Flying Training circa a long time ago

[PPRuNeUser0131]

I found this while perusing Service records from the Australian Archives Service Records.

As I believe there is a no names policy, I have left it out (not that there is anything derogatory in it). The individual has a surname very famous in the Light Horse.

If you wanted to be a pilot in 1918, this is what you had to do....(I am unsure of the name of the first acft named "Avro Leabone??"

And this man was off to the Western Front after graduation with 34 hours in the logbook.

TO GRADUATE “A” A PUPIL MUST HAVE :-

1. Undergone instruction at a school of Aeronautics.

2. Completed twenty five hours solo and dual.

3. Attained Flying Standard “V” on an elementary machine.

4. Flown a Graduation Aeroplane satisfactorily.

5. Climbed to 10,000 feet, remained there for at least 15 minutes, after which he will land with his engine stopped, the aeroplane first touching the ground and coming to a halt within a marked circle 150 yards in diameter.

6. Passed following tests :-
(a) Formation Flying Satisfactorily maintained his position in formation flights for a total of Four (4) hours in formation (to include a minimum of three (3) separate flights).
(b) Forced Landings Four forced landings in fields not forming part of Aerodrome.
(c) Cloud Flying While taking full control of machine remained Three (3) minutes in clouds with instructor
(d) Aerial Gunnery While diving at a ground target taken two successful photographs of the target from 1,500 foot or under.
(e) Prop swinging (this was handwritten)



(X) FLYING STANDARD “ V “

Can fly his machine accurately and can land consistently well at slow speeds, tail down,
Can, in addition, carry out the following manoeuvres with absolute confidence and accuracy on an elementary machine :-
1. Three sustained turns in each direction, with and without engine – bank to be 45 degs. or over.
2. Sharp figures of eight, Climbing turns to left and right,
3. Stall the machine with and without engine,
4. Sideslip in either direction and land off a sideslip,
5. Spin, half roll and loop (Avro’s and A, V’s only),
6. Confident and reliable in clouds, in rough weather or on a forced landing. Understands the theory ot landing across wind.

Certified that ( Cadet Named ) has passed
Category “A” and is fit to graduate
Date: 21.6.18 Instructor


CONFIDENTIAL
1st WING

REPORT ON AN OFFICER WHO HAS UNDERGONE A COURSE OF INSTRUCTION

No 8 T’ing Squadron Royal Air Force

YEAR: 1918

PERIOD OF COURSE: 4th May 1918 - 21st June 1918

DATE OF GRADUATION: 21.6.18

NAME AND RANK: Cadet (named)

REGIMENT: Headquarters 1st Australian Division

QUALIFICATIONS
TYPES OF MACHINES FLOWN) Avro Leabone (?) )
AND ABILITY IN THEM ) Avro Mono )
Sop. Scout ) Good.

CROSS COUNTRY FLYING:- Good

MECHANICAL KNOWLEDGE:- Fair

DATE OF PASSING EXAMINATION “A”:- Oxford 7.2.18
Reading...........

Date joined squadron
For higher instruction:- 21.6.18

TIME IN AIR Hrs Mins
(i) During higher instruction. 34 10
(ii) Total solo since commencing tuition. 20 0
(iii) Total dual since commencement of tuition 14 10
Total 34 10
Qualities as an Officer

will make a good officer
ANY FURTHER REMARKS

Shows considerable promise. Will make a good scout pilot

Place Leighterton(*?) Gloster Commanding......Squadron
Date 25.6.18 Australian Flying Corps

Headquarters
No 7 Group
Royal Air Force

- Forwarded –
Place.....................
Date...................... Commanding 1st Wing
Australian Flying Corps

[Jack Ranga]

In cloud for 3 minutes after a minimum of 25 hours dual and solo!! And in those aircraft with what I would think very basic instrumentation.

Brave men, the life expectancy of these pilots wasn't real flash I believe?

Thanks for posting that, fascinating stuff :ok:

[LewC]

Possibly an AVRO 504 fitted with the Le Rhone engine.

