Well done to the Herc boys and girls

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

And all the others involved.

BBC News - RAF Hercules planes rescue 150 from Libya desert (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12588947)

[NURSE]

hear hear well done all involved

[backseatjock]

Once again the capabilities of the British armed forces is proven to a government and general public that simply does not seem to understand the need to sustain equipment levels and capabilities to cope with the unexpected.

No criticism of the British Army intended, but the wisdom of today’s near constant focus on armoured vehicles for Afghanistan ops, at the expense of naval and air assets, surely has to be questioned.

[Follow Me Through]

Well done to all those involved. Most impressive and slickly carried out. I would have expected nothing less from a world class AT fleet. Enjoy a beer and the plaudits that should flow. FMT

[neilmac]

What really really grates me is all those majority Brits in Libya, did it for tax free easy money. Now my feckin taxes being used to rescue them..............Then they complain!!!

[GrahamO]

Well done indeed to ALL the people on the aircraft - not just the air crew without whom the flight could not have happened but of course, those who most likely left the area, want into hostile territories without support to get the passengers back safely.

The public do understand, and respect what is achieved. We would just like people to stick to a budget for a change.

No criticism of the British Army intended, but the wisdom of today’s near constant focus on armoured vehicles for Afghanistan ops, at the expense of naval and air assets, surely has to be questioned. No it doesn't and yes you plainly are criticising the Army. Guys on the ground are dying due to lack of appropriate land vehicles. Guys in the air are not. I know where the public feels the money should go. When the guys are no longer dying on the ground, that would be a good time to discuss the potential for losses in other areas which are as yet, unaffected, and what assets they may require.

Well done to everyone involved, and I mean everyone.

[fincastle84]

Well done chaps, (& chapesses!).

I wonder if by chance the Tories might reconsider the defence cuts in the light of this well executed mission.

Duh, wishful thinking.:ugh:

[backseatjock]

GrahamO – I am most definitely NOT criticising any of our armed forces and least of all the British Army. The point I was trying to make, clearly not well, was that we all deserve better from our national government which has, for too many years, neglected investment in equipment and capabilities.

This is not about current government policy, more about years of under investment.

Today we see decisions, albeit necessary ones, taken in response to grave situations that we find ourselves in and all too often as a result of casualties in theatre. Better strategic planning, rather than reactionary actions, is what we all deserve. Once the capability goes it becomes almost impossible to quickly bring it back!

[Dengue_Dude]

Phew, that was lucky, we still had a couple of aircraft left . . .

Remember, in the mid 80s, being positioned in Akronelli awaiting a flight into Libya with several other TS crews.

Fortunately, all we had to do was inbibe the noble vino Kokinelli and ingest the ubiquitous kebab . . . then cope with the headache.

Well done guys, at least you got to do it.

[rockridge]

Well done to all services involved, this would have took a lot of planning..very well executed. Chuffed.

[fallmonk]

Well done to all involved directly or indirectly .
Once again it proves while we may have idiots in charge. the people on the ground(air) at the sharp end are still the best.
Hope someone buys you a cold beer for this :ok:

[Fly off the handle]

Makes you proud, doesn't it.:D

[NURSE]

but yet again the military have created good news and the politicians will ride the wave accept the praise on behalf of the services and convince themselves that it was their brilliant leadership that saved the day.
Then on monday they will go back to their desks breathe a sigh of relief and sign the necessary orders to scrap Cumberland and York and stab the services in the back. It doesn't matter which hue they are from. Until this country faces a test and fails that is when things will change. It took the defeat of the Marines on the Falkland islands and South Georgia to make the Thatcher govt change its descisions. The Image that did it was that of the marines face down in the road with the grinning buzzo tactico round them.

[Grimweasel]

Well done to all involved and especially Team Lyneham! Such a shame that a Stn with so much glorious history will be consigned to the scrap heap this Summer :(

[andrewn]

Agreed with others - Well Done to all involved both in providing both direct and indirect support.

And, yes, you would hope that this operation, as well as recent events in general, would act as a timely reminder to our glorious leaders that a balanced range of capabilities is required.

I wont hold my breath though....

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Do we have the fighters left to provide top cover, I wonder?
Doesn't take 3 hours to get to Malta/Sardinia. Anybody in a pointy jet sitting there in case?

[TBM-Legend]

Great job....Herc and Special Forces boys and girls:D

Also the mighty C-130, 56 years in the making and still a winner. Long live the King..

[GrahamO]

Reference was made to 'specially equipped Hercules' in the papers.

Anyone know what was special ? Just more seats ?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Sneaky-beaky dark stuff I expect - I don't think Arabs fly at night, at least not to any great effect.

[ukmil]

just these in this thread, having defence aids fitted

FighterControl • Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - Malta Luqa 25-26th February, 2011 (http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=28367)

[Dengue_Dude]

The 'special' is simple.

