Is Pm Cameron Delusional?

[DERG]

He wants to enforce a no fly zone over Libya?
With the RAF as it stands in the face of depletion?
This man is for the funny farm.

[Wyler]

I understand the Americans are repositioning large elements of their forces into that area. We will send a Fg Off IntO and a Chef.

[philrigger]

;)

Where is the Chef going to come from ?

[Fatnfast]

The chef will be sourced from the private sector. Gordon Ramsay always seems to be up for a scrap ! :)

[startermotor]

Also, one PTI, just in case their fitness test becomes due.

[reacher]

What about the OH&S rep?

[airborne_artist]

Also, one PTI, just in case their fitness test becomes due.

Make that two. New regs mean that a PTI can not take her/her own fitness test :D

[Grabbers]

Don't forget a Mediator and a E & D rep.

[Evanelpus]

Where is the Chef going to come from ?

Send in Steven Segal, he'll get it sorted!

[Biggus]

You'll need at least one admin trade to sort out the JPA nightmare which will ensue.....

[Winchweight]

Dillusional?

He launched a PR coup with aeroplanes which are scheduled to be scrapped earlier than planned, flown from a base due to be closed this year, by crews who are waiting for possible redundancy notices.

They were also supported by ships which were returning to base to be scrapped and their crews are waiting for possible notices of redundancy.

Now he want to police a No Fly zone with aircraft which may soon be scrapped, flown by crews who are waiting on possible redundancy notices, from UK bases which may possibly be closed soon.

They can be supported by the few soldiers who can be spared from guarding prisons in the UK, that's if they're not made redundant first.

Well done Dave, if you can get any plaudits from that mess you've done well. Dillusional? No, two faced? Well then that's something else entirely......

[Tankertrashnav]

Can we not adopt the American habit of calling him Prime Minister Cameron, please? He's Mr Cameron, Cameron, Dave or whatever. Mind you "premeer" Cameron would be worse, and I've heard that.

[goudie]

Couldn't we send in the Red Arrows?

[ACW599]

I've heard from a very highly placed source that two VGS Vikings will be sent as a show of force.

[Wyler]

The MOD will also need to commission a glossy pamphlet detailing disabled access to Libya.

[N707ZS]

Vikings, can the air cadet crews get parential permission to go on a field trip.

[DERG]

He's Mr Cameron...
not in my book best title for him is "master"
Buzz Lightyear applies too.

[NUFC1892]

Trim Stab :bored: will be here in a moment offering his services (so long as we advance the landing fees), do be nice to him children. :rolleyes:

[NutLoose]

Can we not dress up a dozen or so AVM's. several Rear Admirals, and a few Brigadier Generals in their finest with all their gold braid and medals.......
Whitehall must have dozens of them in storage for just this sort of operation, then drop them off just outside Tripoli.....
It has been long noted that many an African state are always impressed with their leaders wearing more decorations on their uniform than a Pearly king and follow them without question..... a few 5th columnists from MOD will soon turn the situation....Job done.

[goudie]

Why not invite Mad Daffy to 'The Wedding', as a token of goodwill? He'd love to see his old pals Blair and Mandleson again. If he brings his son they could make a foursome!

[Wyler]

To be honest I don't think he has a choice on this one. We get 85% of Libya's oil. If the Americans, our staunch allies (:}) go in solo they will keep the spoils for themselves. That would screw us. So, he has to play tough and commit Forces.
Interesting that it comes at the same time as his Government will announce the framework for 5000 RAF redundancies. He might now realise that you actually need a Navy and Air Force and not just 'boots on the ground'. We live in hope.
More annoying however, are the MOD sychophants who are saying that it can all be done.

[mark25787]

Harriers from an aircraft carrier stationed in the Med would be good for this....OOPS!!! :\

[f4aviation]

I've heard that 16(R) Squadron is on alert for deployment.

[4fitter]

I'm not sure that respondents are taking this seriously.

[Whenurhappy]

BBMF? After all, the Hurri-bomber did a good job in North Africa in the past...

[GK430]

Weren't the U.S. already there a long time ago? Looking at the mil ramp at Gandabya A.B. south of Sirt on the old Google Earth you have to wonder!!

[DERG]

"I'm not sure that respondents are taking this seriously."

Genuinely think he has no concept about anything much apart fom himself.
Whatever happens this will just push up the fuel price at the pumps.

[November4]

Maybe the delusional ones are CDS / CAS etc who didn't say "not a chance after you cut the forces too far"?

[DERG]

November4

Right on the nail...YES

[Rigger92]

C'mon November4, CDS & CAS have had THEIR military career, we shouldn't expect them to jeopardize THEIR future within the political elite circles buy engaging in a little moral courage :ugh:

[DERG]

The French airforce have trained the last 60 years in these parts..where the F:mad:K are they...???

[Runaway Gun]

From the Daily Mail:

"Britain's involvement in Afghanistan would severely stretch our ability to send ground forces into Libya, but it could be achieved, military sources said last night."

and

"MOD sources played down accusations that the possible no-fly zone highlighted the folly of scrapping the HMS Ark Royal aircraft carrier...."

and

"..the Harrier jets - which are bombers rather than fighters - would have been ineffective against Libyan Jets as an air-to-air threat."

:eek:

[mark25787]

"..the Harrier jets - which are bombers rather than fighters - would have been ineffective against Libyan Jets as an air-to-air threat."

Yeah - they were useless in the Falklands, weren't they. :mad:

[TwoStep]

Yeah - they were useless in the Falklands, weren't they. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

Me thinks one doesn't know the difference between SHARs and Crab Harriers...:ugh:

[LookingNorth]

I would suggest if all these Typhoons at Coningsby and further north are not capable of policing a NFZ then what the hell is the point of having them? Chop the lot and spend the money on biscuits, or quit moaning and use the damn things.

[The Old Fat One]

Me thinks one doesn't know the difference between SHARs and Crab Harriers...:ugh:


Methinks one doesn't know the difference between irony and opinion...:ugh:

Top thread pruners by the way...needs a witty (witty as in not serious) Nimrod input though.

[mark25787]

Both can be armed with AIM-9's. Surely that makes them valid for Air-to-Air combat?

[Wrathmonk]

Both can be armed with AIM-9's. Surely that makes them valid for Air-to-Air combat

Wasn't the Nimrod armed with the AIM9 ......

And the Jaguar.

Mistakes, mistakes and more mistakes! When will the MOD ever learn and stop cutting these vital AD assets!

[philrigger]

;)

Top thread pruners by the way...needs a witty (witty as in not serious) Nimrod input though.


Both can be armed with AIM-9's. Surely that makes them valid for Air-to-Air combat?

Put the AIM-9s on the a Nimrod.

[NutLoose]

Needs a witty (witty as in not serious) Nimrod input though.


Ermmm....... any good?

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/Aviation/nimrod.jpg

Nimrod readied to assist troops on the ground in Libya if needed as RAF ground liason officers caravan..

(P.S she may be for sale)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Kipper fleet and the fish 'eads in one pass, top bombing :p

[DERG]

The last time U.S. AF top brass diplomatics flew over here they had GERMAN ground sweep helicopters about 3 mins ahead of them. 75 feet above the roof top...manned machine guns..just like F:mad:G 1977 VietNam.

Can someone tell me WHY the UK is always doing the hard stuff and the rest of the EUR gets the easy stuff?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Because you are the slaves of your masters, the USA :p

Who would probably only screw it up if they did it themselves :E:E:E

[DERG]

C in C of Nato agreed. But how come the French do not help us here where they have so much experience?

[green granite]

ut how come the French do not help us here where they have so much experience?

They have more sense.

[AR1]

Daves office Number 10 - The phone rings.

Voice: Dave, Dave are you there mate?

PM: Yah who is it?

Voice: Billy, Billy Hague..

PM: Who?

Voice: Billy Hague....Your ForSec dumbo..

PM: Oh yah, yah, hold on, let me just turn down the Jams 'Eton Rifles'.... That's better. Sup up your real ale and collect your old public school fags -What's the score Billy?

Hague: well we've been outflanked by the Hun and the Garlic munchers old boy, and we need to do something pronto.

PM: Something eh? - What about the Royal Wedding?

Hague: No Dave, this is no recession, its Libya, serious stuff. ITN news made us look stupid last night.

PM: ITN made US look stupid?? - That's saying something Billy. So what do we do?

Hague: Well I think we've still got an Air-force, so lets send them in and be the heroes - paying the landing fees, obviously, we don't want to offend anyone, but what we need is a no fly zone.

PM: Well I'm in the process of making them all redundant, they wont be flying then will they?

Hague: Fair enough Dave, fair enough...click.