[Hot High Heavy]

How did these guys handle IMC? I've seen some examples of early machines from circa 1914 in museums and there doesn't appear to be any AI or Turn Co-ord. What would they have used for attitude awareness in the absence of these!?

Hats off to these brave lads!

[MikeTangoEcho]

Otolith organs and semicircular canals :E

[Jack Ranga]

They would have learnt aerobatics in a hurry :}

[Chimbu chuckles]

You guys might be surprised how good the 'Blind Flying Panel' of that era was. The pic below is of the Tiger Moth I fly regularly but I believe nothing much changed in this class of aircraft between 1918 and 1928/30 when the Gypsy Moth was first designed and flown and the Tiger Moth evolved from the Gypsy Moth a couple of years later.

The vertical orange tube is the 'Attitude Indicator' (now you know the difference between an AI and an AH) and has a bubble in it that can be compared to numbers that run along the edge showing nose up or down. The bottom of the Turn Co-ordinator shows angle of bank and the top slip or skid. The compass is self evident as is the ASI and Altimeter.

With minimal practice it is perfectly possible to fly climbs/descents/turns onto specific headings reasonably accurately in IMC.

In fact they used to teach spin recovery 'under the hood' in Tiger Moths.

http://www.fototime.com/{24511CD0-3AEA-45D2-ACDE-4D7620942658}/origpict/Yard%2520017.jpg

[Ozzie Mozzie]

I've always wondered why the tacho in those types is mounted at an angle.

[Chimbu chuckles]

For the life of me I can't remember - if I ever actually knew.

I'll ask Ron. Its one of those things I have noticed too off and on over the years but never really thought enough of it to ask.

[Jamair]

Gidday Chuck. Could it be that the needles vertical in normal operation, so any scan would show an anomaly simply by seeing a needle out of the vertical?

Just a WAG......

Isn't there a 'slip' string on the windscreen as well?

[tinpis]

Forty quid go to whoa for PPL.
I was offered 3 Tigers and numerous tea chests full spare for $500 in 1969
Did you know lamb has doubled in price in the past two years?

[tuck]

Only for the pretty ones!

[Old Fella]

tuck, was that only for the pretty ones in NZ?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey Chuck,

Do you always fly this from the rear seat.....and why..??
:ok::ok:

p.s. NICE panel...!!!:ok::ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Do you always fly this from the rear seat.....and why..??

Of course. Why?

To ensure the CofG is in the range it needs to be for the tail skid to actually work as designed.

So you can see the fuel gauge.

So you can see period.

I think I read somewhere that in the 1950s some people used to race Tiger Moths from the front seat so the CofG would be forward and there would be less induced drag from the elevator.

Isn't there a 'slip' string on the windscreen as well?

You dick;)...how would that work in the prop blast?

[Jack Ranga]

$500 in 1969

That would have bought you 4 houses in Frankston though ;)

[tinpis]

That would have bought you 4 houses in Frankston though
Probably still would down near the railway line

Don't like the wood panel Chuck, should be matt black
Unless I'm old and can't remembry dont all tacho needles tend to be in the ten past two at normal cruise?
Sundaun should know this he was instructing on Tigers and as I recall gave me my type rating about a 100 years ago

[Centaurus]

And you can do Rate 4 turns in Tigers, too. See the Turn needle graduations.
We used to spin on instruments on Tigers in the RAAF. During the spin the Turn needle showed hard over beyond Rate 4 while the skid needle showed hard over in opposite direction. You whacked on full opposite rudder to the spin direction and eased the stick forward. As soon as the Turn needle whipped across from Rate 4 to the other side rate 4 you centralised the rudder as the needle passed the central position and then pulled out of the dive. Quite disorientating under the canvas hood but a great confidence builder. Mind you it was also a great confidence builder to be sitting on the parachute, too. You never know..:E

[tinpis]

You whacked on full opposite rudder to the spin direction and eased the stick forward.