They had TWO lumpy boxes each with an extra Mars bar as it takes a lot of energy and effort to keep the ring piece 'sixpence' instead of 'dinner-plate'.

You never know, perhaps they called up 'Cat's Eyes Cunningham' to help . . .

[Jimlad1]

Isnt the special fit designed to carry all the dictaphones and manuscripts that the SF carry with them for their next book?

Fun listening to the Sky News security analyst making out that we've got AC130s flying top cover!

[Shack37]

Well done guys and gals, especially under the coalition handicap.:D

[captain_gash]

I've no doubt that at some point the boys and girls involved will grace this page and i just wanted to say good job. I seem to remember a few months ago when SDSR was being drafted some government monkeys talking about "tomorrows defence challenges" "and flexible" when all along it was an obvious "defence is an easy kill for a few billion" i wonder how many briefing papers will have had this scenario in it? Goes to show they have no idea what will come next. What is the point in paying taxes if you can’t defend your borders / interests? Defence first, i hate to say it but i think history may well teach us a lesson again soon, i hope we are ready for it? once again congrats on a job well done, i feel an outbreak of moral surfacing havent felt that in a while

[Final 3 Greens]

Very well done to the RAF et al.

Perhaps also a kind word for Malta Airport ATC, who are efficiently managing a lot of extra movements.

To say nothing of the Maltese population, who are largely supportive, despite potential retaliation by the regime against some Libyans on the islands, with the risk of colateral damage.

[4fitter]

some of the boys and girls involved know their efforts are appreciated !

[snafu]

Well done to all involved....but I'd hate to think what the Libyan equivalent of South Cerney is like!! Presumably they had Movers to make sure that the evacuees all had to turn up 40 miles away from the aircraft 6 hours beforehand as well!!;)

[Roadster280]

Well done to all. I am sure that there is quite a bit of detail that isn't going to come out in public, and long may that be so. This was clearly not a simple AT flight.

Per Ardua.

[Phileas Fogg]

So the closing of RAF Luqa was a good decision then?

[RetiredSHRigger]

Well done to all concerned, :ok:

[fincastle84]

So the closing of RAF Luqa was a good decision then?

I was there at the time. The then Maltese government were glad to see the back of us. At the time they were busily climbing into bed with.............................. Col Gaddafi!!!

What goes around..........

Well done to all involved in the rescue.

[sitigeltfel]

Do we have the fighters left to provide top cover, I wonder?
Doesn't take 3 hours to get to Malta/Sardinia. Anybody in a pointy jet sitting there in case?

There are a couple of spare Mirages sitting in Malta doing nothing ;)

[BOAC]

As 4fitter says, we can be assured our message is received. A stunning success, well done - and our thoughts to those still 'in theatre'.

It did, however, give me no joy to see 'the fox' on TV making 'the announcement' - he was either relishing his moment of glory in having got the SDSR 'just right':ugh: or sweating like a pig in case what was probably an organisational shambles at his level became public under journos' questioning.

Thank the Lord it is finally down to the military to implement all this.

[high spirits]

BOAC,
Fox is just crowing because he has made Hague look incompetent and will probably get his job at the next reshuffle:ugh: Nobody wants Defence as a politician - bit like being the Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher in Harry Potter - no-one ever lasts more than a year in post. I wonder how much the MOD will charge the FCO for the use of their hardware and expertise(even though it all comes out of the same budget in the end).

Well done to the hercs(from a rotary mate) enjoy the headlines in todays papers.:D

[Perrin]

As a ex USAF serviceman I know how much work it has been for the people that will not get into the papers. Very well done boys I was in the other war zone in Asia and found the public did not give credit to the armed forces and its going that way here (I now live in Scotland).
One question where do they get these *{**! they put as head of the MOD?
ie Fox,Reid etc. Well done again!!!:D

[billynospares]

Top work Albert and crews (ground and air) doing what they do best :ok:

[Non Emmett]

Well done all concerned, not over yet but as usual, when it gets tough we rely on our servicemen and women and they don't let us down. Despite frequent comment in these pages regarding the lack of interest and comitment by the civilian population, I don't really think that is a universal trend, many of my age group are truly interested in the future of our armed forces.

Just a thought and not trying to introduce a note of dissent - I would have thought the Special Operations folk at Mildenhall might well have been involved in all this plus the USN has significant assets down in the Med afloat and at Sigonella. There's mention this morning of Hungary getting involved today and, I think Romania, and even the Irish Air Corps has stepped in but I have heard virtually nothing about American help.

[TEEEJ]

240ZtgpTE0U

TJ

[Uncle Ginsters]

I guess the only drawback of rescuing so many is all those handshakes required back at base:ok:

Sweet work.:D

[Runaway Gun]

Where was the rescued dog that was highlighted?