Cue music....
"......what a catalyst you turned out to be - loaded the guns then you run off home for your tea..."

[Whenurhappy]

Great song...I prefer 'That's entertainment'. I used to see all the activity described in that song on my commute to and from Main Building to my East end pad.

[wiggy]

But how come the French do not help us here where they have so much experience?

Who says they aren't?

According to Le Figaro they operated two "humanitarian" Flights into Benghazi yesterday, and the French are just as involved as, say, the Brits in the diplomacy and planning surrounding the setting up of a No-Fly zone.

[DERG]

Public School pricks f :mad:k f:mad:tts

Thos Mirages they have a very sharp tools..that whats we need.

[autothrottle]

Genious, AR1, absolute genious!

"A" Bomb on Wardour Street, my Jam favourite.

[Winchweight]

There’s a line missing though….

Billy – have you seen Cleggy this weekend?

Dave – who?

Billy – Cleggy, your deputy!

Dave – nah, haven’t seen him all week. Off playing rugger or on his hols treating his kiddies to jelly and ice cream I think.

Billy – mmmm jelly….

[Blacksheep]

Of course, it may be that Dave is trying to save what's left of the Air Force by committing it to a task that proves we need it. The defence cuts have gone in so deep because thats what the pinko, tree hugging Lib-Dems want, to preserve as many of their Guardian readers' non-jobs as possible.

But what would I know, I'm just a civilian party activist... ;)

[peter272]

Yeh, right.....:mad:

[Boslandew]

I've been out of the military loop for a lot of years so I have no current knowledge of how things work.

Sarcasm aside for a moment, an NFZ could be imposed by a force of Tornados/Typhoons?, AWACS and presumably some AAR support. From Malta its about 200nm to Tripoli, assuming Malta could be used. Assuming the political will was there - big question I know -and talking purely in practical terms, is Britain no longer capable of providing such a force? What would be the obstacles in the way of detaching the necessary number of suitable aircraft to carry out such duties?

[mark25787]

Sarcasm aside for a moment, an NFZ could be imposed by a force of Tornados/Typhoons?, AWACS and presumably some AAR support. From Malta its about 200nm to Tripoli, assuming Malta could be used. Assuming the political will was there - big question I know -and talking purely in practical terms, is Britain no longer capable of providing such a force? What would be the obstacles in the way of detaching the necessary number of suitable aircraft to carry out such duties?

Suggestion of basing Typhoons at RAF Akrotiri here. A fair transit time with an ~1000 mile distance. RAF Typhoons Could Enforce Libya No-Fly Zone - Yahoo! News UK (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20110301/tuk-raf-typhoons-could-enforce-libya-no-45dbed5.html)

[MATELO]

What would be the obstacles in the way of detaching the necessary number of suitable aircraft to carry out such duties?

Lack of aircraft
Lack of people
Lack of money

[oldgrubber]

As a helicopter mender type I have a couple of questions.
Firstly, where is the nearest “friendly” diversion for the Typhoons should they have a problem whilst on task? Secondly, how long can a Typhoon remain “on charge” to the aircrew before it has to be serviced? As you know we do things a little differently in the FAA with 25, 50, 75 hrlys etc, but there must come a time when it has to be pulled for maintenance.
With so much time spent getting to and from Libya from Akrotiri you are effectively “burning” aircraft serviceability just to arrive on task.
I won’t bleat on about the lack of carrier air, that horse has bolted!

Cheers

[mmitch]

An Innocent question. Would the RAF have enough tankers for Afgan, the Falklands and Libya?
mmitch.

[DERG]

"to preserve as many of their Guardian readers' non-jobs as possible"

[draken55]

In view of the fact that Russia, China and France are reported in the Telegraph as being against a NFZ everyone can now relax as it's not going to happen.

The issue will now be the despatch of humanitarian aid, something the powers in the area have plenty of aircraft and ships to deal with.

[Boslandew]

Mark25787/Oldgrubber

I had not really considered Akrotiri because of the distance. I can't believe that maintaining an NFZ 1000 miles from base is practical without an incredible level of support. Unless anyone knows better. I thought Malta or Corsica, (NATO), might be possible.

MATELO

I had thought to include money in 'political will'. In all seriousness, could we really not find, say, four/six aircraft and crews plus AWACS? The potential humanitarian situation ought to give it a high priority if we're serious about helping the Libyan people.

Mmitch

I think you're right that AAR is in short supply. Malta is the closest EU country and the distance would minimise need for AAR.

Draken 55.

Even the Telegraph gets it wrong occasionally. I would have thought it a little early to rule an NFZ out, particularly if the US does become involved.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

What is the current ability of the Libyan Air Force?
I flew against the Egyptians on exercise once. Definitely 'That's Entertainment' rather than serious opposition.
Wouldn't 2x two-ship CAPs do it? With a carrier offshore in case they decide to 'have a go' at the CAPs. Though I doubt we can actually do this on our own.
And would our mate 'I phone Gaddaffi every day' Berlusconi actually let us use Sigonella? I imagine Malta's getting quite full now.

[draken55]

The Telegraph article. does suggest that any attempt to get a NFZ approved by means of a Resolution approved by the UN is unlikely to succeed. Neither Russia or China would welcome such a precedent. France is just being France as usual!

I really doubt the USA and others are ready to form another "coalition of the willing" short of firm evidence that the Libyan Air Force is attacking is own civillians. In the meantime the humanitarian issue is perhaps coming to the fore

[manccowboy]

Put the AIM-9s on the a Nimrod.

There's only the R1's left :ugh:

[Boslandew]

Draken 55

It does sound a little unlikely in view of what you say about Russia and China. However, I was kinda surprised when the Security Council voted unanimously about Libya as they did over the weekend, so we never know.

I was really looking at the physical practicalities of the UK forming an NFZ sooner than the political position.

[Hugh FW]

Manc,

and both of those R1s have only 30 days left before they're scrapped !!

[andy148]

I wonder if we can give them an "IOU" for a No Fly Zone that we could/may honour when we get our new carriers and F35's.... Say in about 10 years ish! :E

[Heathrow Harry]

no point in not using the R1's right up to the end - real value for money

[grandfer]

Going back a few posts , there is virtually a whole Squadron of SHARs slumbering down at Culdrose waiting to be woken up to go flying again ! :ok::ok::ok:

[D O Guerrero]

So aircraft carriers aren't entirely useless then?

It's funny how things work out...

[draken55]

Boslandew

This has now become a major political issue as the UK could never seek to impose any NFZ itself. One could only be established with UN consent. The earlier UN Resolution was agreed when it seemed the Regime was on the point of being toppled by a popular uprising. That may not now be the case with much of the Libyan Armed Forces, especially the Air Force largely intact.

Re the practicalities, Malta is non-alinged and unlikely to be available as a base for any military action.That leaves Crete, Italy and the SB at Akrotiri plus the USS Enterprise Carrier Battle Group for a NFZ if one was to be agreed as being required. The chances of that are small unless Gaddafi is seen as going beserk against his "rebel" population. A stand off could well suit him just fine. He still has the Funds in his Central Bank with which to buy loyalty and pay his Armed Forces.

The PM and others, especially in the USA, may have been too quick off the mark on Libya. Some backsliding may now follow as events unfold but meantime the humanitarian issue on the borders of the country has come to the fore which in turn will further de-stabilise North Africa as a whole. For example, the last thing Egypt needs is lots of workers returning home to add to it's already high levels of domestic unemployment.

[Huyin]

I am concerned that earlier today Nutloose may have inadvertently given away the Government latest "Cunning Stunt" (Did I get that right?) aimed at enforcing a "value for money NFZ" over Libya. His photo chillingly shows the actual Sea Prince which is currently being modified by the addition of the Nimrod Flight Refuelling probe shown in the foreground & also by the addition of sidewinders (From spare Nimrod stocks). The Sidewinder firing mechanism has given cause for concern but hardwiring from the above wing stations (a la Jaguar) well secured with Duct Tape (Plenty available due reduction in aircraft numbers) leads directly into the cockpit via the side windows. Much study has resulted in the wiring being attached to an X-Box to enable the firing sequence. (The Sony Play Station being unsuitable).
To overcome the minor annoyance of the Sea Prince having a range of 460 miles & Malta being 200 miles from Tripoli thus giving around 20 minutes on station there are plans to provide the Hercules fleet (Yes ,those three) as Tanker aircraft when they are not repatriating "oilies" from desert locations within the NFZ.
Providing further value for money the Sea Prince acts as its own AWACS with the original three students seats now being taken by two (experienced) Foreign Office observers who will watch for aircraft appearing on either side of the Sea Prince & shout warnings to the Cockpit Crew. The third will broadcast on all TV & Radio Channels pertinent UN resolutions justifying the NFZ.(Equipment loaned by USAF PsyOps)
Finally ,it will painted with "Open Skies" logo's, backing up the "might" with "right", as it were.
A fleet of 3 Sea Prince/Pembroke aircraft is planned to police the NFZ.
A final note to Nutloose as you peer from behind the curtains this evening. They no longer use four wheel drives with blacked out windows due to the cut backs ,so you are looking for a cunningly parked minicab or an Avis Car (1.2 Corsa normally).
Bonne Chance

[DERG]

"This has now become a major political issue as the UK could never seek to impose any NFZ itself. One could only be established with UN consent."

