Libyan punchouts: true or myth?

[stepwilk]

I've read on the Web several reports of two instances of Libyan AF crews punching out of their aircraft and letting them augur in rather than following orders to attack rebels. But I haven't seen a word about this in the mainstream press, and I should think they'd be fascinated by this unprecedented action.

Does this mean the original reports are urban legends?

[Squirrel 41]

Protest isn't unprecedented - there were some cases during Op MUSKETEER - Suez in '56, the most famous of which was a Canberra pilot pulling up the gear before takeoff IIRC.

S41

[stepwilk]

Wow, good for him.

[Pontius Navigator]

Stepwilk, I found the following item below. The pprune thread was based on a CNN report which, as you can see below probably originated from a
the Reuters in Algiers.

The Reuters report is based on Libya's Quryna newspaper which in turn quotes a source at the Benghazi air base. The sources names the pilots.

As the report originates from the 'rebel' side it may or may not be true. Either way the report might encourage other Libyan aircrew to jump or certainly create dissention in the Libyan leadership causing alarm and confusion even if ultimately untrue.

Libya crew abort bombing mission on Benghazi: report

ALGIERS (Reuters) – A Libyan air force plane crashed near the eastern city of Benghazi after its crew bailed out because they refused to carry out orders to bomb the city, Libya's Quryna newspaper cited a military source as saying.

Quryna's online version quoted the source, a colonel at an air base near Benghazi, as saying captain Attia Abdel Salem al Abdali and his number two Ali Omar Gaddafi bailed out of the Russian-made Sukhoi-22 plane and parachuted to earth.

The aircraft, which took off from Tripoli, came down near the city of Ajdabiya, 160 km (100 miles) south-west of Benghazi, the newspaper said.
Benghazi and most of eastern Libya has not been under central control since an uprising last week against the rule of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

In a televised speech on Tuesday night, Gaddafi threatened violence against groups who were defying his rule. Benghazi-based Quryna is Libya's most reliable media outlet. It was owned by a media group linked to Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam but since Tripoli lost control over Benghazi it has begun to report openly on events in the city and further afield.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Having once used Martin-Baker's finest, I have to say I would find a less drastic way if at all possible.

But good skills if they did and got away with it - in all senses.

Sven

[mr fish]

just a thought,

is it possibe to abandon a fast jet WITHOUT engaging the seat?

[Sven Sixtoo]

Depends on which seat.

On a M-B Mk4 (or earlier), pulling the manual override disconnected you from the seat itself. If you then jettisoned the canopy, got the speed down to something workable, rolled inverted and fell out, once you were clear of the aircraft you could pull the ripcord in the old-fashioned way.

On the Mk10 like I used, there was no ripcord, the manual override was an alternate route to fire the parachute drogue gun, which went through the canopy and deployed the drogue to haul you brutally out of the aircraft. Better off using the main gun.

And God knows what the Russian seats (some of which were very good in primary mode) did as a backup.

Sven

[Green Flash]

Getting the canopy off might be a challenge, especially as many escape systems rely on the seat initiation explosively blowing the canopy (either the whole frame and glazing or an MDC hole). Maybe some early jets might allow manual baleout but nowadays most emergency departures involve rocketry.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Green Flash, you are mostly correct, but the rocketry (certainly on M-B seats) is initiated by a pull cord (heavy duty steel cable) about 4 ft long with one end screwed to the cockpit floor and the other end attached to the firing pin of the rocket pack, which is otherwise independent of all the other clever stuff on the seat. So the gun takes you up the rail and as you get near but not to the top the rocket pack fires up and boosts you to about 300 ft (I know, the view of the ground accelerating away from you as the parachute streams out below you is truly mind-bending).

Sven

[wiggy]

You'd really, really be chancing your arm trying a manual bale out of a fast jet, a "simple" ejection would IMHO be less risky but even so as anyone who has used Martin-Baker's finest will testify it is a very violent event, with sometimes sadly unforseen consequences, and you haven't got a reserve chute. Given that I'd have to agree with:

I would find a less drastic way if at all possible.



Then again, desperate times........

[Green Flash]

Sven, thanks, as you are one who has ridden the pyrotechnical furniture I bow most humbly before you!

It might even have been worth the Libyan lads trying to put it down on a road, if avbl? Mind you, I agree with wiggys last words.

[Tashengurt]

Wouldn't the Malta option or similar be preferable to baling out to land back in a country where you may be a hero or you may be asked where your nice shiney aircraft has gone?
Is range an issue here or are we thinking that perhaps someone's now being a bit miserly with the fuel to prevent any further 'defections'?

[Pontius Navigator]

Tash, unless they flew directly to Malta I don't think they could have gone via Benghazi or whereever. Fuel is certainly an issue. May be Nav kit is also an issue. The Mirage will have a prioper kit whereas the Su-22 may well have a more limited fit for an austere training/GA role.

I must admit to feeling that the story might just be 'rebel' propaganda.

[Tankertrashnav]

Wow, good for him.


Stepwilk - am I right in assuming that the "him" you refer to is the RAF Canberra pilot referred to in post 2, not the Libyan guy referred to in post 1? Clarification would be appreciated?

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, he is a cousin, forgive him as he knows not what.

[Al R]

What happened to the Canberra pilot? Did he claim he was making a political statement, or did he think quickly and fudge it as an accident and get clobbered for incompetence instead? He'd probably get off with less if it was the latter?

[Wrathmonk]

Al R

According to this article (clicky (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,809045,00.html)) dismissed from the service plus 1 year jail time.

[PhamousPhotographer]

According to this article (clicky (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,809045,00.html)) dismissed from the service plus 1 year jail time.
As in the Dennis R Kenyon, rotary display wizard? St Angelo airshow 2003 or '04 - or '05? Superb flying. S'cuse the thread drift.

Ph.

[Tocsin]

The answer is in PPRuNe itself - http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/297140-dennis-r-kenyon-suez-canberra-bloke-later-well-known-helicopter-ace.html

Hope that helps!

[PhamousPhotographer]

TYVM Tocsin. Whether conscience or finger trouble it was certainly a life-changing moment for him.

[Al R]

Cheers Wrathers. I have been reading up on the the Aouzou Strip conflict - seemingly, the Libyan Air Force refused to fly against the French at that time.

[stepwilk]

Stepwilk - am I right in assuming that the "him" you refer to is the RAF Canberra pilot referred to in post 2, not the Libyan guy referred to in post 1? Clarification would be appreciated?

That'd be a rog. Canberra guy.

[Tankertrashnav]

Well, as the guy's case has been well discussed since the original post, it would appear that far from being either a traitor or a fearless fighter for principle (depending on your viewpoint) he was actually just trying to cover up his incompetence.

[Trackmaster]

The most amusing story I have seen so far concerns the Libyan Air Force helicopter pilot who "ejected himself into the sea"
We could discuss meat slicers, but that would be uncalled for.