Changes at Marham and Lossie

[Descend to What Height?!?]

I hear reports of losing Sqns at both Lossie and Marham.

Any one confirm?

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::sad::(:(:(:(

[XV277]

13 and 14, confirmed on the MOD website

[On_Loan]

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Defence Policy and Business | Tornado squadrons to be disbanded (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/TornadoSquadronsToBeDisbanded.htm)

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Sad News

:sad::sad:

[NDW]

If I may say - the government have messed out Armed Forces up big style. :mad:

[Jackonicko]

14???

14!!!!

Someone needs a history lesson. 14 go while IX, 12 and 31 continue?

A travesty.

[mark25787]

What will happen to the 24 GR4/4A aircraft? Will they been reallocated to the remaining squadrons or will they be "Nimrod-ed"?
Hope all the personnel affected by this are treated decently.

[Finningley Boy]

[quote][/
What will happen to the 24 GR4/4A aircraft? Will they been reallocated to the remaining squadrons or will they be "Nimrod-ed"?
QUOTE]

Its cuts boy cuts, yes of course, they'll be put to S-L-E-E-P.:{

But on a historic and tradition not, it should be 14 and 31 by rights.

They're the most junior save 617, which retains special status!

You know Daaa daa da daa da da daa daaaa!:ok:

FB:)

[howiehowie93]

Phew saved again -- up the Bats !!!

shame about Crusader & The Stabbed Cats though.

[30mRad]

Jackonicko

14???

14!!!!

Someone needs a history lesson. 14 go while IX, 12 and 31 continue?

If you look at who has returned from Afghanistan most recently, then it was not hard to predict 14 and XIII. Heartbroken as I am over 14 :{, it makes sense in the harmony of deployments and work-ups to lose those 2 sqns.

To all those (air and ground crew) on both XIII and 14 Sqns take strength in knowing what a fantastic job you all did in Afghanistan - you will have saved lives :ok:. I have such fond memories of 14 Sqn.

On a slightly lighter note, does the JN (sorry JWSO) have to keep Eric now the Sqn is going to be disbanded?! :eek:

[Navy_Adversary]

Every day we seem to get depressing news, I thought that I would look at the International Air Tatoo web site to see what aircraft are left to particpate in this years show.

I know it's early days but there's the Sparrows and that's it.

Very best wishes to you Tonka boys, I still miss your low level flights through Leicestershire.

[just another jocky]

Sad, but not unexpected news. 2 great tours on XIII.

Any word as to whether those currently manning XIII Sqn will actually be posted or will the 12 or 617 nameplate move down to replace the XIII Sqn one? That's assuming the status quo is 4 sqns at Marham.

[Green Flash]

With 14 Sqn going (funny old thing, they have just had their hanger overhauled - they can open all the doors now!) does that mean that a Phoon sqn moves up to Lossie and it's endex Leuchars?

Oh heck, I forgot about Eric! Surely he can't be made redundant as well? Travesty.

[Ivor Fynn]

Maybe Sqn Ldr Eric Courtney Aldrovandi should be turned into a set of cowboy boots and sent to Dave Cameron!!

Ivor:E

[Talk Reaction]

Ivor, thanks for the first good laugh of a dark day!!

Maybe send Eric to Dave bypassing the turning into boots stage, after not feeding him for a while ;)

[Fintastic]

But at least our leaders haven't committed us to another overseas deployment with no obvious end..........

Very sad for the members of 13 & 14 Sqns, I hope you all are looked after.

A little piece of me is glad 12(B) survived though...

[Griz]

Hey Ivor

Maybe you could give Eric a good home, he probably remembers you!

[whowhenwhy]

Was under the impression that, as sad as this is, this loss is number plates only and not air frames or aircrew - they're being re-distributed. Hope that my gen is not wrong.

[philip.snow]

Gentlemen / Ladies - this is the start of the end. Although in the short-term no real difference manpower. We have now lost all ADAPTABILITY, AGILITY and CAPABILITY - fact, question only if you know better!