So WTF is Cameron doing pressing the button on his Buzz Lightyear suit. He is delusional in need of psychiatric help.

Just because Tony Blair is employed by the Bush family does not mean that we automatically get a back up from the U.S. military.

Cameron is insane.

"I am concerned that earlier today Nutloose may have inadvertently given away the Government latest "Cunning Stunt"..."

Maybe someone left that pic on a tube station?

[draken55]

So WTF is Cameron doing pressing the button on his Buzz Lightyear suit.

Nothing changes! I made a point on another thread about the inability of politicians to stop getting involved with "external issues" that could require the threat of force, at the same time they time they were cutting back on the ability to deploy such force.

Post SDSR and bar Afghanistan, the UK was going on a capability holiday. We could therefore "do without" as the FCO/MOD saw no likely threat until 2020. Bingo, North Africa erupts the FCO and PM want to do something. Reduce commitments to match up with reduced force levels? Fat chance, HMG keeps finding more to do.:mad:

[Tiger Tales]

At this rate we will have our own 'No Fly(ing) Zone' here in the UK soon :bored::}

[4Greens]

Am more than happy to escort Huyin in his Sea Prince. I will be flying my Sea Venom from Hal Far ---if I can remember how to do it.....

[manccowboy]

Manc,

and both of those R1s have only 30 days left before they're scrapped !!

I wouldn't bet on it given the current events in the Arab world.

[Flugplatz]

Can't we send the Ash-Cloud over there? or get BAA to run the libyan mil airfields?

Flug

[Sir George Cayley]

One group deffo against any NFZ is the People. They don't want any outside help with their revolution.

And I agree. We didn't beak in with Tunisia, Egypt or Bahrain so why now?

And it gets Dave off of the hook.

Last thought. If we're bringing old aircraft out of retirement, could Shuttleworth spare the Gladiator and the Afghan Hind ?:ok:

Sir George Cayley

[PingDit]

Why don't we simply 'tool-up' a few UAV's and send them up?
Longer endurance with in-built deniability!
:E

[minigundiplomat]

With a USN carrier group in the area, any air assets we can muster will almost certainly leave bystanders with the image of a flea attempting to 'tup' an elephant.

Why can't we stop pretending?

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've no idea if Cameron is delusional. However, I am pretty sure that he's an utter f***wit.

[Two's in]

4 pages of how we might do this, but not a word of why we might do it. Apparently the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan are already lost, where we learned (again) that politicians spouting off and performing a dick-dance with each other just increases the sales of coffins and flags for the military. The tactical vehicle is the NFZ -but what the fark is the mission? Is it to make Dave look good as he axes 10,000 service men and woman.

[glad rag]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^:D:D:D:D:D:D^^^^^^^^^^^^

Gr

[Wensleydale]

We can apply the plans for the future defence of the UK to the area:

The current thinking for cheap air defence is to fly a member of the Royal Family into the defended area and declare "Purple Airspace". No-one is going to penetrate that!

W

PS. We have already started training the Royals to fly their own aircraft so making it even cheaper.

[A2QFI]

Slight thread drift. A lady called Dawn McCafferty of the RAF Families Federation, commenting on redundancy and manning levels in today's Times says "We cannot be everywhere at once". I think she has missed the point - "We cannot be ANYWHERE at once"

[Evanelpus]

I've no idea if Cameron is delusional. However, I am pretty sure that he's an utter f***wit.

But then again, all politicians fit this bill.

Wasn't it Cameron et al who sat opposite Tony Bliar saying that we shouldn't get involved in Iraq? Seems to me, pot and kettle are the order of the day.

[Red Line Entry]

Isn't Dawn's husband, Phil, an RAF dentist?

[thunderbird7]

A NFZ just prolongs the pain and costs alot of money to enforce.

After all, one of the reasons for invading Iraq was simply a desire to end the monetary cost of enforcing a NFZ that achieved very little. Saddam still persecuted plenty of people and stuck 2 fingers up to the west and showed no sign of budging.

12 years of trogging up and down the border etc spent lots of money on an average day with all the surveillance aircraft, CAP, ground support & logistics to maintain all that, to what end? It still took a ground invasion and bombing campaign to shift him.

What chance do the politicians have of swinging an operation like that now? I believe there is complete and utter cynicism in the attitude of the public over anything 'the government' may say about Libya, such that there would be no stomach for military action against Libya.

And, ironically, this really IS the country that HAS historically generated terrorist attacks against the west.

And yes, 'Call me Dave' is a prevaricating muppet. :ooh:

[XV277]

4 pages of how we might do this, but not a word of why we might do it. Apparently the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan are already lost, where we learned (again) that politicians spouting off and performing a dick-dance with each other just increases the sales of coffins and flags for the military. The tactical vehicle is the NFZ -but what the fark is the mission? Is it to make Dave look good as he axes 10,000 service men and woman.

Two's in,

It's the 'we must be seen to be doing something' mantra that infects politicians today. From gun control to dangerous dogs to immigration, if something happens then the politicos feel they must 'do something' about it - usually knee-jerk and without careful thought about long term consequernces or whether you are using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

Better that, in their view, than be accused by their opponents and the mdeia, of 'doing nothing'.

[BootFlap]

Red Line Entry,

I've just got it! Very good, that cheered me up in these times of woe :E

[The Old Fat One]

nutloose

10 our of 10 :ok:

thread has gone too serious now...

so,

There are two sorts of politicians in this world..

Those that spout bull all day long and know they are doing it.
Those that spout bull all day long and don't know they are doing it.

The latter are way more dangerous...Blair was (still is) one of these. Worringly, Cameron is showing signs that he might be too.

[peter272]

It reminds me of the second Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series - the Man in the Shack

You elect a politician to govern, but you can't trust anyone who seeks power actually to have it. So you give power of decision-making to 'the man in the shack'

Its a shame Douglas Adams never saw the way our politics has turned out with PMs playing at governing without a clue what they are doing.

[TURIN]

Who should be in charge? If no-one who wants to should be allowed to?

"Kitty, here kitty. Kittykittykitty kitty wants some fish?......"

Genius.:ok:






Has anyone mentioned the oil yet? Seems odd that Mugabi has been upsetting his own for years and 'we' do nothing but as soon as the oil is threatened, our leaders suddenly find 'the military option' the no.1 choice. :sad:

[kiliwizz]

I think we should have a "big society" no fly zone.

Lend the rebels a load of rapiers and let them get on with it... :cool:

[thunderbird7]

Those that spout bull all day long and know they are doing it.
Those that spout bull all day long and don't know they are doing it.

...or:

"Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible.

This I have done."

T.E. Lawrence

Maybe they've been reading the 7 Pillars?

[The Old Fat One]

Old AC Shaw certainly had a way with words. And I though I was the first to come up with that notion. Damn

[Grabbers]

Perhaps Gordon Brown should be invited to lead a new, democratic Libya. Quicker than you can say 'depth perception' he'd have sold off the gold, oil and infrastructure to the lowest, least suitable bidder and lashed their economy up the wall. Given 6 months, the Libyan military won't be able to start a fight in a (privatised) bus shelter. Job done.

Grabbers for UN Sec Gen.

[Roadster280]

But Grabbers, in a democratic Libya, that would require a majority to vote for him. What kind of retard would vote for Gordon Brown? :E

[Grabbers]

A good point. Still, not being voted in didn't seem to bother him last time.

[snagged1]

Well said Grabbers...lest we forget we are in this mess because of Gordon Clown!

Is the PM Delusional - far from it - he is the only one making sense compared to the Labour/Left lunatics!

[Thelma Viaduct]

Well said Grabbers...lest we forget we are in this mess because of Gordon Clown!

Is the PM Delusional - far from it - he is the only one making sense compared to the Labour/Left lunatics!

Bollards !!!

They are all incompetent, that is why they are politicians.

They waste billions of £'s and no one bats an eyelid, they are not even accountable, what a job.

