Incriminating myself?

[2ndGen]

Hi all. I have been asked by a friend/ex-colleague to be a part of an 'action' for lack of a better word against an ex employer. My friend wants to alert the various governing bodies to this operator's negligence and complete disregard for safety (some quite serious safety breaches) and some fairly routine law-breaking, most importantly with regard to what i and others feel are those that are directly compromising safety. Also just general issues with working conditions/a complete lack of any flight and duty adherence (weeks and weeks without a day off etc). I understand that a certain amount of this is 'tolerated' in ga however this operator goes above and beyond. I know I'm being sketchy with the details but i don't want to identify any parties involved however there are other serious matters to consider.
My concern with being involved and providing the corroborating evidence is that during the course of my employment with this operator I ( as a brand spanking new cpl holder) had yet to grow a backbone and basically was brow beaten into doing the operator's (illegal) bidding. I was also very keen to please my employer as i guess that is just my nature and i wanted to do the right thing and also not make a bad name for myself. And nobody ever wants to dob people in. The few times I did put my foot down there was the conversation implying my suitability for the job.
So I let it all go. My question is what are the ramifications of me helping this friend by providing the evidence to back him up? I'm not entirely sure that I'll be protected under the umbrella of 'employer pressure' and while I'm aware there is an anonymous way to report does this reduce the credibility of my claims?
Many thanks in advance for your reply.



So my question is, is it possible there will be ramifications for me

[2ndGen]

Disregard last sentence using an iPhone and no idea how to scroll down to delete it :)

[harrowing]

You can use the edit post mode to change your input.

[Frank Arouet]

Whistleblowers Australia (http://www.whistleblowers.org.au/)

[Horatio Leafblower]

I was reading the Airtex decision a few weeks ago and there was a list of guys named in it as giving evidence. I know many of them and I have to say that I always felt those guys had a lot of integrity.

Seeing their names in the AAT decision only strengthened that feeling.

As an employer I would always prefer to sort out issues "then and there" but this employer seems "disinclined" to do so.

CASA is pushing the concept of "Just culture" on the industry and rightly so. If you add your weight to the reports you will need to be able to justify your actions - and in my view, being young and under pressure from an employer is acceptable defence. It is the organisational issues that set us up for an incident.

Go for it, I say.

[The Green Goblin]

You could use REPCON?

I say go for it. I'm sure you'd have a defense with 'coercion'.

While the CASA are very unpredictable in most things they do, I believe that they will be after the big fishes scalp rather than the minions. Just like Police will cut a deal with a petty drug dealer to catch the supplier.

I say go for it. At least you can sleep at night. We as Pilots need to stand together.

Good luck.

GG

[VH-XXX]

Repcon for sure.

Also, if YOU have broken the law though (pressure from your employer?), perhaps fill out one of those ATSB forms to protect yourself from prosecution. It's your get-out-of-jail-free card. You can only use them once in a few years though.

What did your legal studies at Uni tell you to do in this situation?

You can tell CASA what is going on. They'll harp on about how they will need to have your name so that you can go to court and testify against the offender, however if you give them enough evidence (without your name) they would be negligent to not act upon it. You'd have to give them something fairly significant though, like a departure time in advance for an offending pilot or aircraft and not just hear-say.

[The Voice]

I'd consider standing up and relaying your particular circumstances.

You would, I'm sure with proper guidance, be able to cite your particular issues under the subheadings of - the application of undue duress, right to command, employers duty of care, and possibly discrimination depending upon the circumstances.

[The Kelpie]

2nd Gen

You are not alone in this type of situation - especilly amongst new CPLs. All I can offer is advice on how I deal would deal with this dilemma.

You fortunately have the advantage that the issues in question have maybe not led to an accident already.

Consider this.

Place yourself in a situation 3 years from now, way after you had left that company and moved onto bigger and hopefully more professional things. You read on PPrune about an incident where a pilot at the company you used to work for had been tragically killed and that one of the contributary factors may have been one of the issues that you are presently in a quandry about eg fatigue.

Would you feel guilt that, had you supported you friend and spoken up at the time is it possible that this tragedy may not have happenned?

If your answer is yes - I would feel guilty, then you must speak up.

Within the Senate Inquiry we are asking industry to ignore their own interests, commercial or otherwise. As pilots we must do the same regardless of personal consequences if we are to achieve the common goal of improving safety within the Australian aviation industry.

Good Luck in making your decision.

The Kelpie

[beat ups are fun]

this sounds like the start to my aviation career. I'm sure we've all had our fair share of employer pressure. I'd say go for the REPCON. You wouldn't be asking for advice on this forum if you haven't got genuine concerns about the operation. It's companies like this that end up giving GA a bad name, Go for it!!

[onetrack]

2ndgen - You have two choices. If the choice you make now, ends up coming back to haunt you in the future, because a major incident happened, largely because you failed to speak out... could you live with it?

Life is full of unpleasant choices. If you're under pressure by an employer to take action/s that you basically KNOW are wrong... you have to seriously consider whether you wish to continue working within that style of operation.

Listen to the voice that says "do the right thing". 99% of us have a conscience that pricks us, when we know we are doing something morally wrong. It's the 1% that have no conscience, that leaves the other 99% of us, picking up the pieces.

[Falling Leaf]

I was also very keen to please my employer as i guess that is just my nature and i wanted to do the right thing and also not make a bad name for myself.

This is a sad indictment of the GA industry that young pilots are breaking the law to please their employers and to fit in with their peer group. Regardless of what some cowboys on these forums think, the laws are not particularly restrictive; they allow a lot of high risk activity to take place under a prescriptive based system that has not matured into an outcome suite of legislation that integrates risk management practice into the rule set.