[philip.snow]

When the RAF was formed the first seven given RAF status were 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 14 - fact! Therefore an original sqn. As for tornado, 14 is the second most senior behind ii(ac) - fact. The only reason why 14 has gone and not 12 is that they are busy at the moment - fact. Finningley boy a simple google search will give you all this. I hope you will do some research before you comment - it took me no more than 2 min

[Rigga]

If numbers were so important 1, 3, 4, 6, 8 & 11 would still be about - get over the number thing.

[glad rag]

^^^"whatever" ^^^ this whole freaking deal really sucks.:sad:

[Finningley Boy]

When the RAF was formed the first seven given RAF status were 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 14 - fact! Therefore an original sqn. As for tornado, 14 is the second most senior behind ii(ac) - fact. The only reason why 14 has gone and not 12 is that they are busy at the moment - fact. Finningley boy a simple google search will give you all this. I hope you will do some research before you comment - it took me no more than 2 min


Philip, you strike me as the kind of light weight who gets a lot of what he thinks he knows straight off the internet. You couldn't for one second, though, point out where I supported the disbandment of 14 sqn. I did question why 13 and not 31. But off the cuff, one can always overlook a simple explanation. I suggest you climb back down off your high hobby horse and place you remarks in a more enlightening context, rather than lash out with something you've just picked up!:=

FB:)

[Easy Street]

Finningley Boy,


You couldn't for one second, though, point out where I supported the disbandment of 14 sqn. I did question why 13 and not 31.


I can - here:


But on a historic and tradition not, it should be 14 and 31 by rights. They're the most junior save 617, which retains special status!


Philip.snow may have got his facts off the internet, but the internet is right in this instance... it sounds like this decision's down to timing and a political sensitivity about disbanding deployed units. Perhaps the history books will record the manoeuvring for others to tut over in future?

[SRENNAPS]

As an ex Crusader I am absolutely gutted:(

But, it would have been just as gutting for anybody who is serving, or has served, on any Tornado GR Sqn (over the last 25 odd years) chosen for the chop. My heart also goes out to all those who have been a part of 13 Sqn. These are very sad times, which I really wish I did not have to witness.

However, the memories, the photographs, the videos, the experiences, the happy times, the good times, the sad times, the very sad times, the scary times, the very scary times, the emotional times, the angry times, the frustrating times, the hot times, the cold times, the wet times, the hard work times, the slack times, the busy times, the boring times, the anxious times, the lonely times, the nervous times, the apprehensive times, the exciting times, the fun times, the exhilarating times and finally the extremely proud times, will never be forgotten by me as long as I live.

I am proud and privileged to have had the honour to have served on three Tornado Sqns over the years, but 14 will always have a very special place in my heart.

RA! RA! Crusaders.

P. S. I am sure that my two daughters (now 27 and 24) would be quite happy to adopt Eric who has spent many a time in their arms.

[60024]

<<I am sure that my two daughters (now 27 and 24) would be quite happy to adopt Eric who has spent many a time in their arms.>>

I hear Eric's getting grumpier as he gets older. Also, have you seen the size of the beast recently.........:eek:

[just another jocky]

On a positive note (if there can be any), at least both sqn numbers will be available to move over to F-35.

Rigga......don't be an arse! Sqn numbers are to the RAF what Regimental names are to the Army. :=

[30mRad]

SRENNAPS

Bloody well said :ok: You summarised life on 14 Sqn (but as you say could be any sqn) spot on!

[Wrathmonk]

If numbers were so important 1, 3, 4, 6, 8 & 11 would still be about - get over the number thing.

Rigga

Am I missing something here :

3 Sqn - Typhoon Squadron (http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/3squadron.cfm), Coningsby
6 Sqn - Typhoon Squadron (http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/6squadron.cfm), Leuchars
8 Sqn - E3D Squadron (http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/8squadron.cfm), Waddo
11 Sqn - Typhoon Squadron (http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/11squadron.cfm), Coningsby

I admit I have taken this from the RAF website and we know how accurate that has been of late (although it does show 1(F) and IV(AC) as recently disbanded:( but I'm fairly certain that they will soon be standing up again .... albeit not as a GR9 outfit:E)

[xray one]

Sad news indeed. I had 2 great tours on Xiii...looking forward to meeting old friends at the farewell p*ss up...