[BOAC]

RG - I believe it 'embarked' on the Herc a few days ago ex TIP. (If previous 'diplomatic' flights are anything to go by - for those who have long memories - we probably flew out the UK Ambassador's garden shrubs and tubs too:))

Anyone know - did we have to 'beg' air cover from the Septics? Not sure we could spare any T-bags that far away from home. I bet Ark Royal and mates sucked their teeth.:ugh:

[Brian 48nav]

Well done guys - I knew you didn't need us even 38 yrs ago! Apart from the beer of course.

There was a BBC radio interview this morning with a guy who had just arrived back at Gatwick, and he had nothing but praise for the effort put in by the FCO guys.

Elements of the Government did foul up but at least the PM had the grace and humility to say sorry. That's quite a change - after all none of us are perfect. After 13 years of lies and cock-ups it was so refreshing!

[Kilonovember52]

Yep well done to everyone involved we are proud of you.

Typical when HM Government gets in the **** who do they always rely on to get them out of trouble. It's a pity they don't give the same level of support to HM forces that HM forces is expected to give them! When will they realise that they need to support the forces and maintain a lot of the capability they are getting rid of. I was watching Ark Royal on Discovery yesterday and was interested to see how the Ark was diverted from her primary task to act as a big passenger ferry when thousands of brits were stranded on the otherside of the channel when the volcanic ash cloud struck. Next time this happens they won't have an Ark Royal.

[air pig]

Having listened to the inane witterings of the Sky news so called security correspondent, following the latest mission into Libya, who is based on the border between Libya and Tunisia, how the hell does he know what is going on inside Libya as regarding on going military operations.

A period of STFU would be more than appropriate as there are possibly people on the ground out in the desert. :=:=:=

Congratulations to all concerned and come home safe.

Regards

Air pig

[Avionker]

And they've gone back for more it would appear.

BBC News - Royal Air Force rescues 150 in second Libya rescue (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12592849)

[ORAC]

Sky reporting 3 more C-130 missions to evacuate 150 more covilians, all successfully completed.

[Exnomad]

I kept mailing Mr Cameron, Fox & Co, saying that is was ridiculous we could not afford 2.7% of GDP for defence, when the majority of government department budgets were not within that in terms of accuracy. Did not get a reply

[NURSE]

BBC has reported 1 aborted landing and being shot at

BBC News - UK military rescue plane 'shot at' in Libyan desert (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12592919)

[Noah Zark.]

Please excuse this intrusion by a lowly civvy, but as a supporter of our armed forces I would just like to add my own "well done" to everyone involved in the Libyan extractions. Seeing it on the telly news makes me very proud to have you folks looking after me and mine.
If I may just add a comment with regards to post #4, from backseatjock, in which it is stated, quote - 'the general public does not seem to understand the need to sustain equipment...etc. etc.', I think that if a straw poll of the general public were to be held, I think you would find that they do indeed understand the need.
But what good is that when those in power refuse blindly to to acknowledge that the path they have taken is an extremely dangerous one?
The level of expertise and dedication in our armed forces is unparalleled. The same is to be said about most of our defence industry, and indeed everyday manufacturing industry in this country.
But, once thrown away and disgarded, it is gone. It cannot be called back into being on a mere whim. It is gone. And we may yet rue the day. :(
But, as I set out to say -Well done you folks! :ok:

[kiwibrit]

Excellent work.:ok:

[DME MILOS]

Good Arrows gentlemen :cool:

[Trim Stab]

As I mentioned on another thread, I hope the RAF are charging the oil companies fair commercial rates for this service, otherwise it is an unfair subsidy to the oil companies who are too irresponsible and tight to look after their employees properly. Responsible companies paid to get their people out using commercial operators (we did one charter) - why should their less-responsible competitors get a free subsidy from the RAF?

Also, it undermines commercial operators (like us) who are losing possible charter work because oil companies are now expecting the RAF to evacuate their people for free.

Moreover, did the RAF pay the landing fee and a handling agent? If not, their flights are also undermining the local economy at a time when they also need the business.

I hope that the decision to use the RAF was taken only after commercial flights were genuinely impossible, and that it was not just a kneejerk reaction to a few moaning **unnecessary language** on BBC 24 with a satellite phone complaining about blocked toilets in their compound. The more measured interview with an oil engineer from Redcar on the BBC last night seemed to suggest that there was not much problem at all at the airfield that they were evacuated from.

Well done the RAF for providing this service - but please send the bill to the oil companies - otherwise you are taking our business!

[SCAFITE]

Found these pictures on a UK model Forum very interesting and very close up of the chaps and their special bits on the Herc

Libyan Air Force moving to Malta??? - Page 3 - The Diecast Aviation Web Site and Forum (http://forums.diecast-aviation.eu/showthread.php?t=14685&page=3)

Good job this operation was not hush hush :sad:

[Trim Stab]

the two Hercs involved were painted black


And what does that prove? I have no doubt that the MOD took considerable precautions before sending in their aircraft, after all they could hardly just ring up the handling agent and ask for a sitrep (which is what we do). But the fact that they took due precaution does not mean that commercial flights were impossible.