Among the most effective protection these young pilots have to keep them safe are the rules, as deficient as they currently are. I wonder how much of the malaise in GA is a result of ignorance regarding FTDL, CAOs etc, or is everyone just knowingly breaking the law out there?

Definitely a REPCON as a first port of call.

[havick]

tread VERY carefully..

It sounds like some of your peers will be throwing you in the thick of it whether you like it or not. Keep in the back of your mind, if and when CASA investigates, what will they turn up with regard to your involvement (albeit in the past).

Personally I would suggest being on the right side of the fence (before the sh*t hits the fan). CASA are still within their rights to come after you even if you have given evidence (incriminating) that helps build their case against the operator.

Invest a small amount ($1500 or so) with a lawyer that can sit in on an interview with you and casa, they can broker a deal and ensure it's all in writing. Be frank and upfront with a lawyer if you decide to engage one, as they can't protect you if they don't know what has occured.

Just think of the amount of money you have invested in yourself thus far obtaining a licence, doing the hard yards out bush etc.. Paying for a lawyer to cover your ass is cheap insurance! At the very least they can point you in the right direction.

good luck

[FOD_Hazard]

The CP would have to be aware of all the concerns that you have raised. If he has been sitting by and letting this happen then he really needs a good kick in the arse! After all he is the one that is accountable to CASA for all flying operations conducted by the company and pilot rostering.

"I dont effen care, just fly" am i on the right track??? Hand picked young inexperienced CPs with very little time in the industry placed in charge of up to 18 pilots half of which are fresh out of nappies. CPs that historically hang round for 12-18 months before realising that it is their arse on the line should anything happen. When they suddenly decide to put their foot down and challenge the owner and book keeper about their bullying tactics they are shown the door...

[The Kelpie]

....or if you are in the union contact them as part of your membership fee every year provides you with Legal Assistance.

[Elevator Driver]

2ndGen,

I think I've been asked to take part in the same 'action'

As the operation takes place in a foreign country using all be it using at VH reg aircraft & supposedly Australian rules, I'd be surprised if casa we're the least bit interested & my concern is it maybe more damaging for the ex pilots of the operation than anyone else.

The fixed wing operation is in casa's eyes a private op (can't remember what the foreign country's rules are), so the duty time etc etc goes out the window & unfortunately it's not illegal to be an utter jerk....


I think the operators insurance company maybe more interested in previous events. But thats a another whole can of worms...

[2ndGen]

Thanks very much for all the responses very much appreciated. Seems repcon is the way to go however as elevator driver pointed out I am loath to incriminate previous pilots. I wasn't going to mention the overseas operator factor, however since you bring it up I'm fairly sure that being vh registered aircraft and the pilots operating under Aussie licenses I think they are obliged to look into it. I know they have shown interest before. The f&d prob is an issue I'm aware of however it seems to be open to so many different interpretations it's worth a mention.
To Havick, you make a good point there and certainly gave me
food for thought. I'm fairly sure I will be a part of this whether I like it or not. And FOD, cp and owner/operator are one and the same, so there is really no one else standing up to him!
I'm certainly not out to make this operator lose his livelihood, however if the reports I hear are true, something has to change before someone makes a fatal error. Cheers all.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Australian Federation of Air Pilots.

FRQ CB

[Seabreeze]

2ndgen,

If you decide to go ahead with your complaints you might also think about sending a copy of the info to Senator Nick Xenophon. He is apparently very concerned that people bringing genuine safety issues to the forefront do get immunity from CASA and do not get targeted by their employers.

He is a very influential person at the moment, and having him on side (or at least watching from the side) should prove very valuable.

I agree with most of the posts; when the rule breaking gets serious and risks lives, that's when you and your conscience have to make a decision. Looks like you are almost there at the moment.

Be aware that hearsay does not count as a legal argument; you will need to have documentary proof of a number of breaches of regs, and that the breaches are deliberate, not inadvertent.

Also, get some advice from aviation lawyers.

good luck

Seabreeze

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

In my experience, whistleblowers ALWAYS come off second best, inspite of the supposed legislated protection.

You need to weigh that up against what you might achieve.

Dr :8

[beat ups are fun]

And FOD, cp and owner/operator are one and the same, so there is really no one else standing up to him!

I've been stuck in a company with the same setup. It dosent work. The CP is there to ensure that all the rules and regs are adhered to. The owner is the guy that wants everything done for the cheapest price possible, wants everyone to work 60 hours a week and puts pressure on pilots to get the job done no matter what. When these people are one-in-the-same it raises a huge conflict of interest, and frankly something CASA needs to keep a close eye on.

[Nose wheel first]

Only 60 hours a week Beat ups??? You got it easy! The operator to which FOD is alluding would have you work 80 hours if he could!

[Centaurus]

In my experience, whistleblowers ALWAYS come off second best, inspite of the supposed legislated protection.

You need to weigh that up against what you might achieve.

Dr

Never a truer word. The aviation world is full of principled unemployed pilots

[VH-XXX]

Based on the information that you have already provided on here, don't be surprised if they have read this already.

[Waghi Warrior]

If the aircraft/s are operated overseas, you could also raise your concerns with the local authority's in the specific countries. I understand that they can throw them out if there are valid safety breaches and concerns, also if they are operating on a foreign AOC within that country things can get even more interesting. Just because an operator is flying in some country in the middle of nowhere doesn't mean they are immune to any laws, although I think some people think this way sometimes.

My advise, go for it and if you can get legal representation as mentioned here b4, do that to.

Good luck.