[Faithless]

I know, send Dave Clanggerbafoon and his Merry Prats to Military training send them out to some Sh*t hole have a few of the MP's lose limbs, become seriously wounded or be killed (no disrespect to our forces lads and lasses, God bless em)....Slowly hack away the equipment they have. Move their families in to some sh*tty quarter, raise the rent, cut the allowences, then when they come back from the said sh*t hole sack em....:rolleyes:

The "Great" in Britain has been removed until further notice. :(

Don't think he should worry about revolutions in the Middle East...he's needs to look closer to home:*

I cannot believe what is happening to our beloved forces right now :{

[snagged1]

"They are all incompetent, that is why they are politicians.

They waste billions of £'s and no one bats an eyelid, they are not even accountable, what a job."

So I assume you are talking about the MOD here?

As far as being incompetent, I think that trying to get the country's economy back on track, repairing the damage done to the social well beingof this country is exactly what they sould be doing!

"I cannot believe what is happening to our beloved forces right now"
I cannot believe what HAS happened to our beloved country for the past 13 years - there lies the real disaster.

[Postman Plod]

Oh Snagged, open your eyes, its been going on a LOT longer than 13 years and 1 Liebour government - THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!!!! Defence cuts of 1982? 89? 93? (or whatever years they were - its not the point) in a Liebour government now... Very few of them are in it out of altruism or to defend or guide the country! Hell, how many of them have had REAL jobs in the REAL world? How many of them went to REAL schools or colleges? How many of them have half an idea what the forces do? What being on the breadline is like? what being made redundant is like?

Repairing the social wellbeing of this country? By ripping the heart out of it? I don't think that'll work somehow... Seems to me all they're doing is protecting the rich banking elite further - you know - the ones who actually got us into this mess in the first place, with the help of the politicians!

All the same - Tories, Limp Dims, Liebour. And you know its bad when even the Hate Mail and Express turn on the Tories.

[snagged1]

Postman,

Thank you, eyes are very much open.

Ripping the heart out of the country?
Have you been spending too much time with those idoits at UNITE? :suspect:
The problem is that this country has grown a generation of work shy morons who would rather live off benefits, and expect the government to pay for everything (health, university, etc) - they fail to realise that someone has to pay taxes to do so! Chaps like those at the Union who think that a company that is struggling to make money should still pay their people more and more... :ugh:

I get fed up of heaing about the "banking elite" being evil etc - get real. The banking industry generates huge wealth for this country, not only in raw taxes, but in the knock on effects of money spent.

:eek:

[Sunfish]

The reason Britain has been in decline since at least 1960 is that you worship the upper classes and insist on being governed and managed by Oxbridge educated twits who make a virtue out of never, ever, getting their hands dirty.

This practice, at the very least, cost you your electronics industry, your aircraft industry and your car industry. You compensated by inventing a new industry based on financial masturbation in "The City". Tell us how well that worked out?

Oxford, Cambridge, Eton? Len Deighton described them as nothing more than "Group therapy for congenital deviates". Cameron merely continues a long tradition.

[cazatou]

I would suggest that less than 10% of MP's have any real conception of what the Armed Forces actually do. Any member of the "Great British Public" born after 1940 would only know if they had actually served.

The Cadet Corps such as the ATC are a fraction of the size they were when I was a 14 year old - and almost all the School Units have disappeared.

Rudyard Kipling put it far better than I can:-

"Its Tommy this and Tommy that and "Chuck him out the Brute" - but its "Saviour of his Country" when the guns begin to shoot".

The trouble is that it will be too late to rectify the deficiences once the shooting has started.

[pr00ne]

sunfish,

..."cost us our aircraft industry?"

How the hell do you work that out sport? The UK has the second largest aerospace industry on the planet, to be any bigger it would have to be larger than that of the US, hardly likely is it?

Ever been anywhere near Oxford or Cambridge?

[Strobin Purple]

Sunfish, what a load of chippy Australian bollox!

[Sunfish]

Proone:

..."cost us our aircraft industry?"

How the hell do you work that out sport? The UK has the second largest aerospace industry on the planet, to be any bigger it would have to be larger than that of the US, hardly likely is it?

Ever been anywhere near Oxford or Cambridge?

You perfectly demonstrate the British management mentality.... "How dare you criticise me? I'm the manager!"

You make aircraft components. What was the last civil aircraft you built? The BAe 146? Tell me about the quality control on the RR Trent that let go out of Singapore on the Qantas A380.


Take the wonderful Morris Mini - it was a revolutionary car when it was released - then your industry sat on its fat backside and didn't develop it while the Japanese caught up. The industry did exactly the same thing with the Range Rover.

Where is the Harrier Mk II? Ground breaking technology again, now going out of service.

It always seems the same - brilliant initial concept and design, then the dead hand of British Oxbridge thinking kills it stone dead, and always from a failure to accept feedback from customers and the workers who build things - "the shop floor".

The other defining characteristic of the management/governing class is a total backward looking focus on the days when Britain was "Great", does the BBC still run those black and white war movies on Sunday afternoons?

[racedo]

He is a politician thereby answering your question.

Politicians Raison D'etre solely is to get re-elected until they start realising their own mortality when they then wish to leave a Legacy.

[500N]

Sunfish
I think some of your comments are a bit like the Pot calling the kettle black.

"It always seems the same - brilliant initial concept and design, then the dead hand of British Oxbridge thinking kills it stone dead, and always from a failure to accept feedback from customers and the workers who build things - "the shop floor"."

Australia has an appaling record of coming up with great ideas but industry not running on them. The "Black Box" being just ONE of the better known one's.

And I wouldn't say the Aust MILITARY aircraft industry - and I incude Defence in that which includes the planning component - is any better - we seem to have a habit of cocking up most purchases which involve anything other than "off the shelf".

And as for " The reason Britain has been in decline since at least 1960 is that you worship the upper classes and insist on being governed and managed by Oxbridge educated twits who make a virtue out of never, ever, getting their hands dirty."

Well, that's a very broad statement. I could name quite a few I know personally at the Upper end of Australian industry who went through OxCam - including one recent PM, the ex head of the largest Gas Company in Aust, the ex head of the one of the top 4 banks and many others and they all seem good at getting the hands dirty.
The British car industry - just like a lot of indusries, INCLUDING Australia's car industry - they move around the world. The only reason Australia still has a car industry is becaue the gov't keeps doing sweetheart deals here with the Manufacturers because they can't face reality. The US lost it's clothing manufacturing industry to Mexico and China and even now it is moving on to other "lower cost" locations in other countries. Japan - electronics, now China and Taiwan.
That's just my HO.

snagged1
Plenty of "work shy morons who would rather live off benefits" in Australia as well, you don't have exclusive on that !:O

[covec]

I agree with Sunfish. Port swilling, self-important, empire builders.

I also agree with 500N 'cos I'm Irish & the Ozzies did for Ned Kelly.

Other than the above comments I think that I'll sit on the fence on this one as I suspect M. Collins wished he had too!

Anyway England - ready for your Grand Slam stopper?

[The Old Fat One]

What happened to a fun thread??

Who let the dogs out.....

PS What sort of idiot spells idiot, idoit? Must have gone to Oxbridge; should have gone to specsavers.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Sunfish is on the money, snagged1 is in cloud cuckoo land with Dave the wet lipped gimp.

[Roadster280]

My company (only indirectly defence related) used to make a range of products. Most of which lost money. We then stripped down, and now make money out of supporting the loss-making (but world beating) products we used to make. We also have the next generation of world-beaters, but we don't sell the old ones.

Drawing a parallel with the wider industries of the UK, the inability to make a profit out of small projects has been the killer for years. If you're going to build something high value for the government, sell hundreds, preferably thousands of them. If you can't identify the markets to do that, don't do it at all. Or if you are going to do it, make sure it's government funded, with a cast-iron contract.

Actually, in preference, do both. Thousands of them with government funding.

[Like This - Do That]

The old assumption was that servicemen tended to vote Tory; at least there was a perception that servicemen tended to vote Tory well out of proportion to the wider voting population. There are some obvious exceptions of course, such as the post WWII election of the Attlee government, but otherwise a fair assumption to make.

But we've seen repeated shocks to the system, unwelcome outcomes from Tory administrations, eg: the 1957 White Paper; the savage cuts planned under John Nott; Options for Change. These surely must have tested many Tory - leaning servicemen and women, but compared to those the 2010 SDSR appears to be a catalyst for a more profound shift.

But where? To whom? Labour is hardly a natural home (despite the number of service personnel who are Labour voters); the Lib Dems appear further to the left than Labour at times (at least from here they do, much like the Australian Democrats did until their demise). UKIP? A handful of nutters might dally with the BNP.

Have the Tories decided that defence is now such a small vote that (a) it can be ignored as its electoral effects are so limited; or (b) that defence voters have nowhere else to go? Has SDSR 2010 broken the Conservative - Forces bond for good?