I standby to be corrected, but I would like to see some evidence that the airfield used by the RAF for the evacuations was closed to commercial traffic. Whatever the case, the RAF should bill the oil companies concerned, and preferably a lot more than they would have paid to use commercial charter flights.

[Grabbers]

Some points

1. The RAF has no C130's painted black. Granted they may look a little grubby but they're not painted that way.

2. TS, I take it your company has contacted the MoD mentioning loss of earnings and asking for suitable recompense. Would your company have posted a 'clippy' (think Olive of off On The Buses) with a card reader to bill pax as they embarked? Or are you just seeking a bite here?

3. TS, If you were so keen to become involved perhaps you should have joined the RAF in the first place. :)

[Avionker]

Trim stab

On the BBC news website there are reports that one of the RAF Hercules had shots fired at it, and that it was possibly hit. I think under those circumstances withholding the airports landing fee and bypassing the handling company is justified don't you?

Maybe that's the kind of business you're after though. Hope your insurance company is understanding.

[Trim Stab]

Grabbers - I fly a bizjet, so we are contracted by companies, rather than individual pax, and are paid in advance.

We often get charters from oil companies and we are still open for business to fly to Libya.

I only get paid if I fly (ts and cs have been badly eroded in bizjet world the past few years) and so I really do want the work. It is not a question of me "wanting to be involved" - if the RAF are doing this for free then it is seriously unfair to us.

StopStart - I never claimed to be in the know about the situation at the airfield they landed in - but I do know that there are plenty of airfields in Libya still open to commercial traffic. Indeed, are any closed? But whatever the situation, while commercial flights can still go into Libya, the RAF should be charging at least full commercial fees - and preferably they should be charging a premium to stop freeloading oil companies getting subsidies at taxpayer's expense.

[Strobin Purple]

Seriously, only on Pprune could a thread like this degenerate so quickly into that sort of facile argument against what our C130 brethren have just done. Landing fees and handling agents!!!! What's more, I bet they had the butty boxes on the cheap too!.

What a chimp!. There really should be some sort of minimum IQ/spelling/grammar legislation over PC/Laptop purchase and access to the internet to protect us from insightful attitudes such as Trim Stab's.

Well done chaps. Nice to see PG's gurning mug all over Sky last night, desperately trying not to laugh.

[Grabbers]

TS

I don't want to get bogged down in the role of the RAF and doctrine, but, broadly speaking are HM Armed Forces here to do as bid by our elected politicians in order to maintain the security of British citizens throughout the world?

Look at it from the oil companies POV. If you wanted to protect profit margins that may be eroded by evacuating your personnel from your infrastructure, you could exaggerate the situation on the ground to your Chief Exec or whomever. They then may decide that the insurance loading from a private company may be too large from a random bizjet company and ask for Govt assistance.

Have your company made representation to HMG? I acknowledge your stance but this thread surely is to discuss the act of the crews and support personnel. I take it you have a professional respect for fellow professionals in a similar line of work?

Oh, one more thing. Who said all landings took place on established airfields/runways? :ok:

[Trim Stab]

What a chimp!. There really should be some sort of minimum IQ/spelling/grammar legislation over PC/Laptop purchase and access to the internet to protect us from insightful attitudes such as Trim Stab's.




I can tell you must be in the military, as you are clearly completely out of touch with the real world. Do you actually know how a commercial airport operates? If Libya is to stay on its feet, it is imperative that the local economy keeps working. Landing fees might seem inconsequential to you, but they will be very important to some Libyan workers and their families. You probably don't understand such things though.

I expect the RAF did pay landing fees, as I would expect there are people in charge who are a bit more intelligent than you...

[MrWomble]

Trim Stab, only a minor glance at this morning's media and "in-the-know" forums would show things are happening on these flights which your bizjet insurers would be the first to tell you to avoid, unless you are able to surpress SAFIRE from your cabin?

[Trim Stab]

How do you know the ground-fire wasn't because the aircraft was obviously military? There are no reports of widespread fighting around Benghazi now. The indications are that it is fully under control of the opposition. The opposition would have no reason to fire upon evidently civilian aircraft, as reports suggest that they are doing everything they can to keep their economy and infrastructure running.

As I said earlier, it is excellent that the RAF are able to do this if it is genuinely militarily necessary. But if they are doing it for partly for publicity reasons for HMG (as Stopstart alludes), then they should be charging full commercial rates to the oil companies and paying landing fees to the locals, just like commercial operators do.

[Phileas Fogg]

Trim Stab,

How a commercial airport operates!!!