And if your Tiggy wasn't fitted with spin strakes you would be rewarded with nothing happening for half a turn or so
Better than bungy jumping and all for ₤3 an hour

[Tmbstory]

Chimbu chuckles:

I thought there was a "Gosport Tube" in the DH-60m and the DH-82's that I did some of my time on.

Enjoyed the photo, thanks

Tmb

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I seem to recall reading something in the annals of the (RAAF / RAF..??) many moons ago that a certain Pilot was 'Charged with an Offence' for crashing a certain aeroplane - was it a 'Maurice Farman Biplane' - when there was a WHOLE 7 KTS difference between the stall And the cruising speed..??

They flew them 'RIGHT' in dem ole days....:ok:

"Attitude Bloggs...attitude..." :ok:

[Air Tourer]

Well I decided to fly the club tiger in 1964 or 5. This confirmed my reputation as a pain in the butt student.

We were never allowed to use the slats for landing, because it would "land too slow". As for a stall warning on final, well we had to approach at 70, same as all other club trainers. And as a mere student we might forget to lock them for aerobatics.

The fuel gauge? was never taught to read it. I assumed if you saw fuel, that was good enough.

Never did spins because my instructor got too cold during the climb, (or cold feet,) and reckoned he couldn't reach full rudder movement. "Lets go home he said".

CFI on endorsement circuit after one landing said "go in and put this thing away".

In the meantime I managed to get the radio mic down into the joystick well, which meant a very tail high wheeler landing and a worried instructor.

Next, I nearly landed on an aircraft taxi-ing from the right while I had my head out the left side all the way down short final. (And another very worried instructor.)

Another instructor did all my circuit time doing 3 landings from the front, while he got the hang of it. Never saw him again anyway.

I also forgot to ask why we had that monstrous great old compass instead of a nice little modern one. After all, we had radio, because the voice tube thing didn't work to the twr. Poor tiger probably hasn't been out of the hangar since.:rolleyes:

[bankrunner]

I've heard that it's fun to show up in a Tiger Moth at a large capital city aerodrome with neither radio nor transponder. Apparently, being of wood and fabric construction, they haven't got that much of a profile on primary radar :}

[SgtBundy]

bankrunner - pretty sure it would just get written up as a birdstrike :}

[Chimbu chuckles]

I thought there was a "Gosport Tube" in the DH-60m and the DH-82's that I did some of my time on.

She's a very 'stock standard' Tiger - but thankfully not THAT stock standard.:eek:

Tinny I think the panels look awesome just the way they are.:ok:

I particularly like the radio panel set up - 'cause it were my idea. When I flew this particular Tiger Moth some decades ago the radio was by your right hip - it was still there early in the restoration...it sucked...now it don't.

[CHAIRMAN]

The tiger tacho was thoughtfully mounted at that angle by De Havilland so the tacho drive cable can exit the panel to the side of the cockpit (its attachment is directly on the bottom of the instrument) without lying across the pilots knee - and therefore avoiding the pilot matrimonial grief when he/she gets home with the dirty washing! Have another look at the pic (great shot Chimbu) and you'll see why.

Oh, and tinpis if you saw the rest of the aeroplane, you'll understand why it hasn't got a black dash - and i reckon thats part of the reason also that Chuckles can do 8 point hesitation rolls in it - surely couldn't be Chuckles skill entirely:D

[tinpis]

(Mutter)... dont 'spose its got a Sutton harness neither....