Disclaimer - I'm an outsider looking in, and looking in with a sense of dread and despair. I feel like I'm watching an organisation for which I have always had an enormous affection and respect being torn apart by the cynical and short-sighted. This doesn't affect me nor my soldiers - at least not directly - but as 'family' and as allies it sickens me.

[Andu]

You sort of get an idea of what it must have been like for the Roman Legionnaires around AD 300 as they stood on the Roman Empire's borders defending them... only to discover that, along with their pay packets, the very core of the Empire, Rome, had imploded and disappeared up its own fundamental orifice.

History, I fear, is repeating itself.

I just hope it doesn't do so to the point where our grandchildren have to endure another thousand year Dark Ages.

[orca]

Supposedly somewhere in the last 5 pages is the reason why we couldn't deploy 16 (current FE@R - or at least SDSR FE@R as I recall) Typhoon to the Libyan NFZ. After all they have yet to deploy and they must be itching to be seen to do something other than Falklands and UK QRA.

[Blacksheep]

A bit of common sense from an American on the radio this morning. Imposing a no-fly zone starts with hostile military action - the destruction of the airfields - before any standing air patrols can be mounted. Who is going to be the first to declare war on Libya? Then the number of aircraft required for such a large country is much more than can be carried on any aircraft carrier. So, which is the friendly country that will host the operation? As the man said, a no-fly policy is a no-no for the time being.

[E L Whisty]

Like This - Do That - spot on. In addition, UKIP is the only British political party that advocates immediate increase of Defence Budget to meet the tasking already placed upon the British MoD and Forces.

The LibDems are crippled by Watermelonitis - scratch a green and you will see the red underneath.

Labour are driven by dislike of people, of each other and of themselves. They just cannot accept what became of 'the movement' when it fell into the hands of Blair and Brown.

The Tories are well to the left, IMHO, of Labour. They are dangerously pro-EU which is a communist inspired conspiracy. The conspiracy is wrapped up in corruption, of course, but the whole thing is obscured by the monumental incompetence of thousands of arrogant, undemocratically appointed career bureaucrats.

David Cameron's big problem is his obsession with 'spin' as he still thinks that he is the Heir to Blair and idolises that evil bastard. If he could resist the temptation to produce a sound bite in lieu of statesmanlike reflection, he would not appear such a delusional tosser.

On the other hand, he was talking days ago (a long time in politics) about a NFZ. As events unfold, more and more 'leaders' are warming to the idea.

So, all in all, he is probably not delusional - just a career politician and about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

[cazatou]

Well, as someone who lives in the"communist inspired conspiracy" I am just about to drive into the local Town to fill my car with cheap fuel and to purchase some of the excellent wine, fruit and vegetables on offer in the local Supermarket at prices well below those in the UK.

It is also comforting to know (as one is "getting on in years") that the Health Service here is recognised as the Best in the World.

[DERG]

stop teasing us! :ouch:

[Peter Ridley]

The NFZ will not happen because we have no money.
Forces redundancies will happen because we have no money.
We will loose equipment because we have no money.

This country is insolvent as we cannot stop borrowing money yet alone pay off our debts.

We cannot afford offensive ops. We will pull out of Afghanistan and then I am afraid there will be massive cuts and huge redundancies. Start planning your future.

[snagged1]

Cazatou you lucky chap!

Sunfish - interesting to see you lumped Eton into the oxford/cambridge circle and your stance that UK has been going downhill since the 60's... Funny that since 1964 the UK has not had a single PM that went to Eton until DC, before which there were 18 PM's from Eton during the "great" era of this country - maybe something to be said for it?:eek:

Old fat one - my apologies for the typo...and no, I didnt go to oxbridge. And this is still a fun thread so everyone smile and look happy please :ok:

[draken55]

Off thread but it's now nearly 40 years since the UK joined the EEC. The latter has since turned itself into the EU and expanded dramatically in size and away from just being a trading bloc. Many do not think the EU has that much of an impact on life at the day to day level. That is of course not the case.

Why? Our MP's have approved Treaties since the early 1980's that agreed the transfer of certain powers to Brussels. Many including our current PM now express surprise when EU Law based on such Treaties is pointed out by the European Court and rubber stamped by our "Supreme" Court as the former trumps UK legislation!

Membership of the EU is not a subject put up for discussion by any of the major party's even though our reason for joining has been overtaken by the globalisation of markets.

Caz enjoy the fine wine good food and healthcare in France while you can:(

In the meantime perhaps this link shows what is going on behind the scenes http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/surface-fleet/type-23-frigates/hms-richmond/news/hms_richmond_a_force.htm

I assume Liam Fox is aware of this EU Naval Force:confused:

[Whenurhappy]

Sunfish,

You demonstrate a not-uncommon and erroneous Antipodean view of a Britain that doesn't exist anymore.

Britain (a country that adopted me, I love and have devoted my working life to) has suffered from a crisis in confidence since the end of World War I. It has been characterised by the managed decline of greatness. Arguably it has never recovered from the grevious human and financial losses of the Great War which shook its self image (and acutalite) of invincibility. One just needs to visit any Public School or Oxbridge College and see the In Memoriam boards and weep at the lost of talent and youth (no escaping the fact that these schools and colleges did produce Britain's leaders). At my son's school they lost a hunderd 'old' boys on the first day of the Somme. The youngest had just turned 18; almost all of them Temporary (very temporary) officers. My own College produced Sigfiried Sassoon and three VC winners, amongst many others - all 'bright young things' whose lives were forever changed. Who can blame them that they didn't want Britain to fight more wars and saw the realities of Empire. Just read Orwell's 'Burmese Days' to get a sense of what Empire was all about.

I was reading to my daughter an old Ladybird book on the Kings and Queens of England, and we got to our current Regent. The book used the telling phrase 'By the early 1950s, England (sic) was proud to be poor. It had defeated three tyrants in wartime, made of its old Empire self governing and created a welfare state where there would be no more poverty.' That's quite an achievement.

Britian is well and truely Post Imperial, but commands a huge sector of the global market in language, culture, tourism and finance. Militarily we still carry a punch (what other country - apart from the US - can continuously field 10,000 high quality, well-equipped troops with all the CS and CSS they need?) and in spite of EU cynicism, the UK is well regarded in Brussels. Set all this against the privaledged upbringing (not his fault, btw) of David Cameron and you can see the dichotomy he faces. 20 years ago there would be absolutely no thought of interfering with the 'internal' affairs of Libya, or any other country for that matter. The dirty, internecine Balkans wars changed that. Western democracies simply could not ignore the 'CNN Factor' and Libya, inter alia, is no exception. Perhaps David Cameron's well-meant proposals (amongst a range of other options) was a genuine 'we've got to do something!'

A NFZ seems a good idea until the tactical weeds of disabling the IADS are considered (mind - that doesn't always mean resorting to kinetic means...) ; moreover NFZ over BiH and Kosovo didn't stop the troops on the ground do some truely awful stuff. It did, however, stop Saddam Hussein's ambitions to rebuild his defences. Certainly, news reports indicate that the Libyan people (sic) don't want direct foreign intervention but the problem in Libya is that there is no organised opposition; the opposition has been viral and hitherto leaderless. In this leadership vacuum, Qadaffi might well prevail, although his FJ crews need to improve their bombing accuracy, it seems.

[BOAC]

although his FJ crews need to improve their bombing accuracy, it seems. - actually I suspect that a lot of people in Libya are happy with it as it is?

[Whenurhappy]

Draken 55

EU, EU...

A keen student of history will realise that the origins of the EU can be traced to US support for various initiatives to 'bind in' strategic materials, principally Iron and Coal. The US openly funded the Economist to promote European unity/integration/call it what you will (As well, of course, as NATO) because they realised, altruistically, that a united Europe that was inexorably interconnected would not slaughter large sections of its population on a regular basis.

The 65 years since WW II has been the longest period of peace in Western Europe since the...oh, 13th Century.

Recent finacial crises in Europe (principally the PIGS economies) could lead to the rise of economic nationalism. Luckily, Angel Merkl is sensible enough to realise the impact of collapsing economies around Europe, and made the Budesbank coffers available to fight the fires and to keep Europe afloat. Do you really want to go back to an internally barricaded Europe?

Oh, and the Supreme Court? Long overdue. Why had it taken so long to realise that there was no seperation between the Legislature and the Judiciary? (ie Members of the House of Lords making and approving laws, and then adjudging on them).

How has EU legislation directly imapcted on you?

[Whenurhappy]

BOAC, in spite of the seriousness of my post, the reference to bombing accuracy was with tongue firmly stuck in cheek!