The first 2 C130's operated in/out of a disused airstrip which can be clearly seen as disused on Google Earth and without any ground equipment/support, ATC, fire cover etc.

Now, as a commercial operator, what sort of time frame, particularly over a weekend, do you reckon it would take to acquire the necessary dispensations to operate in/out of a disused airstrip that needed to be cleared by the locals prior to the aircraft arriving and what sort of time frame, and at what cost, do you reckon it would take to have the appropriate (a non airfield, no ATC, no fire cover, in a location of civil unrest etc.) operator insurances in place?

[Avionker]

Trim stab

These people were picked up from desert airstrips next to oil company installations, not Benghazi International airport. Who owns/operates these airstrips do you think? I suspect the oil companies do.

I don't know if you have ever served in the military in any capacity, your profile doesn't say that you have. Of course mine doesn't either but I did serve 15 years in the RAF as an Avionics tech.

If you have no military experience then perhaps it would be better if you refrained from posting on this topic. Your major gripe appears to be that you feel that you are losing potential work due to the actions of the RAF.

To that end perhaps you can answer the following questions:-

1) How many pax can you get on your aircraft?

2) How would your company go about assessing the situation on the ground, whether it was safe to operate into the area in question or not?

3) If on arriving at the airfield the situation had changed and armed personnel approached your aircraft offering violence if you did not co-operate what would you do?

4) Why do you think these aircraft had SF personnel on board?

Bear in mind that many members of the British armed forces face an uncertain future due to the recent SDSR. All members have seen their T&C's eroded over recent years, us civilians are not unique in that respect.

You say you only get paid when you fly? Well I am a contract aircraft mechanic, I only get paid when I work. In recent times jobs have been thin on the ground as the recession has hit everyone. You, me and the RAF.

In short, this thread is here so people can show their appreciation of the crews who flew, and the personnel who supported, these sorties. If you feel that you can't do that then why post here at all?

And how will the Libyan economy survive this brazen attempt by the RAF to undermine it? I imagine their oil reserves might help in that respect.

Now dry your eyes.

[AR1]

Local paper reports Hercules damaged by small arms fire.
Lyneham crew shot at in rescue mission in Libya (From The Wiltshire Gazette and Herald) (http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/8879121.Lyneham_crew_shot_at_in_rescue_mission_in_Libya/)

[cazatou]

Trim Stab

If we follow your reasoning to a logical conclusion then the Military SAR Helicopter crews in UK would have to demand a credit or debit card from persons in distress prior to conducting a rescue.

[NutLoose]

Well done guys.....:D:D

noted you appeared to be carrying spare wheels just in case....... bet that would have been a record wheel change if needed. :ok:


Landing fees...... I could see that one..... Hello this is the RAF, we are planning an unannounced clandestine operation in to your country to rescue some EXPats tonight, do you have a handling agent please?

I Wonder if the Israeli's called Idi Amin ahead to ask permission when they visited Entebbe LOL

[Wrathmonk]

Trim Stab ..... possibly arriving at a FSTA crewroom near you .... soon!:E

[SHfairy]

Did anyone else spot on sat nights 10 pm news a momentary flash of the 3rd UK Mil' type involved?

[Dengue_Dude]

Not one of those push-me-pull-you wokka things was it?

I mean, they've not even got wings - dammit man!

Well done to all those concerned, especially the ones on standby for Option 2 (whatever it happened to be), rarely do these things happen without a contingency plan which has to be manned too.

What are the rations like out of Luqa these days? They used to do great ham - and considering where they were going, quite appropriate :D

[Trim Stab]

Avionker - your arguments are all rational if it is true that they were evacuated out of unprepared strips under genuine threat from hostile locals. I'm not very convinced about the severity of the alleged ground threat though - I suspect that if it was as high as is being reported by the some, then there would have been a much more complex ground operation to secure the landing area than there appears to have been (just putting a few SF on the ground first to provide int is not securing an airfield, as I'm sure you know).

Moreover, these oil company compounds do actually have their own security and would be well able to defend themselves against the threat from looters or gangs of thugs. Admittedly, they would be outgunned by a well-armed and organised militia force, but it seems from reports from evacuees that the newly organised local militias were offering to protect the oil installations - after all it is in their own interests to keep the economy running.

BTW, our insurance was valid for Libya last time we checked a few days ago. On occasions in the past when we have had to pay a premium to visit other areas with civil unrest we passed the cost on to the client. We would definitely still consider charters to anywhere in Libya that our aircraft performance allows us to go. After all, it is nothing like as dangerous as flying into Baghdad used to be, and as you know civilian aircraft were operating into there throughout the occupation, even after some were hit (eg DHL Airbus in 2003).

[Trim Stab]

Trim Stab ..... possibly arriving at a FSTA crewroom near you .... soon!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


Wrathmonk, I saw on the Libya NFZ thread that you previously agreed that the RAF should be charging the oil companies for the service - I take it you are one of the wishy-washy follower types who changes his mind according to the general flow of an argument?