[sixtiesrelic]

That blue and yeller Tiger doesn't have the pan seat for Parachutes like the RVAC aircraft had either.
We all knew how many cushions to take out to our steed so we could see out.
I was a two and a half cushion man (boy) meself.
One beanstalk who learned how to put 'em on gently, sat on the cold aluminium pan.
If the slip needle was cactus ... didn't matter. You'd get a wind on one side of your face.
Gipsy Moths are better, because if you slip or skid hard left the wind is warmed by the exhaust pipe running down the side of the fuselage.
Twas a bugger in Melbourne in winter if you had a head-cold and needed to side slip hard. Snot poured outa your schnoz and covered ya goggles.
Wirelesses... We were before wirelesses. That's why Tigers were barred from secondary airports.
They put a wireless and battery in the locker of RVB but it kept failing (Tower got preeved at having to flash lights at it) , so we went onto Chippies which were real complicated big planes with an air ground switch and brakes and a five channel wireless that had channel A to E and you needed a little book to jot down the frequencies they were.
I noticed that it was in the early sixties after the Tigers disappeared and Chippies were IN that new instructors started sh*tting themselves about spins and then stalls and have instilled that fear into pilots.
Chippies were spearing in regularly because pilots weren’t pushing the stick forward. You needed more than twenty six pounds of force on it to move it in a spin.
We’d be pushing like buggery and kept going round and round till we looked down and saw where our fist was, then push harder and she’d stop turning.
That little continuation of spin in a Tiger was nothing compared to the one and a half the Chippies did when you were doing it right.
Every time we got in the training area above four thousand we'd do a spin for fun.
Can't handle them now.
Chuck took me up and I wasn't feelin good in a very short time as we tore up the sky.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I found this photo of a Thruxton Jackaroo - a 4-place Tiger - being flown here from the front seat......

It also has an increased Max Weight - up to 2181lbs from the standard 1825lbs. - same donk, but wider fuse/cabin by about 1 foot, to accommodate two side by side seats.
I guess this meant that the top wing was increased in span area by that 1 foot or so, and the bottom wing was 'standard'.

For those who flew them as 'croppies' - I wonder what was considered to be 'overloaded'..??

Interesting.:ok:

[tinpis]

...8 bags...

http://www.teara.govt.nz/files/p16556na.jpg

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thankyou 'Tin'....that's a great photo!

Whereabouts may I ask?

:ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

surely couldn't be Chuckles skill entirely

No...more down to persistance - and that wood panel dash:ok:

If you're who I think you're Chairman, you have seen the vid of the several failed attempts that preceded success.

I should edit it and stick it up actually - laugh? You'd **** yourselves:}

Sorry 'bout that sixtiesrelic:E

I enjoy spinning the Tiger...now...but I will admit to getting that 'clutched' feeling in pit of stomach while flying with Ronnie (me in front seat) 16 months or so ago when over the intercom comes "Hey Chuckles lets do a spin"

"Sure":ooh:

The last time I had spun an aeroplane was with a student in 1986 just before I went to PNG - and the stupid thing refused to recover with normal C150 technique - we recovered to level flight, after some very aggressive control inputs, about 500agl:eek: Seems there may have been a rigging 'issue' with the old POS.:suspect:

But Ronnie did a nice spin...then I did one...CURED!!!

Now I wanna get some foggles and go out and see if I can recover from a spin on the clocks - should be good for a giggle:ok:

[tinpis]

Griffo somewhere in Kiwiland . I really dont really remember how many bags but the ag load was about 550lbs, that would almost be the same as having Chuck in the front cockpit. :hmm:

[Centaurus]

I have a similar photo somewhere in my shed. It was VH-BUM which belonged to Air Farm Pty Ltd at Tamworth in the mid-Fifties. A few RAAF instructors including myself who were flying Tiger Moths and Wirraways at the RAAF No 1 BFTS Uranquinty NSW, saw an advertisement for crop dusting pilots with Air Farm. Minimum two weeks work at a time. We went there singly on two weeks leave so as to avoid suspicion from our Commanding Officer.

BUM had no fabric on the fuselage aft of the rear cockpit where the pilot sat. The P8 (P6?) compass was covered with super-phosphate dust which is why I got lost while climbing over the mountains north of Tamworth trying to find the crop duster strip near Guyra. Landed in a farmers field using real short landing technique and knocked on the door of the farm house to ask for directions.

Lady came out and said where is your car? Don't have a car sez me but have got an aeroplane over there in your field. No problem she said - take off and go about Yea -pointing in the general direction.. Not Yea as in Yea Victoria, but over about there (Yea).