[maxred]

The current Western foreign policy dictat resembles a bush fire, as one issue springs up, douse it, by whatever means - generally military which of course rarely resolves the fundamental issues. Poverty, power shift, dictators, food shortage, corruption et al.

None of this, of course, is new. The history buffs can easily show us centuries of examples. What bothers me is that after the rat bag Blair and his infantile dwarves were outed, there was a brief hope that DC would bring a more level attitude to this - look closely at Afghanistan, look closely at the failures of Iraq, stand back and THINK, strategy.

Pressing insolvency appears to have negated any chance of that, instead we appear to be literally throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water. No clear Foreign Policy, linked to Strategic Defence capability - NOT. Therefore is he delusional? Lost me thinks. Too many problems overwhelm - kill the ducks:ouch:

[Brian 48nav]

Caz; we were living in Tarn & Gers from '06 till a year ago.As the £ diminished in value we topped up with shopping on each trip back home to Blighty.

Fuel was getting more expensive and a year ago petrol95 was cheaper here & diesel just slightly cheaper in France,but not so much that you would bust a gut to have a brimming tank as you hit the ferry.

The wine is OK,but as a Real Ale drinker I was lost over there! Food ummmm French cooking is nowhere near as good as they think it is, they don't seem to realise that the UK has caught up. All our best meals out were chez fellow Brits!

France is a fabulous country and the French are great,BUT there's no place like home,especially since GB went. All I pray is that for the remainder of my life I never see a Labour Government again (bit of an oxymoron!) ; the thought of Hitler lookalike Balls anywhere near power fills me with dread.

Back to thread - give Mr Cameron a break guys - time to judge him is a year or two down the road.

[E L Whisty]

Does anybody share my concern that Cameron seems to model himself on Blair, places presentation before substance and might get us involved in something truly dreadful?

It is my belief that Gadaffi is more of a threat than many appreciate. He is quite capable of killing many thousands of his own people - precisely because Libyans are not his people. Too few people appreciate the tribal nature of a very rich country in which the majority are very poor and Gaddafi's minority supporters are extremely rich. They have too much to lose to give up too readily. They have also been gathering resources for many years and might have some very nasty stuff at hand.

Rather than delivering bellicose soundbites, our 'leaders' should be spending a great deal of effort on getting this right.

[draken55]

Whenurhappy

I was simply highlighting that we are no longer in what we joined and that it was our MP's who agreed to the change in emphasis from a trading bloc to what is more of a cohesive political, economic and monetary Union. To judge from the PM's comments you might believe he still considered Wetsminster to be Sovereign but he knows well that in many areas it is not. Perhaps that's why he wants to be at the fore of foreign policy and defence issues.

Anyway, the EU no longers covers just "Western" Europe. We could not refuse the prize of EU membership to the Eastern European countries after the fall of the Soviet Bloc? Can we refuse it or "Norway" type status to Turkey (a staunch NATO member) or North African countries with close cultural ties to the EU to persuade them to stay with or move to a more democratic "western" style of Government?

Just a thought:)

[Whenurhappy]

In spite of CFSP, the UK maintains sovereignty where it matters - Foreign Policy and Defence. Neither the EU nor NATO can commit UK personnel to any sort of military operations without express UK approval and there is absolutely no appetite to change this. Moreover, the UK retains the unalieinable right to engage in treaties with other States. In spite of the Daily Outrage headlines, there are no moves to creat a European Army or even European Police Force (the Euro-Gendarmerie is a virtual body, with no powers within Europe).

[cazatou]

Brian48nav

Each to their own - but this is the only place I have ever lived where, in a bout of very severe weather, I have answered the telephone to find the local Mayor on the other end enquiring if the Hamlet had any problems with flooding etc.

[draken55]

Whenurhappy

"there are no moves to create a European Army or even European Police Force"

But as Mr Assange knows, we do have the EU wide arrest warrant!

Are you really sure we really have control over Foreign Policy and Defence? If so what is your view of this? Looks like a move to a Non NATO Naval Force to me. Not saying I am against it but are we being asked if this is the way to go?

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/surface-fleet/type-23-frigates/hms-richmond/news/hms_richmond_a_force.htm

[The Old Fat One]

Draken

You need to decide what it is you're against...

Worldwide extradition treaties exist well above and beyond the EU. And GB has been interdependant on security alliances with other states and multi state bodies since the Roman Empire.

I don't doubt you are anti EU (so am I in some instances) but you need to focus your arguments a little more and stop blaming the EU for stuff that has nothing to do with it, or existed centuries before the EU was dreamed up.

PS See how we get sucked in....does anybody know the whereabouts of the Scottish branch of PPrune Anon? Way too much time on my hands.

[NutLoose]

Well, as someone who lives in the"communist inspired conspiracy" I am just about to drive into the local Town to fill my car with cheap fuel and to purchase some of the excellent wine, fruit and vegetables on offer in the local Supermarket at prices well below those in the UK.

It is also comforting to know (as one is "getting on in years") that the Health Service here is recognised as the Best in the World.


Just a shame the country is full of French people, otherwise it might have been "Eu"topia ;)

[green granite]

Alex is rather apt today: Alex - Peattie & Taylor (http://www.alexcartoon.com/)

[draken55]

Nutloose

I am simply pointing out that in the UK our political leadership be it Conservative or Labour never sought or obtained a mandate to transfer powers from Westminster to Brussels so allowing the EU to become what it has. I find that un-democratic.

I am not anti EU by the way but have real reservations about how EU powers and functions arrive more by stealth than after open debate! The Lisbon Treaty was a good example of this. How did you vote? Ooops not asked:oh:

[Brian 48nav]

Hello again; yes we had a similar thing after the Jan 2009 hurricane. Six trees down across our drive,I went up to the hamlet to check on status of electricity and to request help at cessation of the storm, about 5pm on a Saturday and by the time we had dragged ourselves out of bed the following morning a bunch of guys had sawn and moved the trees. No charge, just a bunch of smiling faces!

Nutloose, contrary to what many of us have said in the past 'great country,shame about the people' the French away from the big cities are fantastic. The secret is to always speak a little of their language, even if you are useless at it,as then they will respond with humour and kindness.

However if you live in rural England,say Herefordshire,Dorset etc people are just as kind and friendly - the closer you are to 'The Great Wen' the more you experience the rat race.

[Wander00]

Nutloose - where in this country with the best health service are you buying "cheap" fuel - unless you are on LPG. Petrol seems pretty expensive on the Vendee-Deux Sevres border!

[maxred]

Yup, I am just back, Carcassonne region, and was paying 1.42 per litre. Same in Northern Spain - aint cheap, and almost relicates here:{

[NutLoose]

draken55

You have there, I never said anything??

As for the fuel prices in other posts,

well I have to admit I have'nt a clue what it is, if the car needs filling up I just pull in and fill it up, not one of these that will travel 15 miles to save 1p a litre..... I do not even look at the prices, my car gets filled up once a month and that is that, costs me about £50 quid..... in fact thinking of it I couldn't tell you how much a loaf of bread is, whenever I go shopping I just pick what I want and pay for it...... I never bother looking at prices at all...... I either want it or not and the fact Tescoopmorrisonsasda has it cheaper does not enter into it.... I go to my local coop superstore as it is the nearest store, or I use my local shop, anything else I order on line.

[draken55]

Nutloose

Apologies for the error. My post was in response to The Old Fat One:O

[Sunfish]

Whenurhappy:

Sunfish,

You demonstrate a not-uncommon and erroneous Antipodean view of a Britain that doesn't exist anymore.

Britain (a country that adopted me, I love and have devoted my working life to) has suffered from a crisis in confidence since the end of World War I. It has been characterised by the managed decline of greatness. Arguably it has never recovered from the grevious human and financial losses of the Great War which shook its self image (and acutalite) of invincibility. One just needs to visit any Public School or Oxbridge College and see the In Memoriam boards and weep at the lost of talent and youth (no escaping the fact that these schools and colleges did produce Britain's leaders). At my son's school they lost a hunderd 'old' boys on the first day of the Somme. The youngest had just turned 18; almost all of them Temporary (very temporary) officers. My own College produced Sigfiried Sassoon and three VC winners, amongst many others - all 'bright young things' whose lives were forever changed. Who can blame them that they didn't want Britain to fight more wars and saw the realities of Empire. Just read Orwell's 'Burmese Days' to get a sense of what Empire was all about.



With the greatest respect;

Like hell "it doesn't exist any more". I was married to an English lady for Twenty years, and I've lived it.

The class system is alive and well, read the Speccy and Country Life! I've lived it first hand. I've heard the braying about shooting and fishing and the country house. I had a brother in law in the City and watched the goings on of these conceited idiots. I still have my green wellies and old barbour jacket to "blend in'.