So do you, or do you not, still think that the oil companies should be billed?

And I would never get into FSTA for a variety of reasons! But I hope that they employ a few pilots who have an understanding of how commercial operations work (unlike most on this thread), who have been to places like Libya before (unlike most on this thread).

[Grabbers]

Am I the only one thinking Trim Stab may be deliberately posting obtuse assumptions and theories purely to try and learn something? :=

[Avionker]

Trim stab

BBC News - Libya unrest: Your experiences (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12567358)

This is what I am basing some of my arguments on. Hardly seems like all these people feel very secure does it?

[Evanelpus]

Getting back to the original theme of this topic, well done to all concerned.

I wonder how many of the voices of doom here would moan if they were in a similar position. They would be only too pleased to see a Herk coming over the horizon to rescue them.

[Roadster280]

Minutes of COBRA committee:

OK chaps, it's all going pear shaped in Libya, we've about 1000 people to get out, about half of whom are in the desert. Civvy t***s refused to fly and left us in the cack, so it's all hands on deck for a mil operation.

RN - HMS Cumberland already on task, HMS York taking on stores to assist. We'll have a TLAM sub on hand too in case it gets out of hand, but let's keep that one under our hat.

RAF - They aren't playing ball, so it's going to have to be a forced infil & exfil. We'd better take spares in case it's no fun on the ground. They still have some semblance of air defences, so let's have the southern European countries provide top cover. Germans are tagging along with a couple of Transalls for their guys. Doubtless an AWACS required to coordinate it all".

Army - We've already got SF troops on the ground, but we'll take another dozen or so on the aircraft. Oh, and we'll probably need a C17 for the ****load of ammo we'd like to take. We'll also need a wokka or two in case it goes a bit Pete Tong in the ulu.

Obscure Treasury official - "Has anyone given any thought to the landing fees to be paid at the desert strips?"

"We've got two warships, the SAS, and half a dozen RAF aircraft, not to mention the other nations. It's big boys rules, and you want to dick about looking for a cashier's window?"

[Wrathmonk]

Trim Stab

One thing I would never do is follow you. Anywhere. Ever. Nothing personal.

And my one-liner had nothing to do with my view on payment. However, I still believe the FCO / MOD (note - government departments, not individual services - there were more than just RAF involved;)) should be reimbursed for the evacuations (as was the case for those rescued from Egypt - £600 a head if runour is to be believed). If Ascot managed to negotiate a discount on landing fees at Malta all credit to them - make a change for the MOD not to be excessively charged. Who pays that final bill - individual or company - is up to the T&Cs / morals of that particular individual/company.

I would also suspect the military option is far more flexible, in many many ways, in its approach to getting the job done.

All my own views.

Guess you're going to be a right 'barrack room lawyer' / jobsworth at Brize .....

Roadster280 :D

[Wrathmonk]

tax payer

or not....!;)

[Trim Stab]

Wrathmonk - my point is that the oil companies should pay for evacuations. These companies pay big money to former SIS and FCO personnel to give strategic security advice at head office level, and also big money to former military officers to provide tactical security planning at local level. This advice covers all aspects of contingency planning for exactly this sort of emergency. Part of that planning is to have a budget and a plan for emergency evacuation.

The more responsible oil companies started evacuating non-essential personnel some time ago, using commercial flights (we did one). Other companies have not - even on those BBC witness reports linked to by Avionker, you will see an example of a company that has chosen not to evacuate its personnel, as it considers them "essential". It is completely wrong to reward companies who have not acted responsibly by giving them free evacuation assets, when other more responsible companies have paid for them.

I am all for the RAF providing a service when it is commercially impossible - my argument is simply that it should not be FREE. These companies should be billed - and penalised with a heavy bill - for not having used commercial flights when it was still possible.

It would also be wrong for the RAF to provide free evacuation for PR/political purposes from airfields that are still open to commercial operators, if there are still commercial operators willing and able to fly into them.

The only time the RAF should be doing free evacuation flights is when it is commercially impossible and it is militarily imperative.

[Phileas Fogg]

Trim Stab,

How do you know these evacuations will be for free, do you appreciate the size of the bill that USA presented to Kuwait some years ago?

As far as I'm concerned, as a UK taxpayer, I'd prefer my money be spent on aircraft and personnel I am already paying for rather than those aircraft and personnel sit idle whilst further expenditure is incurred paying for someone else's aircraft and personnel, i.e. I'm already paying these peoples salaries and I'm not prepared to pay your salary also!!!

Hopefully the MoD will spend so much money in the region they won't be able to afford the 200 million required to scrap the Nimrods. :)

[Wrathmonk]

Trim

Funnily enough I almost agree 100%;).