[Finningley Boy]

:)
Finningley Boy,

Quote:
You couldn't for one second, though, point out where I supported the disbandment of 14 sqn. I did question why 13 and not 31.
I can - here:

Quote:
But on a historic and tradition not, it should be 14 and 31 by rights. They're the most junior save 617, which retains special status!
Philip.snow may have got his facts off the internet, but the internet is right in this instance... it sounds like this decision's down to timing and a political sensitivity about disbanding deployed units. Perhaps the history books will record the manoeuvring for others to tut over in future?


Its not something I support Easystreet just voicing my understanding of the protocol for disbanding squadrons. If Philip has found out a snippet off the internet that 14 squadron are an older squadron than 12, for example, he must be missing something else, as they have been chosen to disband. But in anycase, my point is merely an observation, not something I'm going to fight to the death over as some article of faith. However, it was Philip's manner of bringing his point to light, which I'll gladly accept, which I'll admit drew my hasty response. I just don't understand the rather disturbed and overtly defensive manner in which he chose to express his new found knowledge.:ugh:

FB

[XV277]

Any word as to whether those currently manning XIII Sqn will actually be posted or will the 12 or 617 nameplate move down to replace the XIII Sqn one? That's assuming the status quo is 4 sqns at Marham.

And therein lies the great political question - which will not be answered until after the Scottish Parliament elections for fear of giving Labour and/or the SNP a boost against the Liberals in Moray and North East Fife.

As for seniority, there was a precedent, albeit not recently, for Squadrons re-numbering on disbandment of a more senior squadron to preserve the identity of the more senior unit. BUt I think they stopped that in the mid 60s.

[Sgt.Slabber]

It don't matter a fcuk which two Tornado GR squadrons are going - come June 2 this year there will be two less than "we" have now :mad: :mad:

...and six less than "we" need now :oh:

[just another jocky]

It don't matter a fcuk which two Tornado GR squadrons are going - come June 2 this year there will be two less than "we" have now http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

...and six less than "we" need now :oh:

I suspect it matters to both the current and past members of those 2 sqns. But I do get your point.

[pr00ne]

Sgt.Slabber.

Er, just WHY do we need eleven Tornado GR4 squadrons now? To sustain a force of 8 jets in Afghanistan?

11 Sqns is the total of the force at the height of the Cold war. What would you do now with eleven squadrons of the things?

[jamier]

As a current crusader it wasnt nice but as soon as we were told there was a briefing with the station commander we knew our time was up.

Not sure whats going to happen to Eric but im sure we will sort out a good home for him :-)

And we will let all past crusaders know when the hanger bash is :)

'Once a Crusader, Always a Crusader'

[dctyke]

JAJ.

On a positive note (if there can be any), at least both sqn numbers will be available to move over to F-35.

Available maybe, however I fear a lot of recently disbanded sqns will never see the light of day again in a 'proper role'. A long queue is forming for the number plates on F-35 sqns!

[just another jocky]

Available maybe, however I fear a lot of recently disbanded sqns will never see the light of day again in a 'proper role'. A long queue is forming for the number plates on F-35 sqns!

True, but then those training sqns that currently hold reserve status that are less senior could be changed to the more senior ones. That is if we have any training sqns left. :(

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

As for seniority, there was a precedent, albeit not recently, for Squadrons re-numbering on disbandment of a more senior squadron to preserve the identity of the more senior unit. BUt I think they stopped that in the mid 60s.

Not that this is of any significance compared to the main issue of the thread, but I think this has happened more recently than the 60s eg 27 Sqn renumbering as 12 Sqn in 1993.

[Pheasant]

A long queue is forming for the number plates on F-35 sqns!

800, 801, 892, 899.....

[XV277]

Not that this is of any significance compared to the main issue of the thread, but I think this has happened more recently than the 60s eg 27 Sqn renumbering as 12 Sqn in 1993.

That appears to be one that vexes those who research the minutiae of these things - did 27 disband at 2359hrs and 12 reform at 0000hrs or was it a continuous existence with just a change of number?

[Finningley Boy]

Sgt.Slabber.

Er, just WHY do we need eleven Tornado GR4 squadrons now? To sustain a force of 8 jets in Afghanistan?