Two things are killing Britain:

1. The class system that ensures that GOOD IDEAS and TALENT are wasted unless the come with the "right" accent.

2. A backwards looking mentality that pines for Empire.


What has occurred since at least the 1870's is the building up of a myth about Britains heroic past that is simply untrue, but worse, it is self perpetuating and damaging to the future of Britain, because it informs peoples attitudes today.

That myth is something like the idea that the pure, self sacrificing, British gentry built the country and empire out of pure goodness of heart. That Britains rise was pre ordained because of it's unique culture, values and social structure. It includes the idea that the British public (ie: Private) school system is something of value instead of a perverse aberration of human behaviour. It includes the idea that all knowledge flows from Oxbridge, which is a self serving University myth and the subject of much learned debate even today (Find a copy of "The Economics of Scientific Research" if you can).

Your own words perfectly encapsulate this myth:

One just needs to visit any Public School or Oxbridge College and see the In Memoriam boards and weep at the lost of talent and youth.......


.........My own College produced Sigfried Sassoon and three VC winners,

Mate, there was "talent and youth" a plenty lost from all the little grammar schools that was just as valuable!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is what I am trying to say. Britain has the awful habit of valuing an idea, and a person, not on the basis of intellectual power and worth, but on the social background of the person concerned!


Take Tony Blair for example, he graduated from Oxford in 1976 and Six years later entered Parliament. What sort of life experience is that????

Look at David Cameron - he has exactly zero experience in anything outside party politics. How do you expect him to make rational and difficult decisions about the future of Britain? He has no working life experience whatsoever to guide him.


If you keep promoting people to leadership positions on the basis of where they went to school or university, instead of upon past performance, then your decline is assured.

BTW, this is not a p1ssing competition. Australia has its own problems and is not immune from "The British Disease."

Anyway, I should shut up. I'm wasting my time.

[draken55]

Sunfish

Can only speak for myself in saying that I don't have much of an issue with what you say.

However, I think that that our politicians and bureaucrats have found their new Empire in the EU rather than pine for the old one.:rolleyes:

[Andu]

Take Tony Blair for example, he graduated from Oxford in 1976 and Six years later entered Parliament. What sort of life experience is that????

Look at David Cameron - he has exactly zero experience in anything outside party politics.Sadly, Sunfish, the same could be said for the leadership of both major political parties in Australia. The sad fact is, I think we in the Antipodes are in deeper doo-doo than the UK is, because our mob, led by a mad woman, (although that's debatable - the real leader, calling all the shots recently, appears to be a man called Brown who leads the Greens), still don't understand what a deep hole they're digging for the nation.

Anyone who doubts there is some basis in Sunfish's accusations, take a look at "Longitude", (ISBN: 1841151637 / 1-84115-163-7 ) by Dava Sobel), the story of the life of John Harrison, the man who created the first accurate chronograph, without whom Great Britain's Navy and Merchant Navy would never have been able to dominate the world for 200 years.

Harrison was a commoner, and therefore, for years, totally ignored by the Royal Society, whose members chased after a succession of hare-brained schemes for accurate time keeping and navigation because they were the brainchildren of the 'right' kind of people from the 'right' social class.

[DERG]

Sunfish

Right on the nail. Not a word wasted.

Regards

[snagged1]

Sunfish
"Look at David Cameron - he has exactly zero experience in anything outside party politics"
- 7 years as a succeful director at Carlton - strikes me as work in the real world outside politics?

"The class system is alive and well, read the Speccy and Country Life! I've lived it first hand. I've heard the braying about shooting and fishing and the country house. I had a brother in law in the City and watched the goings on of these conceited idiots. I still have my green wellies and old barbour jacket to "blend in'"

- no doubt you also were pleased when fox hunting was banned as it was some evil upper class elite sport.... Not realising in fact that it was classless and open to all, and indeed provided much benefit to rural communities in UK at every level. Your broad brush statements about this "class system" are, for want of a better word, b*ll*cks

With the greatest respect, it sounds like there might the smallest chip on those shoulders of yours about NOT going to a private school, not making it into Oxbridge and not owning a country house?:E

[thunderbird7]

no doubt you also were pleased when fox hunting was banned as it was some evil upper class elite sport.... Not realising in fact that it was classless and open to all

Classless?!? Do me a favour!!

I've no problem with hunting vermin etc but such an activity requires money so maybe not strictly classest but definitely only open to a certain section of society!

Cheers

Che

[tangoe]

Can we discuss religion next or the price of fish?

[cazatou]

Is this the 12 Sqn Thread? They are the only Sqn I can think of with a fox head on their crest.

[snagged1]

Thunderbird
Hunts are not classest, but yes, for certain things you need money - as is the case in pretty much everything in life. If people choose their hobby to be horses, why does that make them "horrible upper class people" vs those that chose to have say a sports car, or go pleasure flying at weekends?

The incorrect and chippy impression that hunting (or other country sports) are reserved for the upper class is very tedious to hear over and over again when it is simply rubbish from those who typically have never been/tried such activities.
And in agreement on hunting of vermin!!:ok:

Tangoe - I agree!:ok:

[Sunfish]

Snaggedone:

- no doubt you also were pleased when fox hunting was banned as it was some evil upper class elite sport.... Not realising in fact that it was classless and open to all, and indeed provided much benefit to rural communities in UK at every level. Your broad brush statements about this "class system" are, for want of a better word, b*ll*cks


Dear sweet Sir. I once visited an acquaintance who was farming a place noted in the Domesday book near Taunton. He complained about the foxes getting into the lambs. He explained that he would "have to get the hunt in'. I asked why he didn't get out a spotlight and a 0.22 each night as we would and nail the foxes. I was looked at as if I was Osama Bin Laden.

It was quite clear that growing Lamb was secondary to providing sport.

Further fun has always been provided by :

a) Putting an eye fillet of beef on the barbie, together with a big Australian Red Wine.

b) Giving a visiting bloke a fishing rod or firearm and telling him to do his best, for free.

Please note that I will always do everything in my power to assert Australian superiority in terms of barbecue and vino in the Melbourne area. You only have to ask.

[Sunfish]

Snagged: private school, best universities, Two degrees including MBA, the usual clubs in Australia and overseas. I have no excuses.

regards, Walrus.

[snagged1]

Sunfish,

I am in doubt as to the superiorty of the Aussie bbq skills (and weather!)... not to mention the invention of flip flops (thongs?) with a bottle opener in them - superb!:ok:

[Melchett01]

Nudging things back to the original thread :

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01839/matt04032011_1839913a.jpg

[Thelma Viaduct]

When all is said and done, anyone that votes conservative is a self serving cnut, they're sub-human.

[cazatou]

I wonder what an "Impious Pilot" might say?

[The Old Fat One]

I think I know what a c**t is, but I'm unclear on the self-serving bit. It sounds like something one does at a petrol station.

If the intention is to portray conservative voters as somehow selfish or greedy, I think I must object. I don't vote conservative because I am greedy; I vote conservative because I am wealthy and landed and the Tories are good at keeping the riff raff in their place and out of mine.

[cazatou]

"Pious Pilot" obviously never had the misfortune of having the "Man from Kircaldy" as his Passenger.

[Roadster280]

When all is said and done, anyone that votes conservative is a self serving cnut, they're sub-human.

That may be so, but the alternative of voting Labour is considerably worse, by several orders of magnitude.

I suppose there's Liberal, but they're the transvestites of politics, can't make their mind up one way or the other.

I'll stick with self-serving cnut, thank you. I've worked bloody hard for what I've got, taken risks, fallen on my face once or twice, been kicked in the balls on occasion, but on the whole, I'm doing alright. Call me self serving if you like, but I did my time serving the Colours. A mutually beneficial relationship. The mob got the best years of my life, I got a very thorough preparation for success in civvy life. Win-win.

[nrl1965]

My gran once said "Their all the same, the only thing that changes is the colour of the door at No 10" As for the rif raf I'm exraf due to the last con Government, I don't trust them, as they say history is repeating its self.:ugh:

[SRENNAPS]

Roadster280

That may be so, but the alternative of voting Labour is considerably worse, by several orders of magnitude.

Over the last 30 odd years and not having the brain of a goldfish, I have come to realise that all parties are the same. But I really would like you to justify and quantify your comment above after all that we have seen in the last several months from the present government.
And pleeeessssee don’t say it was because of the amount of debt the last government left us in, that really is becoming a bit of a lame excuse.

By the way I am totally disgusted by the use of the word cnut.
I have said this before and in my opinion people that use this “hidden” language should be banned. My wife and a few friends read this site and they really don’t appreciate it.:=:=

[TOPBUNKER]

Cazatou,
Sir, I'm not sure how to put this, but perhaps a little more sensitivity to current affairs and research of news stories might be advised before posting...