The companies will always try to get VFM and, in theory (according to the FCO) the MOD is only used 'as a last resort' so lowest bidder wins! Where the RAF Hercs and associated pers carried out their rescue missions were, IMHO, 'commercially unviable'. It is arguable whether the HMS CUMB rescue could have been 'let' to commercial contract but, at the end of the day, the job got done (probably far quicker) and, as far as I understand, all who wanted to leave have done so.

Enough of the thread drift. A good job, in potentially very difficult circumstances, by all 3 services as well as the commercial sector. Let's hope what really happened, both in the desert and in the corridors of Whitehall, will be out in the public domain sooner rather than later.

[Chainkicker]

It would also be wrong for the RAF to provide free evacuation for PR/political purposes from airfields that are still open to commercial operators, if there are still commercial operators willing and able to fly into them.
The only time the RAF should be doing free evacuation flights is when it is commercially impossible and it is militarily imperative.

So what you are really saying then TS, is that you should get the job and make your wodge, unless its too dodgy, in which case, send the military in to do it?

Good job all round by Albert IMO :ok:

[Sook]

FiveLive is reporting that one of the pilots was hit in the helmet by small arms fire. Second time in the recent past that helmets have stood up to small arms rounds, I think an additional well done is required for the engineers behind them!

[txdmy1]

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::D:D:D:D:D:D
best regards to all involved

[Trim Stab]

So what you are really saying then TS, is that you should get the job and make your wodge, unless its too dodgy, in which case, send the military in to do it?

No, not at all.

All I am saying is that 2 Group should be more commercially aware (as I argued in a thread about six months ago). They should put in place guidelines for degrading civil security situations, whereby they charge for their services when in direct competition with civilian operators, do not subsidise incompetent companies who do not put in professional evacuation plans for their staff, and only initiate free humanitarian flights when civilians are in direct danger through no fault of their own, and there is no alternative commercial means to evacuate them.

These guidelines should be published for not only the benefit of commercial operators, and likely commercial clients such as oil companies(and their insurance) but also for politicians. If these guidelines were published, it would avoid "trial by tabloid" which occured in this instance, whereby politicians are cornered into taking action at the taxpayers expense.

It would also avoid the ludicrous situation where - according to StopStart who is a Herc truckie at BN - that the RAF "justify" these flights because it is good practice for the crews! If 2 Group had a commercial arm, they would have plenty of practice flying all over the world - and probably in more modern aircraft than they have. At least FSTA is a step in the right direction.

By the way, I saw on the news that the Libyan opposition have apologised for shooting at the Herc - as I supposed in my earlier post they actually mistook it for a Ghadaffi aircraft.

And for the prats who are laughing at my question about whether the RAF paid landing fees - it just shows how far out of touch with reality you are.

I have no idea where the RAF landed - perhaps they landed in a remote desert strip, without prior permission, having previously secured the strip with ground forces. In which case, it could be regarded as an act of war bu the Libyan regime, by any allied states, and indeed possibly by the UNSC.

Possibly they landed at a private airstrip, owned by an oil company who invited them in, in order to get free evacuation of their staff when, if they were a professionaly run company, they would have paid commercial operators to evacuate their non-essential staff when it was still possible, and would have a decent contingency plan to protect and victual their essential staff for an appropriate time.

Or perhaps they landed at a commercial airstrip - in which case if the RAF didn't pay landing fees then they are the same level as some thieving commercial operators who run away without paying, thereby stealing a competive advantage from commercial operators who do pay fees, and also depriving airport staff of their living.

[Uncle Ginsters]

TS,
Whilst i broadly agree that companies should, somehow, be levied for the services provided, the commercial option was superceded by events in this case.

Yes, you may have been offered a contract to Sabha, but the Scottish oilworker on perma-transmit to the BBC wasn't screaming for his company to go get him was he?!?

You're beginning to sound like a troll - credit were it's due...well done all those involved:p

[RileyDove]

Trim Stab -interesting thoughts on landing an aircraft in the desert being akin to an act of war! I guess some of the residents of Northern Ireland who's relatives were killed in the troubles by Libyan supplied weapons would have similar thoughts towards the Libyan regime -possibly the widows of Lockerbie might also feel the same! I personally dont give two hoots where the RAF lands its aircraft in Libya -fantastic for the crews to get some training and great that Malta is supporting the effort.

So in essence sad that Gaddafi isnt getting his landing fees but not so sad for the various nations who have suffered at the hands of his state sponsored terrrorism -long may the flights continue!

[lurkposition]

Well done everyone. It shows that the work we did in 1982 has not been forgotten. Gongrats to all.

[Phileas Fogg]

Trim Stab,

On Google Earth find the town of 'Awjilah' then scan, not very far, in an 8:30 to 9 o'clock direction to an airstrip identified, on GE, as 'Oxy A103'.

