tears. You know I'm only playing hard to get.

Now that you're in a more affectionate mood, perhaps you could explain why you feel the Stinger would be the MANPAD of choice by third parties intent on mischief in Libya, rather than the far-more-easily-deniable (and more easily confused by simple countermeasures) Strela or the (quite accurate but probably not available) Igla?

XV277
11th Mar 2011, 12:33
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l21/josip25/ccc.jpg
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1389/800xy.jpg

My god, Rambo lives!!

Airborne Aircrew
11th Mar 2011, 12:50
My god, Rambo lives!!

Utter rubbish... He'd use a bow!