'The Man from Kirkcaldy' :- and his dog?

The repatriation (http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/news/remembrance/repatriation-of-service-personnel) of a soldier killed while serving in Afghanistan will take place on Thursday 10 March, with the cortege passing through Wootton Bassett at approximately 3.30pm.
Lance Corporal Liam Richard Tasker, 26 from Kircaldy in Fife, of the Royal Army Veterinary Corps, died on Tuesday 1 March 2011.

I'm fairly sure that Thursday's crew will have no complaints about the behaviour of Corporal Tasker as a passenger on their AT aeroplane.

[Thelma Viaduct]

That may be so, but the alternative of voting Labour is considerably worse, by several orders of magnitude.

I suppose there's Liberal, but they're the transvestites of politics, can't make their mind up one way or the other.

I'll stick with self-serving cnut, thank you. I've worked bloody hard for what I've got, taken risks, fallen on my face once or twice, been kicked in the balls on occasion, but on the whole, I'm doing alright. Call me self serving if you like, but I did my time serving the Colours. A mutually beneficial relationship. The mob got the best years of my life, I got a very thorough preparation for success in civvy life. Win-win.

Voting labour or liberal would just make you stupid, conservative is a different ball game. You have to be a cnut to agree with their ideology, same goes with republicans in spamland.
Labour/libs at least try to do right by people, even if they do continually fail, I wouldn't personally vote for them.

But cons are simply cnuts of the earth that I wouldn't pee on if they were on fire, let them put it out for themselves, horrible horrible scummy cretins.

[Melchett01]

Voting labour or liberal would just make you stupid, conservative is a different ball game. You have to be a cnut to agree with their ideology, same goes with republicans in spamland.
Labour/libs at least try to do right by people, even if they do continually fail, I wouldn't personally vote for them.

But cons are simply cnuts of the earth that I wouldn't pee on if they were on fire, let them put it out for themselves, horrible horrible scummy cretins.

So, just out of interest, who would you vote for / have running the country?

[SRENNAPS]

Pious

Please stop using that word. There really is no need:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Thelma Viaduct]

So, just out of interest, who would you vote for / have running the country?

An octopus, I'd vote for an octopus that dipped in to a little food container from a choice of 2. Each container would represent a decision to be made.

At least the octopus would get the answer correct ~50% of the time.

Who would you vote for?

[Thelma Viaduct]

Pious

Please stop using that word. There really is no need:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

A cnut is a hole left on a tree from where a branch was cut.

I promise I won't use it again. But every con is one and everyone that votes for them are too.

Maybe not quite the same scum as Blair (He was a con in drag anyway), but definitely from the same septic tank.

[Roadster280]

Over the last 30 odd years and not having the brain of a goldfish, I have come to realise that all parties are the same. But I really would like you to justify and quantify your comment above after all that we have seen in the last several months from the present government.
And pleeeessssee don’t say it was because of the amount of debt the last government left us in, that really is becoming a bit of a lame excuse.

The amount of debt the last government left the UK in so immense that the lame excuses are all tired out. That, however, does nothing to address the fact that the UK has a truly crippling debt, that did not exist in 1997 when Labour came to power.

From a Defence perspective, there was a SDR in 1998. Then nothing. No strategic political direction, just muddling along in support of the US. No properly funded equipment programs, just a desire to keep the "British worker" in a job. What a ridiculous state of affairs.

Perhaps you do not recall the last days of the Callaghan Government in 1979. I do, and I was all of 11 or 12. Mountains of bin bags on the sports fields. Dead people not being buried. Power cuts. Constant strikes. A national disgrace.

I emigrated in 2005, so I'm well out of it. I live in "spamland", where there are only degrees of Conservatism. Long may that continue. When I visit the UK, I am embarrassed that it has got to the state that it has. A further national disgrace. Hopefully the Conservative government will get through its baptism of fire and put right some of the injustices of the last 14 years of political and financial holocaust.

[SRENNAPS]

Roadster280

To be honest, I don’t really disagree with anything you have said. Yes the country is in a mess, arguably left by the last Government. But I don’t believe for one minute that it would have been any different under any other party. People do need to stop being so blinkered by just blaming one party or the other. It’s a big world out there with many influences. Political decisions are generally based on these influences, but they are only made in the interest of the ruling party and not the country, irrespective of the long term implications of those decisions.

But what really disgusts me is what is happening to our armed forces at the moment. And “at the moment” it is happening under a Tory Government.

All of our politicians need a good kick up ar$e and stop being self-centred, headline grabbing, power mongering idiots who are all trying to be as famous as Winston Churchill or Margaret Thatcher. They just want their names written in the history books…….and will do whatever it takes to achieve it!

Regards

By the way, good luck with your life in “spamland”. I do think you made a good move.

[cazatou]

TOPBUNKER

First let me state that I was unaware of the demise of that gallant Soldier. You will note, however, that I am resident in rural France.

The phrase "The man from Kircaldy" came from a satirical magazine in reference to a certain Politician who used to reside at No 10 Downing Street after a disastrous spell as the resident at No 11 Downing Street. That phrase has been current for some considerable time.

If any offence has been caused to the relatives of the gallant soldier I unreservedly apologise.

[Tourist]

SRENAPS don't be a prissy cnut
This forum is supposed to be like a military crewroom. We swear in them, and dont generally encourage wives and girlfriends. If they don't like it then they are free to take their delicate sensibilities elsewhere.
It is just a word.
Chaucer used it, Shakespeare danced around it so I feel free to use it.

[Tourist]

I nearly forgot radio 4 used it twice in one day!

[SRENNAPS]

Tourist

I don’t have any problems with normal swearing and certainly not in any crewroom. And if you knew me, you would know that.

However, this is a rather “open to the public” crewroom and viewed by many who like to judge the armed forces.

But if you feel you need to use what is considered the most distasteful four letter swear word, in public, then so be it. It’s not my cup of tea, but each to their own and we all have different standards.

[NutLoose]

SRENNAPS

My apology. I may have started off the rash of using the word in one of my posts last week.

[SRENNAPS]

My apology. I may have started off the rash of using the word in one of my posts last week.

Many thanks for that NutLoose, but I don’t blame you. Very much appreciated though:ok::ok:

[Wensleydale]

But cons are simply cnuts of the earth that I wouldn't pee on if they were on fire, let them put it out for themselves, horrible horrible scummy cretins.


I find that those who have to resort to personal insult have lost the arguement in fact.

[minigundiplomat]

Pious posts suggest he is a dyed in the wool commie, who was interestingly quiet as his Labour cohorts bankrupt the nation and precipitated the current defence funding crisis.

His posts often have very little aviation context and are abusive to anyone who doesn't share his ultra-left wing ideology. Perhaps his posts would be better recieved at the Guardian website, rather than Pprune?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Perhaps his posts would be better recieved at the Guardian website
Tut tut MGD. The Guardian may lean to the left but their readers are usually erudite and educated.

[Melchett01]

Perhaps he might feel more at home on ARRSE.

[Willard Whyte]

Tut tut MGD. The Guardian may lean to the left but their readers are usually erudite and educated.

In my experience they like to think they are. Delusion can be such a cruel mistress.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

OooH! You bitch, Willy ******.:p

[thunderbird7]

And there was me thinking that the 'Commies' were our friends now. I thought it was 'other types' that the Daily Mail ranters said were out enemies now ;)

Ooops! Thread drift again.

Dellusional? All talk and no trousers, more like. Unfortunately he threw his trousers away after learning the state had payed for them. Why should the PM have something provided for free, when a private company could make a fortune supplying No 10 with a pair several sizes bigger than he really needed and a big pair of shoes he never knew he needed, and to complete the outfit, a red wig and a red nose :rolleyes:

[Whenurhappy]

Sunfish (post 149). Perhaps I should have added good Grammar Schools to the list.
By the way, I went to a Comprehensive School and ended up at Cambridge. 'Right crowd yet no crowding'.,

Surely you must agree with the proposal - in principal I to shrink the bloated welfare state and making citizens, inter alia, more self-reliant?

But it strikes me that your profile names is particulalry apposite! My post certainly caught you 'hook, line and sinker!':ok:

[NutLoose]

By the way, I went to a Comprehensive School and ended up at Cambridge

You must have been a Navigator to get that lost then, hope you managed to find your way back. :p

[PhamousPhotographer]

Alex is rather apt today: Alex - Peattie & Taylor (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alexcartoon.com%2F&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F444252-pm-cameron-delusional-8.html)And today! (07:03)

It's getting to the stage where only the Diamond Bobs will be able to afford stuff like that - the MoD certainly can't.