11 Sqns is the total of the force at the height of the Cold war. What would you do now with eleven squadrons of the things?


Bigger better airshows! And lots more of 'em. Do think a little more Mr pr00ne.:ok:

FB:)

[Spurlash2]

Taken from a signal released some years ago explaining the rationale behind sqn numbering.

...they took into account a number of considerations. First, the principle of seniority should apply in the allocation of numberplates. However, there should be no general attempt to re-number in service squadrons to keep the most historically senior numberplates in service. Thus, a squadron which is not subject to any change of role, type or location should retain its current numberplate. It was also agreed that priority should be given to the re-allocation of live numberplates of squadrons with a particular significant or distinguished war record. Finally, note should be taken of squadron historical association with a particular role. Against this background, the ...

There then follows detail of some renumbering.

Does that help anyone?

[Corporal Clott]

I reckon we'll see the return of 1 Sqn before long as it is 100 years old in 2012...:ok:

[60024]

Why? Are we buying more balloons? :E

[Rigga]

...More UAVs then.

[A2QFI]

II(AC) Sqn is also hoping to survive until April 2012 to its own 100th!

[bobward]

It doesn't look as if those criteria were applied when 6 Sqn were closed down when the Jaguar departed a couple of years ago.

Weren't they were the only squadron that had, till then, never been disbanded?

Another tradition discarded.....:sad:

[Rigga]

Quite obviously, now, it seems that I never got the ‘squadron’ thing nor did I ever get the ‘tradition’ thing either. As for the equation of squadrons being similar to regiments – that merely emphasises the navy’s accusation of RAF bad habits rather than traditions.

On none of the several squadrons I worked on did I ever get the feeling of history or tradition, of binding into a brotherhood or even bond with the winged warriors, most of whom remained cocooned in their crewroom’s or special little hidey-holes on exercises.

Though I did enjoy detachments/exercises and inter-squadron banter and beers, it was because of my mates and colleagues on other squadrons.

To most RAF techies “squadrons” are just another place of work; a handy title for another hangar; an area of the camp where some more mates worked; or where I had to go to do something.

Even as a ‘bit of a spotter’, not once in 24 years did anyone that I knew prattle on about a history or tradition to do with a particular squadron except to say that in 19-hundred-and-blasted–to-death something stupid happened or the ruddy crew flew off and left their ‘support’ behind, again.

Not once in that time did I even think of visiting or even finding a squadron (or station) history room/museum.

The recent trend of rejecting techies as part of ‘squadrons’ emphasises yet more of the great divide between the strata of military life and its so-called tradition. Rejecting the lower ranks of “Squadrons” is like not having squaddies in “regiments”. So much for that equation.

It takes more than a few artefacts to make a squadron, and a good squadron is only a good squadron because of the personnel on it, of all types and trades, those that make it tick.

If you rely on history you will hardly ever make it.

The people I worked with made history, not the squadrons we were on. The squadron’s just got a band on a flag.

You should worry about people and aircraft, not numbers.
Rigga

[minigundiplomat]

Not once in that time did I even think of visiting or even finding a squadron (or station) history room/museum.




A shame for both you, and the Sqn.

The recent trend of rejecting techies as part of ‘squadrons’ emphasises yet more of the great divide between the strata of military life and its so-called tradition. Rejecting the lower ranks of “Squadrons” is like not having squaddies in “regiments”. So much for that equation.


I can only speak for Odiham, but it is not a rejection by the aircrew, we loved our groundcrew. It was a cost saving measure from above, and has reduced capability.

a good squadron is only a good squadron because of the personnel

Spot on.


You should worry about people and aircraft, not numbers.



Sadly, numbers are important to the accountants who run the RAF these days - they know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

I know you meant Sqn No's, but i'm with you in spirit. It should be the people who are important, and it quite blatantly isn't these days.

[just another jocky]

Quite obviously, now, it seems that I never got the ‘squadron’ thing nor did I ever get the ‘tradition’ thing either. As for the equation of squadrons being similar to regiments – that merely emphasises the navy’s accusation of RAF bad habits rather than traditions.



On none of the several squadrons I worked on did I ever get the feeling of history or tradition, of binding into a brotherhood or even bond with the winged warriors, most of whom remained cocooned in their crewroom’s or special little hidey-holes on exercises.