Found the field and spent two weeks flying 8-10 hours a day and living in a caravan. You had to accept 500 lbs weight of super phosphate in the hopper (replaced the front seat) or you got the boot. On the very first trip dropping this stuff from 200 ft needed full throttle in cruise (density altitude Guyra around 5000 ft) and I forgot to shut the hopper door.

Landed next to the loader - he poured the super-phosphate into the hopper only to have it go right through to the ground nearly lifting the Tiger off its wheels. Bloody embarrassing mistake from seemingly hot-shot RAAF flying instructor. The farmer went off his rocker and I had to climb out of the Tiger and he made me shovel the bloody stuff back into the hopper - then Iroared off for another drop. Not allowed to log the flights in the RAAF log book otherwise the CO would find out.

One of the RAAF pilots broke his ankle playing football back at the RAAF base and was given a month's sick leave. He decided to go crop-dusting without telling anyone and silly bugger broke his other ankle in a minor prang in the crop-duster Tiger. He got back to base hobbling like you have never seen.

The CO found out and threatened to court martial anyone one else that went crop dusting. Made good money at the time, though and finished my crop dusting carer with around 120 hours of Tiger time which was separate from the other 600 hours RAAF Tiger time. Ah! the things you do when you are young and stupid like me.

[India Four Two]

I've only just seen this interesting thread.

Possibly an AVRO 504 fitted with the Le Rhone engine.That is certainly the only interpretation that makes sense.

The "Avro Mono" in the next line is not a reference to a monoplane, but to a 504 fitted with a Gnome Monosoupape (single valve) rotary. The Gnome had a single pushrod-operated exhaust valve in the cylinder head. The charge was introduced into the cylinder via transfer ports similar to those in a two-stroke engine. The Oberursel rotaries built in Germany were copies of Gnomes.

The Le Rhône had conventional inlet and exhaust valves, but again operated by a single "push-pull" rod and a single rocker arm, which contacted both valves. The charge was routed to the inlet valve from the crankcase via a polished copper pipe.

The listing of both types of Avro 504 would be because the engines had different handling procedures.

The third aircraft, "Sop. Scout" probably refers to the single-seat Sopwith Scout, better known as the Sopwith Pup. Most Pups were fitted with Le Rhônes.

The other two rotary types, the Clerget and the Bentley, had more conventional valve arrangements with two pushrods.

You guys might be surprised how good the 'Blind Flying Panel' of that era was.Chimbu,

A nice picture of your Tiger panel, but nothing like any WWI panel. There were no blind-flying instruments. Here's a picture of the Shuttleworth 504K:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/Screenshot2011-03-07at223806.png

I suspect that the comment "Confident and reliable in clouds" refers to cloudy weather, rather than flying in IMC.

When I did an Instrument Rating in a 172 in Canada in the 80s, one of the exercises that my instructor insisted on was spinning under the hood and recovering using the Turn Coordinator. A very useful exercise and I had a lot of fun thermalling up on instruments to repeat the exercise.

There was a reference in one of the posts to the short life-expectancy of WWI pilots. Both my grandfathers were pilots in the RNAS and luckily for me, survived. One flew Camels in France and was shot down and spent the remainder of the war as a POW. The other hadn't finished training by the time the war ended, but surviving that was an achievement in itself. Nearly half of his Cadet class that graduated at Greenwich were killed in training.

[tinpis]

I've flown GA planes with less working kit than that Sopwith :hmm:

[bankrunner]

Same here, tinpis. A PA31 in my case :E

[tinpis]

Another excellent website for Tiggys


Wings Over New Zealand - The Tiger Stash (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=civil&action=display&thread=12689)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/the_hairy_dwarf/20-07-045.jpg

Typical Aero Club beat up:rolleyes:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/the_hairy_dwarf/neg-01-11-08-087.jpg

Workers under the influence of dope :}

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/the_hairy_dwarf/1081.jpg