Any idea what the big white 'X' painted on the runway surface suggests?

[Avionker]

Does the big 'X' mark the spot where Trim Stab was hoping to find his treasure, but those pesky Herc boys stole it.....?

[NutLoose]

I have to admit I am also impressed with the "rebels" offering an apology for shooting at our Herc, stating they thought the Aircraft was one of Gaddafi's...

[TBM-Legend]

Libya was once a monarchy. Perhaps the UK could 'lend' them Prince Charles and Queen Camilla as part of a foreign aid package. That would help reduce the civil list costs!:rolleyes:

[AR1]

In which case, it could be regarded as an act of war bu the Libyan regime [sic]
Lets be frank, they've (the regime) got other things on thier minds at the moment..
TS in case you havent grasped the concept yet, the RAF (not uniquely in the world of military avation) doesn't just do things like this on a whim. They are authorised, or directed from above and once the order has been given, (by the government) they carry it out. Perhaps if you are sufficiantly disgusted by the event, or have any further questions regarding the payments of landing fee's or the impact that 3 flights may have had on the regions economy you should write to your MP.

[Madbob]

TS

Can you tell us whether the insurers of the aircraft you operate would be willing to permit them to be used in the way you envisage? I suspect that cover would be either be very expensive or unobtainable.

These are not of course issues for military hardware or HMG. Also how would the company cover personal injury/death to any employees should things go wrong?

Might this have been part of the "tech delay" at LGW when the FCO was trying to charter a B757?

MB

[cats_five]

It's easier to search GE on Oxy A103. Takes you staight to it.

[NutLoose]

Germans are at it now as well

Secret military mission into Libya - Africa - IOL | Breaking News | South Africa News | World News | Sport | Business | Entertainment | IOL.co.za (http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/secret-military-mission-into-libya-1.1033275)


Separately, Germany said its air force had evacuated 132 people also from the desert during a secret military mission on Saturday.
German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said Sunday that two German military planes landed on a private runway belonging to the Wintershall AG company, evacuating 22 Germans and 112 others and flying them to the Greek island of Crete

[philrigger]

;)

Libya was once a monarchy.......

Until Mad Gabby got into power it was a posting for British forces. That's what is needed. Another sandy place to send our troops to !

[NutLoose]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/JWFColourElAdemLibya1965001a.jpg

"Gaddafi? who??? Uprising??? don't look at as us, this thing is so slow it's taken us decades to get here "

RAF Transports last visit? El Adem Libya 1965

[BOAC]

cats five - how do they get crop circles there?

[flipster]

Bravo Ascoteers!

Well done to all - in the air and on the ground. But for these high-calibre sky- gods and sky-godesses, probably, it was 'just another walk in the park'.......?

Fly safe,

flipster

[Motleycallsign]

El Adam was still open in April '66 Nutloose. We flew there from Akronelli in a 70 Sqn Hastings.
Wasn't it the case that one of the first commercial aircraft due to fly into Libya was 'tech'? and wasn't the 'tech' reason that the crew refused to operate into country, allegedly? Bring on the brave military yet again........well done chaps shades of '79 and the rescue of Embassy staff from Teheran....

[4mastacker]

ISTR off-loading kit from El Adem during a tour at Fairford during 1969/70. It was being brought back on the then, very new Hercules. I believe we were asked to leave El Adem following a bit of a local disturbance led by someone called Gaddafi. Now there's another bit of aggro going on, the same bloke is at the centre of it and the Hercs are pulling people out of it - history does seem to repeat itself.

[dagama]

Re: Post 99.

Good to see that the Sqn was starring in Libya in 1965! Well done everybody.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

"GOOD SHOW" to the Lyneham (SF) guys... it's, perhaps, just as well that Libya wasn't a "trillion" miles away for otherwise we might have needed a Nimrod for SAR coverage!

TCF

[XV277]

Did anyone else spot on sat nights 10 pm news a momentary flash of the 3rd UK Mil' type involved?

Do you mean the Chinooks, Sentry, BAE 146 or something entirely more shadowy? :E

[Sunfish]

There appears to be a spotter in Malta who keeps taking photos of military aircraft every day as they go about their business.

I understand that the Libyan Air Force is still active.

If you think it necessary, could one of you please email the website and tell him to stop posting images, or at least delay them for a few days? They won't listen to me.

Libyan Air Force moving to Malta??? - Page 3 - The Diecast Aviation Web Site and Forum

[XV277]

Sunfish,

More than one spotter/website. I suspect all his christamses have come at once and OPSEC is not high on his thoughts.

[Politely_amused]

Libya: personal account of RAF pilot who took part in SAS rescue mission - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8363641/Libya-personal-account-of-RAF-pilot-who-took-part-in-SAS-rescue-mission.html)

Good article. Well done chaps, good to see your efforts recognised showing such a calm and professional attitude.