Clearly you didn't. Does that mean it wasn't there, you weren't aware of it or you chose to ignore it? And your "bad habits" quote merely emphasises your ignorance.

Well said miningund...

[F3sRBest]

Rigga,

To most RAF techies “squadrons” are just another place of work; a handy title for another hangar; an area of the camp where some more mates worked; or where I had to go to do something.

You were obviously never on any of the same Sqns I was :)

[downsizer]

Maybe he was the squadron c0ck :ok:

[Willard Whyte]

Well, I've served on many squadron's with a long and glorious history, with battle honours and which have lost brave individuals and crews.

Sadly none of this really mattered if the boss or anyone else I worked for/with was a total to55er.

Nor did the camaraderie depend on historical events.

So, whilst I believe that celebrating past glories and honouring those who served and paid the ultimate sacrifice is a very worthy activity, I do not believe that those events took place because of the badge they wore on their sleeve or on the side of their aircraft. Rigga is (partially) right: a squadron really is only as good as the people working there at that point in time.

[FlapJackMuncher]

Arguably 617 sqn are the safest Tornado sqadron.
If you need to face the voters the Dambusters are the only one they have heard of.
Everyone else is just a number.

[John Blakeley]

From today's MOD Contracts Bulletin - the future or a case of left and right hand - or perhaps its Leuchars vs Lossie?

Date: 08-MAR-11
Title: GB-RAF LOSSIEMOUTH: CONSTRUCTION WORK FOR MILITARY BUILDINGS AND INSTALLATIONS.
Country: GB

Type of document: Contract Notice
Country: United Kingdom

GB-RAF Lossiemouth: Construction work for military buildings and installations.

Section I: Contracting Authority

Title: GB-RAF Lossiemouth: Construction work for military buildings and installations.
I.1)Name, Addresses And Contact Point(s)

Defence Estates, DE
Estate Management Scotland, Building 1057, , RAF Lossiemouth, IV31 6SD, United Kingdom

I.2)Type Of Purchasing Body
Contracting authority

Section II: Object Of The Contract
II.1)Description
II.1.1)Title attributed to the contract by the contracting authority/entity: Provision of Air Traffic Control (ATC) Tower - RAF Lossiemouth
II.1.2)Short description of the contract or purchase:
Construction work for military buildings and installations. Design and construction project for delivery of a new Air Traffic Control (ATC) Tower, with supporting office accommodation facilities for ATC, Ground Radio Section, Engineering and Meteorological teams, their equipments and a ground floor vehicle parking / equipment workshop for MoD Ground Support staff. The works include all associated internal and external infrastructure, with the exception of MoD IT / communications installation. In addition, the existing ATC Tower building is to be demolished. The timing of these demolition works will be approximately 4-months following completion / handover of the new ATC Tower and accommodation facility.

JB

[glad rag]

Well, I've served on many squadron's with a long and glorious history, with battle honours and which have lost brave individuals and crews.

Sadly none of this really mattered if the boss or anyone else I worked for/with was a total to55er.

Nor did the camaraderie depend on historical events.

So, whilst I believe that celebrating past glories and honouring those who served and paid the ultimate sacrifice is a very worthy activity, I do not believe that those events took place because of the badge they wore on their sleeve or on the side of their aircraft. Rigga is (partially) right: a squadron really is only as good as the people working there at that point in time. 4th Mar 2011 11:20

Good summation. In my experience, the last years of the FG1 saw the workload massively increase, but the craik on the ground was the best I have ever experienced. More to that it was a brilliant mix of personalities [and some real misfits] that made it. Everyone pulled together and no one was willing to let the side down, driven by the respective shift FS's-real LEADERS.

Then there were the aircrew, now that WAS a diverse mix..............................

[F3sRBest]

JB,

Read the full thing.. at the bottom it says 'work discontinued'!

[airpolice]

A shame they can't move the one they built at Linton last year.

[SRENNAPS]

To most RAF techies “squadrons” are just another place of work; a handy title for another hangar; an area of the camp where some more mates worked; or where I had to go to do something.

No disrespect to anybody serving on UK Sqns, but in my experience I would say that Rigga’s statement is more applicable to UK Sqns rather than the Sqns that used to be based in Germany.

Germany was more of a way of life than just another job. That way of life produced a special pride, that to be honest I did not see when serving on UK Sqns.

I always said that when they closed RAF Bruggen (the last operational flying station in Germany) the RAF lost more than a station; it lost a culture and a way of life that could never be replaced.

But the pride sticks forever. I know for a fact that the support from ex Germany “RAF techies” for Sqns such as the Crusaders and the Goldstars is still immense!

Just my opinion so please no offence intended to anybody serving on any UK based sqn

[just another jocky]

I served both at Bruggen (2 tours), Lossie (1 tour) and Marham (++ tours) and can't say I saw any difference, other than the lifestyle in Germany led to a few more parties etc.

I guess it depends, as someone said earlier, on the personalities at the time.

[SRENNAPS]

You must have been on the wrong Sqn(s):sad::E:rolleyes:

[just another jocky]

Perhaps I didn't put that quite right. I had a great time on all the sqns, mucho pride in the history and good mates, but it didn't seem to matter whether that was UK or Germany based (the parties in Germany were usually better, with one exception: a certain East Anglian Happy Hour at Wattisham :yuk:).

[Rigga]

Likewise, three tours at Laarbruch, one at Bruggen and one at Gutersloh. Only the social life changed, not the work.

I also did 15 years on heli's and 11 on jets at all levels of maintenance.

And if there was ever a 'drop' in standards it was often due to Tornado "type casts" (those who'd never worked on anything else). They were often long-serving sqn personnel who thought they were the best but never really produced good standards - they just did some box-changing and got something to fly tomorrow, but not likely to fly for long after that. What I used to call a "First Wave Wonder" or what was once known as "War Go-ers" - not expected to return.

[John Blakeley]

F3sRBest,

Thank you for pointing out my incomplete quote and apologies for the error - funny place to put the important information though! I note that in this case "discontinued" does not mean "cancelled" and the entry goes on to say the work may be re-advertised. So I guess that means all options remain very much open despite rumours down here in Norfolk!

JB

[30AB-JK]

Rigga

What I used to call a "First Wave Wonder" or what was once known as "War Go-ers" - not expected to return.

Not heard that one for a long time, but I do remember it being said at a N Lincs Airbase, even on our shiney one's - well before the advent of the FSBA Squadron's at EGYM.

As for standards, now days we like to say ''Get it out of town'' DDPG/MEL Approved like on T*.

[SRENNAPS]

And if there was ever a 'drop' in standards it was often due to Tornado "type casts" (those who'd never worked on anything else). They were often long-serving sqn personnel who thought they were the best but never really produced good standards - they just did some box-changing and got something to fly tomorrow, but not likely to fly for long after that

Rigga, you should not talk about the fairies like that, they did try their best, honest:E:E

Seriously though, sadly there is an element of truth in what you say.
I think it was a mixture of bad habits and corner cutting emphasised by low morale and general apathy from a certain corner of the Tornado world (in the early days) that somehow seemed to spread to the other areas of the Tornado world. I had a 5 year gap in my Tornado years and when I returned I was amazed (and bloody annoyed) at the drop in standards. A lot of it was due to a lack of in-depth knowledge of the jet, because as you say, a lot of them had spent their entire lives on Sqns and not been taught any different. :(:(

[glad rag]

think it was a mixture of bad habits and corner cutting emphasised by low morale and general apathy from a certain corner of the Tornado world (in the early days)Ah yes Rects Sqn TTTE. One brill shift, one carp one. Thank F I "only" did 6 months there before heading to Laarpads for a brilliant but hard worked tour.:ok::ok::ok:

Work hard-Play hard

[SRENNAPS]

before heading to Laarpads for a brilliant but hard worked tour..................picking up twigs:E:E

[Gaz ED]

16 Squadron - glorious!

[typerated]

When is a decision expected to be announced on the future of Marham, Lossie, Leuchars? I had assumed it would be announced before the 2 GR4 Sqns got the boot.

[jamier]

after the local elections on may 5th!

[typerated]

So there isn't even a date yet?